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I am having a home built by a semi-custom builder with a great reputation. I have done a fair amount of contracting work, but my current job doesn’t allow for me to be my own g.c. and do much of the work. Wondering if there is any reference book or body of advice as to what to look for as I do my daily inspections of the sub’s work? They are about halfway through the rough framing. Thanks, and enjoy MLK day.
Eric in Richmond
Replies
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One of the simplified code check books would provide a checklist of minimum standards. Or are you asking for how to distingish quality work from just doing the minimum? -David
*Watch the carpenter. If he holds the hammer right up next to the head when pounding a 16d sinker, he hasn't been at it very long.Watch the electrician. If he connects wires with a bowknot, he doesn't really understand all that much about what he's doing.Watch the painter. If he does the wall, then the trim, then the wall again, then the trim, then the wall, ad infinitum, he probably hasn't had all that much experience cutting in.Watch the plumber. If he uses a piece of pvc stuck into a piece of copper, and wrapped with electric tape for the cold supply side for the kitchen sink, chances are, you'll be seeing a leak somewhere in the future.Watch the architect. If half or more of the drawings you recieve are done in crayon, it behooves you to get a second opinion on that 17 angle roof stuck on the rancho deluxe home.Watch the engineers. If they encourage you to use all your 2x4 scraps to make that bay window/breakfast nook combo stick to the side of the house like a bubble, then you may want to get a second opinion from someone like the carpenter, whether that piece of aluminum downspout really is supposed to be structural.
*Leave them alone.I mean it.If something's really wrong with it, then ask a question, and do it HUMBLY you nosy know it all.(Just kidding of course.)Better yet, look over their shoulders a lot. Entertain them with your knowledge, which they'll surely be appreciative of, hanging on every other word. Ask lots of questions, just to see if they know the correct answers. Tell them that's not the way you saw Norm do it on "This Old House". Remember, you've got the experts on the internet to back you up.This will help you get a better product.Or?
*I'm kinda with Mad Dog here. If you hired a good builder, the main thing you should worry about is the relationship between you and him. Doing daily "inspections" won't help that relationship.The builder is one who should be watching the subs. If he has experience, he can notice things 10 times quicker than you would. Certainly, it's your house, and you should be able to walk through it when you want to. But calling them "daily inspections" is likely to cause friction between you and the people working there.
*I agree with everyone's thoughts here, for the most part. I do feel that daily inspections are a must because a lot can happen in one day that and the sooner you catch something, the better. The inspections can be done after everyone has left, if you feel you'll hurt the relationship between you and the builder.You can also show up at odd times once in a while. It's your money and you have to live with the results....The builder may also be on other jobs through out the day or the week....therefore, you may catch something he doesn't. If you like to be involved, then hire the builder who doesn't mind your involvement. If you don't care to be involved, then hire the builder you trust. If the latter, I'd still do inspections. We're gc'ing our full-house renovation....the contractors know we're there every day looking around. We have to be there since we're the gcs. We don't always have something to say...much of the time things go very well.
*You need to have a good relationship with your builder but I would definitely look over the work. I think the best way though is to have a very detailed set of plans with lots of material and construction specifications. That way you are not telling the builder you think something wasn't done proper, you just have to compare it to the agreed contract/plans/specs. If something was not built to spec. it should not be a problem to get it fixed. Now if there is no spec. you could have a problem if the builder thinks it is OK.I know that since this is finehomebuilding that for the most part the contractors here care about quality and are probably on the higher end of the scale but for the majority it is all about speed and keeping the cost down by taking short cuts and using cheap materials. I went and walked a new housing tract a few weeks ago by my house and the quality of construction is terrible and everything is built to the absolute min. of code. These guys are trying to squeeze out every last penny. Anything that is hidden or won't break during the warranty period is just left alone.You are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, you should be able to inspect the job any time you want. Work it out with your builder.
*Bring em some hot soup, cookies etc to get to their hearts through their stomachs. These are the guys doing the work. Your relationship with the builder is something you should already have worked out. I'm telling you man, it's the small details that add up. And no store bought stuff neither.....homemade.
*Bribe "em with food to get good work. With a smile and compliments when things are done right you'll have a happy crew and tney will want to do their best for you. Then if you find something that you can't accept they'll understand better that you really care about things and aren't just a pain-in-the-ass!
