Hi gang.
I’m about to do something that I think will be a very good move for my business. I’ve got a really heavy work load looming for the fall. I’ve decided that if I am to do all of the projects I’d like to do and keep everybody on schedule, then I’m going to need some more help.
I currently have three guys working for me. Two are pretty good carps. One is my laborer who is coming along nicely on the learning curve. They all have pretty good attitudes most days and I feel our relationship is mutually beneficial. It’s a pretty calm and comfortable culture to work in most days.
But my two ‘pretty good carps’…… I just feel like they’ve either progressed as far as they’re capable of progressing….. or they’ve progressed as far as they really want to progress. Either way, I need more from them, am willing to compensate them for ‘more’, but can’t seem to get ‘more’ from them. For now anyway, they’re topped out.
So I ran an ad. And I think I found the right guy. In fact, I may have found a guy that’s even better at framing than I am and he seems to have the right attitude as well. He seems to be capable of taking a leadership role and really taking some of my own personal load off my shoulders. He can do the intricate exterior trim details. He can handle the complicated roof cutting. He’s basically a ‘turn-key’ framer…. give him the plans and go.
We’ve discussed and agreed upon a very important detail. I do not, and will not, dump my crew in his lap and remove myself from the field entirely. He does not want the responsibility of running the crew by himself and is frustrated as everywhere he goes for work he finds that as soon as his employer figures out what he is capable of, they disappear and leave him flying solo. So we’re a pretty good match. I still want and need to pound nails, but need some help with my own personal work load. He is very capable, but says that if he wanted to run the show by himself, he’d start his own company (which he has had in the past).
So what’s the problem? I’m going to be completely honest and say that I’m a bit intimidated by the whole thing. I worry about what my role will be. And I worry about how the guys will respond to a ‘new guy’ telling them what to do. I figure if I am on site all the time, and show the ‘new guy’ unwavering support when he directs my crew, sooner than later the guys will fall in line. My gut tells me this is the right thing for my business. This guy is what I consider to be a premium employee (if it works out) and I’m going to be offering him premium compensation. But the numbers work, if the situation works.
But yet I still hesitate? Hmmmm. Ego? Quite possibly. Maybe I’m just thinking out loud here, but I love using you guys as a sounding board. I’ve read that the best thing you can do for your business is hire the very best guys you can find and treat them well. I think bringing in this guy is the right decision. It will speed up production and allow high production to continue on those few days a month where I need to do the devil’s work in estimating, picking up plans, banking, etc.
What say you all?
Replies
I'm a little underwhelmed by your existing two guys. If the new guy is that good, then you will need guys to work under him, either the existing ones or new ones. Either way, there needs to be one guy running the work onsite, and it isn't going to be you, so plan on adjusting the crew until you have the new big dog and a couple of hands under him that jump when he says jump.
The main problem might be you not stepping on his toes, but still backing him up in the way he wants. A lot of guys like you describe want no client contact and don't want to do takeoffs or orders. They want everything onsite ready to go so they can work. If you have difficult cash flow moments they really don't want to know about that either.
Actually Dave, there will two guys running the work onsite. He and myself. It's an arrangement we both want and agree upon. My ex-boss and I worked under this arrangement in harmony quite a bit when we'd frame some bigger projects. I will be running the show 99% of the time, but when I'm bogged down in the details there will be someone else to step in and keep the guys hustling. Or we'll be able to effectively run two phases of the frame simultaneously that require a lead man type at the helm...... exterior trim and roof framing for instance.
There really aren't any take-offs to be done. Those are done by the GC's and lumber salesmen. There's scheduling and ordering of the drops, but that will still be done by me. As far as dealing with 'clients' most are GC's and I will still be the face they talk to. But if an important concept needs to be conveyed and I am unavailable, there will be someone there who can effectively comprehend and execute whatever it is being discussed.
You may be underwhelmed with my guys. But I'll tell you what, they're pretty darn good compared to most of what's available out there. They work very hard for me and give me a good effort with minimal baggage interfering in our relationship. I've been through somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 different "framers" since starting my business about 4 years ago. And I've only had one new hire this past year. The two hardest parts of running a framing crew in my market is scheduling..... and finding good help. The work is there. I can do the work. I can run the business. It's those other two things that can kill you.
Have yet to have a cash flow problem. I maintain a $50,000 working capital in the company account and arrange my payment schedules on projects in a fair but strict manner.
I appreciate your feedback. It's making me look at a few things the should be looked at before following through with this arrangement.
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Everything you're saying makes sense. I don't know how the framing business works for you as the owner, but most GCs seem to feel that the BIG step is going from working on the job every day to not working on the job at all. Turning production over to a lead guy. Putting down the tools.
It sounds like you will be able to work well in a part-time production mode. I would look at the chain of command on the site, then. What if New Guy tells #1 Hand to cut a bunch of blocks and install them like so. Then you walk on and want it done differently. Stuff like that can get everyone grumbling.... too many chiefs, etc.
Another good post Dave, thanks.
I guess that's why Blue says that a framing company really isn't or ever will be a true business. I've yet to see a guy successfully leave the field FT and run the business from the truck or office. In framing, I mean. First, there's just not enough 'off-site' work to be done to justify leaving the field full time and eating up 'full-time' worth of payroll. Second, there just doesn't seem to be enough money around in the framing business to support such a position. I see alot of guys hire a heavy hitter, slip away from the field, coast for a year or so, and then have the wheels fall off. In fact, that's what happened with myself and my ex-boss in time.
