Not to ruffle any feathers cause there are good ones, but…
We are doing a lot of acquisition-rehab-resales these days. Usually, the buyers hire a home inspector. Not a bad idea. The trouble is, so many of these inspectors just don’t seem qualified.
Yesterday, we got an inspection on a pending sale that said the “electric water heater is not working” and the trouble “probably an element”. Well guess what, it’s on off electric. I guess he never stopped and wondered why there was an extra meter next to the panel.
A few weeks ago, a different inspector called out “missing step flashing on dormer sidewall”. He assumed this because the sider had put an extra piece of coil over the step flashing for appearances. I called him, and forced him to admit that he had never even gone on the roof.
The problem is that homeowners are hiring this so-called expert advice. Basically, they have your word vs. their expert’s. Jeez. Maybe it’s time to start licensing the home inspectors.
Replies
>>Maybe it's time to start licensing the home inspectors.
A number of states have licensing, MN doesn't.
As an HI,I think it's a good idea. The problem is the existing licensing systems set the bar too low, IMO, and any new ones will follow the precedents.
>>A few weeks ago, a different inspector called out "missing step flashing on dormer sidewall". He assumed this because the sider had put an extra piece of coil over the step flashing for appearances. I called him, and forced him to admit that he had never even gone on the roof.
Walking roofs is up to the inspector, and it's a safety judgment call. I sometimes get inspections on houses I inspected years ago-my recordswill show I walked the roof then but I won't walk it now. AsI age, my agility has decreased.
You'd be surprised what you can see with binoculars, though.
Depending on the details as given of the situation, it is entirely unclear whether the existence of step flashing would have been detectable.
We can't see inside or through stuff. If all I see is a length of coil stock where I expect to see step flashing, I'd call it out as a concern--if I couldn't determine there was step under it.
IMO, If the step flashing is, in fact, hidden, then the "blame" falls on your sider for a non-standard practice. Besides, who thinks step flashing looks bad? To anyone with any knowledge, a continuous stretch of coil stock where there is supposed to be step flashing is what looks "bad", IMO
BTW: do you actually know yourself there's step under it? Or are you going on what your siding guy told you?
It is not uncommon thatI see details that the contractors outright lie about.
#1: "The existing shingles were stripped before the new ones put on." Most often found with older occupants.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
"Walking roofs is up to the inspector, and it's a safety judgment call. I sometimes get inspections on houses I inspected years ago-my recordswill show I walked the roof then but I won't walk it now. AsI age, my agility has decreased.You'd be surprised what you can see with binoculars, though.Depending on the details as given of the situation, it is entirely unclear whether the existence of step flashing would have been detectable."We can't see inside or through stuff. If all I see is a length of coil stock where I expect to see step flashing, I'd call it out as a concern--if I couldn't determine there was step under it.IMO, If the step flashing is, in fact, hidden, then the "blame" falls on your sider for a non-standard practice. Besides, who thinks step flashing looks bad? To anyone with any knowledge, a continuous stretch of coil stock where there is supposed to be step flashing is what looks "bad", IMOBTW: do you actually know yourself there's step under it? Or are you going on what your siding guy told you?It is not uncommon thatI see details that the contractors outright lie about. #1: "The existing shingles were stripped before the new ones put on." Most often found with older occupants."In fact there is step flashing, which you could figure out by hopping on the 4/12 porch roof with an 8' step ladder. Not really a safety concern on this one.The real problem I see is that this guy proclaimed in a written report (which someone paid too much for) that "the dormer sidewall needs step flashing." I wouldn't have a problem if he had said "step flashing may be missing on the dormer sidewall, which will need to be verified." Trouble is, how does this look to HIS client. He is charging for an inspection, but his client needs a second inspection to verify his suspicions? WTF are they paying HIM for then?the thing about this piece of painted coil that the sider put on is that it goes over the shingles, and is not fastened to the roof deck. No tar or anything. Yeah, it's kind of stupid, but it cries out to be lifted up and looked under to see what is going on.
>>In fact there is step flashing, which you could figure out by hopping on the 4/12 porch roof with an 8' step ladder. Not really a safety concern on this one.
>>the thing about this piece of painted coil that the sider put on is that it goes over the shingles, and is not fastened to the roof deck. No tar or anything. Yeah, it's kind of stupid, but it cries out to be lifted up and looked under to see what is going on.
So which is it? It can be easily verified or you have to "lift something" to verify it?
How much "lifting?"
