Replies

1. 
   hulkster | Nov 24, 2006 11:55pm | #1

   I have been thinking of using this product myself for a project. Attached here is the latest price list in Canadian dollars that I received from them. Depending on where you live, shipping may be prohibitive. I am also considering this product http://www.greenkrete.com/. Higher R value supposedly and no pouring concrete involved.

   
2. 
   caseyr | Nov 25, 2006 01:38am | #2

   Faswall is a similar product in that they are also made with processed wood chips and cement. The Faswall blocks are considerably shorter than the Durisol, if I remember correctly, the Faswall are 16" long while the Duriol, I believe, are 60" long. The Durisol blocks may come in more widths, however, with the Faswall being only 11" wide. I am considering Faswall because a plant near Corvallis, OR, has licensed the process which means that I can probably pick them up rather than having to have them shipped.

   There are, of course, several other ICF products which utilize an insulating material (typically polystyrene granules) encased in cement such as Rastra and TechBlock (plus a couple of others that I don't have on the tip of fingers).

   I consider the R ratings of all of those that I have checked out as being somewhat inflated. Faswall utilizes insulating bats within the cavities to boost the R ratings. I haven't checked Durisol to see if they do the same. With a 2" bat inserted into the cavities, they claim an R rating of 24. However, 4.5 of this is from "thermal mass allowance", which is fine if you are always cyclig around your desired indoor temperature setting of perhaps 68 to 72 deg. F, but otherwise probably won't do you much good. The TechBlock R rating appears to be much more inflated than this.

3. 
   IdahoDon | Nov 25, 2006 04:08am | #3

   From their website:

   "The Durisol material has an R-value of 1.75 per inch. This means that all Wall Forms regardless of thickness have a basic R-value of R-8.2."

   We currently use ARXX which provides a much higher level of insulation (4-1/2" @ R-6.6 per inch), does not allow water vapor through (for the most part) and is pretty user friendly.  I can't imagine the energy benefits of using a product that only produces a mediocre level of insulation.

   Much of what they claim are installation hazards of typical ICFs are inflated if not outright misleading. 

   Finally, I peaked at an installation photo with a guy cutting a block with a dimond blade in a skillsaw and lost interest.  ARXX goes up with nothing more than a simple hand saw, fiberglass tape, spray foam, big nylon ties for horizontals, and some pre-bent wire clips for keeping the verticle blocks together--all much more user friendly than cutting (and lifting) lightweight concrete.

   Maybe I'm missing the big picture?  :-)

1. 
   Glenny | Nov 25, 2006 09:35pm | #4

   What intrigues me is the re-cycled aspect of their product. The fact that you don't have to use low slump concrete is pretty cool too. The added benefit of the Durisol to me is that the plant is less than an hour from my home.

   It's a little daunting when you start too look around at all the ICF's out there. There are ton's of manufactures of them and they all appear to make great products. Every one of the links provided above has something about the product that makes it attractive. Some of them even have floor systems that look fantastic.

   So... The question is, which one do you choose? This type of product is not that new, so why don't I see the builders in my area of Ontario using this technology more?

   I know I'm going to be using one of these products, It just seem crazy why more people aren't.

   -Glenny

1. 
   IdahoDon | Nov 26, 2006 07:04pm | #6

   The fact that you don't have to use low slump concrete is pretty cool too.

   With ARXX 6" to 10" thick walls we use a 5" slump and normal 3/4" agregate, just like a normal concrete wall.  This is another of the misleading benefits that has a thread of truth so it sounds convincing.  The thread of truth is that the thinner walls (4" and somewhat with the 6") do benefit from a thinner mix.

   As to what system to use, to us our choice is based on reliability, performance, ease of use and affordability.

   The 5 years I've been building with ARXX we've never had a major malfunction. 

   The ARXX alignment/bracing system is easy to set up and is stout enough to handle anything we'll do with it.  The other systems don't usually have a rentable alignment setup.

   As for performance, we can argue the R-value of styrofoam or the thermal mass benefit, but the fact remains that in our cold climates (8,000 ft in Wyoming) a 2,500 sqft ARXX house can be heated/cooled for well under $1,000 a year.

   It's as easy to work with as any, but the new addition of nylon ties and the vericle wire clips makes ARXX easier to put together than any other ICF, although there are probably some that are going this route.

   At least in the rocky mountain states ARXX appears to be pretty dominant--for a reason.

   Best of luck with whichever system you choose.  :-) 

   Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

2. 
   ronbudgell | Nov 26, 2006 08:04pm | #7

   Glenny,

   I first built with ICF's 12 years ago and have used five or six different systems now. I live in an ICF house I completed (as much as any carpenter's house is ever completed) last December.

