Help with kitchen counter construction
jako17
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Could anyone help with this problem. Weare building a kitchen ,the client has purchased a Belfast sink.This has to be under mounted on 3sides with the front exposed.We have suggested solid surface or granite .However their budget dictates laminate I plan on making it of 3/4 fir ply using solvent contact adhesive with laminate on the top and for 6 inches round the cut out on the underside.The edging has to be cherry .How should I secure the cherry and protect it and do you think the technique will work? I’ve explained Iwon’t guarantee it’s longevity,but Iwould really appreciate any suggestions.
Replies
I think yer up the perverbial crik. There is no way to protect from moisture getting in over time. I`ve seen laminate countertops seperating above the dishwasher from the steam released during dry cycle. Moisture will eventually work its way in and wreak havoc. Tell them this is going to happen and explain how much more it will cost in the long run. Either they go with a drop in sink or they spend the money on solid surface.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
They have to understand that this laminate countertop is a temporary top until they can afford the right kind to go with the sink.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
i agree they should spend the money for a solid surface top but,if they insist you should use a wood other than cherry,such as cedar,mahogany or teak it may not match but the wood will last longer the teak needs no finishing the others could be oiled or epoxied and you could epoxy the sink to the underside of the counter if you had to. but if the sink is heavy i would try and support it from below or strenthen the counter top around it
I've been thinking more about this and figure that if I had to do something like this, I'd try top impregnate the substrate - you mentioned fir plywood - with thin epoxy along the edge abutting the sink. Gitrot cures very slowly and is thin viscosity so it will soak way into the wood fibres before setting. There are probably others too. Seal the edges of the fir there, sand smooth, and then apply the laminate. Wood so sealed with epoxy should not absorbe water or swell and rot or separate.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
How about a tile top?
Or....how about a small section of good counter top material.......something more in line with an undermount sink.......then have the p-lam on each side extending the run?
I just read somewhere about a waterproof/resistant fill in piece to rim the undermount sinks...and fill the water logged space of the p-lam counter.
try a search for that..then maybe that product could be used/rigged in some way to work with your 3 sided cut out.
Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........
.......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........
Jako>>> "I plan on making it of 3/4 fir ply using solvent contact adhesive with laminate on the top and for 6 inches round the cut out on the underside.The edging has to be cherry ."
What does that mean?
I'm guessing two layers of fir ply surrounding the sink cutout, with cherry edging on the front edge of the counter, and the three sides of the sink cutout? You are thinking fir ply is a better base than counter blanks?
I would forget about using any type of plywood for the base, that is ridiculous, and you have enough problems. If you are concerned about using med density particleboard for the base, would Advantech sheeting work? I haven't used it for awhile, and I really don't know if it would mill smooth enough for this. It probably would, and it would provide an extra bit of moisture protection for the substrate. Any adhesion issues? That I don't know, do a test piece. On the other hand, I am thinking that by the time the substrate becomes an issue your top is toast anyhow, so just use counter blanks.
In any case, you have a couple of problems. Moisture entering where the cherry meets the sink and the laminate, and moisture attacking the finish of the cherry. Longevity of the top is not a problem, you have explained the issue to the client.
I would advise attaching the cherry to the edge before lamming the top, that will minimize the moisture issue there. Then seal the bottom, where the cherry meets the substrate, as well as you can. The caulking from the cherry to the sink should make this a non-issue, but why not. Epoxy? Sure, or several coats of spar varnish, which wouldn't make a bad finish for the cherry as well.
How to attach the cherry? Glue only, glue and spline, glue and brads, all or any of the above?
I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over this one, they should get fairly good service out of this top.
"I would advise attaching the cherry to the edge before lamming the top, that will minimize the moisture issue there."
This means that the lam would cover the wood edge at the top and expose the joint completely. The exposed joint would then be along a vertical surface but an exposed edge is an exposed edge. Eventually (not very long) the seam would fail and the P-lam will delaminate along the sink perimeter where there is a lot of wetness and wiping.
What?
The joint would be horizontal, yours would be vertical, whatever.
Nice call on the 1" edge and the MDF, keep it up.
If I remember correctly a few years ago some one was selling some expensive "kits" for undermount sinks in laminate tops.
But I think that you can do the samething. I see another problem that no one has mentioned. What are you planning to do with the exposed edge of the countertop at the sink. That would be a hard place to cover with the laminate.
Get some 6" wide pieces of solid surface material like Corian. Corian can be sold in small sections and if you can't get it from a local fabricator there is an outfit that sells it over the internet. In fact Dupont reconizes and directs people there for "hobby" use.
Make up 3 pieces attach it to the counter top base with biscuits and epoxy. Make it so that it overlaps the sink by 1/2" (might have to make it a little more and use wider pieces because of the radius in the corners).
Then add the laminate and edging. After you install it over the sink then use a bearing pilot bit to trim it and the laminate to be flush with the sink edges.
You can get something that matches the sink color and a nice constrasting color.
UGH!
The same edging detail (as explained in a previous post) used on the "front" edge of the CT would be the same detail as on the "sink" edges.
Regardless of what type of bit you trim the laminate with, if you laminate last, the seam is still there - exposed. Not good. "Protect" this seam by butting up the solid wood edging to it and gluing as I wrote earlier.
DO NOT have an overhang around the sink greater than 3/8". Otherwise it will be difficult to keep clean. You/ the Client will not want to have to have a special step to clean this edge/ overhang. Keeping it around 1/4" will allow for easy cleaning without any special care.
Biscuits or some type of spline is a good point.
1. Explain to them that you have never done this before and not from lack of experiance but because it has rarely been called for and you have always pusuaded the customer to go a different route. Now the liability is their's. You may even want to state it's "potential for failure over time" nicely in the Change Order. You are using a Change Order, right?
2. Do not use fur ply for the substrate. It is not perfectly smooth so the laminate will not bond well and the undulations may telgraph through. MDF or some type of dead smooth sheet goods are better at the same $ or cheaper. 24" cabinets have the structure to support these types of material. Be sure to use the thicker laminate intended for horizontal surfaces.
3. Apply the laminate first and then the edge material. The material should be a minimum of 1" wide (face to laminate joint dimension). Be sure you get sqeeze out at the laminate joint. This will seal the joint. Try to do most of the wood finish application before you install the edge. Only do a thin topcoat after the installation is complete and be sure to tape off the laminate.
4. Except for teak I don't think it really matters what wood you use as long as it is a hardwood - slower water absorbsion if the finish or joint fails. Don't use oak. When it gets wet it will oxidize black. The finish should also be able to handle a lot of wear. Mineral oil or danish finish oils are not appropriate.
5. Use a marine glue to apply the wood edge. We have used resorcenol(sp?). two part epoxy. Hey, maybe this would be another use for PL Premium. Hhmmm....
6. Do not apply laminate to the underside of the countertop. It serves no purpose. The undermount sink should be seamed/ silicone caulked along the wood edge at about 1/4" - 3/8" back from the edge.
Keep in mind the combination of material and use is against you. Go slow and be thorough. Be sure to charge for the added time and effort. The cost might be the catalyst to their mind changing.
Jako
If you want fir and particelboard this might fit your needs.
Read thru the sales hype though.
"Premium Western Fir by Sierra Pine, is a premium western fir particleboard panel preferred by counter top manufacturers nationally. A fir panel offers superb dimensional stability and is naturally more moisture resistant than other species. Uniform density and finely
textured surface fines ensure the highest quality panel."
Mike
It's O.k. to think out of the box, Just don't walk off of the plank!
Edited 12/3/2002 4:56:53 PM ET by Mike S