Again I am sitting around waiting for the concrete sub to get his work done, pick-up his check and move on so the rest of us can do our thing. Is it just my projects, or do they all start the job and then find something else to do? How do you other generals hold your concrete subs to a fixed schedule? All my other subs come, get it done, and get out.
I understand that stuff happens and we all can be delayed for a few days, but four weeks to do a weeks work is unacceptable. If the other subs are late its fairly easy to continue working, but not with the concrete sub, they stop the whole job.
This post is to get some suggestions and to let off some steam. On one project it took almost five months to get all of the slabs complete. Agreed, it was a bit complicated, but when a two man team can frame and sheath the house before the concrete sub can find the time to pour the attached garage slab, something is grossly wrong.
Maybe I should take a class in stress management or buy a heavy bag and takeout my frustrations on it. If only I had a young, good looking, single sister I might be able to pair her off with one of these guys, and use her to get him to perform his job.
I feel a bit better now, sorry for the rant.
Replies
Is this dude the only concrete sub around..............jeez, this guy sounds like my brother-in-law. A real gift to god he is. Your subs name isn't David, is it? For several years, outta a sense of "family" responsibilty, (what crap!) I would plead with David to show up, do something. I got smart and I don't use David no more.........Life is good and my current concrete sub is a prince!........and I treat him like one.
Anyway, this guy has got to go......find another sub and vow never to use this guy again.
Ha! I just finished a conversation with my wife about the formworkers next door.
My neighbor is putting up a new place. I have never seen formworkers go so slow. I think they get one board up a day! It's week number two and they still are not ready to pour. And we are talking a simple little project.
The place is beginning to look like the jobsites in the islands or the Gulf Coast, where buildings go up so slow that the rebar rusts away before the walls are up!
Unlike your sub, these guys do show up, they are here every morning at 7. When they leave, I don't know. On the other hand, on the days I've been around it sounds more like a social club than a worksite.
What I don't get is that we have a building boom on. These guys have a huge demand to fill. Why they don't get their work done and move on to the next job$, I don't know.
I sympathize, but maybe you can pour it youself. Or hire multi talented employees that can do it for you. Or find an concrete guy whose a better businessman.
I know your venting but as a guy has done alot of subcontracting, generally, the contractors point of view is I'm late but its not my fault, If the subs late he's incompetent.
I can't say which side your on from here. If you want the guys when you want them, tell them so and be willing to pay a premium. Then make sure you're ready. I'll give you a guaranteed start date, and pay a penalty if I'm not there. Will you pay the same penalty if you're not ready?
Tom
I do pour some of my own slabs, but this one must be pumped, and I don't want to add a concrete pump to my equipment list. As far as my being ready, the site was clear and pre-leveled to grade. Premium price? Is $5125 premium enough for a 22' three block high stem wall and a 500 sq. ft. slab? I think so, and I provided the gravel.
You are absolutely right about one thing, I do need to find a better businessman. This is the third concrete sub that I have used, and they all did me the same way, that is why I'm so upset. In a way I'm mostly upset with myself, I should have wheeled the stem wall footers, built the wall and formed it up, and just sub out the pumping. We all get older to fast, and smarter to slow.
"We all get older to fast, and smarter to slow."
Never heard that line before, but I like it. Might have to add that to my tag lines........
Then there was the old politician who went to see his doctor. He complained he was having to dodge issues he used to sidestep easily.
I've also seen it as "Too soon old. Too late smart."
Keep changing subs or train an employee (my favorite).
Hey Unc' My bro is a rocket scientist in northern alabama...Old Pro, not quite old, not quite pro, but closer every day on both...
"Be of concrete a little more careful than anything else"
I used to do it myself, largely because I couldn't find a reliable sub--finally I did--he gets ALL my concrete work.
If this is all the subs I could get, I'd definitely start training an employee to do it--this is awful!! I'd have had to get someone else, signed contract or not, my brothers a lawyer.
I had to pay for 10 yeards of dumped concrete when I a pump I'd hired didn't show up once. I'd put 2 messages on his voice mail during the week before, confirming date/start time, never returning the calls.When I got hold of him finally he said his employee had to go to court that AM. I took him to small claims and won but this didn't pay for my losses. I spent quite a bit of time telling people what I thought of him, its a small town. He ultimately packed up and left altho there might have been other factors. When I curse someone, they STAY cursed.
A HUGE hint here !! ALWAYS get the pump from the concrete company! ALWAYS!