My best guess is that you'd need to be able to manage, outfit, support, and find work for about four crews of four to support leaving the field full time. I'll be entirely honest and tell you that I'm no where near ready for that sort of responsibility.
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>>>there's just not enough 'off-site' work to be done to justify leaving the field full time and eating up 'full-time' worth of payroll. Second, there just doesn't seem to be enough money around in the framing business to support such a position.
Yeah there is. You take the $50K, buy a nice boat, spend 2-3 hours a day getting your jobs started and your customers invoiced, then hit the dock around 11 AM, pull up a deck chair, and pop a cold one! If they call you on your cell, shut down the props and turn on the ghetto blaster with the pre-recorded framing sounds and take the call.
Just kidding. Is your plan to morph into a GC eventually?
I do think that I will someday morph into a GC, but this new hire honestly isn't a concious step in that direction. I'm really not interested or ready to become a GC yet. But I do think it'll happen someday. I'd like to try a spec house when the market heals up some. And I'd also like to start purchasing some rental units fairly soon. All the while using the framing to pay the bills with the real estate stuff being the 'retirement' fund.
But who knows what tomorrow will bring.View Image
When I was 18 I worked as a contract draftsman, for a guy who had started off himself, doing the same.
He was quite successful, having boomed his business out so that he was employing about 30 draftsman/engineers, most all farmed out, like me, to the big corporations that supplemented their engineering departments with "contract" (read: temps) draftsmen, designers, and engineers. This was way back before the dawn of CAD, electronic calculators, or anything like that.
But he used to chat with me, his youngest guy, each week when we would stop by for our checks, after work. Preach a little about his philosophy.
He had this theory that I called, "you only have two hands." Early on, he found out that someone putting lines on paper can only make only what those two hands, driven by the one brain, can make. But, someone with a talent for sales, hiring good people, and managing those good people, can make a whole lot more.
As this theory can be applied to residential construction, I see it working for GCs, and those sub trades where specialties require tradesmen with a higher batch of skillsets. The mechanical trades are the best example . . . the plumbing and heating guys, the electrical contractors, and carpentry specialists at the highest levels, such as architectural millwork.
If you want to make this leap forward, you'll have to resolve to work hard at those skills you need in both human resources and sales and marketing. It sounds like you know that already, but to be really successful, you'll want to hire and develop people that might always seem smarter and more capable than you.
but to be really successful, you'll want to hire and develop people that might always seem smarter and more capable than you.
How hard can that be? LOL. Seriously though, thanks for the encouragement Gene.View Image
Diesel
I think you've got the hardest and most important part figured already and that's being able to communicate and express your thoughts somewhat clearly, or at least you do that here at BT. Maintain this kind of commo with the new guy and your crew and it should work out well. Hopefully your crew will tell you what the think of the new guy and your plan. Maybe clue them in on the plan before hand? Can the current crew handle being told that they won't cut it as leads (said a little more tactfully than that)?
You are going to be onsite for the most part, make it a point to be there for the first few weeks. Don't treat him any different than the other guys. Don't force him on your guys, let them accept him at their own rate.
For the most part this few weeks will show your guys that this newbie is for real. Kind of a showing of skills. A feeling out period.
After the few weeks the new pecking order will have implemented itself. Your guys will see that the newbie can be trusted as the go to guy when you are not there.
And if all goes well he will become one of the guys, making life easier for everyone.
Grandpa used to say "know your role and shut your hole." Blunt but to the point.
I always welcomed better carpenters than myself on the job, I wouldn't know half the stuff I know without them. I hope your guys think this way as well.
Good luck, I hope it works well for your growing company.
"Know your role, and shut your hole"
Me thinks I'd get along just fine with Grandpa.View Image
"I'm going to be completely honest and say that I'm a bit intimidated by the whole thing. I worry about what my role will be. And I worry about how the guys will respond to a 'new guy' telling them what to do."
Make the first thirty (sixty?) days probationary. Make sure the guy understands that it isn't in case he is incompetent, it is just to make sure the new concept and the new employee fit with the old.
And he might have second thoughts after thirty or sixty days.
So at the end of the period, either side can back out...no hard feelings.
Really, though, it sounds like a good set up to me. I think you should go for it (and that advice is worth wait you paid!).
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Just a thought about your existing guys and their motivation. Sadly some guys who are capable of leading the pack fall back when there is a big dog capable of running the show.
Understandably one should do there best at all times but most times following isn't so bad. Has you presence and willingness to except there speed backed them down a bit.
People generally rise to the level of expectations when those expectations are clear but not much beyond without some kinda of motivation.
Will your new guy kick them up a notch or will your style and crew manage to assimilate your new guy.
Just a thought.
Interesting and worthy comments jagwah, thank you.
Here's my take on it.... some guys, capable or not, don't want to take the bull by the horns. I've been trying really hard to 'groom' one of my existing guys for just this sort of role. The problem is, that I'm just afraid that my own guys have been together too long for the dynamic of their relationship to change. I'm talking about my two 'pretty good carps'.
The problem with them seems to be that, while being ultra competitive with each other, neither is really willing to step up and take the leadership role. Too much 'people pleasing' going on. In a nutshell, they've been equals for a couple years now. And at the end of the day, they'd rather be 'friends' and lack the balls to tell each other when they're screwing up or what to do next. And I can't see everything or be everywhere all the time.