*Been gaining a little weight Frenchy? ha ha ha, I know I have.
*DeeVee and Sean: I like your approach. You are right - it is my money, they are doing more than just my home, and we have made some changes which may be missed either on the drawings or in the sub's mind. I have already found an exterior sliding door not centered, and an interior door head at 6'8" rather than 8'. My builder knows from our negotiation and preconstruction sessions that I know a decent amount about what they will be doing, and also knows I couldn't stay away from the site if I wanted to. What I am looking for are the little things to catch -blocking for towel bars, missing shims under the girders, twisted studs, etc. I have heard of some owners marking problems with red marker or orange spray paint. Definitely not looking to be a pain - just a happy home buyer, willing to give a great reference.
*If you do find stuff that you feel is incorrect or you that have a question about- only discuss this with your builder.Don't put the subs or his employees in the middle. They won't appreciate your "meddling." Most sub contractors will take directions from the contractor better than they will from the homeowner.It is your builders' responsibility to communicate your wishes to the subs and put together a product that will satisfy you, your contract with him, and his need to build a house in a timely manner at a reasonable profit.Terry
*I agree totally with TLE. Whatever you do, DON'T tell the guys on the job when you find something you think is wrong. You hired the GC, the GC hired them. You tell him, he tells them, the problem gets solved. You tell the guys on the job directly and you're gonna have more ill will on that job than you ever imagined. Treat the folks with dirt under their fingernails with nothing but respect and you'll be amazed at how much respect they'll show you. Start finding fault with their work and they'll start finding fault with you. What comes around goes around. Building is a profession. No matter how much you think you might know about it, do you really think you know what a pro knows? Do you stand there looking over the shoulder of your auto mechanic, offering advice when you think he made a mistake? Do you order a meal at a restaurant, then go watch the chef prepare it, offering him advice? Do you second guess your lawyer, your doctor, your accountant? "Daily inspections" give me a break.
*I can't imagine why any builder would get his nose out of joint if a homeowner stopped by the house every day to look things over. There's a big difference though between checking to make sure things are going according to plan and bugging the workers. I am perfectly happy if an owner comes by every day. Seems there's always some little detail I would like to clear up with them anyway. This business about not showing up until your house is done so you don't insult the tradesmen is a bunch of B.S. to put it mildly!
*Come on Jim, how can you compare a $10 meal to a house that costs a few hundred thousand or more, an entire life savings and a big junk of your money every month for the next 30 years. If the people building my house had to go through the amount of schooling and training and where supervised and under the same amount of scrutiny and cared about there performance/reputation and used the latest and greatest materials and methods as my doctor then I would feel better and probably wouldn't worry as much. Of course the house would cost 4 times as much :) Its not like the doctor just goes down to his local city hall, pays a few bucks, shows proof of insurance and becomes a doctor that can freely operate on you. Now lawyers are a totally different ball game :)Seriously though, you need to address all your concerns to your builder not the subs. Anything that is not built to plan/spec should be changed no questions asked. If it is a grey area then you will have to work it out some way.I do know why the honest contractors get so upset but if you look at what is going on it is understandable.Sean
*"Come on Jim, how can you compare a $10 meal to a house that costs a few hundred thousand or more, an entire life savings and a big junk of your money every month for the next 30 years."I think they only differ in scale, the principle is the same. The average person wouldn't know good framing from bad if they saw it. Or how flat the top of a stem wall should be, or how smooth the top of a footing. Any more than they would know a dash of salt from a carefully measured t-spoon. What they care about is the end result - square, straight, parallel, structurally sound - the soup tastes good.We have a system of checks and balances - plan review before you get a building permit, a series of inspections to ensure workmanship meets industry standards. Anybody who asks a bunch of people online for advice about what he should be looking for during his daily inspections shouldn't be conducting them.I fully encourage all of my customers to look at my work as carefully as they like and they have every right to question what I do and why. But if you hire a professional to build something for you, then second guess everything they do, you're wasting your money, you could do it yourself.