Edited 8/23/2002 9:44:37 AM ET by EXLRRP
Edited 8/23/2002 9:45:49 AM ET by EXLRRP
Interesting topic since it's something that has come up several times in both
real world conversations I been having recently and the issues also came up
online over in the JLC forums a couple of times in the last few weeks in one
form or another.
The bulk of the business at my company is performed as a sub although we are
at the other end from the concrete subs you are describing. We perform interior
(and some exterior) finish work; architectural wood and metal work. The other
day I was looking at our own on-time performance statistics for the past two
years because some of the "problems with subs talk" over on JLC made
me think about what could be done to improve on-time delivery of projects both
from our point of view and from the homeowner/GC clients point of view too.
Some of the things I saw looking at my project records were that:
phase of the project we are only able to start on-time in the eyes of the
GC just less than 50% of the time.
By "on-time in our eyes" I mean if we say the project is going to
take three weeks for us from start to finish and we finish three weeks after
starting then we accurately predicted how long it would take us and we were
on-time.
last two years 100% of the starting points that GCs originally scheduled for
us as starting points have not been met. In other words in that time period
no GC has ever given us an accurate prediction of a starting date. While I
don't have the statistics for it the to the best of my memory the last time
I recall a GC accurately predicting when they would be ready for us within
their schedule was in 1997.
In a JLC forum Sean Millar, another finish sub contractor like myself, also
expressed having the same problems with GCs saying "Being the trim guy
I know I'm one of the last guys to get held back but if your the type to constantly
keep backing us up a day at a time ( when you know it will be three ) There's
only so long we'll play the game."
I then added later on "For the most part I think the balance of the
GCs think we are just sitting around doing nothing waiting for their calls so
we can come and take care of their project. And that usually has everything
to do with their convenience and nothing to do with ours."
While in OLDLOU's case it sounds like the concrete subs problems may or may
not be a result of bad business practices and lack of professionalism on the
part of the sub but I think there is a much bigger systemic problem at play
here. GCs have problems with subs and as sub we have problems with GCs
but we don't seem at all to be working together to solve them.
The discussions on JLC Markup & Profit forum that got me thinking on all
this was when Russ started a discussionentitled The
Domino Effect. In it he stated and then asked the question:
I was not to surprised that one of the GCs responding there asking another
GC "how do you make subs adhere to your schedule?". Like we
as subs don't have schedules to adhere to too...geeesh! I thought a much better
questions more realistic question would have been "how can we as GCs
coordinate our project's schedule with our sub-contractor's schedules".
I thought the "how do you MAKE subs adhere to your schedule?"
kind of thinking equated with a patriarchal hierarchic command and control mindset
where we as subs "work for the GC" rather than "we work with
the GC"..
On seeing the discussion my first comments were that:
What I was getting at was the traditional Machiavellian "level of consciousness"
and techniques like threatening, pushing, and busting our asses that so many
GCs practice is not going to get the project done on time or make up time they've
lost in the schedule. However I think scientifically and systemically dealing
with the problem however will begin to get better results.
All that aside I think where Russ's "hardened builder" friend who
said you need space in your building schedule had it right
and Russ's observation where he has " found a day or two between some
stages can sometimes result in a quicker job" was solid reasoning.
There is a chapter in The Goal that clearly explains why you shouldn't plan
or schedule your resources to 100% of efficiency (working full throttle 100%
of the time) but you need to design the work flow processes so that there is
Slack in the system to account for and adjust to the statistical fluctuations
in production processes. Having that Slack also allows for your system to play
catch up too when it becomes absolutely necessary.
While I seem to recall from something here years ago that Adrian Wilson has
read The Goal I'm wondering if anyone else here has too and recognizes the application
of The Theory of Constraints for a lot of what we are dealing with? Also this
past winter I read also read a book called Slack:
Getting Past Burnout, Busywork, and the Myth of Total Efficiency by Tom
DeMarco and from an an e-mail newsletter from FactCompany magazine I got I found
out that there was an article on their web site relating to the subject matter
of the book. The article is titled: Slack
Off---Who says being productive always means being busy? Not high-tech consultant
Tom DeMarco. Here's why he's so up on downtime anyone who would like a short
introduction to the concept and idea can click and read the article and skip
the book. The book is primarily geared for high-tech management but it still
has tons or relevant material and thinking.
