what do you you guys tell a home owner that thinks screws are the way to go when it comes to framing?
“They don’t move” is their argument.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Fine Homebuilding's editorial director has some fun news to share.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
you got the deep pockets....
we can do...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
If you want to show him the superiority of nails for framing, do this.
1. Get 14 pieces of 2x4 together, all at 4' long. Break it into two piles of 7. Get a timing device of some sort, like a digital watch or a stopwatch.
2. Have him time you while you make a 4' wide x 4' 4.5" tall wall with the 7 pieces (1 bottom, two on top, and 4 vertical on 16" centers) with your nail gun, or hammer and nails if you are ballsy.
3. Have him time you doing the same with GRK #10 or similar screws. Pre drill if you need to on the ends.
4. Now, show him what the price difference would be if you billed using one method versus the other, at a per fastener price. Now multiply up by the number of fasteners his project would take.
I'm the biggest supporter of screws on this board, but I'm driving them myself not paying someone else. I'm also not building a new wing on my house. Modern framing crews use modern fastening methods, and unfortunatly screw tools aren't nearly advanced as nail shooters.
I do believe that some screws are MUCH better than nails for strength and hold. I also believe that most people inexperienced with hammers or nail guns will much prefer the ease, simplicity, and safety of a drill or impact driven screw.
But I also know that the economics of screws do not work out well for most people. I think someday that will change, but today is not that day.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
once we had a HO who didn't like to see us toenailing partitions.
so I demonstrated that they were stronger by thru nailing one stud and toe nailing one to a plate.
then I let him pull them both off the plate...
Guess which one came off easier???
DIY types think that because THEY can't toe nail efficiently, that makes it an inferior system.
"The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character."
See, now if you had really listened to Maxwell's Silver Hammer you'd have known the Beatles explained that all decades ago <G,D&R>[Sorry, couldn't help myself]
Fighting Ignorance since 1967
It's taking way longer than we thought
nails serve the purpose.
if he wants better tell him he should be spec-ing simpson hardware on EVERY connection.
then say "you buy the shid and pay for ALL the extra hassle , I will gladly waste your money"
you're in bidniz now for yourself right lol?
you gotta work on your presentation man. ';)
What!!!!!
I don't want that kind of work and my presentation makes it clear...
don't it???
well I gotta go Lag bolt down some vinyl flooring...
300 mph winds expected tomorrow..."The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character."
tell him that nails will not move either..
but if he wants to double the labor for the framing phase,
and if the BI will approve the use of screws, then you are willing to do it... then work up the price and let him decide ( after checking with the BI )
Your still using nails for framing?
And I thought this was Fine Homebuilding.
no, no, no...you got the title all wrong....should read:
"home owner likes TO screw WITH MY MIND/TIME"
knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
Politicians, like diapers, need to be changed often...and for the same reason. (bumber sticker)
http://www.cobrajem.com
that approach is the norm...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Someone told me once, also, that screws will snap when stressed (earthquake, anyone?), while properly nailed assemblies can allow a little 'give' and still hold. Inspector said this is why code requires that anti-shear plywood be installed with nails instead of screws.
Nails do generally have greater shear strength than screws
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It really depends on the screw. A #6 drywall screw, or Grip Rite deck screw are pretty much worthless. I've had Phillips Deckmate screws tear a 16ga. Simpson strap rather than shear off. The screw metal is harder than the hanger metal. You can still bend it over though with snapping it.
On the other hand, the Senco screws that you buy in the bucket are code rated equivalent to 8d nails for shear wall construction. You use the same amount of fasteners on the same schedual.
Check this out if you, or your inspector, have doubts:http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICBO-ES/6068.pdfRebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
PGproject,
I think you can make a clear case for using sheetrock type screws that way. They are brittle and prone to "snap".
Real screws and especially lag screws are not and they have as much shear strength as the equivilant sized nail does and far more resistance to pulling than a nail does..
Hey guys, from a home owner - not a professional builder - who happens to be building his own home, it may be a bit simpler to convince this new home owner.
Before this home I had no clue what a "coated sinker" was. The holding ability of these puppies amazed me when compared with a standard nail. I had previously always turned to screws, also, when I wanted real holding power (although I would never have considered asking my framers to use screws).
You might consider shooting two boards together with a couple sinkers and let them try to pull them apart. All the numbers, physics, old wives tales, etc., don't really hold up much when you're actually experiencing it yourself.
if the HO wants screws... the HO gets screws..
for a nominal fee of course...
I'm well aware of CC sinkers.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
why stop at screws. Why not get into the glue and hanger everything. Lag bolts lots of lagbolts. Or if youre that worried about it why not go to Icf. We've got a joker on canadian t.v. really pushes screws. and almost goes to the point of saying that screwing it is the 'right way' so now I get asked all the time why don't I use screws. Truth of it is he's got contracts with homedepot and is sponsored by dewalt, who just launched a new impact driver. DIY idiots every where around me went out and bought one. No wonder he's sponsored.
Nick25,
do you deny that a properly glued and screwed joint is less likely to fail than one that is properly screwed?
If not (and no reasonable person would), then we are simply talking about degrees.. I can build you this much house for X # of Dollars if I nail it and X plus if I use screws and glue..
Last summer we took down a 100 year old timber framed barn on my farm. This was a softwood frame with oak pegs. After swinging the bents around with a crane and laying them on the ground, I tried pounding out the pegs. Not happening. I could advise this HO of a better method than screws.
i say everyone should lay off ol frenchy here and let him screw the whole damn house together...if we're lucky, he'll post pictures of his progress....the first week will be drilling pilot holes in all the framing, followed by him picking up some new laborers at the bus stop because the rest of his crew quit ahahahh...
this thread should be boycotted, if not for the rest of us, then at least for frenchy...i fear he may become a recluse and just stay home to prove all his useless formulas...
I know what ya mean...
there are places here that are pre-Louisianna purchase that have no metal fasteners in them...
still standing ..
still being used..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Just learned on another thread that McFeely's makes plastic collated screws for a nail gun. About 4 to 6X the price of collated nails though ($50 for 1500 screws)
Code here doesn't permit framing joined with screws. All permits issued come with a nail schedule for every stick in the house. If you pay for the time, and for an engineer's time to put together a new fastener schedule, then I guess I'd screw your house together. Otherwise, not. Sounds like this client will be questioning your methods on everything.
davidmeiland,
If you read the code then you should know that alternatives are permitted. I doubt any building inspector would have an issue of using the same diameter/ length screw with the same schedule as nailing does..
I believe the problems arise when you try to use the added strength of screws as justification for a less frequent fastner schedule..
If you had much practical building experience you would know that (a) screws are completely unnecessary for framing a house (b) screws are much more expensive than nails, both in terms of materials cost and installation (c) persuading an inspector to accept screwed framing would require calcs or similar from an engineer, plus time spent arguing over it, for no good reason.
If it were even a halfway decent idea then there would be a lot of adopters. It's just not done. The OP is dealing with a HO who doesn't know jack and is just making his job harder.
Honestly, your posts are tiresome. Stop trying to convince everyone that you know so damn much. In my opinion you make a fool out of yourself with your efforts.
DavidMeiland,
I'm just repeating what Fine homebuilding has said.. I didn't do the reasearch they did.. Maybe you don't believe Fine home building?
Ditto on Frenchy
what do you you guys tell a home owner that thinks screws are the way to go when it comes to framing?
"No problemo. But, I gotta add a coupla zeros on the end of my bid. OK?"
alrightythen,
I'm not so sure that you should be so adiment about not using screws. The holding power of screws is well documented in this magazine as well as others..
If every home were screwed together I doubt there would be as much destruction when high winds and tornado's. hurricanes hit..
A simple comparison documented in Fine Home Building..
Properly installed toenailed rafters come off at 208 pounds of force. A 3/8ths inch lag bolt increases the holding power to well over 3000 pounds.. That's one that's just rammed in, no pilot hole no shank hole..
Imagine winds of say 150 mph, there is no way the roof will remain on under those conditions.. once the roof is off the walls blow down and the home is wasted. Hopefully nobody got killed because of it..
Now increase the holding force to 3000 pounds and suddenly winds in excess of 300 MPH won't be able to pry that roof off..
Now the down side.. Time..
You'd have to increase your labor costs dramatically. Given the speed at which you can assemble with a nail gun and the doubtfull resale value of a screwed together house a clear arguement can be made for nailing..
winds in excess of 300 MPH
Frenchy, think you need to double check your physics on this one.
300 mph winds (according to "Effects of Nuclear Weapons") is more than 10 psi (14,400 pounds per suare foot), that will obliterate almost any wood structure, and even damage reinforced concrete.
Sorry but I'm sure you meant 1,440 lbs/ft^2 = 10 lbs/in^2 since there are 144 sq in per sq ft.Frenchy isn't that far off. Even some thrown stones would not effect the screws at that rate. Stu
Junkhound,
Sorry to respond so late to your earlier post regarding structural strength of wood and 300 MPH winds..
The British built Misquito of WW2 was capable of nearly 400 MPH and it was made from Spruce and glue!
yes, but they knew which way the wind was blowing when they designed it. <grin>!
paul42
;-) darn, I thought that was a gotcha! You guys are good!