*Kind of surprising how many nerves I touched here. Seems to me if there wasn't a need to stop by and check, I wouldn't have already found a header at the wrong height, a door roughed in way off the mark, etc. I do intend to work through my buider if I notice any mistakes, accidental or intentional. I think it is a bit naive to think that in a market that has paper thin margins, tough deadlines, multiple jobsites and oftentimes inferior product to work with, it somehow questions the sub's integrity and professionalism to be interested in what they are doing. I have spent the last ten years living with the 'hidden' mistakes, shortcuts or oversights of a pre-existing home, and would like to minimize them in what is my family's largest investment to date. Jim, if you can forgive my apparent ignorance in asking such a question, I can forgive your assessment of my skill and knowledge level.
*"I think they only differ in scale, the principle is the same."I don't know about the principle being the same but the risk involved doesn't even compare. When is the last time you got a bad meal, doesn't happen to often. Or the cook only gave you half of what you ordered but you paid for more. Or the meal was served all wrong and they refused to make it right. Or the meal was all wrong and the cook was just no where to be found. Or you prepaid for a meal and the cook just never came back. Or you ordered your meal and it took weeks longer then expected. Whens the last time you had to sue someone over a bad meal. Doesn't even compare in real life.How many times does the heart surgeon just get up and leave with your chest cracked open and...... Ok maybe I am getting carried away :)"The average person wouldn't know good framing from bad if they saw it. Or how flat the top of a stem wall should be, or how smooth the top of a footing. Any more than they would know a dash of salt from a carefully measured t-spoon. What they care about is the end result - square, straight, parallel, structurally sound - the soup tastes good."There are lots of times when what you see on the outside no matter how good isn't built right and could have very serious results. "We have a system of checks and balances - plan review before you get a building permit, a series of inspections to ensure workmanship meets industry standards."As far as I know the building department does not check for quality construction. Only that the structure meets min. codes. If you built a tiled shower using green board and mastic would it pass inspection? As long as the pan holds water then its OK here. If a wall is out of plumb an inch or say a bedroom is out of square a foot does the inspector make you fix it? Inspectors could care less about quality. They also don't catch lots of code violations either. What about the times someone changes something after the inspection is done? Building something to code and building something that is quality construction that uses the proper methods and materials is two different situations. Plus the building dept. will take absolutely no responsibility if your house is built wrong so why should I trust them? What about if you have to put down some cement board for tile underlayment. Does the building dept. check that? Or the paint quality, or the cabinet installation, or the flooring etc.... There's lots of parts of house construction that the building dept. doesn't even look at because they only check items that deal with life/safety. Any one who thinks the building department is making sure your GC builds a quality house is in lala land. "Anybody who asks a bunch of people online for advice about what he should be looking for during his daily inspections shouldn't be conducting them."He already found a few things wrong so it sounds like he is doing OK. If he never said anything would the GC correct it. Who knows. What if the house was completely done, what would he do then?"I fully encourage all of my customers to look at my work as carefully as they like and they have every right to question what I do and why."Sounds good to me." But if you hire a professional to build something for you, then second guess everything they do, you're wasting your money, you could do it yourself. "I don't agree. What if you only have time to check the construction but not build it yourself?The problem is that anybody can get in the game and there are so many so called contractors that are a bunch of hacks that have just plain ripped people off or have shoddy construction and there is not much recourse for the owner to take against the contractor etc... Lots of people are concerned, and rightly so.Do a search about bad contractors and there are hords of websites full of tens of thousands of people that have received junk. Do a search on some of the big tract builders and you will never buy a tract home in your life. I have many family members that are builders/tradesman and worked summers since I was 11 until I graduated from college with them so I have spent plenty of time on the front lines so there is no way I wouldn't check the work being done on my house. It's a shame the industry is the way it is, gives the good guys a huge up hill battle.
*Eric,If you and your GC are in sync on the level of quality expected, and you respect the GC's role as the direct employer of the subs, I'd think that he'd be O.K. with you double checking the work. If you catch mistakes, like a header at the wrong height, the GC should be thankful 'cuz you've saved him the trouble and expense of fixing it later.As far as quality goes, if you have building experience, you probably know what level of quality you can expect in the construction of a semi-custom home (i.e., for the amount of money you're paying).What can drive a GC (or sub) nuts is a client who wants caviar at a ground beef price. So think about that...you pay more for excellence than for code minimums (both in material and labor). What do you have a right to expect? If you see a slightly warped stud, so what? If the electrical panel has only one unused breaker space, well, that meets national code and is what you ought to expect on a semi-custom home. And so on.Best of luck on the build.Cliff
*No forgiving required Eric. These boards are great mirrors that help us all understand how to communicate more clearly. No offense intended, and none taken. Good luck with your project.