Also, in some regards, I really feel that one of my guys, in particular, is truly 'topped out'. I've really tried to get him to come along with the exterior trim. But the attention to detail just isn't there. He's my bull. He'll bend over and knock layout together all day everyday. As far a dumb work goes..... he's a production monster. But he can't seem to shift gears and slow down and pay attention when the need arises. He's the type of guy you want around when you're doing demo..... but you better be there to supervise or the whole house'll be gone.
You following me?View Image
It's pretty hard for a new employee to come right in on an established crew and be a lead from the start.
You plan to have all 5 of you on the same site? That's a lot of framers at once unless the house has a very large footprint. If you do plan on that, I'd still think you'll kind of morph into two two-man crews, with you as the 5th, the lead-lead. If that's what you expect, start the new hire and your laborer out as a team. There won't be any pecking order issues with them, right? Then explain to the other two that you believe they are ready to assume more responsibility and start treating THEM as a "crew". See how they do. They might surprise you, or they might wobble a little, in which case, they will then welcome the knowledge of the new lead - they will probably even seek his advice.
Very tricky stuff, adding a new lead to an established crew. It'll take time and there will be some fallout sooner or later. Like most leadership challenges it will require clear communication and a willingness by all parties to make it work. But don't hesitate to nip it in the bud when the first signs of resentment or jelousy pop up. Those feelings are real. They are natural. Aknowledge them and talk about them.
You'll do fine.
Who's the cat that won't cop out, when there's danger all about?
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Thanks for the feedback Jim.
It's pretty hard for a new employee to come right in on an established crew and be a lead from the start.
That's pretty much what I was afraid of. I wonder if maybe I'd be better suited to not make a big deal out of this at all. Not introduce the thought of another 'boss' to the guys at all. Maybe just throw the guy in the mix, pair him up with somebody, and let nature take it's course. If this guy can lead (as he says he can) it will either happen naturally or not happen at all.
I like you're idea about pairing up and that's pretty much how we work now and how it will work in the future if things go as planned. However, I really need to seperate my current two guys. I posted to Dave about them. Specifically, that neither is really capable of leading the other. They've been equals for so long to when one takes the reins the other gets resentful. Then the guy with the reins drops them in favor of harmony. It sounds like a soap opera.... I know.... but that's what managing people is like. In an ideal world, things would be different. But in the real world people have feelings and emotions.... rational or not. So I'm thinking I take one, new guy takes the other, and laborer keeps the stock flowing and broom moving. Whatddya think?
I'm re-reading all of this and kinda shaking my head. I thinking I'm making the current situation with my existing crew sound more dire than it really is. I've got good guys. I'm very happy with them. But I need and want more from my 'crew' as a whole. View Image
Diesel,
Are you sure you're not a 60 some yr old GC, where I live? Sounds just like my old boss talking.
He and I had the setup you are considering, with the new hire. Only difference was 3 other fairly experienced carpenters to manage. We would often run as two crews. Usually him with 2 and me with one. They were the big production, and we were the detail crew. It was very effective.
As the houses became larger, he was forced into more of a site manager. At that point, his interest in the jobs really faded. He was unhappy, not doing the actual physical work. Hated the other side of it. His presence became less and less, untill one day I awoke to find myself , in charge of most everything. Just a warning. These things can grow faster than you can imagine.
Other than the newest hire, I was the youngest guy in the company, although I had alot more years with him. The guys, at times, had some issues, with this, and my personal ,management style. Make sure that the new guy has the will to back up his position. It can be daunting. At times, I felt our productivity, under my leadership, didn't quite measure up. He never said anything, mostly this was all just my impression. Make sure he is aware of your expectations. Talk to him. Let him know, when he is doing well, and when not. I didn't really have that direction.
The pressure was a large part of the reason that I left. I was being compensated very well, but the comunication was lacking. I finally felt that seeing, I was essentially the boss, I may as well be the boss. So the buck could actually stop here. The few areas of the jobs that weren't under my control were bothering me, and I had no recourse. Some underperforming subs, that needed to be straightened out or cut loose, but that's another story.
I would try the guy out, but as other have said, don't bring him in as the new leader. It will either happen, or it won't. As a side, I've seen lots of guys come in saying they could build the world, without a plan, and couldn't build a dog house. Talk is cheap. Put him on site, and see if he can fill the boots, you need filled.
Good luck!
Brudoggie
Good post, but I honestly can't tell whether you're supportive of the idea or against it. Maybe you're just pointing out some of the pro's and con's and potential pitfalls. I guess I should stress that I really don't have any intention or desire to not strap on the belt every morning. At least at this point in my life.
And right now, I'm not looking to take on larger projects. It's just that I've finally built up a decent little group of GC's (repeat customers) who give me the sort of jobs I want at the right prices. I'd like to be able to continue to keep them all happy and on schedule while still pursuing new leads/contacts and I'm not so sure I can do that with my current arrangement.
The thing I remember loving about working together with my old boss was just having another truly qualified head to bounce things off of or get a different perspective from. Or to just take the ball and run when you're simply 'having one of those days'.