So all you gotta do is design a house that pivots in the wind.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
a house that pivots into the wind has been done. Somebody is buying up airliners no longer fit to fly, and mounting them on a pillar that allows the plane to rotate. An elevator and boat dock are built into the pillar.
I've seen the ad for that but I don't think he has completed one yet. I'd like to see one completed. Tom
Douglasville, GA
>>"The British built Misquito of WW2 was capable of nearly 400 MPH and it was made from Spruce and glue!
Sorry, have to jump in here . . . was the airframe hit by any car size chunks of flying debris? ;-)
Mythbusters just did a show where they shot a piece of piano wire about a foot long at a little over 300 MPH and it went right through a tree . . . and a concrete block wall. Reed shoots (like stiff straw) at 300 MPH went into the tree pretty deep. If the wind itself didn't blow your house to splinters, the flying debris would make sure of the job.
I gotta agree with Junkhound -- 300 MPH wind = a hole in the ground where your house was.
But there is a building on the top of Mount Washington that is still there -- the observatory. It (including its roof) is held in place with large steel chains anchored into the ground. Mt. Washington had highest recorded surface wind at 231 MPH back in 1934 (not a tornado).
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Philarenewal,
Well it depends.. You see the nasty Germans had this habit of sending big pieces of metal into the air and then exploding them. If it was just hit by a chunk of that big piece of metal the Misquito had a nice habit of making it back. If it was hit at the same time as the big chunk of metal exploded then it wouldn't.. but then the same gun that fired those big pieces of metal at planes was also used to fire at Tanks with similar results..
You really should read a little about that plane.. interesting stuff.. Made with spruce and glue and little brads to hold it together while the glue dried and it was astonishingly fast, light, and strong! Many homebuilt aircraft are made with nothing more than spruce and glue and brads. The wings are fabric covered with paint and they regularly fly at speeds much greater than an F1 or 2 Tornado..
I too watched the Mythbusters thing.. The straw penitrated a 1/4 of an inch. and that was a Palm which has an extremely fiberous trunk.. Since There is no rating for Palm as a structural wood that I can find, I wonder what a 300+ mph straw would do to a chunk of black walnut..
I hate to sound like I have to win this one but I wish you guys could see exactly how this house is built..
The walls are over 16 inches thick. the outside timbers would stop most things, and if it didn't hit the timbers it would hit the stonework.. (yeh stone infills between the timbers.. Granite and other stone is pretty durable stuff. If that car did somehow get up to 300 MPH (pretty unlikely given the effects of gravity and drag etc..) but it might dislodge some stone. If you run a car into a stone wall at 300 MPH the car really tends to get pretty badly crushed and the stone doesn't seem at that worse for wear..
Besides I'm a little too far from a major road for a car to reach.
I will grant you that if I were ever hit by a F5 tornado (Highest on record in Minnesota is an F2) there might be some cosmetic damage, the windows will definately be history, but I have every expectation there would be no structural damage.
ps the foundation is up to 22 inches thick steel reinforced concrete with a 4000 PSI rating and the footings are 24 inches x24inches steel reinforced 4000 PSI The only place where inside timbers actaully go outside is the entryway where the oak timbers are 18 inches thick. (still covered with about 5 to 6 inches of stone)..
>>"I will grant you that if I were ever hit by a F5 tornado (Highest on record in Minnesota is an F2) there might be some cosmetic damage
Hey Frenchy, I guess the days are getting shorter and my Breaktime addiction is out of remission (and now I'm waiting for a lumber package so I can sneak some free time in). Hope all is well.
We had the FEMA engineers working overtime on a computer simulation of exactly what would happen to your teriffic house if hit by tornado. The first shot is the front entryway. The second shot includes the rest of the house (with your car in the background).
View Image
View Image
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
philarenewal,
Have you ever seen a railroad bridge torn out by a tornado?
I've not, even tall ones.. Since my walls will carry more weight than a railroad track will, I'm still betting on my house ;-)
Frenchy;
I spent a lot of years as a construction millwright where the use of lag screws is pretty much verboten and scoffed at, deservedly, by reputation and performance on large wooden industrial buildings.
Through bolting with machine bolts with shear plates or shear rings is/was the standard way to build something and tie the wood together if you want to get down to the ultimate performance....something maybe you should have considered when you assembled your "double timber frame" sandwich.
My timber frame/log home is not "doubled," but when assembling my hammerbeam and king post trusses, it was never a consideration to use lags (I'm admittedly prejudiced in that regard).
Unless special ordered, lags have no SAE rating and I, personally, do not trust them. And unless piloting and boring and driving is done correctly and carefully, especially when driven into hardwoods, they're prone to breakage, and if they don't twist apart, how do you know they've not been compromised?
I was tempted to respond here because you brought up railroad bridges; there are a lot of them out here and I would defy you to find a single lag in a single one of the wooden ones.
I'm near a seaport and none of the wooden docks and piers and wharfs sport any lags.
Where not through bolted, assemblies consist of drift bolts in the heavy framing and square cross-sectioned bridge spikes in the decking. These structures survive heavy tides, storm waters, being bumped by large ships and heavy dock traffic.
Most of the custom houses I've built have had lam beams, paralams or sawn or hewn timbers incorporated in the frame and, where required by engineering spec's, were secured with Simpson hardware (or custom fabricated eqivilent) and secured with through bolts.
This thread, in the overall scheme of things, as Joe Carola says, is pretty pointless.
I've worked on a lot of older homes that have stood solidly for well over a century through hurricane force winds and a handfull of earthquakes that were assembled with cut nails.
Why someone would advocate screws for general framing and sheathing purposes makes about as much sense as installing grease zerks on all the hinges in a house.
Notchman,
You make a good point. One which I considered carefully when I built my house.. However it is in direct conflict with fire codes.. In Europe (the only place that has actually instituited modern firecodes for timberframes) they studied them carefully and found that a number of firefighters were killed because the pegs which hold together traditional timberframes is the first failure point. When the pegs fail the timbers fall and firemen were hurt or killed as a result..
Their solution which is what I have followed was to require steel connections insulated by wood. (anotherwords buried steel fastners covered by false pegs)..
Then they award the building commercial ratings and insurance is far more reasonable..
I don't expect such treatment by my insurance company but it does make sense to me.
Regarding thru bolts and rings with the SIP panel between I could never gain full advantage of the thru bolt technique. I might have considered it in the only place it would have applied in my case (the scissors trusses)
I was extremely carefull regarding the installation of the lags, Three holes were drilled for each one installed.. First a counterbored hole, then the shank hole and finally the pilot hole.. To speed things up I ordered a dozen special drill bits. a two step bit and a counter bore attached to it..When no amount of tightening would keep the counterbore from loosening I then TIG weldwelded each one in place. Even still I could snap off the pilot hole with a moments sideloading at the wrong time.. I had over $100.00 in each special drill bit. I eventually found out that if I used a self feeding counterbore ffirst, 18" ship auger as the pilot hole and then drilled for the shank I spent less time drilling. ( I'd guess that so far I have somewhat over 8000 lags installed with only about 1500 to go)
I carefully selected my lubracant. Soap or candle wax was out and when Fine Wood Working tested and found that the best was the lube offered by Grizzly and that was nearly one of the cheapest I jumped on it like a duck on a June bug. I'm willing to bet I've used nearly a hundred tubes of that stuff..
Most of my lag bolts are not in tension which is the only possible failure point I can see. Effectively they act like the pins you've mentioned and are in shear.. where any lag bolt is in tension it is always backed up by at least two in shear..
If you extrapolate the data given in Fine Home Building It took 2783 pounds to pull a 3/8ths inch lag thru pine in tension. Isn't it reasonable to expect somewhat higher number pulling a 1/2inch lag bolt thru White Oak? Especially when you look at the data which there was no referance to either a pilot hole or shank hole drilled. They just rammed them in and let the thread force their way thru (which I'm sure you'll agree is not the correct way to install any lag bolt for the maximum strength)..
I shouldn't ever expect SAE to rate lag bolts, frankly lags aren't used in the contruction of automobles, (although I'm not sure about Morgans ;-) )
Edited 9/16/2006 5:29 pm ET by frenchy
Notchaman,
Then I supose my periodic removal of hinge pins and giving them a coat of synthetic grease is massive overkill in your opinion.. ;-) Sure wish they had zerks!
The National Design Standard for Wood Construction has 8 pages related to lag screws.Lag screws are required to meet ANSI/ASME standard B18.2.1-1981.Perhaps you should purchase the above reference.
the latest rev is 96
Notchman,
do this simple test.. build yourself a chair out of 2x4's and plywood and nail it together..
build another chair out of similar 2x4's and plywood and screw that together with lag screws.
tell me next month which is more durable..
I'll use nuts and carriage bolts.
If I do use lags, I'll use something like a Simpson SDS that actually has some QC built into it.
Edited 9/19/2006 12:55 pm by Notchman
Notchman,
What if you can't get to the opposite side to install carriage bolts? Besides this discussion isn't about which bolt or screw is best rather if nails are superior to screws..