   I think that if you are comparing the foam form monolithic wall systems, there is just about no difference between one system and another once they are installed. The differences between one and another are plusses and minusses for the installation - not the house. Ten years after your house is built no one will know or care what those differences were and your house will still be making payments on itself with energy savings over a wooden house.

   Buy by price, availability and by your judgement of the abilities of the installer. Before you choose an installer, look at a couple of his jobs. You can see whether the walls are flat from a hundred yards away. You can probably see if there are any bulges or lumps from that distance too. You only get one chance to do it right.

   I chose Logix ICF. The advantages were price, an extra half inch of foam compared to most other products and very little obstruction to concrete flow inside the forms. The disadvantages were that they are a bit slower to install than a block like Arxx or Amvic and can float apart during a pour if you get too enthusiastic rodding the concrete.

   Generally, there is more waste with the unitary block systems than with a separable, reversible system like Integra-Spec, but the offcuts don't get thrown out, they go into the attic before the cellulose is blown in. Offcuts aren't a complete waste, they are just expensive attic insulation.

   And there's one more thing I have to say to anyone thinking about a new house: You have to design in a path for the house to expand and change. You have to give people some options in the future because you can't foresee how the way that people use the house will change.

   Ron

    

1. 
   Glenny | Nov 27, 2006 07:23pm | #8

   Thanks for the input guys.

   I am not new to building, I am a trim and cabinet guy for 20 years now. I am new to the whole foundation and concrete thing. This is not something I am going to do myself, I will hire the appropriate people to do the job.

   You all have great points, and I thank you for them. I think like allot of building materials, different areas of the country, or in what country, there will be some products used more than others. We all have our favorites, and could argue the merits of them all day.

   I think Ron hit the nail. Ten years down the road, the result is the same. I just want a solid, energy efficient, well built home. ICF's appear to give that. It's funny, I've looked at six different homes built this way, all with different ICF's and none of the homeowners knew what brand the ICF's were. They were just happy with the result.

   Ron, further to your comment about adaptability in design, we are using allot of the "Open-Built " concepts that Ted Benson talks of. I do not expect moving ever, and the design has to change with our lifestyle, and needs.

   Thanks again guys,

   Glenny

1. 
   ronbudgell | Nov 28, 2006 02:18am | #10

   Glenny,

   Being in the cabinet business, you should have a good eye for plumb, level, straight and flat.

   It is easy to make ICF walls all of these. It is also easy to make ICF walls none of these. Select your installer carefully.

   And please tell us how you are getting along with it.

   Ron

2. 
   Glenny | Nov 28, 2006 06:53pm | #11

   We are just now in the design/planning/costing phase of this project. My wife and I are in no real hurry to complete this home, which is really a departure from any work I've ever done. I'm not sure how to handle a project with no deadline. I'm sure most of you will agree, It's not the norm.

   I'd like to include as many foreword thinking, smart building products, and systems as I can afford to. And for those I cannot afford, I'd like to build some adaptability for them in the future. One goal is to debunk the myth that to build a Eco-friendly, efficient, smart home costs a whole lot more than a stick frame home. I know it will cost more initially, but not as much as most home owners think. Plus when you factor in long term return on investment, especially in overall efficiencies, the cost gap should close. It should prove to be an interesting project.

   I am sure along this road I will have many a questions to pose to the FH sounding board. And yes I will keep you all abreast of the progress.

   Thanks again guy's.....Gotta go run 2000 feet of custom 12" base for a restoration I'm working on.....The deadline is tight on this one.....

   -Glenny

2. 
   caseyr | Nov 26, 2006 02:14am | #5

   My resistance to building with standard polystyrene ICFs is because I am in an area with a high density of carpenter ants and also an area with a high propensity for wildfires. I think there is only one polystyrene block manufacturer that incorporates borates to fend off insects burrowing through the polystyrene, and it isn't ARXX (I have had carpenter ants burrow into and chew up fiberglass bat insulation). I checked with the ARXX website and they make no mention of fire resistance, so I assume that a wildfire would make quick work of the ICFs. Faswall uses an insulating bat in the core channels to provide additional insulation. With a 2" bat (and factoring out the "themal mass factor") the R value of the wall is just slightly less than 20. I read almost everything on the ARXX website and I didn't see a detailed specification of their R rating. I did see something which said something about an "effective" R rating of R40-50, which to me would indicate a highly inflated thermal mass factor rating.

4. 
   Talisker2 | Nov 27, 2006 11:57pm | #9

   I haven't  heard of Durisol ICFs but there are a lot of manufactures out there.  I took a weekend intro to ICF's from the local Reward distributer a few years ago when they were the ECO distributer at that time.  Recently I came across a (to me) a new company called TF the vertical ICF http://www.tfsystem.com/  Their idea is interesting as you assemble vertical panels instead of setting blocks.  Has anyone had experience with this product? 

   Jim