I'll "lift" something if it will easily go back into place -like dripedge toconfirm the number of layers. If it will need, say renailing, nope -and under the various inspection standards of practice inspectors are not required to do so.
In part from industry standards, inpart from concerns re what owners can and will complain about, inpart because of time constraints - I don't have time to dismount the roof, head back to the truck, get the right tools and fasteners, remount the roof , pull stuff up, and refasten it. All becasue your sider didn't follow standard practices. (My buyer paid for a certain amount of time, and I probably have another inspection or other time commitments.)
I will do so but only as part of a separately billed "inspection plus" and with the (usually) written consent of the owner.
>>In fact there is step flashing, which you could figure out by hopping on the 4/12 porch roof with an 8' step ladder. Not really a safety concern on this one.
Under applicable standards, that is the inspector's judgment call.
I understand your concerns- I have concerns about the crappy inspectors out there too.
But I hope you will understand that there are factors at play which might not be immediately obvious.
For example: the contractor who comes in, takes something apart and then declares "Your inspector should have seen that."
If it has to be taken apart (apart fromstandard covers) then "no," we shouldn't have seen that.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
"So which is it? It can be easily verified or you have to "lift something" to verify it? How much "lifting?"You're grasping at straws here. We're talking a piece of thin gauge coil stock that flaps about 3" onto the roof. MIGHT have to take your gloves off to pry it up a bit, but there are no fasteners or anything into the roof deck. Comes right up, goes right back. Again, the larger issue:This is supposedly a professional "expert" who is rendering a written opinion which gets attached to a purchase agreement etc. If I was in his shoes, I would regard it as my professional duty to either get up there and see if step flashing was existing, or else write some weasel language like "could not determine that there was step flashing".I look at a lot of old houses, and a lot of them have siding tight to the roof. and the step flashings are completely under the tabs of the shingles. Standing on the ground and proclaiming it missing is just a joke. Might be there, might not be.
>>You're grasping at straws here. We're talking a piece of thin gauge coil stock that flaps about 3" onto the roof. MIGHT have to take your gloves off to pry it up a bit, but there are no fasteners or anything into the roof deck. Comes right up, goes right back.No, I'm trying to respond to the limited and contradictory information you're providing. That's why I ask questions.>>This is supposedly a professional "expert" ....Well, actually, no.Home inspectors, at least the good ones, hold themselves out as generalists, not as experts.I was hoping to provide a little insight for you, but I don't seem to be communicating well.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Hit a nerve, huh? :~)
These kind of questions are no different that any other trade's profession.
I think the only difference is that a HI is "supposed" to know each of the construction trades, past and present. And, when they do or attempt to, they wind up attacking each and every trade.
There lies the problem, One trade one critique; Mulitiple trades, mulitple critiques.
As for the education vs experience. Every trade , including HI's need both.
Another problem that I see/hear is the quality/extent/expectations of each interested party. the seller wants as few items to kill the deal. Same as the seller's agent. The buyers agent wants to protect the buyer and have as many things fixed at the previously agreed upon price.
Example our previous home in Norcal.
The joist/beam collumns are 2'x2' brick masonary. The were done in the 1930's. An HI told the previous home owner, before us, that they dont meet earthquake standards and must be retrofitted(huge, huge, huge cost). Would nhave killed every deal based just on this alone
When I bought it, I did my own inspection and I was comfortable about the method of construction. I knew what wasn't right and did not address these beccause of the price and i was plannning on gutting most areas.
The new owner had an inspection and the HI never mentioned it(should he have?), among many other issues. that should of been addressed. These items were the things that I still needed to complete. I knew they were there, he should have too and we are not talking minor things. Open junction boxes, ducts not completley supported, hot water feeds not insulated, etc. I told my agent and her comment was that she should would never use this guy, but it's up to the buyer and buyer's agent. The agent recommended the HI.(this is where I think the whole system is jacked up)
Did he give the new homwner peace of mind? not in my opinion. In one way, it could have relieved me of some liablilties,( probably not). But, at that point who is to blame/liable.
I believe the new homeowner was thinking that this guy has given a clean bill of health on the home. In my case I think they new owners have one, but what about sellers /builders/anybody who don't have the same ethics? Who is there protecting them?
BIG problem.
My perspective is a little different. I'm a certified inspector in both plmg and mech., and I get calls fairly often from sellers who've been dinged by the buyer's private inspector. He claims there is some code deficiency like the one you mention, but it has always turned out that he's mistaken: either he's flat-out wrong, or he's trying to apply a new code provision that was not a requirement at the time the house was built.