I was over to the rocket sciencetist's house and looked at the basement per yur request.....
did you realize the basement is 100% framed with screws??? Piffins no less...
and the new house project next door to him, the footer's forming is put together 100% with Piffins also...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Frenchy,Is this all you have time to think about?You say that a "properly installed toenailed rafter come off at 208 pounds of force" but what if you add a Simpson H2.5 with the proper nailing pattern? I guarantee it would take more force than a few hundred pounds.BTW- how are you going to use a 3/8" lag screw to toenail a rafter?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon Blakemore,
This was covered in Fine Home buildings book on roofing which was a copy of an earlier article they had on the subject.
Well researched and documented plus done under labratory conditions..
I can't site the page and the original issue because that is up in the attic right now. I do remember it's towards the back of the book.
Please don't make me go up to the attic to find it.. I can but it's not worth my time..
They also covered Simpson connections and have the failure point for each one.. Basic tabs increase it to several hundred pounds and the best approached the strength of the 3/8ths lag bolt. (H7 if my memory is corrrect).. (It took the same amount of time as the 3/8ths lag bolt to install)
I didn't say the lag bolt was toenailed.. it wasn't toenailed in the article rather screwed in from the top
Frenchy,If you have 3/8" lags holding your rafters down then you better have 1/2" all-thread from footers to to plate as well.No one can figure out why you feel the need to build so you can theoretically withstand an elephant landing on your roof in the midst of 300 mph winds. Houses are not generally subjected to the conditions that you claim to build for- so why worry about it?You say it's not worth your time to go into the attic to find a book, well if you didn't use 12 ss lag bolts for every framing connection maybe you would have more time to do things like trips to the attic and finishing your house.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
JonBlakemore,
We have differant values.. I believe that a person should do the very best they can regardless.. You seem to accept what is easier or more accepted.. Jez, That sounds wrong. like I'm saying that I'm better than you..
It's not what I'm trying to say at all.
Most people want and need what you do.. It's acceptable to you and most others..
You're making choices and trade offs. Spend more less time doing things that may only be needed in extreme conditions and you have more time for hobbies or time off.
I could make an arguement about the lowered cost of insurance but you could easily counter that with the cost effectiveness of such an approach. Jez, Now I'm argueing with myself.. ;-)
I do so simply because I want you to understand that I considered all of this prior to starting my house.. I understand that my values are differant than yours. Doesn't make me wrong, or you! Simply that there is a differance..
If the orginal person wants screws and is willing to pay for them maybe he should be listened to..
"No one can figure out why you feel the need to build...to the conditions that you claim to build for"
He claims to have over-engineered his house to a ridiculous degree. But he's also posted her on BT asking what the Pythagorean Theorem is.
IMHO if he doesn't know what the Pythagorean Theorem is, his wild claims are suspect. I can't imagine anyone doing advanced wind engineering who doesn't know basic math.
When I make a joke, nobody gets injured...when Congress makes a joke, it's the law. [Will Rogers]
I don't want to establish myself as a lunatic keeping company with frenchy ;-), however he is telling the truth about the lag bolts. There was an article in Fine Homebuilding many years ago when they had issues that had lots of factual and informative content from cover to cover. (The ones most here remember and lament, and want them to go back to.) I can't remember all the details but it did detail several types of standard fastening methods plus some unconventional ones (including the lag bolts) with strength comparisons with resistance to forces of nature. I don't have the article handy either but it may have been about the time of Hurricane Andrew or just after.So on that score you have to cut frenchy some slack. frenchy. For anything else you say however your back on your own. ;-)Getting back to the original poster problem. My first thought was go ahead and screw them.;-)
But with the qualifications that the other posters have noted. If the customer wants to pay for the engineering stamp, the building department and inspector will pass it, and you want to try to work that way. The suggestion of the new nail gun screws and the use of ring shank or Ardrox nails for those locations that are hand driven might be a compromise that won't be too much of a change in your method of building and will satisfy the customer. Before you do go with this job you better check to see what other nonstandard "things" they want done. The screw issue could just be the first of many preferences. They may start coming up to you and wanting all the rust removed from all the foundation rebar before the cement is poured. Avoid that one by getting the stainless rebar to start with.(edited to correct spelling of frenchy's name)
Edited 9/11/2006 2:30 pm by QCInspector
I'm not contesting that lags are stronger, but why are they needed?As Frenchy said, you could get the same results with a Simpson connecter that connects the truss/rafter to the to plate.The OP was talking about using screws for framing, which for the most part would have no value. A typical stud connection (face nail into end grain) would not be significantly improved with a screw. If you want real strength, use a Simpson connector.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon Blakemore,
Of course not!
Screws aren't needed!
I hope I've never said that they were, if I did I was wrong and it's not what I mean!
If I recall it took more time to put the really good Simpson connectors up then it did to ram the Lag bolt in.
You guys made me do it!
Fine Home building Framing roofs, Tauton press, 1996 (I own the second printing in 1998) Starting on page 126.
Well my memory was slightly wrong. the Simpson connector with the most strength was the H6 and not the H7 3316 pounds to 2726 pounds..
The 3/8ths inch lag bolt was 2783, higher than H7
They estimated the labor cost per 100 connectors at $84 for the H7 and S95 for the H6 but lower than the H6 the labor for ther lags was listed as $175 however no mention of an impact wrench either electric or pnuematic.
They gave a few examples of wind load calculations and those numbers are what I based my estimate on..
I do agree with you regarding the need to screw compared to nailing.. (rafters aside) probably overkill. Definately expensive.
I used simple logic to decide why I needed to screw mine together.
First the only way I could conform to european firecodes was to use lag bolts, second, the SIP manufacture requires them, third it was the only real way to connect those giant timbers in a structurally acceptable manner..
Finally,
Timberframed homes that last for centuries in Europe all tend to be massively overbuilt. So I carried overbuilding to new heights.. It's been fun.. ;-)
I agree with Frenchy that 3/8 lags are good to use - especially as I get them free off old pallets. A number of my sheds are lag bolted together.
I still disagree that 3/8 lags will do any better than any type nail in a 300 MPH wind.
If FHB said lags would resist 300 MPH winds, well......... it just aint so - you could have 1/2" steel plates and grade 8 bolts at every joint of 2xanything, and there would only be kindling left.
F5
Incredible tornado
261-318 mph
Strong frame houses lifted off foundations and carried considerable distances to disintegrate; automobile sized missiles fly through the air in excess of 100 meters; trees debarked; steel re-inforced concrete structures badly damaged..
Frenchy likes toelags?
That just sounds funny to me.
I was going to say that here in Oklahoma a tornado could easliy wipe out a regular home. I would feel better living in a house that was lag bolted together. I have gone up in the attic and installed Simpson connectors so that the roof is more securely attached to the walls. Even if it took an extra day to screw the framing together instead of nailing I think that is well worth it here in tornado alley.Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
junkhound.
You are absolutely correct! In a 318 mph wind (highest recorded in North America) almost any house made of 2x material will wind up as match sticks..
Where you are wrong is with regard to my house! (which is the only one I made that claim for)..
Mine is a double timberframe and the numbers go up dramatically when you start to use the giant oak and black walnut timbers I used.. (that plus instead of one 3/8ths lag bolt I used 26 (yep, twenty six) 1/2 inch x 12 stainless steel hardened 18/8 lag bolt per bent. Some lags in tension as tested and some in shear which wasn't tested but would be far higher! Each bent is 48 inches on center for a total of 10 bents in the great room alone..
Now that does not count all of the lag bolts used to make the other connections between each inside and outside timber or those used to make the dormers or window frames. plus each corner top and bottom is braced (inside only) It also ignores the structural vcalue of the SIP which according to the manufacturer is 200% stronger than a comparable stick built house.
Frenchy, I know your house is strong and have looked at the pix you have posted previously, but do some math.
I'll say your house is 50 ft long and 30 ft high including the steep roof.
30 x 50 ft = 1500 sq feet.
300 mph wind produces just over 10 psi overpressure.
144 sq in per sq ft X 1500 X 10 = 2.16 million pounds wind force.
I'll use your last post number and say you have 2 ft thick wall filled with stone, concrete even, even the roof.
I'll assume a 2000 sq foot first floor, total height of 30 feet. 180 foot circumference X 2 ft x 30 ft X density of say 100 #/cu ft average = your house weighs just over 1 million pounds.
Where does that leave the house?
Edited 9/16/2006 6:10 am ET by junkhound
Very good junkhound,
Except you're not exactly correct in your calculations..
it's not the weight of the house that is at issue,
it's the ability to resist your 2.16 millon pounds of wind force..
Airplanes are very flimsey. take a hammer to any of them and after you get out of jail,,,, ;-) you'll notice they dent extremly easily. yet airliners regularly survive 500 plus mph hour winds.. I'm certain if you used your formula the airliner is resisting much more wind pressure..
My exterior walls will support 20 tons per linear foot I haven't calculated the side loading ability although I suppose I could It would take a great deal of research, I'd have to calculate the bending strength of the panels, add the bending strength of the timbers, figure some method to calculate to combined strength. (a bundle of straws is far stronger than the combined strength of the individual straw times the number of straws)
I know roof side loads would be really big numbers, given the scissors braces and buttress braces.. (and bridge)
As for the idea that somehow it might take off and fly, You'd first have to calculate the lift numbers. Once you'd give those to me I could use Berneulli's principle and calculate lift factors and tell you exactly what air speed would be needed to lift off.