An incident last winter comes to mind. I had the flu one week. We were at a fairly critical point in a big frame. I would sleep in the truck for a couple hours, get up and check on the guys, answer some questions, and then go back and pass out into feverish sleep in the cab of the truck again. It sucked. But I didn't want to take hours from the guys. I knew they could do the work, but that they would just need a little help here and there. Right now I find it really difficult to do things like keep a Dr.'s appointment, or get the truck serviced, or take a vacation, or.... get sick. ;)View Image
Diesel,
Sorry, my mind works in a very random way at times.
I'd try him out, and see what happens.
Be aware. Even though you will be in charge, most of the time. When you are not on site, and he is supposed to take the lead, all of the sudden he IS running a crew. Seems like he wasn't interested in that.
Make sure that he's ok with that aspect.
My experience differs, in that we were a GC company, not a sub. So maybe the potetial pitfalls are less in you situation. I found my self to be even the bosses boss.
He would be onsite, working some small portion of the job, usually alone. I had to deal with all the communication, with the subs, our guys, and very often, the homeowner. Not because it was set up that way. It just sort of developed on it's own.
Make sure he understands exactly, what his job description, and resposibilities will be. And be aware that growth can expand these responsibilities rather quickly.
Give it a shot. If nothing else, you may gain another good carpenter. We all know how easy those are to find!!
Brudoggie
I would say it is entirely a chemistry thing -- you and the new guy, the new guy and the other people on your crew. And only time will answer those questions.
My take would be to hire the guy as just another crew member, rather than designating him as your second in command from the onset.Run this way for a couple of months -- maybe one whole job. That will give the guy a chance to demonstrate his skills (carpentry and people) not only to you, but the other guys on the crew.
I'm probably wrong, but there's something in between the lines here that tells me this guy's people skills are not quite up to his carpentry skills.
You've always struck me as a great guy and a great leader; you may not be able to teach this guy anything about framing, but I am guessing you may be able to teach him something about leadership.
Just adding him to he crew, rather than immediately designating him as the second banana, may give you a better chance to do that.
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Thank you. That was a really great post and I think that's exactly the course of action I should probably take with all of this. Just add him to the crew. The leadership either will or will not happen naturally. In the meantime from my current crew's perspective, he's just another guy who knows a heck of a lot about framing.
I'm not going anywhere. (Off-site, I mean). So I see no reason why it can't work that way. If the leadership role never develops, or the chemistry doesn't work, we can always make adjustments or move on.
Thanks gang. I appreciate the feedback.View Image
Thanks for the thoughts guys. It's exactly what I was hoping for. I don't want this to turn into one of those threads where the dead horse is beaten for days on end and I bore everyone half to death describing every little dynamic of my crew. I hope that doesn't sound rude. But I think I've made my decision on a course of action.... thanks to you guys.
-BrianView Image
Ya I gotcha, good point.
Now on this other thing beating a dead horse? Are you saying you might need a hi-jack 'cause I can do that for ya.
Something like... most new bosses thrown into an old pot of workers do better if there conservative and like bush, what ya think?
Yer welcome
Hijack away Jagwah! We could all use a break about now. ;)View Image
OK, I will hijack this one a little bit. I am thinking about getting a headcutter. My use will be mostly 12 x 12 pilings and such on elevated beach house foundations. Mostly square cuts but some notching. Now I freehand them with the chainsaw and it works ok but I cant really let anyone else make those cuts. Do you think this is the right tool for this job? Were you the one talking about the base being a little small? Would that be a problem on these straight cut or only bevel cuts? Could I add on a larger plywood sub base and use it that way? Thanks
Hi ccal.
For square cuts on flat stock, I think the Bigfoot headcutter is just fine right out of the box. It's the steeper (above a 7 or 8 pitch) where I think the size of the table gets to be a bit small to support the saw. In a square cut, the weight of the chainsaw is well centered over the base. In a bevel cut, the weight of the saw is off to the side and I feel it needs a bigger base to compensate for this.
So to answer your question, I think it might be the perfect tool for your particular job.View Image
How'd the talk go?
Come on. It's 7:32 and we're all waiting. I've been following this all along quietly and now we need answers.
Headstrong, I'll take on anyone!
LOL...... you guys are great.
Sorry about not keeping you guys informed, but he called me on Friday and asked me if we could reschedule for Monday evening.
Sorry fellas...... gotta sit tight for a couple more days.View Image
OK OK! But don't forget us.
Headstrong, I'll take on anyone!
Okay, it's Monday at 10 pm...
So, what's going on? You two chuggin' coffee and chewing both fat and donuts?
Hurry up!!! {G}
Don K. EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Betcha the guy either postponed again, didn't show, or decided to stay where he was at.
The final answer is maybe. And that's definate.
http://www.hay98.com/
No, he did come by this evening. But then I got wrapped up in Monday Night Football and forgot about y'all. He seems like a really good guy. And he definitely knows his stuff. We talked shop for awhile. Laughed about knuckleheads in the business and exchanged a few war stories.
Personality-wise, I like him. And I think we could work together. You never know for sure, but I did get a good vibe.
In the end, we got down to the bottom line. I offered him about $5 less than what he is currently making.... but that's to start. I told him that his wages would be open for review after two weeks after we got a chance to sniff each other's azzes a bit more. It's still a good deal as he's currently got a 75min commute, each way, to where his current work is. If he worked for me, his commute would be closer to 45min each way. And he wouldn't be flying solo like he currently is.
So I didn't bang her on the first date. So that means one of two things:
a. maybe playing hard to get...... ie... the other half a saw-buck
b. the 'keepers' never give it up on the first date.