These guys are not going to be licensed anytime soon, so I suggest that you contact the appropriate inspector from the local jurisdiction for a second opinion. His opinion will usually carry more weight than the private inspector, especially since the private inspector tries to be knowledgeable about every aspect of construction, but the inspector from the local jurisdiction is probably certified in a specialty branch of construction. And he's not being bought by the buyer.
>>or he's trying to apply a new code provision that was not a requirement at the time the house was built.
Which raises a tough question.
HI's do not do "code inspections"as the general rule. There is no flat out rule as to how to handle "old code" work.
Most of that stuff I don't even mention.
But, say I'm in an older house with no kitchen/bath GFI's. I'll say "they weren't required when the house was built but it's a good idea for safety to have them changed out."
Or, say I'm in an old house with really wide spacing on the stair balusters. I'll mention that it was probably "acceptable"when built, that modern standards for safety require 4" spacing/clearance.
BTW, there have been plenty of times when one of my clients brings a friend in the trades- usually an electrician.
Almost invariably, they rip stuff apart based on current codes without allowance for the age of the building and I end up trying to explain to the client about applicable dates
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
My own saying about them is, "Home Inspectors are people who know very little about many things" concerning homes and construction.
>>My own saying about them is, "Home Inspectors are people who know very little about many things" concerning homes and construction.
My saying about contractors is "some of them know what they're doing; some don't."
Sometimes I add: "39 year old contractors in Seattle born on January 22 don't." <G>
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
When my place went on the market (I rent), I got a real education as to the reality of home inspections - and property sales.
The HI's that came through were quite a varied lot of eccentrics. Some were more through than others. All exhibited soem pretty major gaps in their knowledge.
In general, they all showed signs of having been through rather recent code seminars, had little perspective as to what was fairly new and what wasn't, and had little knowledge of older construction methods.
Yet, all this paled compared to the antics of the property owner. A "Nice young man," he turned into a complete shark. He had no qualms about mis-representing the property, concealing known major defects, etc.
So, there is a need for some form of inspection, by a knowledgeable person. This is especially true in this world of 'flippers' and 'investors;' fresh paint and patching plaster hide a multitude of sins.
In my own instance, it was amazing how the inspectors picked up on the lack of a GFCI receptacle in the bath (1940 house), yet missed the cracked foundation that literally has the house split in half.
Have yet to meet a HI that I think was worth his fee. Sold DWs house when we got married. I had not time or intention to fix the deficienies that I knew of. Figured I'd fix what he squawked and the buyers wanted fixed. He didn't find anything, especially the shingles sliding off the roof, the clogged gutter, some rotted siding where the grade was too close to the sill, and a few other things.
Same story for 3 more sales since then.
I hear there's good HIs out ther but I have to ask "where?"
Hi,
Where I live Home inspectors are a JOKE... at least the home inspector I hired. A so called reputable man who has been in the business for over 30yrs. Well known in the community.
I spend $400 for a home inspection.. He told me my roof was fine and not to worry about mold. He went up in the attic to check things out and told me that the roof wasn't going to come down anytime soon. I kept pressing him about the drooping drywall over the fireplace and finally got it out of him.. off the record that the ceiling in the main room could do with more support (girder) Therefore I would need to change the pitch of the roof... and in order to do that I would need a new roof. I wonder why he wasn't concerned about the leek???? did he just think that was due to flashing that needed patching.. My god!
How could any inspector pass a roof that was obviously leeking due to the staining on the ceiling, peeling drywall tape and sagging drywall. One look at that roof from the outside would have told anybody with any intelligence that a pitch of 2 degrees needed to be replace. You could surf on that roof.. it was that wavy!
A builider came in to look and he told us he wouldn't be able to insure the shingles because the roof was in such aweful shape. (now how could an inspector have overlooked that?)
I would never bother with a home inspection. Waste of money! I would recommend to anybody buying a new home to hire a qualitfied contractor to check things out.
The inspector I hired didn't seem to know much more about home inspection than I did.
Wanda
In my mind, home inspectors are good for catching things that would obvious to a professional/skilled DIYer. I was glad to have gotten one for my first house, he pointed out the FPE circuit panel (now since replaced), some drainage issues that I might have missed, and other minor things. It also bought some peace of mind from checking out things that I would have had a hard time doing, like walking the roof, crawling around in the attic, etc.I did luck out with a pretty good inspector, to be honest, just from reading stories on here. It pays to get references, instead of just flipping through the yellow pages.Four years and several major remodeling projects later, however, I wouldn't probably hire an inspector for our next house. But at the time, with my limited knowledge and skills, it was a good decision.