Oops, I forgot the resistance of the dirt which it would have to be extracted from..
Since there is a ledge on either side of the footings add in the weight of the dirt above the footings plus the resistance of that dirt to get a number..
I've never seen a house that had the footings removed by a tornado, have you?
I'm certain if you used your formula the airliner is resisting much more wind pressure..
NO.
Cdrag = approx 1 for the side of a house with sloped roof (even higher with no sloped roof), did not put it in the orig calcs as it was unity, much smaller for airplanes.
The airplane only sees 500+ mph head on. Even a few 10s of mph in a vertical down draft near landing has crashed planes.
The first 747s had 4 ea engines at about 40,000 # thrust. Current ones are a little over 60k#. Thus, even at 550 mph or so wind speed force is less than 160,000# on a big airplane.
Well under the multimegapounds on a flat braodside surface of a house.
I've never seen a house that had the footings removed by a tornado, have you?
Seen the basement walls blown in. Have seen photos of 'scoured' concrete roadbeds which is similar to a shallow footing. Have seen one radio tower (spfld IL) and one 345 kV transmission line tower (Illiopolis IL) with the concrete footings pulled up out of the ground.
Edited 9/16/2006 12:46 pm ET by junkhound
I think you never see footings get pulled out because the rest of the house goes first.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
JonBlakemore and all,
If you doubt the steength and durability of lag screws vs Nails, please do this simple test.
Build yourself a chair from say 2x4 wood and plywood.. Nail it together.
Next build yourself a chair from similar quailty 2x4's and plywood and screw it together.. Use a screw of similar size to whatever nails you use.
MAKE SURE ALL FASTNERS ARE PROPERLY INSTALLED!
now use them.
use them to stand on, to sit on during lunch or breaks etc.. use them as short sawhorses..
Use them both the same amount, after a month or so tell me which is better.. tell me which is superior..
OCInspector,
Yes, I understand that screws are more than is required to build the average house.. I also understand the time issue involed since much of my house is built with screws.
I had fun this weekend banging together some of the interior walls that are stick built.. I grossly over estimated the time involved. I was thinking in terms of timberframing where you can easily have ten to 12 hours per timber compared to the less than 30 seconds per board in a stick built house..
What a change from a serious grunt and a reminder to lift with your legs and not your back as I heave some 18 foot long oak timber up on a sawhorse. Imagine lifting a board with your fingers! No tenions to cut, no mortices to make, Bang bang with the nail gun and if the joint isn't picture perfect not worring about it since it will soon be covered by sheetrock..
I honestly understand why you are all so dedicated to stick framing.. I simply choose a differant path..
I get the impression that you hold yourself and your self-described skills in much higher regard than anyone else here on this board. You discuss stick-framing in casual and condescending tones. You brag lovingly about the fine timbers you have used to meticulously craft this house.
I understand all about a labor of love. When you are doing it for yourself and not for a client, you can go ballz-out and it doesn't matter how much time or how much cost. And I know that there are proably better ways to build a home. But man, please stop this self-reverential self-referencing. Your approach turns a lot of folks off, I would bet.
And when will you deign us all worthy of seeing this magnificent creation you will be working on until you pass from this world? Surely someone of your skills has learned how to post pictures on this board. Mike Smith has done a whole thread loaded with pix, and he is just a simple stick-framer.
I don't often jump in like this, but your self-love has really turned me off.
Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
I get the impression that you hold yourself and your self-described skills in much higher regard than anyone else here on this board. You discuss stick-framing in casual and condescending tones...I bet your aproach turns a lot of people off.
Amen
Edited 9/12/2006 5:13 pm ET by netanyahu
JJV
Please don't assume anything.. I've made too much fun of myself to have such a label applied. Those who have met me understand that I am not disrespectful of anyone, ( Well, conservative Ice fishermen aside ;-)
I have repeatedly favorably complimented anyone who responds and writes into this magazine.. I hold them in high regard and I couldn't do that if didn't respect all the fine builders (including stick framers..)
I do feel that stick framing is too old fashioned and should be replaced with either SIP's or ICF's However in my response to another's post I commented on how much fun I had this weekend stick framing.. Trust me, I do understand it's attraction..
You've got me, you just listed another one of my failures. I have repeatedly tried to post pictures here and met with failure after failure.. I bought a digital camera primarily to show progress and still failed.
Jessie came here from Montana a couple of weeks ago and took several pictures and promised to post them but as yet hasn't.. The last pictures I got posted were several years ago when I went out to Calfornia and had my buddies son post them for me.. Since it took him over an hour to do and required a great deal of skill. (he makes his living doing stuff like that) I don't feel quite as much of an abject failure.
Self love?
Ahh!
Please note that I've never claimed anything for my skill level. I have commented on the wonderful timbers and the fabulous wood I get to work with, but since I never claimed to invent wood that really isn't about me or my skill level..
Yes I'm excited about working with timbers, who wouldn't be? Yes, I clearly love what I'm doing. Hopefully most who post here do feel the same way about whatever talents they bring to the table.
" I do feel that stick framing is too old fashioned "
how long has timber framing been around? :)
no need to respond..I get your point.
personally I like framing a house, don't know if I'd ever really want to " assemble" one. Thats just me though..I'll take a shelf that I built over something from Ikea any day. Heck I even ripped every piece of trim for my entire house from 4x8 MDF sheets.
alrightythen,
Frankly if it were simply timberframing, I wouldn't be interested.. European timberframes (all but the very newest ones) leak like sieves and are very inefficent to heat and cool. What keeps them so durable is the fact that that air flows so freely thru them the timbers never rot (unlike log homes which trap moisture in the logs)
The appeal of timberframes to me is the use of SIP's. Sure, I get to do some wonderful stuff with the timbers but I'm doing that because I like the look of European timberframes which show timbers to the outside and American timberframes which show timbers to the inside.
The strength stuff is a bonus..
I would like to stick frame a home except that it's such an inefficent method of construction.. (not inefficent to build, inefficent to heat and cool) I've repaired some stick built stuff and have the modern tools etc. that it takes to do the job quickly.
"The appeal of timberframes to me is the use of SIP's. Sure, I get to do some wonderful stuff with the timbers but I'm doing that because I like the look of European timberframes which show timbers to the outside and American timberframes which show timbers to the inside."I am anxious for the opportunity to do a SIP's house someday.
what is SIP?Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
Structural Insulated Panels...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
S.I.P. = structural Insulated PanelAlso called 'panelized construction'. I am sure there are those who know much more about it than me, so I'll stop at what I know for sure: they are a sandwich of plywood or OSB and rigid foam, glued together with the plywood on both sides. It is very strong and at the same time very light and also offers a very high R-value.Those who know more can fill in or correct me.
tmaxxx
A SIP is a structural insulated panel, Basically it's a piece of foam sandwiched between either OSB (Oriented Strand Board {sometimes called wafer board} or plywood. They've been around for over 50 years but only recently have they been used to build homes with..
Their normal use was for walk in freezers, and the timberframers started to use them for their insulational value.. Skeptical building inspectors demanded ratings so they were tested and found to be 200% stronger thasn a typical stick built (built with 2x4's or 2x6's) house is.. In addition there is a much smaller chance of a SIP burning to the ground then a stick built house.
Finally the SIP is extremely efficent at saving energy.. Every place a 2x is placed in a wall the R value of that area drops to around 2.. since often 2x's are doubled up or even mpore for strength reasons that could be an are of say 3 inches by 8 feet that have no insulation. It's worst at the top.. Heat rises and right at the top the top plate is doubled.. Heat just pours out!
A SIP doesn't have that issue..
Whole walls, ceilings, and roofs can be totally free of solid heat conducting wood.
So now they are building houses with SIP's. Skipping the expensive timberframing part.
frenchy, You use a crosscut sled to size your SIPs???
I have invented the EZSIP.
A 24" circ saw on a 32' straight edge
even a canadian kid or a framer can cut dormers with it.
"The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character."
even a canadian kid or a framer can cut dormers with it.
Before i call you a bunch of names, please explain what your problem with Canadians is?Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
they're Canadians????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
tmaxx... ya hadda be there...
dino from EZ-Guide gave us a demo at TipiFest..
the volunteer from the audience was a 14 year old from Montreal
he was perfect.. and had a little showman's flair besides..
Dino wanted to sign him up
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No safety glasses?
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
That's Dino's special splinter and dust mitigating saw. No need for stinking eyewear.
Mike explained it ...
twas a location joke...
actually I hope to stay on the good side of all canuckistanians...
I may need to move there after shrub/rove and co. ruin this country...
How come you didn't take offense at the framer denigration???
I thought you Maple leafs were a kinder gentler folk???
"The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character."
sorry, damn i new i should not have written it that way. i didnt actually think you were being mean, i actually thought you were refering to the original poster which is canadian but just incase, i thought i would check. at least thats what i think i was thinking. it was many hours ago so i cant remember exactly. sorry its the proud canuck in me.
and i didnt get upset about the framer thing because i dont classify myself as a framer. i dont frame houses i build indoor rock climbing walls so my framing work is alot different to everyone elses.Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
MisterT
Sounds like an impressive piece of machinery to me. How do you deal with the issue of foam build up on the blade? Anytime I used a sawblade a lot to saw panels the built up with the melted foam...