*JimThat was very well put, "these boards are mirrors", I like that.EricIt's all about respect. One way is not to question a procedure but to ask about is as if you're trying to learn. As for putting marks on mistakes: if you think this will win you favor and be received warmly I'd get bullet proof glass in your car before your daily inspections. Suggesting things such as this is a major red flag of a homeowner that just doesn't understand that this is someones hard work you're touching. Respect it and I'll respect you. I'm just trying to let you know what you're up against on what you think of as: your job site. It may be your house but I, and others here, live on these jobsites. Think of it, as me, in your office, how would you like me to mark your mistakes.Good luckTerry
*I think terry makes an excellent point about this being the subs office. Really puts the situation in perspective. Jim, if I remember correctly you rough frame in the Denver area of CO. How is the market there, is it still strong and growing or has it slowed down some?
*Worst case I've ever seen/heard:Visiting a friend who lives down in Atlanta. A house was going up across the street from him. Twice a day, everyday...at lunch and right after he got out of work, the prospective owner would show up.He'd prance around the site with a full set of plans and two tapes (long and short) and measure everything. Everything. He'd actually interrupt construction and ask one of the laborer's to hold the other end of his tape.He pissed off the subs sooooo bad. He actually pointed out a window's rought opening that was something like 90 1/8" from the corner of the house intstead of 90" like it was spec's on the plans. Seriously.He measured mortar joints in the brickwork.He measured the spacing between nails on the sheathing and would point out half-inch variances in spacing.He crowed like a rooster, "This is gonna be the best damn house ever built." "They're not gonna screw me on this one."My friend told me this guy was so confident he was gettig a top-notch house that he negotiated away the builder's warranty in exchange for the builder knocking a few hundred dollars off the cost of the house.Gosh, he was a pain to the subs.The subs took great joy in screwing this guy wherever they could. Something here. Something there. He got burned big time. He could not figure out why, after about 18 months, his house started to fall apart. Leaks, squeeky floors, loose doors, a front porch that separated from the house, separating trim...What a pitiful mess for all involved. And yet another piece of disposable crap built for a few hundred $K.Eric, There's nothing wrong with you protecting your investment. How you go about it is key.Good luck with your project.
*I really hope no one takes joy in something like this happening. No matter how much of a pain someone is, is it really justified to ruin some ones multi 100 thousand dollar investment. This is just another example of why the general public has no trust or respect for people in the construction industry. A true professional would handle the situation while still turning out a quality product.
*Better question,If you are investing multi 100 thousands of dollars in building the home, is it really worth it to risk that investment by being a total asshole to the people building it for you ?It's going to happen. No matter how much you or anyone else preaches about the ethics of it happening, people who swing hammers are by and large human beings. If you treat them like shit, drive them like slaves, try to get something for nothing out of them, pick pick pick at nits nits nits, constantly.... you are risking all those dollars that you are investing in this building... because like it or not, those human beings are going to repond to that kind of treatment the way human beings respond to that kind of treatment. End of story.
*Go to the build site every dayGive lots of attention to use of treated wood where water falls.I have seen professions put a doorbell in the middle of the main entrance foyer wall, where most people will put a picture or mirror.Also near the end - the carpenters even on a $500k house will try to use non galvanized nails on the outside trim then 8 months later you get rust bleed thru. Go to the site every day.