>>In my mind, home inspectors are good for catching things that would obvious to a professional/skilled DIYer.And i the real world there are plenty of professionals/skilled DYIers who have tried and not succeeded.>>It pays to get references, instead of just flipping through the yellow pages.Absolutely!>>Four years and several major remodeling projects later, however, I wouldn't probably hire an inspector for our next house. But at the time, with my limited knowledge and skills, it was a good decision.One thing an experienced home inspector brings to the job is a lot of experience: knowing th neighborhoods and problems likely to be found in them, knowing what sorts of conditions are typical in th buyers price range.*I "inspected" two of the houses I bought before I went into the biz. Since then, I hire someone else to bring a degree of objectivity I would necessarily lack.---------------------------
* When I went into the biz, I trained with some very experienced inspectors. They both said "it'll take at least 500 inspections before you really know what you're doing." I said to myself - "well, training with you guys, it won't take me that long." Got to around 600 inspections and realized they were right.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
>>Where I live Home inspectors are a JOKE... at least the home inspector I hired.So one bad one is enough to condemn them all?
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
>>So one bad one is enough to condemn them all?
I have met 2 good ones. but countless others are what give the industry a black eye
I have done quite a few inspections for friends and relatives. usually I dont charge. I get the work if the sale goes through.
I tell them all to also get an inspection from an impartial third party since I'm only going to check things that would cost them real money
its amazing to me what passes for a qualified inspector. here in CT you need to be licensed. that does make someone qualified. it only serves to control market share
I believe you need to document 500 inspections before you can get a license
I dont know how many times a new homeowner has stood in front of me reading an inspectors report with tears in their eyes
>>usually I dont charge. I get the work if the sale goes through.FWIW, the industry codes of ethics (3 trade associations) forbid inspectors from doing work on homes they have inspected to avoid questions regarding the defects they have reported.I am _not_ suggesting that you have acted inappropriately - just pointing out that, for the industry, it is a issue of concern.>>its amazing to me what passes for a qualified inspector. Me too.>>here in CT you need to be licensed. that does make someone qualified. it only serves to control market shareWell, not entirely. Without licensing, anyone with a flashlight and biz card can get inspection work.The market isn't very efficient in weeding out bad inspectors, but over time, even bad licensed guys will be weeded out.And, in the mean time, a lot of unqualified folks have been kept out of the market in the mean time.I agree though that the existing licensing schemes set a pretty low bar.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
well, I'm not part of that industry. I basically do the prospective buyer a favor. and I always know that buyer personally
like I said I advise them to get a "professional" inspection. that way they get a second opinion and they can sniff out an unqualified inspector
there is one caveat. in this state if the contract states "...sale subject to home inspection...", they cannot legally get out of the contract without a licensed inspectors report.
if that was to happen the inspector better be on the ball or there will be a conversation about his qualifications
>>in this state if the contract states "...sale subject to home inspection...",I'd run fast from any real estate agent who advised including that clause -- unless it simply says the buyer has the right to get one.I never give purchase advice or recommendations or say "the hiouse is (un)satisfactory."I spot conditions and evaluate their significance. My buyer then decides how important that information is to his/her situation.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Ahh, if it were only one bad 'inspector' .....
Visit any 'home inspector' fotum, and you'll see far more attitude than expertise on display.
Visit any trade-specific site, and you'll find lengthly threads outlining the foibles of the inspection business.
I recently had the city inspect a job of mine - and the city sent a 'contract hire' (read: home inspector) to do the inspection. While the man certainly meant well, it was immediately obvious that he had been 'seminar trained.' So, I went over the job point by point, explaining why I had done all the 'non-standard' things I had done. The short version was that the guy could pass a test using today's code, but was not familiar with the way things were done in 1960, and the allowances that required of me.
To me, it is the epitomeof hubris for someone to attend a seminar - then consider themselves competent to inspect the work of a man who has spent decades learning his craft.
Then again, as George Bernard Shaw said, it is far easier to be critical than correct.
I agree, there are far troo many incompetent home inspectors.
And incompetent contractors, lawyers, doctors and, so far as I know, Indian Chiefs.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Hi Wanda,
Not to meaning to be rude or flippant, buuuut, look where your contractor has got you.