NO I was much more modest IF I was extremely worried about the straightness of the cut I would use my circular saw set at a little over 1/2 inch and a straight edge and then finish the cut with the sawzall. If I was just cutting out for a window I'd go straight to the sawzall and a little waveness in the cut would be straightened out with the 2x material. I can saw an amazingly striaght line with a sawzall if I want to
Boss Hog,
It's not advanced math to plug some numbers into a simple formula. If I use a calculator I don't even make simple addtion mistakes..
I think your memory has failed you! It might be worth your effort to get the article out of the attic and reread it, then give us all the reference numbers and pages to back up your opinion on this point. The article you 'remember' may have been in regard to attaching a railing post to a deck with lag screws and Simpson brackets, or some similar situation but not common 2X framing techniques.
No Woodway,
I clearly remember the article, I've discussed this countless times before and will repeat it for you.. If you buy a copy of FINE hOME bUILDING'S book on roofing it clearly discusses exactly what I said..
To repeat it again it dealt with the various methods used to attach rafters to top plates.. It gave not only the cost of the fastner but also the labor time required to use said fastners.
The book is still available and since you are using Fine Home Buildings web site I feel it's not too far out of line to suggest that you support the company that did the reseach for this article.. Buy the book! You will honestly learn something..
You made me do it!
Article was fine home buildings book on framing roofs. second printing 1998 page 126 Please! get the book and read it..
Edited 9/12/2006 5:58 pm ET by frenchy
Found two relevant FHB articles on this:
April '92 FHB: "Strengthening Plate-to-Rafter Connections" by Stanley H. Niu
Dec. '90 FHB: "Riding Out the Big One" by Ralph Gareth Gray
Niu's findings are that the weakest rafter to plate connection was an 8d toenailed connection, with an average failure at 208 lb of uplift force. Sometimes, the connections failed because the bottom of the rafter split before the toenails pulled out of the top plate, particularly when 16s were used.
The tests also included 2 different sizes of lag screws. "The lags were run through the rafter and 3" into the plates; a washer was included."
Niu states that an 1,800 sq. ft. hip roof (with 16" oc rafters and a 3/12 pitch), when subject to basic Missouri wind speeds of 75mph, will experience 31,824 lbs uplift. Dividing this by 86 rafter to plate connections yields a 370 lb uplift load per connection.
Same house on the South Carolina coast, where the basic wind speed is 100mph, will experience a per connection uplift load of 957 lbs. Hurricane Hugo, at 125mph, generated uplift loads of 1,496 lbs per connection.
According to the author, only Simpson's H7 connector or a 3/8"x8" lag screw with washer would have withstood Hugo.
Carry on.
Edit: of course, for these forces to be transmitted to the rafter birdsmouths, the sheeting has to stay on.... lol.
Edited 9/11/2006 11:17 pm ET by Pierre1
well damn, if we gotta start using 8" lags to hold down rafters, what the hell is needed to hold the plywood down?
Applying const. adhesive to roof sheeting would be a royal pita, and costly in time and materials. Probably beneficial though.
I guess it all ends at the foundation. ;)
Carps pay lots of attention to load paths (compressive load forces and shear seismic forces). They correct for tensile forces such as those that pull walls or roof planes apart, but uplift forces caused by wind are less well attended to.
Where to draw the line?
What "line" do you live on?I can understand someone in FL being concerned with adding a little extra hardware to secure their home. But if you live in Michigan, there's really no benefit to know that you can sustain 125 mph winds.Another thing, even if you could secure your roof so it would withstand a direct tornado hit, I imagine you may almost rather have the whole place be blown away with all the roof/siding/window replacements, water damage sustained, and all sorts of other problems you cannot avoid unless you build a bunker.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Southern Rocky Mountains in British Columbia.
We get wind, but I doubt it ever exceeds 50mph in the valley bottom. We do pay attention to snow loads though, on new const. anyhow. Lots of 80y.o. homes are sway-backed because their roofs were lightly built. But they're still standing.
East of here, the foothills are subject to powerful and frequent downslope winds. But there's much much less snowload. Apparently, they build accordingly.
I feel the best use of expensive resources is to build to the conditions that prevail rather than to conditions that may occur once in a couple centuries. That's what insurance and funeral homes are for. :(
Whatever the standard is, it must be adhered to: full nailing and adhesive schedules, properly sized fasteners, sheeting overlaps at the rims, etc. Then we are delivering value and integrity to the customer.
> But if you live in Michigan, there's really no benefit to know that you can sustain 125 mph winds.Windstorms with 100+MPH wind gusts are not unheard of here in MN. Probably a once every 20-50 year event. Doesn't require hurricane level protection, but a bit more than common construction practices or you can end up missing part of your roof. (Tornados are a fair bit rarer, and more difficult to protect from.)
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Just out of curiousity, when these windstorms occur, how do the homes without 3/8" lags securing the trusses hold up?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
In terms of significant structural damage (beyond stuff like shingles, shutters, and, of course, plastic siding) they'll typically lose part of a roof. Loss of sheathing is probably the most common cause, but I have seen a few trusses go as well. Never seen an entire roof gone (on a regular home, not an outbuilding) except due to a tornado.A lot has to do with your exposure, of course. In newer subdivisions where there aren't many trees (or other homes) to slow the wind the effect is at its worst. In older areas the trees do more damage.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
have Cloudhidden do the roof...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yup, you took his name right outta my mouth. His domes make more sense than frame structures if you just have to resist the really big forces of nature, like tornadoes, storm surge, etc.
PL and 3"truss head screws or at least K-lath type...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
12" lags.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
"Properly installed toenailed rafters come off at 208 pounds of force. A 3/8ths inch lag bolt increases the holding power to well over 3000 pounds.. That's one that's just rammed in, no pilot hole no shank hole.."
I'm trying to understand how you "ram" a 3/8 lag bolt into/through a rafter, without destroying it. You got any pics of this? I can see a roofing crew with bags of lag bolts and 10 pound mauls...
HammerHarry,
Grab an impact wrench and run the lag bolt in.. I used the word rammed rather than screwed because no pilot hole was drilled, no shank hole was made..
To gain full strength you'd need to drill a pilot hole and a shank hole. Both are differant sizes..
Oh, so you mean "screwed in", not "rammed in".
HammerHarry,
There is a right way and a wrong way to do most things.. if you run a screw in with an impact wrench without drilling the pilot hole and shank hole you can properly be critizied for such a technique.
Hence my use of the word Rammed rather than screwed..
Now in a practical sense given the main job of a contractor is to make a profit rather than do things to the most correct level, If I were the contractor who was selected to install lag screws in this case I'd just ram them in too.
(It won't work with larger lags into dry white oak so I had to drill both a pilot hole and a shank hole)
Now in a practical sense given the main job of a contractor is to make a profit rather than do things to the most correct level,
Sorry, I disagree with this statement. Contractors are in the business to make a profit, no doubt, but to imply we do so at the expense of correct building practices is just wrong, and ignorant. Any good contractor will know that it is in his/her best (personal and professional) interest to do the best job that they can. Otherwise, call-backs and a poor reputation and imminent business failure are looming in the future.
And just who defines what is the 'most correct level', if there is such a thing? The building codes offer the minimum; reasonable and higher expectations and personal standards might very well spur someone on further. But the codes are our guidelines, they are what we are held accountable for.
To generally state that all contractors do not do their job 'in the most correct level' is irresponsible, given you have no clue as to the level of any of them, save a few you might have run into along the way.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
NickNukeEm,
Please don't make assumptions!
I never said that any reputable contractor would cut corners. Let me repeat it for you.. the prime job of a contractor is to make a profit..
No place does that imply anything like what you assumed..
Yes there are some disreputable contractors who will cut corners but I honestly don't believe than anyone who is interested in Fine Home Building would be such a contractor..
you seemed to have left the last part off of your qoute there frenchy
Now in a practical sense given the main job of a contractor is to make a profit rather than do things to the most correct level,
Which does very much imply that contractors are out to cut corners.
Actually, I thought that was a hallmark of a proffesional - one that sets them apart from the amatures/DIY/weekend warriors: Wisdom.
Wisdom - as in wisdom to know when to stop doing the job. This type of wisdom is very important for schedualing time and projects, as well as use of materials.
One example of this was pointed out along time ago - I think in my post about the differences between amatures and pros: Vacuming out the stud bay. What will vacuming out a stud bay that is covered by sheetrock do, besides burn up some clock? Nothing. I vacume mine because I'm a dumbazz DIY, not a smart and pennywise pro!
Another situation - shear wall construction: There are a number of fastening scheduals you can choose to use on a shearwall, from the basic 6" on edge and 12" in the field, all the way up to 2" on edge and 4" in the field. The 2"/4" wall will unquestionable have a better strength than the 6"/12" wall. A pro should know enought to do at least what the engineer calls for... and maybe a slight bit more if he has a gut feeling it's a little weak... but not make a 2"/4" wall when a 6"/12" will do.
frenchy wuz calling you smart, ya callin him a laer?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
CAGIV
You really are a hoot!
The very next sentence said it, jez, that sounds like I think I'm better than you!
I went on to carefully explain what I really meant and tried to keep it light.
You must really dig to find something to offend yourself with..