He's gonna mull it over and get back to me this week. Told him I'd like an answer by the weekend, but I'm willing to give it a shot if he is.View Image
Very cool. I hope this works out.
The final answer is maybe. And that's definate.
http://www.hay98.com/
That is a nice deal. If he turns you down, then you didn't want him anyway. The whole point was both of you advancing.
jt8
'Grandpa used to say "know your role and shut your hole." ' --Stilletto
Well it's Sunday before the football games and we haven't heard anything. Did he ever get back to you? Let us know how you made out.
Headstrong, I'll take on anyone!
I haven't heard from him since Monday evening. Dunno, maybe that's my answer. Might be time to start pursueing some of the other guys who responded to the ad. I've got time, we'll see what shakes out. Thanks for thinking of me.View Image
update?Bawitdaba da bang da bang diggy, diggy, diggy shake the boogie said up jump the boogie.
Hopefully it's a regional difference, but around here it's hard to convince a lead carpenter to jump ship for less money, at least if they are any good. We even tell the young carps to never settle for less than they're currently making, even during the slower winter months. Someone is always knee deep in alligators and short handed on a project and will pay for talent.
Good luck and keep looking--there's always someone just as good as the last guy.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I agree Don. Jumping ships has always been about money, unless the ship that was jumped off was dead in the water.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
"Jumping ships has always been about money..."
I have to disagree there, Blue. Lots of reasons to switch other than dollars. Working conditions, type of work, the feeling that you just don't fit in with the gang, or one or two members even...sometimes you just plain need a change.
What keeps good people is a good organization that values their help and makes them feel part of the team. At least that's been my experience. Who's the cat that won't cop out, when there's danger all about?
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
It may not be about $$$
but by offering him less, 5$ is a LOT less, you will be making $$$ an issue...
Times are tuff and he needs a change.
You make the decision harder by lowballing him...
Offer him a competitive salary.
If he is worth it keep him, if not say good bye or renegotiate...
don't play the $$$ game with someone you need for an important position.
if this guy is a keeper and you are lowballing him, he is gonna be "looking" the whole time cause he has to make a living too...
You may like to think that your guys hang with you 8-10 hours a day because of your winning smile but NO ONE would be there without the $$$.
5 buck an hour is gonna put a HUGE financial burden on him til you decide to pony-up the rest...
or can him...
you think he will perform well if he can't figure out how he's gonna eat???
#$&%(*$#
Please excuse our mess....
Tagline under reconstruction...
Life is too short. The universe is too big. Be kind to someone. In the end, love is all that matters.
-Luka
No offense T, but that was spoken just like someone who's been an employee his whole life and never tried to run a business before.
I didn't "low-ball" him Tony. I offered him what the position is worth. Yeah, he's making $5 an hour more right now. But also remember that in his current situation he is running a crew full time without any direct supervision. That's the part of his job he told me he wanted to get away from. He didn't want the responsibility any more. $25/hr to start, as a crew member (not leader) is pretty darn good money.View Image
well you didn't say he was makin REAL $$$ at his old job....
If you got him an EZ smart you could pay him finish carpenters rate...
:)
#$&%(*$#
Please excuse our mess....
Tagline under reconstruction...
Life is too short. The universe is too big. Be kind to someone. In the end, love is all that matters.
-Luka
If I get him an EZ-Smart then I'll need to get one for myself too. Can't afford two right now. ;)
Hey, I hear what you're saying. I pay my guys the best I can. Never been called cheap before. And when a job goes exceptionally well, I bonus them. I sleep well at night knowing that I do the best I can for my guys. But to be fair Tony, there's weeks where $30/hr less personal taxes would look pretty good as my own paycheck. I'd think that over-extending myself and making a promise to this guy that maybe I couldn't keep would be far worse then offering him the $25 (that I know I can swing) right from the start. It'd be a shame to pull him away from his current job only to find that I couldn't make the number work when the lean winter months come along.
You gotta remember.... that $5/hr that you're worried about 'making or breaking' him has another side to it. Mine. View Image
$25/hr to start, as a crew member (not leader) is pretty darn good money.
that is a good offer especially because the guy doesn't want to run a crew.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
I'll do it for $20 an hour, screw him. When can I start?
I'll start for 15.00 plus travel expenses!Who's the cat that won't cop out, when there's danger all about?
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
I did the Monday/Friday from SeaTac to the east coast for a while several years ago.
Remarkable how many weekly commuters there are...
"Hi my names Juan, & I will do it for $9.50!"
Hi Jim. I just replied to your email per your request. Now I'll try emailing you directly through the forum and see if it works any different. Lemme know how you make out.
-BrianView Image
Thanks. Got the one in response. Didn't get one through the forum. grrrrrrr...Who's the cat that won't cop out, when there's danger all about?
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
I think you forgot about us. It's been a while. Did you hire him? I'm guessing no or we would have heard. Let us know.
Headstrong, I'll take on anyone!
Nope. He decided to stay put. He told me he talked to his boss about leaving and his boss told him he'd make some changes to try and keep him happier. What cha gonna do.View Image
you mean I did my whole pay-the-man rant for nuthing???
shiiit we didn't even get to name callin'
Hope You find someone else.
BTW the Panasonic says hi...
Thanx again
#$&%(*$#
Please excuse our mess....