Lack of standards and ethics in all aspects of residential work leads to various disasters.
Peace
Hi,
The company I had hired to do my roof and interior trim are members of the Building Association of Newfoundland and Labrador. This association has a code of ethics that all members are supposed to adhere to, Obviously they disregarded this code.
This job just gets worse.
the new contractor I have hired has been extremely helpful.
Wanda
>>I hear there's good HIs out ther but I have to ask "where?"I can tell you of plenty. And I can tell you of plenty of bad ones. 4 isn't exactly an exhaustive survey.I hear there are honest home sellers out there who disclose material conditions in the property.....Maybe your stat doesn't require seller disclosures.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
When a HI misses an item on a house, what's their responsibility to the new HO. What is it in the eyes of the judge? IS the HI responsible for any repair to the missed item?
HIs that kill real estate deals don't get called back from what I've seen besides those 4 I was personally involved with. I know of more similar experiences from folks I know.
and as innocent as you try to play, I know you've heard of the saying buyer beware.
When a HI misses an item on a house, what's their responsibility to the new HO. What is it in the eyes of the judge>>>>>>>>>>
Depends on how the HI contract is written. I am sure Bob has an ironclad contract!>G<
I have to have a limitation on liability clause in my K because of my insurance company's requirements.When I've missed something, I make it right, either paying for repairs or doing them myself.I do that even though I often don't really need to under the terms of the K - simply good business.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
I figured you had it covered!
>>HIs that kill real estate deals don't get called back from what I've seen besides those 4 I was personally involved with. I know of more similar experiences from folks I know.*A common belief. "Conventional wisdom" you might say.But there is more to it than the quick judgment of "conventional wisdom."And a lot depends on the professionalism of the HI.And the types and quality of the agents s/he deals with.If an HI overblows stuff, or acts emotionally or installs emotional responses, he is unlikely to get referrals. And, IMO, he isn't serving his/her client well, either.*And you can be assured that if an HI were to let stuff slide, s/he'd soon be out of business. A side of the equation most folks don't think about. (The industry average for legal actions is 1 in 1000. I'm 0 for 3500)Yeah, I've lost referrals from a few agents because my inspection revealed information that "killed the deal."And I don't miss those agents or their referrals at all. The agents I tend to deal with are no more interested in getting their clients into a bad situation than I am.---------------------------------
* My experience from 13 years or so in the biz is that new folks and part-timers "doing it on the side" are the ones who tend to make mountains out of molehills.And making small stuff sound big time is no more "legitimate" than downplaying stuff, IMO.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
I'd love to be an inspector but I'm afraid no one would ever buy a house I inspected.
That is good business, Bob, but certainly not what I'd expect from a HI.
What are the limits of your contract?
>>What are the limits of your contract?I have 2 options: the industry standard of limited to the fee charged for the inspection (which is required by my insurance carrier,) or unlimited for an additional "inspection plus" fee - a per hour fee with a minimum of 8 hours.Not only have I offered that option in 3500 inspections, but a big inspection co I know has in at least 20,000 inspections.I've never had anyone take me up, the co has had 1 person do so, I'm told.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Here, HIs are required to be licensed. I had a HI license, but decided I enjoy creating more than checking other people's work. I let the license expire because of the continuing education requirement and there are other ongoing expenses too, I forget what the yearly fees but I'm thinking it was $150. Errors and Omissions insurance is not required but here most HI's have it, and the cost is over a grand a year. You have to have a good contract that protects you as well.
To get the HI license you have to show experience - either work a certain number of hours under a licensed HI, (can't remember how many - maybe 2 or 3 hundred.) or have a general contractor's license - which has another string of requirements. You also have to submit a statement to show that your finances meet a minimum or buy a bond.
Here, most HI's have some kind of piece of software which is basically a glorified checklist and then generates the report. Often the report is available immediately when they are finished, and there is a summary section that contains pictures of any deficiencies identified. So, mostly what HIs bring to the table is a checklist. They do not specifically check code items - which IMO for new construction they should.
All that said, I'm on the other end of this thing. I'd say about 50% of the (new) houses we sell are inspected by HI's. Never really had any real big problem identified. The worst was one house had radon. Other than that the reports more often than not require not much time on my part to rectify the items cited. They often contain silly stuff like "plug has not been removed from the drain portion of the in-wall washer box". I leave those in to keep the trap from drying out until a washer is installed.
Really the real estate agents are way more bother than the HI's. The REs have to justify their commissions - sometimes they make more than we do for building the house.