It will help in the future to remember that we aren't all a bunch of lawyers here. we're chatting. Hopefully I can offer something back for all the help I've recieved..
Sure I have a differant opinion of stick framing,, we live in a pluralistic society where differances live side by side and they are actually celebrated.
Isn't it nice that all homes aren't the same, why would you ever expect the builders to be the same?
frenchy,
I wasn't insulted, just stating my gut reaction to your statement
I'd bet if you asked 9/10 contractors would feel the same way
i think what he was trying to say was that after a certain point everything becomes OVERKILL...
At least here that's true.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Making claims about screws being better than nails is more complex than you imagine.One can read the FEMA saferoom specs. They require screws for fastening plywood. Of course 3" screws are required. As are 2 layers of 3/4" plywood plus 1 layer of 14g sheet metal..A quick look at the National Design standard for Wood Construction will lead one to believe that screws are suitable. Perhaps best used for timbers larger than are normally found in stick framing.---internet enginering is not the best money can buy.
Ever built one of those Fema safe rooms?
Went through at least 10 drill bits and almost killed my drill.
It was an almost fun project until you had to screw everything off 3" O.C.
Tell him the only way to go is to peg the framing.
DanH
Pegging isn't really permitted either.. properly done pegs need to be tightened in the winter and loosened in the summer, due to the swelling/ shrinking of wood thru the seasons..
In addition there are fire code issues. Pegs are the first failure point in a fire. Nails or other metal fasteners are insulated and allow extra time before failure..
Timberframed homes in Europe require metal connectors and then wood insulators (phoney pegs) due to that very reason.
ohhhhhh all those unattended unsafe structures out there....
you can't be serious frenchy....
back this one up....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IMERC
Fine Home Building issue on roofing..
Buy it. Towards the back.
I love it. Peg framing.Wouldn't mortise and tenon framing be a step above that? Why use screws when you can mortise?
White oak double dovetailed with ironwood pegs and stainless toelags with epoxy end grain sealer and epoxy defect filler, polyurethane glued and simpson stainless steel connectors on all joints, with a few wraps of aircraft cable embedded into bedrock would be strong. Wouldn't it?
Wasn't someone here talking about a screw shank nail for coil nailers?
Use them for a happy medium for both people.
Throw in a few toelags for good measure though, uplift is a major concern on interior partitions.
What the problem is?
all this talk makes we want to go into concrete work
Good money in that stuff, like pouring liquid gold for flatwork. Too bad I hate doing it.
What the problem is?
I don't know... we had a small foundation pour the other day...
Guy in charge stood there and pointed with coffee in hand with three grunt kids in the hole doing his bidding...
I could be the boss.. ;)
I would have to speak spanish to be the boss of a flatwork crew around here.
The crews consist of one guy that speaks english and ten guys that point to him when someone asks them a question.
What the problem is?
Hot trowing though
And I thought I went all out with the hot dipped galv. nails on the sills?!
Well, that works for me. I'm not too screwy.
Edited 9/11/2006 11:01 pm ET by MarkH
bigger bottom line...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I agree with one of the other posts, if they want screws tell them to open the wallet!! _______________________________________________________________________
I've used coated nails that hold like there is no tomorrow. Tried to take a closet wall down to move it a day later. Busted my hump trying to get that damn framing apart. Eventually got there with a 3' pry bar.
Now these were hand driven nails. They seemed to have a LOT better holding power than the dipped nails used by most guns.
I'd turn to hand nailing with coated nails, before I'd pick up the screw gun. Either way, you'd have to increase price to pay for the increase time.
and then he says, only if you hand screw them in too... right? could you use those UFO nail gun screw/nails... they look intriguing...
if the HO has deep pokets we screw it together...
use 4 or 4.5" screws... use 6" GRK's...
if somebody has the bucks and will part with them.. a line will form made up of people willing to deliver on the request...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
OK, I will bite. We should also suggest wetting out the ends of the lumber with epoxy and the adding epoxy with high strength filler to all of the gaps as well. Then hand screw.
With moisture cure polyurethane glue on all mating surfaces...
anything to get a really awesome bottom line...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Don't forget to sand those plates, studs, headers, corners, Ts, joist and rafters. Wouldn't the framing last longer if we primed and painted after sanding?
Tell them that tests show that ring shank nails actually hold as well or better than screws (http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1998/ramme98c.pdf#search=%22threaded%20nails%22), and I've shot 3 1/4" ones from my Senco SN60 (http://www.doityourself.com/icat/nailpnmstck314). The old gun won't shoot 3 1/2" RS nails, but I understand their new guns will. They cost more, but won't slow you down like shooting screws.
I worked on a 50', WWII Navy launch that was nearly impossible to disassemble for repairs. She'd been fastened with ring shank, monel nails - probably driven by hand with a hammer and nail set. Those boats fastened with screws, usually silicone bronze, held no better.
Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
Edited 9/11/2006 8:38 pm by GaryW
That document compares ring shank nails with screw shank nails, not screws. I've seen an Australian test that compared ring and screw shank, as well as a number of others... last tested was a #10 SS screw. It basicly had 10 times the holding capacity of any of the nails.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I can remember the days when we could get ring shank nails that held so well that we did not glue the subfloor and the nails may or may not be able to be pulled. Those nails held!!!
picking up on the discussion with Framer..some HO are an odd sort ( like anybody I guess)
We once framed a 7000 sq ft home in West Van completely with galvanized gun nails because someone had told the owner that they are better because they won't rust.
if you've got so much mositure in your home that you gotta worry bout nails rusting - then you got a lot bigger problem than that. But hey, his money I guess.
Just for the heck of it, I tried testing ring shanks on some 5/4 T&G flooring. It seemed to work great. I would have needed a crowbar to get the board up. Think I could keep using them to nail down the flooring out on my open covered porch?
Sure. If moisture is an issue, you can get stainless ring shanks. Google SwanSecure.
-- J.S.
The issue is not if you need a crowbar to pull them now, the issue is if you need a crowbar to pull them up 10 years from now.
Has anyone every looked back at a deck project years later and wished they had nailed it down instead of screwing it down?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
I can see screwing sheet goods, but lets keep the screws for metal studs! Thats just moronic thinking.
-Lou
Edited 10/23/2007 6:21 am ET by loucarabasi
He was talking about floor, not framing.
... And it's "moronni thinking", BTW, because I'm using my noodle ;)Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
Actually I have, My son put down a PT (I wanted him to use Trex) 10years 2 months ago. We just took it up to put the addition on his house, reused the screws on the new deck framing. 75% were fine, the 25% that we could not use were because his helper stripped the heads when he put them in. Used DeckMates, he is less than 1 mile from the Atlantic in Florida.
Could be worse -- they could ask for screws _and_ glue at every joint.
The biggest issue I have with framers are the guys who shoot hundreds of nails into sheathing, and about 30% of them actually hit a stud.
70% of hundreds ain't bad.
I hear ya there...had a young guy under me once.. I told him he was missing ( sheathing roof) he said he could tell when he missed and double nailed. I got the labourer kid to pop all the rows he missed, so he could see just how accurate he was.....
"Now NAIL em up" I said
didn't expect to open up such a can of worms.
seems like you have several breads of HO the ones with " no clue" the ones with "no clue who think they have a clue" and there are the ones with a clue, some of which are very capable.
They see Mike Holms on TV using screws for half the stuff he builds so they think it has to be right. ( "lets make it right" Mike says) Not knocking Mike I think he's Great....but he doesnt always talk about what it costs to do it right....or what he charges for using screws, so people are left wondering why something takes time to be done properly and is not cheap. They marvel when something goes up in a flash and say wow look at that, see how fast that went up!
I think I just Hijacked my own thread , lol
I confess - I like screws! For remodel where the studs have turned to stone. Now, if I had a framing gun it would be different, but hand nailing in those situations will often cause more damage (popping sheetrock, etc...).
Spent Saturday hand driving 16d HDG commons into p.t. fir - 36 nails per post for all the Simpson brackets. Now that was fun! Ain't going anywhere though! Boy, this 57 y.o. body just doesn't bounce back like it used to - LOL!
Same here -- reframed the downstairs bath almost totally with DW screws. (Now I'd use deck screws, but this was pretty much before deck screws were invented.) When you've got all of ten inches to swing a hammer, screws work out a lot better.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
"I confess - I like screws! For remodel where the studs have turned to stone. Now, if I had a framing gun it would be different, but hand nailing in those situations will often cause more damage (popping sheetrock, etc...)."