Getting back to the original problem that OLDLOU is having with his concrete
sub having just re-read and re-listend to The Goal this over these past two
weeks (yeah it's also on CD
and eight
cassettes), and given what's again fresh in my mind I would bet that the
concrete subs problem is that he is over scheduled in terms of his companies
production capacity and there's no Slack at all in his Work Flow. When you are
running your company's resources that tight to maximum productivity and something
goes wrong to throw you off schedule then the problem cascades and multiplies
itself getting ever worse day to day. The problem that OLDLOU is victim of may
very well be the result of something that happened to his concrete sub way back
in early spring that has finally hit and taken hold or he has never been able
to recover from.
I know when I look at my own one time performance of 35% while right now we
have no problem getting to the projects when the GCs are finally ready for us
to start the extension of the start to finish timelines are a result of cascading
scheduling problems that were started for us back in May. Reading and listening
to The Goal again I been able to recognize some of the Constraints and Bottlenecks
in my Work Flow and I think I can see where I need to design some more capacity
in to my organization in the future.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Well, the little slab got it's termite spray today and hopefully will be complete mid-week, but it's a long way tween plate and lip. I thank all of you for stopping by while a cried in my beer and fussed bit. As always a lot of good common sense and the view from the other side helps one think a bit.
This young concrete boss obviously has about 4 or 5 jobs in the air at one time. He eventually gets them all done, but pi**es them all off in the process. What does he gain? He may prevent one of them from wandering off, but he will never get good recommendations or repeat business. I will not actively bad mouth him, you just don't do that in a small town, but I will not recommend him.
At some level I can understand his desire to grab as much of the gold as he can. Many years ago my boss would do the same thing, only he was clever enough to schedule are arrival and departure dates around what he called "show days", those days where, to the uninitiated, it would seem that we were making huge progress. We would leave one day away from a "show day". When we returned we would have suffer the attitude for a day then after we pulled off the "show day" the owner would bring us coffee and donuts, or such, until we were one day off of the next show day. Thought it was neat then, don't think so now.
To Jerrald, you just blew me away with your reply. You are absolutely right, we are all part of the jobs team and that our intersecting paths need to be better coordinated. I, as the GC, do my best to keep the subs up to date on the progress of the job so that we all can make adjustments, as required. The closer we get to a subs start date, the more frequent our updates. This system seems to work well, as the subs keep signing and showing up for the next job.
Subs coming in towards the end of a job are like the skinny segments at the end of a whip, they get the most motion. It would be a minor miracle if your start date ever held on one of my jobs. Super management will work on some processes, and with some people, but on my one-off, customs where I don't really care about squeezing every dollar out of it, I prefer a more personal approach.
Life is to short, enjoy each days work. At the end of a job take a real slow walk around and through the job all by yourself. Look at it from different angles, have a beer or two. You have just spent a part of your few days on earth creating this for others to use for decades, hopefully a century or more. If this walk-around is not supremely rewarding, find yourself something else to do to keep your skin and bones together. Joseph Campbell (sp?) said that we should always "follow our bliss".Very, very wise words. If you are not on "your path" you will never be a success in your own eyes. And in the end, it is your own opinion of yourself and your life that really matters.
Right now, I think that I will have another beer.
There has been awful good words said in this post .
Just to share a bit ; I remember stopping a job dead in its tracks for two weeks once. I was taping the drywall on a big house with a tight schedule. I had been asked to work weekends . I was planning on doing what was asked of me , for it was me that was carring the ball .
Then the unexpected happened . I was working running a bazooka in a walk in closet . The sherriff was looking at me . wow. He said your wifes brother just got killed and I cant find your wife.
Im sure there are a lot of things that happen to every one on the whole job. Seems I get lost in it sometimes . A relative decides he will come to see me for a few days . All work is called off if that happens normally because I work for my self and thats one of my perks.
Five months to complete a subs work is unforgivable . I enjoyed the reading , and thanks for posting it .
Tim Mooney
how about all the subs together
One thing I hear a lot of is:
(sparky) "O.K., I'm here, were's the plumber? He 's got more to do than me, and he ain't even started"
(heat guy) " Inspections by fri? When are the others getting theirs?"
etc.no turn left unstoned
I've been doing cabinets & some finish work(the more tricky stuff) for a local small time builder (south bay area of LA) for a little more than a year, finally think I have his scheduling figured out- First two houses told him I needed a month lead time to schedule in building his cabinets before install. got his go ahead, built my goodies, they sat in my shop for a month before the house was ready for me. the second one I got paid storage fees. He has 2 on a lot coming up, told him my storage fees were not high enough, pay me double or pay me handling fees to put them in your storage, which ever way works best for you...