DW and I have our house up for sale and will be buying another. She doesn't wanna build again.... I will probably hire a HI for the new house - why - another set of eyes - and to make the DW feel comfortable.
>>the cost is over a grand a year. And the fee goes up as one does more inspections. Mine is well over 3 times that.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
When I worked for myself, my daughter was sick and I was burning thru my cash at a rate that made it evident I wouldn't be running my own framing crew much longer?
My wife and I looked at alternatives that would require less overhead and provide more flexibility in hours.
Home Inspector was one of the possibilities.
I looked at maybe 5 franchise systems. One of them being a company called Pillar to Post, and another big name that I can't recall.
From memory, one was all about verifying experience and knowledge as well as providing training.................
The other was about selling a Franchise, marketing support, and billing you to use there brand name.
At the time neither New Jersey or Pennsylvania had any rules or testing for inspectors.
New Jersey instituted a licensing system a few years ago and probably put 1/2 of the inspectors out of business.
Inspectors are no different than contractors in many states.
The less the investment and time involved in being legal and qualified?
The lower the overall standard of service and product. That's just life.
But always remember, Inspectors who get reccommended to you by someone else involved in the deal? Like a Lawyer or RE Agent or Mortgage broker? Usually has a stake in creating the desired outcome..........................................
Round my way, an ethical inspoctor would starve to death.
>>But always remember, Inspectors who get reccommended to you by someone else involved in the deal? Like a Lawyer or RE Agent or Mortgage broker? Usually has a stake in creating the desired outcome..........................................Also keep in mind that the inspector also has an interest in not getting sued or paying claims.(BTW, contract limitations on liability are a pretty frail defense.)>>Round my way, an ethical inspoctor would starve to death.If I recall, you used to be near Columbus OH. I can give you the names of several very ethical and good inspectors down there. You're profile doesn't say now. Let us know and I'll likely be able to come up with some in your area; I have met ethical inspectors from all over the country.I'm sorry you feel so free to condemn an entire group of people with whom I suspect you have minimal experience.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
No, in fact, I'm not near Columbus Ohio.
On the other hand............Realtors have made it pretty well known............."Kill my sale and I'll ruin your business"
There remain a few independant inspectors, but for the most part they live off of referals.
Maybe that sucks, but the truth is few buyers take the time to find their own Inspector................most use the "Great Guy' the Realtor knows.
And well, Realtor? Used Car Salesmen?
>>And well, Realtor? Used Car Salesmen?May your milk of human kindness overflow your cup of bile.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Reality is often a bitch Bob.
>>Reality is often a bitch Bob.Glad you know that. It isn't obvious from your posts that you have much experience in that arena.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Do you really want to get personal Bob?
I mean really?
If you do, it's ok, I'm up for it..............................but maybe think about it first.
Nah nah.... Mommmmmmmmmmmmmm!
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Cork it!
If anyone wants to trade flames, do it in private. The rest of us find such off-topic tirades boring.
I do a lot of post home inspection / pre settlement punch work - usually for sellers. Haven't come across any way incompetent HIs, but everyone makes mistakes. I Live in MD, where a HI license is required.
One recently "recommended" mechanical venting for a duplex attic (donut fan on roof) but failed to address the fact that there were no soffit vents. The legal disclaimers on the reports basically say that the HI is not responsible for any mistakes nor can be held accountable for any information provided in the report.
At least one builder i know leaves a couple "problems" for the HI to focus on ( GFCIs are a favorite). People are expecting some problems to turn up, so make it easy.
As others said, there is a carefully choreographed dance between the agents, buyers, sellers, insepctors, appraisers... And if anyone steps out of line too much they won't be asked to dance again.
AMEN!!! I am spending the better part of three weeks rebuilding my daughter's roof in MS because of a HI I consider incompetent. We found severe leakage around her chimney because of poor flashing that caused framework to totally rot out. the HI report from a year before reported "...evidence of an old leak that had been repaired." (or words to that effect. I've gotten some excellent advice on rebuilding this mess here on BT. The HI obviously hadn't walked the roof. If he'd even tapped the counterflashing, he'd have seen it was loose in the mortar!
In reality, the list of deficiencies we have found would curl your hair (do you have any?) We have been appalled as she dumps money into this bottomless pit called a house.