I won't argue that, I too would use screws in some of that old petrified wood if I didn't use nail guns.
find an old SN4 cannon and use 20d's...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm not so sure about Mike Holmes... I used to like him, but he just grates me the wrong way lately.
actually they seemed to have changed the show, it looks different they have gone with wide vision and the music is different...the feel of the show is not the same.
so who is Mike Holmes...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
http://www.holmesonhomes.com/
something tells me that I'm glad I haven't TV....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
mike homes is a contractor who has a show on hgtv canada and goes around fixes other contractors screw-ups
Hello fellow B.C.er. try this. nail as normal then go back after and toenail with screws or use simpson ties. I use the simpson a35 or a34 all the time and they add HUGE strength and if you have a hanger gun, they are real fast to install. again they can go in after normal framing with nails. does what they want and adds only a short amount of time. the other thing you could do is hand them a box of 100 3" screws and say '10 bucks' then hand them a box of 2500 nails and say '30 bucks, any questions?'
im with you on mike holmes. he has made some of my jobs a pain in the azz. crazy stay at home moms with nothing better to do and think they can be your teacher after watching guys like him. his points can be good but he works in a fantasy world and its hard to convince customers that that's not how its done in the real world. plus his stuff looks good on camera but they have shown some close ups and he deffinatley is NOT a fine home builder.
good luck and thanks for the thread. i like the ones that cause some turbulance.Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
""try this. nail as normal then go back after and toenail with screws or use simpson ties.""Why would you do something like that?Nailing is already strong enough because every house and addition is framed with nails unless some crazy homeowners decide to frame his addition himself and thinks screws are stronger.Your saying to nail and then go back and screw, then add simpson ties.You’re suggesting doing three steps in a step job. Hangers are necessary if they're specked on the plans. Nailing a 2x and then screwing it doesn't make any sense. Even if a homeowner suggested it, I would never do it. It's one way or the other. If I was asked to screw a addition together, forget about what the labor would be. I would ask an Architect before I did it anyway.Joe Carola
Edited 9/14/2006 12:34 pm ET by Framer
Joe, this has become an exploration of the fantastic, not something that has to make sense. Don't let your expectations get too high.
David,I don't expect anything from screws vs nail threads, especially when a HO suggest it being stronger. No one could ever convince me in a million years that screws would be stronger than nails for framing houses and additions. I just find this kind of talk useless.If it was the case, all Architects and Engineeres would being designing houses using screws, it's that simple. I'll change any way of framing the future brings up, but until someone draws a set of plans saying that a house has to be framed with all screws and no nails, these type of threads I will read but they will go in one ear and pout the other.Joe Carola
Edited 9/14/2006 6:32 pm ET by Framer
Pay attention.
the original poster was asked to frame with screws. i am suggesting that if his customer wants things held together with screws for the added strength, then he can assemble with nails then go back and increase the strength with screws or simpson hangers to satisfy his customer and save himself alot of time and hassle. its way faster to frame with nails than screws and it would olny take a few added hours to add the screws after rather than trying to assmble from the start with screws.Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
"Pay attention."To what?? I heard you the first time.""the original poster was asked to frame with screws. i am suggesting that if his customer wants things held together with screws for the added strength, then he can assemble with nails then go back and increase the strength with screws or simpson hangers to satisfy his customer and save himself alot of time and hassle.""Now I'm hearing you again saying the same thing. What makes you think screwing after you get done framing with nails(which is all you need and is STRONG ENOUGH) will be stronger?Why even suggest this to the homeowner. It's either one way or the other, it can't be both nailing and screwing studs.Adding all those screws AFTER the nails will just weaken the wood. I toe-nail with 4 nails, two on each side of the stud. Now suggesting to the HO by putting x amount of screws on each side next to my two nails does what for strength?Joe Carola
Again, pay attention. have you read this thread and what its about?
we all know houses framed with nails is strong enough but his customer wants screws. im not saying this is stronger just a way to satisfy his customer and to make it easier for him.
and please read this line again.
"nail as normal then go back after and toenail with screws or use simpson ties."
when framing we normally nail through the 2x into the end of the stud.Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
""Again, pay attention. have you read this thread and what its about?""""we all know houses framed with nails is strong enough but his customer wants screws. im not saying this is stronger just a way to satisfy his customer and to make it easier for him.""The customer wants the house screwed. Why suggest nails and screws??""and please read this line again."" ""nail as normal then go back after and toenail with screws or use simpson ties."when framing we normally nail through the 2x into the end of the stud.""I read it and it still makes no sense after the first time I read it.Read what I wrote to you in my last post again.Why even suggest this to the homeowner. It's either one way or the other; it can't be both nailing and screwing studs.Adding all those screws AFTER the nails will just weaken the wood.I toe-nail with 4 nails, two on each side of the stud. Now suggesting to the HO by putting x amount of screws on each side next to my two nails does what for strength, it has to weaken the wood, right?Answer that question.You nail through the 2x into the end of the stud and I toe-nail. So that means we're both nailing the stud home at maximum strength.Why are you suggesting adding screws to that???Even if the customer suggested it, it's wrong. The customer can't always get what they want, when what they want is wrong!!
Joe Carola
I should have realized on your first message to me. if you dont listen to your customers then your not going to listen to me either.Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
"I should have realized on your first message to me. if you dont listen to your customers then your not going to listen to me either."Now that was Brilliant!So you’re trying to twist this whole thing all around and say that I don't care about making my customers happy and listen to them. That is the furthest thing from the truth.I should’ve realized that you’re the type of guy that will say "Yes, Yes, Yes, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, I will do anything you ask even if it's wrong, I will do it". I'll nail your studs and then add more screws and split the wood and weaken the wood for you to make you happy!Why would anyone listen to someone who's suggesting to people nail off the framing and then go back and screw it off also.Your logic, is because it makes the customer happy. Yes, we want to make our customers happy. When will you get it through your head that they can be told that what they want is wrong?If a customer didn't trust the studs at 16" centers and asked you to put them a 8" centers, are you going to tell them that when your done framing 16" centers that they can go back and nail studs in between the bays, "To make the Customer Happy".....The customer is not always right when what they want is wrong, especially with framing!Joe Carola
Edited 9/15/2006 12:49 pm ET by Framer
Hey Joe - a bit off topic here - I agree that 4 toe-nails from stub into bottom plate/shoe has way more pull out strength than two nails through the shoe from the bottom before standing up the wall.
My question is this, when I shot toe nails with my PC350, I usually manage to blow apart the bottom of the stud. What rookie technique mistake am I making?
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
I read through about 1/2 of this discussion. Regarding stick framing with screws, one could also make the argument that all framing lumber should be cypress because of its exceptional durability. Wastewater pipes should also be gold plated because of the metal's extreme resistance to corrosion. And, there is no doubt that cypress lumber and gold pipes are "better" in some instances. The thing is though that 99% of professionals deliver value, not what is precieved to better by a few, regardless of the cost. There is always that 1% though who build for the hollywood stars who get whatever they want because they have disposible cash.
If a structure needs strength beyond normal framing techniques an engineer or architect specifies various framing anchors. I've never heard of screws being required, for example, for stud attachment. Lags might be required in some critical girder connection, but even that would be an extremely rare occurrence in residential frame construction. Large screws would be more common in post and beam type construction where large members require larger than the normal 12p or 16p nails, but even then, brackets of some type would often be used.<!----><!----><!---->
Here is my over all impression. I think the question was more regarding how to handle unrealistic customer expectations than about construction techniques. Although, after reading carefully, it seems that the original question was more hypothetical than real, just the fact that framing with screws was discussed in a serious manner is ridiculous. Worse yet, it makes this whole web seem like a joke.
I get that we are all looking for better ways boo build, but come on, let's get real here.... Let's discuss something that needs to be fixed, and leave the discussions about weather the moon is made out of green cheese to the kiddy chat rooms and the weirdo alternative lifestyle web sites.
Mark_T
You are correct, most people want value but fail to recognize it..
Cheap plastic siding may look OK when it's new and simulate the look of much more expensive redwood siding but I don't see the wealthy specify vinyl siding.
Gold plated may sound like an extravagence but if you can afford it there is at least a reason to specify it.
It's hard for us working stiffs to understand the wants and appetites of those who have an excess of disposable income.
To a degree it's the old keeping up with the Jones thing, but done on a level most of us can't begin to understand..
In England a freshly restored vintage car all shiney and brigte may seem like a good thing, especially when you look at the rcost of restoration exceeding six figures and maybe even triple that.
However the real "IN" people all understand that actually decreases it's market value..
To the real in crowd you not only need a particular make model and year of car but also the correct serial number.. A Jaguar "D"type might be worth around $750,000 but if it was OKV 504 it's suddenly worth over $3 million..
Now back to building, There is no such thing as an average person..
One "average person may want a Cape Cod style house while another wants an rambler.. still another wants a Tudor and let's not forget the modernist.
They all want abetter "deal" then the next guy got so they accept cheap or imatation instead of real value..
The average age of an American house before it's torn down or so dramatically remodeled as to be nearly torn down is 56.
If someone wants their home to age better than that and is willing to spend the money who are you to tell them they shouldn't have it?
You are not getting enough bite into the wood, and/or, if you are using too large a shank nails, that can contribuet - say .141.
The DIY will always love screws because they do not have the skill and experience to swing a hammer and sink a nail. The advent of the cordless screw gun has empowered them .
I had a fool do some temporary bracing once and the idiot used screws. Instead of knocking it off with one swing of the hammer I had to unscrew the bracing.
Building forms with screws always bothers me too .. The tip fills with concrete so stripping the forms can get frustrating. I hate that.
I like nails because it makes wood salvaging much easier. Every try to extract a bent rusty screw?
I like to nail decks too. I will only do it on my own house though because screwing decks is the standard now. Too bad. It makes salvaging that wood in the future a lot harder and most of it ends up in a landfill eventually.