Tagline under reconstruction...
Life is too short. The universe is too big. Be kind to someone. In the end, love is all that matters.
-Luka
Update: He called back today and wants to start on Monday if possible. I'm pretty excited about some fresh faces on the crew. I've got another new guy starting tomorrow, seems like he's got the right attitude and about a year's worth of experience... I can work with that. But the guy starting on Monday seems to be a hot-sh1t framer and a nice guy as well. I parted ways with one of my long time 'good guys' on Monday and I've got a full boat of work so the timing is right on.
I'm really looking forward to the change and am excited about the increase in production that I think these changes will bring. I know I'm trading off some old stress for some new stress, but it looks good on paper any way. :)
We'll see how it all shakes out.View Image
Thanks for the update. I hope you didn't part ways on a bad note. I hope everything works out good for you. Good luck.
Headstrong, I'll take on anyone!
Congrats Diesel.
Just suck it up and set them loose. You can do it.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
You're right on the money Blue. It kills me, but I gotta do it.View Image
What Blue said - you're a good judge of character - you'll feel it when it's right. My life got a little simpler when I let go. Not everything will suit you, but you'll figure out which battles are worth fighting and which ones to walk away from. Good luck, dewd.Side note: Are you just getting busier in this so called building "slump"? I'm back to not returning phone calls again.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
For the past two weeks most of my phone calls have started with, "I'm really sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but......". I'll be pretty well caught up after today as I'm going to spend a little time doing office stuff and then running some errands. But if we don't keeping plugging away really hard I'll have a traffic jam of jobs all calling at the same time....... I'm really trying to avoid that, but it could still be inevitable.
Like I said before though...... I'm not complaining. I'll take this over the alternative, that's for sure!View Image
Congratulations! Let the next evolution of the business commence!
jt8
"Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
But we're not done beating the dead horse! ;)
Sounds like you're on the right track, so I'll just add my congradulations on the current evolution. When it works out, it will give you a lot more flexibility and IMHO improve the service you're giving your customers. You'll be free to line up upcoming jobs or increase the efficiency of the one you're working on.
By the by, aren't you about due for another major equipment purchase?
jt8
"Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success." --Albert Schweitzer
By the by, aren't you about due for another major equipment purchase?
Wha'd I miss? Such as.......?View Image
You've gotten a lot of great advice here to build your business and also stretch your current crew in good ways. One thing that wasn't mentioned, though I'm sure you are planning it, is to be crystal clear with the new guy about your change in thinking. In your initial discussion with him you indicated he would take a lead role. Now you are looking at him being "one of the guys" for starters. I think that is a very wise move, as long as expectations are clear all around.
And... absolutely get a copy of "First Break All the Rules". Although it is corporate-focused the truths are universal and it will make you a more effective leader.
By the by, aren't you about due for another major equipment purchase?
Wha'd I miss? Such as.......?
He11 if I know. From what you've gotten in the past, the new item is gonna be something that either speeds up what you're doing or something that expands what you can do.
Maybe you'll be able to tell me what it is after Saturday's meeting... or maybe in 30 days.jt8
'Grandpa used to say "know your role and shut your hole." ' --Stilletto
Sounds like you love your new toy, and you haven't even played with it yet. I learned this trick from buying dance schools. Just make the guy a regular shmo. Let him work with everyone else. You really need to figure out if he's your kind of carp or not. I can talk a pretty good line of B.S.. And I even believe most of it. Maybe he's the same way. See what you really got, then let him jell with the guys. I'd hate to pizz off three guys that stick with you through thick and thin for a guy that sweet talked ya for a little bit. When the time is right and he has actually become one of the guys then let him do a little leading, coax it along a little at a time. Your guys are less likely to resent you for springing a new daddy on them.
The final answer is maybe. And that's definate.
http://www.hay98.com/
Edited 9/27/2006 9:19 pm ET by Gunner
If the new guy can and will do what he claims you are a lucky man. You have found a guy with skills that knows what he wants and more importantly what he doesnt want. You seem to know that too. I like the idea mentioned earlier about the probationary period. Could be good for both of you. Just dont screw it up by getting too lazy. Just kidding about the lazy part but you know what I mean.
brian... good move, wether it works or not
i think your "pretty good carps" are pretty good guys and one way for this to work is to push the "security button"
this new guy is going to make your company more flexible, with greater potential for growth... better conditions for all down the line..
IE: as we get older and get past our first couple of years we stop thinking of all this as just temporary and start trhinking in terms of a career and a real business.. the best employees like seeing themselves as having a future and a career..
that's how i would subtley work the new guy in.. "this is part of how McCarthy Company is going to grow.. and we're all going to grow together"
also... you know i'm convinced we are on the edge of the cliff and we're going to have to be pretty flexible in the next couple of years.... i've never seen a decade go by with a major housing recession, and yet we've had nothing but an expanding sector since about '93... there are so many in the trades now that have never been thru a recession and they don't know how dog-eat-dog it gets
this new guy can help give you the flexibility to shift gears... and take advantage of changing circumstances
another thing .. with your military background , you can always fall back on SOP and basic leadership skills... how would the best sergents i knew handle this ? how would the best bosses i've worked for handle this ?
anudder ting... Blue has a couple of pretty good books he always recommends for becomming a better boss... maybe we can get him to reveal them one more time
precipiece Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, you are right. The first thing that I thought of when I read the original post is that Diesel should sprint to the store and pick up a copy of "First, Break All The Rules".