*You guys trust your doctors? Are you nuts? Yes, I research and question all people who work for me. That's the way I know whether they are competent or not or trying to cheat me. My lawyer was great - actually an honest man who had my best interests in mind. Most of the time, I have to argue with doctors to get the right treatment and remind them of my drug allergies each and every time so they don't kill me, even tho they are written down right on my chart in bold red ink. Doesn't matter what the profession is, there are cheats, incompetents, and good craftsmen in them all. The buyer has to figure out what you've got. Caveat emptor.Mary
*Tounge in cheek comments, but can't resist. i builder with a great reputation1. leave them alone or DIY case history: a church member (who I know well, once upon a time "made suggestions" to architect and contractor on a church addition (both quit), ended up 'working second job' for 4 months and spending $100K of own money/material to finish the job. - plenty of previous comments to support this. PS: that member never again "made suggestions".i done a fair amount of contracting work2. ? and you need a reference book? -- how come no one has commented on these oxymoronic phrases in the original post? i halfway through the rough framing3. if you didn't check the foundation & footing, all is lost -- Or, were the daily inspection previous to the post the cause of subs' resentment and need to seek " body of advice" 4. you sure came to the right place to get lots of opinions. In the end, since it's your money and your house, only your (and wife's) opinion matters.
*Eric asked for a reference book. There is one. I have a Minispec book of construction specifications that is put out by a home inspection outfit. It details what to look for...what should be used...what is acceptable...what is not.Also Nahb has a list of minimum standards of acceptability...crack widths allowed...out of levels allowed...Also...all materials have associations that publish installation procedures...Like for Cedar siding...They spec where to put what type of nail... almost all items that make up a home have readily available instructions and installation sheets. Eric... Now that I think about this...how did you ever GC anything not knowing what I just noted above!?near the stream getting a good chuckle of the day,aj
*We're having a log home built and we are the GCs (inColorado). We happen to have hired a wonderful crew to put up the logs and frame the roof, but we still go there every day mostly just to marvel at their progress! I think our builder (who is on the crew and there everyday) likes the fact that we are so involved and there every day. We caught a window that was framed wrong, mistakes happen, that was easy to correct because it was caught early. We've also been there to deal with things that were just plain wrong on paper or wouldn't look that good in real life. We've worked out some creative solutions that we were all satisfied with. If we weren't there every day, it would have been harder for everyone. We mostly go in the mornings before work so its not like we are there bugging them, but they always seem glad to see us (more on that below) when we show up during regular work hours.We also shovel the snow for them and have even set up scaffolding (its our scaffolding that they are using) for them just to be nice. And now the kicker....since he gave us the combo to his trailer, we leave boxes of chocolate, homemade goodies, and other treats in there for them. I think we scored major bonus points with those! We must have a builder like calvin or Frenchy on our job! LOL! It also may explain why they are always glad to see us!I can't imagine not going to the jobsite every day. I agree that its how you do it that counts. A little chocolate goes a long way! :-)
*Still a bit surprised by the amount of indignation or insult I am perceiving in some of the responses. I was just curious! I do think you can contract with a highly reputable builder and be somewhat at the mercy of the subs they utilize, so there is a risk there that needs managing. Secondly, a fair amount of contracting does not infer that I have ever acted as a GC, or built a house from the ground up. On the contrary, I was primarily a painting, roofing and small construction one-man show. I am not above thinking I have a lot to learn (ala a reference book), but also feel I can represent and demand quality where it is not present. And you can be sure I have been visiting the site from the day it was cleared. I agree with everyone who has said it is all in how the message is delivered, and to whom, and not if it should be delivered. The fact that I read FH and these posts should be a signal that I am interested in honing my skills and my knowledge, and not that I have all this wisdom just waiting to be shared. I am almost hesitant to post again - difference of opinion is one thing, but some of the responses have been a bit brutal. Maybe I just don't have enough tough, contractor skin.
*That's what it's all about! I myself couldn't envision having a house built and not wanting to watch it go up.Nice job.
*Remember, yours is the only opinion that really counts. Was also "beat up on" a few times the first time I posted here, but survived. Speaking of which (not to start anything of course!), but has Gabe (so laid back & helpful these days) been on Ritalin this last year <:)
*eric... i just read thru all of these.. and one of your comments jumped out..<>That 's all true.. but why didn't you hire someone you trusted... you didn't.. your preconceived notions say so..you hired a commodity builder , not a home builder.. your constant talk of the "subs this " and the "subs " that points out that the GC is NOT the builder..... my guess... the GC is not on the job...my other guess.. you are trying to maximize your house dollar by supervision rather than by design and specification...good luck..but , if you wanted better , you should have hired better...starting with your design, specifications, contract & contractor...trying to influence the action after the fact is not the most effective way to get what you wanted...b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Eric, sounds to me like you're on the right track. It is your cash on the line and if you aren't disrupting the process or stepping on anyones toes, I think you have every right to observe. Moving a door is much easier before the sidng is up and the paint is on. You headed off a potential problem and saved the GC some cash there. No need to feel guilty! People will care a little more if they know that someone else does too.