Don
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"I
>>If he'd even tapped the counterflashing, he'd have seen it was loose in the mortar! And if he'd taped every inch of every window sill...., and every inch of every door jamb...., and every, and every, and every...It is impossible of course to comment on specific situations with limited information available. (For the chimney - I'd first look at the weather comments in the report - had it been raining or was it raining during the inspection? If yes, and if the inspector saw a dry area wit water staining, perhaps his conclusion a year ago that the area appeared to have been repaired might have been justified. But, of course, there are or can be other factors to consider.One of the things I see here is some overblown expectations of what a home inspector can do in the limited period of time available - i.e., the limited time which the buyer has paid for.I don't think I've ever tapped counterflashing without some visual evidence raising a concern about it.I do tap "random" samples of exterior trim.I hope people will stop for a moment and think about how many things and how many square feet there are in a house and realize that the prevailing rates for home inspections generally pay for about 3 hours of time and then realize that we can not touch/tap/eyeball every square inc.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Do you have any suggestions as to how one should choose a home inspector?
>>Do you have any suggestions as to how one should choose a home inspector?It's not easy. Ask friends, ask contractors (but be skepticl - some have attitude(!!) talk to HI's and see if they communicate well (be skeptical with them, as well) I recommend HIs who have passed the ASHI exams - not necessarily rocket science but the best in the industry.And yes, ask real estate agents. At least in my area, most are honest, although they are human - ask who they used for their own purchases!I think experience is key - >500 or so....I don't know if they cover Ottawa, but Carson Dunlop is a class outfit: http://www.carsondunlop.com/ -- although a few years ago someone here reported a bad experience with themThey provide a lot of education seminars at HI conventions, as well.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Thanks for the suggestions on finding an HI. I wrote them down for future reference. They will be especially helpful if I need to evaluate a property in an area with codes, climate, and pest etc. issues that may be substantially different from those of my experience.
Edited 4/5/2009 6:47 pm ET by sisyphus
Bob: He saw the mess of rotted & crumbled wood in the attic. That's what he commented on as to being repaired. Had he looked at the flashing, sticking out 1/4 inch from the bricks & seen the obvious crack along its top, he'd have touched it to find out if it were loose. You can see the photos I took of the disaster in my post from Feb about replacing roof rafters. Anyone who looked at that & thought it had been repaired was missing something.My comment & opinion as to his competency stands. BTW: had Daughter known about the seriousness of the problem, it would have been a sale killer.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I had one tell a client they had to vent the crawlspace under the family room which (of course) was built on a raised slab.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Most of the inspectors that I've had to deal with are certified idiots.
I had one running for his life when he came back after ruining a sale. I caught him standing in the yard probing (again) for the septic lines. He had told the buyers that the septic was inadequate because there weren't enough runs. Only one problem....it was a new system and the county had inspected ALL of the runs.
Certified idiots. Nothing more, nothing less. They can't make a living building the stuff....
I've looked at some very thorough inspection reports that picked up things I don't think I would have seen, but like most others here I've had a couple of run-ins with them.
One inspector told me the polarity of some of my outlets was reversed because I had installed them with the third prong (ground) up not down as is usually done. Another wrote that damage to a bathroom floor was the result of a roof leak. When I questioned him in court as to how he knew this having not inspected the roof, he told me the homeowner told him.
For me it's not so much that they make errors, we all do, it's that the consequences of their errors are usually so large: An enraged client on their way to see a lawyer, or scuttled real estate deal.
>>For me it's not so much that they make errors, we all do, it's that the consequences of their errors are usually so large: An enraged client on their way to see a lawyer, or scuttled real estate deal.Yep. About 10 years ago a house I had inspected burned down from a fire in the main panel -- no one hurt and, when I checked my report I had recommended immediate evalutation by an electrician and repairs -- I make a point of thinking of that inspection before every inspection I do....