The Gallup organization studied 66,000 of the best companies to figure out what the best managers do. Their tendencies are revealed in this book. Not so surprisingly, some of the suggestions already posted are things the book might suggest.j
Diesel, don't give this one more thought. Just hire the guy on and find out what he'd good for. Then, let him do what he does best. You need the help, even if you don't need any help. You could never have too many good carpenters, unless you don't have enough work.
The worst thing that could happen is that you'll get the jobs done too fast. I always solved that by taking extended leaves of absences ( I'd hate to see the true number of hours that I've actually been on site over the last fifteen years). Your new guy is warning you that he doesn't want a crew dumped on him but he wouldn't probably balk if he knew you were taking three days off so the crew wouldn't miss a day.
You might even find out that the new guy is all talk. Someone already mentioned this and I've seen it happen at least fifty times.
If you pick up a copy of that book and read it, you'll know exactly why your current crew is "topped" out. The world's best managers know and appreciate their workers that are topped out and they don't try to make them into something that they don't want to be. Your new guy does not want to be a "lead". He wants to be a carpenter. I know exactly how he feels. For many years, I've said that I love carpentry but I hate the business of carpentry. I'm old enough now that I could hire onto any crew and let someone else run it, but I couldn't have done that in my twenty's, thirty's or fortys. I couldn't understand how anyone could be a decent carpenter and not want to run a crew. Now I know...with a little help from that book.
I would do exactly like Mike suggested. I'd introduce the new hire as a well seasoned framing expert that will give your company more flexibility and make it more desireable to GCs that want a little more production. By hiring this journeyman, you have the option of adding another apprentice. If the guy is any good, he'll be a good man to train a new hire, then another, then another...then another.
Understand that your biggest task will be to meld your philosophies. If they are close now, you'll do fine. If they are world's apart, it'll never work anyway.
Don't fret. If you hire the guy, you can always unhire him.
blue
jim... i finally broke down and ordered the book on Amazon tonite.. i'll let you know how it goesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
jim... i finally broke down and ordered the book on Amazon tonite.. i'll let you know how it goes
Lol! everyone that manages people should read it. I shoulda read it back in the early 80's. It would have significantly helped my disposition. My copy is out on loan and there are three people in line for it.
blue
Blue,
(and everyone else for that matter) thanks for the post. It was encouraging and informative. If it matters any, I actually bought and read "First Break All the Rules" last winter on your advice.
The thing that stuck with me the most from that book was to let my employees do what they do. And then decide whether or not 'what they do' works in my business model. I learned that I'm just beating my head against the wall trying to turn them all into clones of myself. But possibly it's time to dust that book off and read it again.
The guy is going to come to my house on Saturday. We're going to sit on my front porch and have a good long talk. Hopefully when he walks away from my front porch it will be to give his two weeks notice at his current job. And I'll be sure and let you all know how this situation progresses.
I know what you guys are saying about the potential for the guy being "all talk". I'm sure we've all seen that a time or two. As a matter of fact pretty much every Joe I meet on the street who finds out I'm a framer tells me that they "used to be a framer" too or that they "do a little framing". My expectations about the skill set I'm looking to hire were abundantly clear in my ad. It was also abundantly clear that I didn't need any more guys to carry wood or lean on brooms. We'll see how it goes.View Image
Diesel -
Good luck in the development, whichever way it works out.
One thing that kind of caught my attention in the post is a seeming change of attitude from some of the old post. I remember you praising the guys to high heaven, talking about getting them into the citizenship thing, etc. I felt like you guys were friends, good friends.
I didn't see anything real close to that in this post. Maybe time has taken it's toll, and/or your focus shifted; maybe I just misread some of the older posts. Maybe it was friendship of convenience.
I won't offer you any advise on that part of things because I've had some bad experiences mixing the two, but I will suggest that you consider the issue for what ever little it might be worth.
As far as this new guy, I'm skeptical. If he's that good, why is he where he is? Why is he still looking? You have some skills in evaluating people and know when there's bs around. Use those skills, don't deny them.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Hi Don, thanks for the post. I still love my guys dude. They're great guys. They're not perfect, and neither am I. But my business is finally starting to grow a little bit more. I'm starting to learn a little bit more about owning/running a business. The market is changing.
My business is forcing me to make a decision: sieze an opportunity for natural manageable growth or reign it back in and stick with my security blanket of the devil I know.
In a nutshell: I'm growing. The business is growing. My guys aren't. God knows I've tried to bring them along to fill this sort of role from within. But the motivation isn't there. They're happy being pretty good carps, making pretty good money, driving pretty good cars, and living in pretty good apartments. Whaddya gonna do?
Regarding the new guy: You asked why nobody else has snapped him up. They have. He's currently employed @ $30/hr. That's darn good bread for a framing carp here. It's he who is unhappy with his current situation with his employer... not the other way around. He's gotten to the point where he feels used as he wasn't hired to 'run' a crew and yet that's exactly what he does. Said his current boss just hands him the plans and an address. Not what he signed on for. That and he's commuting about 75 min each way for the work.
But you never know, right? The guy could be full of hot air. Or he might just be a prick to work with. Or he might be 'the answer'. But I won't know until I give it a shot.View Image
DP...