*Eric,you don't have to defend your statements here.There are some people who just love to pick apart what other people post.I see nothing wrong with the way you are following up on your concerns and your investment.If you see something on your homesite that doesn't seem right and you want to ask others for their opinions, this is a good site for that.You do have to be an intelligent consumer these days, and all the more so when you're spending several thousand dollars. I look at other people's work on construction sites everyday and I think that quality of craftsmanship falls under the typical bell curve, with a small but equal number of trades people being either very very good or bad, but most falling in the middle.I think you already know that if you approach your tradespeople with respect and courtesy you'll get better performance.Have a good build.Barry
*All the people I know in any building trade have at least one horror story about customer troubles. So please take the critics lightly. A homowner can go a long way to making a job a nightmare or a joy. A few tips:1)Plan ahead. Make sure that the plans represent what you realy want. A good designer should be able to create a 3D environment in a PC that allows you to walk through your virtual house. Solving flow, appearance or preferance problems at this stage is cheap.2) Make sure that your dreams are transfered to the designer and drawn in. Telling the GC half way in that the back two bedrooms will be a wine cellar and a home office makes for trouble if you want features built in. Things such as switch placement and counter height are not set in stone. If you have a preference make sure it is known and that this information gets to the people doing the work. Otherwise you will get the best guess of the workman.3) Get a GC you realy trust. Experience with local inspectors, tradesmen and conditions is a plus.4) Unless otherwise specified in the plans expect things to be built to a workmanlike code minimum. If you want more or better you will have to ask and pay for it. 5) Don't scrimp. Making a few upgrades when the walls are open pays. A few extra receptacles, especially around a home office, are cheap insurance. If you garden a lot an extra hose bib and WP receptacle stategically placed can make a difference. Pay a bit more to have extra blocking placed.6) Treat the workmen well. While coffee, dounuts and a blazing salamander greeting them each morning is a bit much little things make big impressions. You don't need to bribe them but simple gestures can win over the people and inspire them to do thier very best even if the CC or thier boss is bucking for quick and dirty.7) Dropping in to do a walk through shows you care. One good way to gain credability and show concern is to have the GC hire you as the clean-up crew. Going there each evening and sweeping up is a great way to get a feel for how a house feels and notice errors or changes without annoying the help. 8) If you have questions bring them up to the GC. 9) One of the best ways to spot errors is to step back and look. Good work will almost always look neat and workmanlike at the end of the day if not while in progress.Hope this helps.
*If you think that contractors have tough skin, I have to wonder if you understand what the brutal responses have been about. If you hired a bad builder, you are screwed, no matter how many site inspections you make. If you have a good builder, get the most out of him and his subs. You will do this by showing your enthusiasm for the project and the work that they are doing. PDF's response indicates the kind of positive attitude that you should shoot for. It will be much easier to point out deficiencies when you have a positive relationship and the workers will be glad to make you happy. Your attitude will be the controlling factor, not anything else. And none of us really know what that is. Good luck and enjoy. If you are not having fun, something is wrong.
*Work with your builder. As a general contractor, your comment about "daily inspections," with its focus on problems, rather than communication, makes me apprehensive about you as an outcome-oriented client.
*Eric,Howdy. Its all about timing. You can spend as much time as you want inspecting, making notes and asking questions. When you are seen doing this is crucial.Familiarity breeds contempt. Be pro active to your own benefit. And don't wimp out 'cause there's some "brutality." Its the nature of the work.My point is: Have scheduled visits and meetings. And do all your "inspecting" on your own time.And you'll be comfortable and self assured. So will the workers. Regards,Dan-O
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I am having a home built by a semi-custom builder with a great reputation. I have done a fair amount of contracting work, but my current job doesn't allow for me to be my own g.c. and do much of the work. Wondering if there is any reference book or body of advice as to what to look for as I do my daily inspections of the sub's work? They are about halfway through the rough framing. Thanks, and enjoy MLK day.
Eric in Richmond