On the west coast the toenail rafter to plate connection was abandoned a long time ago. Hurricane ties are the standard. My engineer likes the H2.5. Go look it up. Add a shear panel and anchor bolts and the house is now one piece.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
Mike Callahan,
Hmm,,,. you make a lot of assumptions Mike.. Do you know that I can't swing a hammer and hit a nail? Or was that just an assumption?
Well, sorry but I can.. I'm getting old now and can't hit with the force I used to. I used to be able to drive them with the pro's (although with the advent of nail guns I see fewer and fewer pros reach into the tool belt for bulk nails,,. One framer I know still had bulk nails in a keg from the 50's
Hacks are hacks the world over.. I've seen pro's strip out more than a few screws putting them in and I know for a fact that every one of my thousands of screws is carefully put in..
( You need to drill a pilot hole and a shank hole for every long screw that goes into white oak otherwise they twist off even hardened ones) I also counter bore and lube the threads because i found that not lubing them meant I couldn't get them all the way tight..
I've seen more than a few stripped deck screws installed by so called pro's and some carefully done ones done by complete amatures..
NO not all pros are bad or poor, nor are all amatures.. the only way to really tell is to look at their work.. it's not about getting paid
"he has made some of my jobs a pain in the azz. crazy stay at home moms with nothing better to do and think they can be your teacher after watching guys like him. his points can be good but he works in a fantasy world and its hard to convince customers that that's not how its done in the real world."I had that happen on a jon one time where the home owner was always there watching all day long.What I finally did was to get a friend to help me finish the job quickly. We had so many people on the job that the home owner couldn't keep up with everything going. His wife told him to come in the house. He did and we got the job done.It has been good for a laugh all these years. It was not so funny at the time.
we we're replacing all the cabinet doors and drawer fronts in a kitchen not that long ago, and the H/O decided he wanted to help with every step of the way... The job was tanking quick because he was making things take twice as long as they needed too.When the job was "almost" finsished I decided to head over there to help move things along, He was a nice as can be older man so I didn't want to tell him he had to leave, I decided to give him a "job" to do to keep him busy and it worked out great.
Where is the building inspector?
I have been asked the same thing and then ask them "Why change that which has been successful? Nails have worked for years. It seems if there were problems, we may need to make a change and spend more money, but what is the problem with nails?"
Screws do have stronger withdrawl strength, but vastly lower shear strength. The WWPA design manual would require screws so large that we would call them lags. Show him this by nailing a 16d through a 2 x 4, Then drive a 2-1/2 or 3" screw through the same board. Stand it up and hit each with your hammer sideways. The nail will bend and bounce. The screw will snap off! The process of casting or machining screws makes inherent shear planes that can weaken the structure. When winds cause a structural failurer it is allmost allways via shear failure.
My other answer is allways the same: Sure we can do anything you want, It's just a matter of cost.
I don't mind using screws for basement wall framing and other non-structural uses, (when paid for it,) but will never frane a house this way
The problem with that comparison is that it is a false one. The screws, made of hardend steel, will have a lower shear value when impacted by hardend steel.
Now, how many hardend steel joists are you putting together with nails? My guess is none. On the other hand, I bet you use alot of soft wood, sometimes supported by soft steel - as in Simpson or USG connector hardware. When hardened steel is used in softer products, the give happens in the surrounding materials that have - in the case of wood - a natural elasticity. Instead of shearing due to concentrated stress on one point, the forces get distributed further along the fastener. The load gets distributed further through the material.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
These nail/screw questions are silly.
As I cruise through this thread you "nailed" right on the head. Homes relie on the shear strength of its fastners.
The process of casting or machining screws makes inherent shear planes that can weaken the structure.
The screws you use in construction are neither cast or machined. They are cold worked and conform to ANSI B18.6.4 for dimensional and performance requirements and SAE J933 for material requirments. During a forging operation the grain patterns flow according to the forming dies and punches maintaining the grain boundary. The reason they have weaker shear strength is due to case hardening. If you would cut a cross section of a crew and use a micro hardness tester you would see different ratings for case and core hardness. This hardness is non ductile and will fracture very easily compared to a non hardened (softer) metal.
I hate guys who know what they're talking about. :-)
sorry
I only saw one poster mention earthquakes as a reason to not use screws. Here on the west coast I doubt screws would even be allowed. There holding power drops dramatically when the back and forth action of an earthquake snaps them.
Many years ago FHB had an article about the perfection of the 16 penny sinker. Its flexibility was one of its best qualities. Find that article and let your customer read it and you can get back to work. Actually, it seems a lot of posters could benefit from reading that article. It had some great info.
Oh, yes they will:View ImageThose are all McFeelys #10 1.5" round washer heads, and all approved by the head of the Building inspectors here. (and No I would not have cut the rafters the way I did if I did it again. I was just repeating the mistake of the previous roof framer).
I'd love to check out that article you mentioned, do you have an issue number?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
any idea how long ago that article was?
I looked some this morning and couldn't find it. It was probably in the early 90s. I did find an earthquake article in #64 and a very comprehensive nail article in #85. Neither was the blurb on sinkers that I remember, which was not an article as much as a paragragh or two in one of the special sections.
Framer,
Wow! Did you ever reach to get that! Read the whole thing.. Simply because I say something doesn't mean that you should twist or alter it to make it sound like something it wasn't.
That's simply not a way to have an informed discussion.
ps if you read the whole thing you'd have an answer to your question.. I made that same aguement myself.. even put a little smiley face so people wouldn't think I took myself too seriously..
I'm just playing with you Frenchy.Joe Carola
I don't even know why you should let a stupid question like that get you hung up. YOu are the expert. You frame to industry standard and to code, period. If screws were a great idea everyone would be doing it.
Many screws do not have the shear strength that nails provide nor the ability to hold the volume of material that a typical framing fastener, say, a 16d nail can hold.
Also, the Simpson Tie company isn't making a fortune selling or perfecting the screw framing system, because there is none.
I've beat this horse to death I think.
I wasn't hung up...it just came up, and I was curious about other opinions in the Biz.
Oh. I couldn't imagine how someone couldn't dodge this question and was pretty surprised. I've had people ask us about one versus the other on decks, but framing?? But I've got a customer right now asking a million and one, "I read in a magazine..." questions.
It wasn't even a question....I had framed an addition for the guy, and he did some back framing screwing everything together. I said dude I could of brought my guns over and done that in 2 seconds for ya.
(posters assumed it was for my time to frame a whole house or something - I didn't bother to clarify because, for one thing nobody asked. and secondly, it had lead to some interesting and imformative discussion - plus by time I got back to the board the thread had already taken off )
He said he likes screws. He had never asked me to use them. we were talking about other things so we didn't get into it, since it was his time and not mine. ( so yeah..I guess I dodged it ..lol)
my thoughts on the subject have been reflected in the posts on the pro nails side. I just wanted to hear opinions. I like to hear peoples opinions, because you often learn something, even if they differ from your own.
I too have dealt with the nails/screws situation regarding decks, I give 2 prices, one for nails, one for screws.
leave it to a woman to wonder whats really going on at the heart of the situation :P
Edited 9/13/2006 2:20 am ET by alrightythen
Edited 9/13/2006 9:52 am ET by alrightythen
"I too have dealt with the nails/screws situation regarding decks, I give 2 prices, one for nails, one for screws."I bought a senco duraspin with a stand-up attachment and prefer using screws to nails anyday now. ALthough we put down some Trex one year in a very cold November and had to drill and countersink, then place screw. That was labor intensive."leave it to a woman to wonder whats really going on at the heart of the situation :P"I don't know if that's an insult or not :)
it was an insult....
to us fellas :)
If they want the security of a fastener with exceptional withdrawal power you should tout the value of ring shank nails to them. Senco makes them for their framing guns and they are pretty much one way fasteners... that is to say that they will not come out in most cases... if you have to remove a piece their heads will pull through the wood before it will back the nail out. You might also explain that most nails are utilized in a manner that exploits their shear strength (rather than their withdrawal strength) and that nails shear strength is superior to that of screws (which are more brittle). It might also be helpful to show and explain the hot glue system for framing nails which is activated by the friction when the framing gun drives the nail into the wood at high speed.
This would be my approach. Fight ignorance with education. A little glimpse of the economic issues could also be helpful but is not as direct an answer to the customer's concerns. They want their house to be solid and secure and your job is to convince them that you are the man they want to accomplish that goal and that you have the specialized knowledge and skills to do it in an excellent manner. By addressing their concerns in a kind and enlightened way you will also make it clear to them that here is a man they can trust with their dreams. Treat them as friends as well as customers and they will become such. Do this on job after job and you will have far more offers of work than you can possibly fulfill. You'll also have a lot of friends who are sometimes customers ... but always friends. This will not make your life perfect, but it will make it richer.
nice response..I think your bang on aboutthe ring shank..seen old decks that were hand nailed with ring shanks and no glue, dang near impossible to pull up. you end cutting the ply either side of the joists to have any luck at it.
Alrightythen,
I didn't read all the posts, but I do know that nails and screws are designed differently in the sense that they have different shear rates. A nail will handle a lot more load before failing than a screw in general. Now there are many different types of screws. I think the range of strength would make it nearly impossible for an inspector to know what type is ok and what type is not. Framing nails are framing nails and are designed and manufactured to a standard. what about ring shanks as a compromise?
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
They don't meet code.