First of all, congrats on the business. If yours in anything like mine currently is, I know you must be feeling anxious as hell to capitalize on it...yet scared as hell your going to miss the opportunity or mess it up. At least that's how I feel as I'm experiencing a nice steady growth...
back to your post...I think you've been given great advice. I echo everyone's comments about bringing the new guy in as "one of the guys". At least make that the appearance of things to your existing crew. Who knows...maybe some new blood could trip a wire in one of your old crew and he could put it in another gear and "compete" with Mr New Guy. He might not be stepping up to your encouragement to become more of a leader as his role of being YOUR follower is so engrained in his head. this has nothing to do with you or how your leadership skills, only with him having a tough time identifying himself as anything else.
On my first framing crew, I worked with a couple of guys that sound a lot like your 2 "pretty good carps". One was pegged to lead our crew after our lead man was sent to run a new crew. It did not go well. These two guys who once had no problem working together now had a hard time with one of them being in charge. What fixed it was bringing in a brand new lead carp and relegating these two back to their original jobs as second bananas. Well, they didn't like Mr New Guy (there was nothing wrong with him other than he was Mr New Guy) and it ended up they kicked it into gear and when Mr New Guy quit a few months later, these two decided they could have one in charge of the other.
I'm rambling, but just thought I'd add my 2 cents. I've always found you to be very level headed and on top of things. Trust your gut. Make the decision and move forward. Look ahead 5 months from now and ask yourself what is the worst that could happen by doing this now?
Good Luck!knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
Politicians, like diapers, need to be changed often...and for the same reason. (bumber sticker)
http://www.cobrajem.com
thanks to you & your cohorts for taking us through one of the finer more recent threads
what I see happening is if things don't contract too much or worsen is your getting into the business ( along with your subbing out a frame ) of buying a one story like yours and putting a second story on ( YOU as the general ) and seeing some real numbers materialize for your growing family and tool jones like no othernumbers & mileage vary according to region but can't be too far off$280 grand gets you passable home w/ nice lot
you get into that for $25 grand / put $120 grand into it and sell for $480 or somethingthen on to new homes where framing is just the core of McCarthy Constructionthat's the encapsulated version but subbing isn't your futureall the best John
Let me get this right you need to hire someone because you have to many checks to cash? I wish I had that problem. :)
I'm a little late to the party, but I must say that you seem to be on target about your employees.
I'm an electrician not a framer. I've been a foreman, general foreman, field general foreman, etc., for over thirty years now. My labor source has been the local union hall, where ,[supposedly], a trained and competent work force is ready to go to work. The reality is somewhat like the workforce on the non-union jobs. Some folks are VERY well qualified and others can only get by by getting lost in a large crew.
What I'm trying to say is that people are people. You have to evaluate each one's capabilities and make your own judgements . I found that when pairing up the workers, one would usually take the lead and the other would follow. ORRRRRR----- production would occur at the pace and skill level of the least qualified. I found that if I didn't split those type of crews up, the job would slow down to the level tolerated by management.{ Why should Jim and Bob bust their arse when the other crew[s] are allowed to get away with less?
It's takes diligence and perservence to be a good boss. Step in and set the pace and then fade away and let your crew continue. They will know what is expected and you will be be able to readily observe if your standards are being met.
On another note--- I have observed that those individuals that "blow their own horn" the loudest, aren't usually the best qualified tradesmen [or women].You'll be able to tell pretty quickly if you have a "keeper" or not. As others have mentioned, a probationary period will let either of the parties walk away.
Good luck with your business expansion and best wishes with your future employee.
Chuck
That post, along with others, is another example of how it can benefit ayone to read these threads closely.
"It's always better to have regrets for things you've done than for things you wish you had done..........."
Edited 9/27/2006 11:33 pm by intrepidcat
See what happens when you aren't distracted by the Red Sox in the playoffs?
Maybe some year the Yankees will suck, and I can concentrate on my business.
We change the course of history,
everyday people like you and me
so....? what was the preferred form of payment again ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL....
Hey how 'bout them Pirates? Awww, maybe next year.View Image
The Pirates were just warming us up for a bad football season.We change the course of history,everyday people like you and me
Fellas-
I'm the new guy DP is talkin' about!!!!! NOT!!!!
DP, youse let me know when I should start @ McCarthy Construction, ok??
BTW, went by your house today on the way to see AMS....Looks good!!!
Also, I think I can handle those 2 projects we discussed early in the year on my own, so I won't be needing your help (sound like you have enough on your plate now, huh??). But I might pick yer brain a little, if that's ok with you.
http://www.grosshillrentals.com
dougy.. now that brian is gonna have to get away from the job every once in awhile... would be a good thing to get him out on the links
for his next step in business development....... golfMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
And a nudder thing...WHen I was driving by DP's house I noticed a kid's swingset in the backyard....Hmmmm......youse think he's hidin' sumthin' from us.How about you, me and DP go out and play a round of golf sometime???
http://www.grosshillrentals.com
do you think dp owns any clubs ?....sure, i'm in...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Only clubs I've got have roast beef and bacon on them. Usually served with fries. But I'm always open to new things......View Image
No chillin's running around here yet Doug. The house is just about wrapped up... electrician comes back tomorrow to finish a couple punch list things. And I've got to run shoe around the dining room. Furniture and wide screen moved in a couple weeks ago. Now for the garage.................
As far as picking my brain goes..... fire away. If you find anything in there, let me know.View Image