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
I've been avoiding commenting on this thread because of the prejudices and emotions that the subject seems to bring out.This post reminded me of a storey tho - One of my instructors ( I had three teaching various phases in the class I took last year) spoke of a job he'd done. I think it goes like this. a Commander heading off to Iraq ( first Desert Storm) had him do an inspection for a house he was considering. The inspector found several things wrong with the roofing and siding - all fairly minor moisture issues on a fairly new house that could have been fixed for about 25K. The Soldier was immensely pleased. He was able to use that information to bargain the selling price down 75K and he completed the deal.Three years later, he had to house back on the market again, and wanted a pre-sale inspection to help him get it ready for the market. He called the same inspector having been pleased with his service.So the guy goes to do the inspection and discovered that NONE of the problems he initially pointed out had never been adressed, so there was rot and mold getting a good start. The owner now on the other side of the equation was upset with him and wanted to know why had he missed all this before, when he'd purchased the house?!Inspector asked HO if he had ever read the report or consulted a contractor about doing the work he recommended. Answer was hell no, I didn't think that stuff was important - just a bargaining chip.It cost him about 75K to get the house ready for market that time around
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
FWIW Hud has a "Residential Rehabilitation Inspection Guide"http://www.huduser.org/publications/alpha/alpha_r.htmlIt have only scanned a bit of it, but it looks like a comprehensive inspection guide. And has a checklist in the back."An important factor in making the best use of our nation’s housing stock is accurately assessing the condition, safety, usefulness, and rehabilitation potential of older residential buildings. The Residential Rehabilitation Inspection Guide provides step-by-step technical information for evaluating a residential building’s site, exterior, interior, and structural, electrical, plumbing, and HVAC systems.First published by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development in 1984 as the Guideline on Residential Building Systems Inspection, the guideline has found widespread use and acceptance among architects, engineers, builders, realtors, and preservationists.Now, for the Partnership for Advancing Technology in Housing (PATH) program, the guideline has been updated and expanded to include current assessment techniques and standards, information about additional building materials, and a broader coverage of haz-ardous substances and the effects of earthquakes, wind, and floods. HUD is pleased to reissue this important and time-tested publication, knowing that it will prove a valuable resource for preserving and reusing our nation’s building stock."You can buy it for $5 or download the PDF.Also under that section there is a number of pubs including a 9 volument rehab guide, lead reference, structure design guide and others..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks for the link.
Interesting checklist. I'm still trying to figure out how many answers to could be to the basement/crawl question "floor height."
<G>
Having a checklist is one think, knowing the significance of what's seen is what a good HI brings to the process.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
That's agreat story. It has all the ingredients of classic fairy tales where the villain gets their just deserts. Very satisfying!
Inspecting houses seems like a thankless job. There are just too many hidden problems that you don't have access to find once construction is complete. You can only really skim the surface.
So, did you decide to be a home inspector? I remember you were asking about it, but never heard the outcome. Sounds like you were pursuing it.
BTW - what are the licensing requirements, etc in Maine?
I took a couple weeks schooling for it while in FL tending to Mom last winter and added it to my card but have not pursued it as a business per se. bad economy/home sales market slows that business down, and my intention is to focus on the design work - doing fair at that.One thing that has helped is the training gives me a different focus in the rest of my work - to pointing out other things that need attention or repair while I am there on the job. Upselling to more work, improvements. edit - forgot to answer about licensing. That starts in June this year I believe.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 4/10/2009 4:42 pm ET by Piffin
>>One thing that has helped is the training gives me a different focus in the rest of my work - to pointing out other things that need attention or repair while I am there on the job. Upselling to more work, improvements.Good point. And remember, good HI's also generate a fair amount of work for contractors....
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
>>So the guy goes to do the inspection and discovered that NONE of the problems he initially pointed out had never been adressed, so there was rot and mold getting a good start. The owner now on the other side of the equation was upset with him and wanted to know why had he missed all this before, when he'd purchased the house?!
>>Inspector asked HO if he had ever read the report or consulted a contractor about doing the work he recommended. Answer was hell no, I didn't think that stuff was important - just a bargaining chip.
I've had several vaguely similar experiences.
There are differences of opinion in the industry as to whether the HI should break out "major" problems. I do it myself becaue I feel that such judgment calls are part of what the client is hiring me for.
And I'll treat/discuss, say, improperly connected/protected wiring differently then, say, some pipe hung with old wire scraps.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
I didn't have a problem with the actual home inspector at my new place - perhaps because it was such a fixer upper that most issues were visible. I did get a little put out by the sewer and water inspection. After the first weekend a holiday of course the drains started backing up. After finally finding someone available they came out and got things working but told me I needed it checked out. My local guy then found out the septic system they checked was abandoned 20 years ago. He new because he had a map from the health department.
>>After the first weekend a holiday of course the drains started backing up.
FWIW, it is my experience that a house which has been unoccupied for a fair stretch of time is more likely to experience sewage backups after re-occupancy.
Not a high risk, but it is a standard clause in my report when I inspect a vacant property.
My hypothesis is that gunk which builds up inside waste pipes stays soft and smooth while the house is in use. When it sits empty long enough, it hardens and cracks form.
When the house is reoccupied, it stys hard and the cracks become traps for hair etc.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman