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The question about making windows out of glass bottles got me thinking. I have glass of several types. I can collect plenty of glass. What I am thinking about is crushing the glass, and then melting it into a form. I would like to end up with thick windows. I am interested in getting the light in through the glass, and not with being able to see through it. Matter of fact, the less clearly it can be seen through, the better… to a point.
This would probably be a matter of crushing and melting the glass into the form little by little. Adding glass as I aquired it. Until the form was full, and the glass thick.
I figure that if I torch the old glass before I pour the new into/onto it, there should be little problem with getting the old and new to ‘meld’. But… what I need to know is what to use to make the form, especialy the form bottom, to assure the glass will come off of it, and better yet, be fairly smooth.
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Geez, that sounds fantastic! I wonder about the melting point of glass? Didn't the early steel makers have to get their furnace specs. from the ones used by glass makers? I understand those guys struggled to get things melted, so the glass people who knew how to make things REAL HOT, got to help. But now, I guess we have the technology. I'm way curious though.
fv
*As long as yer not concerned with melting the whole thing at once, it's not that hard to do. Take an ordinary glass bottle. Beer bottle, water glass, etc. Now set a propane torch up with a nice hot, blue tip to the flame. Set the torch up in a solid position, with the tip of the blue flame trained on a particular spot on the bottle. Now sit back and watch how quickly a spot will melt on the glass.
*Not to rain on your parade, but all glass is not created equal and different glass bodies must be compatible to fuse and not break/shatter. Artists who work in hot glass media have to be very careful when combining glass; they can't just pick colors and go for it.
*Damn !! Where'd I put my umbrella.
*You must have missed chemistry class Luka; didn't you have to make a pipette by 'softening' a glass tube over a Bunsen burner ? In any case, the current popular method for making glass is to pour molten glass onto a "river" of liquid tin; this is called float glass. In antiquity, glass was made by melting glass in a crucible; taking the ball onto a blow-pipe and making a very large bubble; then, while the glass was still soft, attaching a rod to the 'top' of the bubble, cutting the bubble off the blow-pipe, then spinning the buble on the rod until it flattened out into a disk. I've made quilt glass by cutting the tops and bottoms off straight-sided wine bottles, cutting then down one side with a torch and then warming up the glass enough to have it open up and flatten out on a piece of stainless, then you "weld" the pieces together by getting the edges molten and jaming them together.
*BewareGlass has to be annealed by slow cooling in an oven after it is worked. Otherwise it is full of stresses and shatters easily.
*What a fascinating topic ...Yes, Phill, that disc was often referred to as a "crown" ... to be cut into small squares and laid up in multi-paned windows.In this country in the 1800's, long glass "bottles" were created by a man standing over a pit, blowing the molten stuff through a blowpipe while swinging it downwards - back-and-forth in the pit - and creating an elongated bottle. The ends were then cut off to form cylinders ... the cylinders were then re-heated and flattened into sheets, which could then be cut into window glass.Went to an old style glass factory in Tijauana, Mexico as a boy. As I recall (though w/ CRS, I might be wrong ) the temperature they were creating glass at was 1,700º F.Interesting idea, Luka. Give it a shot anyway.Geo.
*Don't know if it makes any difference or not, but I'm talking about thick here. 1/2 inch at least. Probably thicker. I figure a marbled look when finished. The one thing that still concerns me most is what to make the form of that will actualy release cleanly from the glass when done.From the sounds of things, if I figure out how to select glass, and get it to 'form' and combine as I wish, then it will still be most logical to make the 'panes' of glass no larger than say 2 feet by 2 feet. Maybe even smaller. 1 by 1 ??
*Luka,I think small would be better - as others have suggested, the resulting poduct will likely be brittle as all heck. To do it in a form ... that's the hard question, huh? Phill mentioned the spun disks - these were fairly thick, but I really don't know if they approached 1/2". Anyway - they were free-form, you see, using the air as the form. I saw a drawing once of a guy doing it, and he had this brutal hand guard and some really primitive protective goggles on his face, I guess for the molten bits that might fly off.After this disc cooled, they cut small squares (or was it diamonds )out of that.Geo.
*Yup, I read that about the disks. I want to keep cutting, etc, down to a minimum. I don't want to melt the glass in a kiln and work with it out of a kiln. In short, I don't want to have to make/buy all sorts of glass-working equipment, nor do I want to have to learn everything there is to know about glass-blowing, etc. I want to melt the stuff right into the form. Maybe as simple as crushing the glass, putting it into the form, and melting it there with a torch. I really think this can be done, regardless of the nay-saying.This is not something that I am going to attempt tomorrow, or anytime soon. I suppose I have plenty of time to figure out just how I am going to do it. Do it I will. Eventualy. I will probably experiment with ideas over the winter.
*Well, if you didn't care about clarity (and Luka says he doesn't), then you could make form out of drywall and line it with HD aluminum foil. That would give you a 17" wide pane @ max, which is probably on there largish side for home-mades (there's a reason why classic windows have the 12"x16" or smaller panes).
*Cool, man. I think it can be done as well. But what the heck to form it in that will release it easily. This is a long shot, but how about copper? You say you've melted glass w/ a propane torch? Well, I've never melted the damn copper w/ one, so maybe it's melting temperature is higher than the glass. Tried to melt a penny once, but it didn't go.Anyway, I'm thinking some type of metal that's rather polished.
*Clarity is absolutely not a concern. All I care about is that light will still get through. Aluminum foil is not a good choice. I have melted aluminum foil even faster than glass. I have some small pieces of high-grade stainless steel. I may try polishing it even more than it is, and then making a small form, 6"x6" maybe, then layering in a bit of crushed glass. Getting that melted, then sprinkling more crushed and continuing to melt until about 1/2" to 3/4" thick.Once the glass is in there and 'done', the 'form' could be kept hot and let cool slowly, by putting it in the woodstove overnight, as the stove burns down naturaly. Maybe I'll end up with some interesting patterns from the woodsmoke and flames as well.It may seem like a slow process, but what the hey, add up a couple dozen pieces like this and you've got a pretty good sized daylight catcher...
*Making the 'panes' small as that has another side-benefit. I can pick exactly the same bottles, (ergo, likely the same glass), to make each pane out of. 3 or 4 bottles should be all it'll take for each pane.
*Hi George,I may be e-mailing you after the first of the year, if I still have a job LOL! (stocks in the dumper/the uncertainty of spin-offs, ya know?) Anyway, I have several windows (more specifically, panes--most of my windows are multi-paned)--w/old (wavy) glass that I want to preserve regardless of how I upgrade the windows (and I want them upgraded, in an energy conservation sort of fashion--providing their integrity/historic aspect is not degraded), as well as the decaying laundry room screens--no windows--once sprayed (?) w/something that (at one point) closed up the holes in those screens but are now opening up after all these years. So far, it's not been too windy/cold to worry about the breeze/temp, but who knows what's in store for us in San Diego next year. Sheesh, it's darn near freezing (~<50 degrees f?) tonight!The idea of opaque (in the definition of "impenetrable by a form of radiant energy other than visible light") sounds like something interesting to explore for this laundry room application--North- and East-facing "windows" (which may be a part of a remodel/addition).Are you accepting applicants for potential clients? (This FH site has been lacking in So. Cal.--specifically central San Diego--contributors, so I'm sticking to you like a honeybun!) If the job/stock does well, I "need" (OK, desire) a surround-type, possibly multi-level deck, second story addition to the garage w/solar panels, and just enough other extras to make my house NOT the priciest one in the neighborhood (I think the last sale was @$400,000 on this cul-du-sac). Oh yes, there's also a basement that needs completion on converting to "living" (or something) space.One thing I want to do while remodeling is to keep the flavor and use local artists when possible. Are you interested? If not, can you recommend someone?TIA, and welcome :) (Sorry, if you are a regular contributor and I've missed your other contributions--I've been busy w/work, and the CT group is my priority in these forums.)
*Maybe you could use sand as a form and then just polish the sand that sticks off of the glass pane.
*Luka,I melted some marbles in a cast iron skillet in a friends pottery kiln. Came out real ugly. If you just want frosted glass put the belt or random orbit on it.KK
*OK, just for kicks, here's what the potters and fused glass folks use for forms: plaster. Also jewelery and sculpture casting (lost wax method).
*OK, SG, how about if a person was to create a facsimile of the pane of glass out of laminate, spray it with a mold release agent, set it right-side-up in, say, a lipped baking sheet, also coated with mold release, and cover with a plaster-of-paris slurry. Let dry, pop the plaster out of the baking sheet and remove the p-lam form. That should create an inexpensive heat-resistant form to melt and hold the glass. I assume (yeah, I know) that there would be some shrinkage as the glass cooled, thus releasing it from the mold. By the way, Luka, you might try MAPP gas as it burns hotter than propane and may enhance the melting process.
*Temperature is important in a kiln situation, which is where i've seen the casts used. If you use the proper temp (and electric kilns are used by glass artists because they are easier to control than gas), the glass doesn't "run", so to make a window, you would only need a flat surface. Glass artists cut the pieces, place them next to one another (or layered) on a form, and then heat to just the proper temp to fuse them, but not run the colors together or change them, which over-heating can cause. I seriously doubt one could ever generate enough heat with a torch over that large of an area to worry about forming a lip to contain the molten glass. The point is, mostly, that you don't use metal for a form, because it's a heat sink.Afterward, if the artist needs a precise shape, the glass is cut to size and edges ground. A "limp" piece of glass may be further shaped with tongs when the kiln lid is lifted and the glass is still hot. I frame for a stained glass shop that also does hot glass. Last time i was there i saw the artist make bracelets by slumping the already-fused glass strips over a form, and then using tongs to bend the ends in further. Then they were left in the kiln to anneal. An aside from my days as an antique bottle digger: some clear glass turns violet when exposed to light over time. The color comes from manganese which was in the sand shipped from Germany. When WWI started, shipments ceased, so you can date these old bottles roughly if they've begun to turn purple, as pre-1914.
*Luka, you may want to check outhttp://handmade-glass.com/
*Waaa HoooNot only a good site itself, but it lead to a site, (warmglass, http://www.warmglass.com/ ), where it looks like I may get the info I need. (They say that stainless may be the best form material...)Thank you !!!b : )
*Luka,A totally different approach to consider in not to melt the glass at all. Instead, crush the glass as fine as possible, then cast it in polyester resin. This might give you a transparent 'terrazzo' effect. It should also give the panes more stability as a thick unit.
*Rein has a good proven method used by Boy Scouts for years in some areas for psuedo stained glass. Build wood form, line with polyethelene, can even make a pattern in the glass, don't have to crush all glass fine, only as small as will roll out into thickness desired (don't use mamma's wooden rolling pin unless you like glass splinters in your Christmas pie crust). Fill as much as possible with more finely crushed glass to minimize amount of relatively costly resin. Use slightly less hardener than the can calls for as if too much, the heat generated during cure can cause the resin to crack. Do it outside if more than a really small window. Merry Christmas
*Sounds like a good idea. But propane costs less than resin...b : )
*Luka: Two ideasb First:you don't have to completely melt the glass to make a solid part. By that I mean heating it to where it sags. At this point it is a sort of liquid. Break your glass into bits, put them into a tray (stainless steel is a very good idea, and you can get cheap stainless cookware), and heat them up until they soften, sag, and stick together. This will eliminate a lot of the thermal expansion problems, as a crack at one joint will not transmit through the glass.You will have to experiment a little to find the proper heating.You will still have the problem that it will be porous. Here you seal it with the polyester resin that is used in Fiberglass layup. Just put it into a container, and pour the resin on and let it sit. If you want to be clever, you can use a porous base and a vacuum cleaner to suck the resin through everything. (Obviously, NOT into the cleaner!!!) Don't use epoxy, as it will not weather as well, and will turn brownish.b Second:The Mexicans (and I think Egyptians) made very hot furnaces by putting the parts into the earth (and I KNOW you have clay around) with a largish hole at the front for a fire. Charcoal, coal, and coke would work best. At the other end is the chimney. Hotter fires can be gotten by forced draft. Have that bear chase you while both of you are on a treadmill.
*Luka, you can save propane and rosin too by simply building your glass windows with mortar, kinda like a glass block job. Just cement those beer bottles in with mortar....Have a beer, add to your window! Have another beer, add to....blue
*Kai,I've been hanging around here and trading tid-bits of wisdom for about 4 months is all. When it seems right to you, E-mail away or give me a call and we'll see if there's a fit. I'm out of Escondido and we're in the business section of the North County phone book under Lentulo Contractors.If you go into Old Town, you'll see my sign w/ a box w/ some flyers and business cards at the jobsite at Twiggs St. and San Diego Ave. Hope this doesn't come off too musch like advertising, as that's frowned upon around here, I know. But if I can be of help to you ...Geo.
*Hey, ya ever see the "Beer Can House" in Houston, TX. Similar deal. May be on the web somewhere. Good diner right down the street too! Jeff
*Hey Luka.....one tip......I've only seen glass blowing...not done it.....but this I've picked up.....remember to NOT inhale! Jeff
*----- or cough
*Thanks, George! I'll definitely keep you in mind when I know for a fact that this little spinoff isn't going under. Couldn't tell by today's stock prices :( (High of $135; today ~$14 LOL!)
*Luka-- back in the 1960's I worked as an engineer for a glass company (Flex-o-Lite division of General Steel Industries) designing glass making furnaces and material handling processes for molten glass.Bottle and window glass (soda-lime-silica) melts at about 1600 degrees F, and doesn't flow well until abt 2000*, which is above the melting point of Cu or Al. It is very caustic(basic) and etches most metals. This means it wets and sticks to all ferrous metals, so if you try to cast it in steel or SS it enamels the metal, unless the metal is cool enough to "freeze" the glass immediately, like in a bottle making machine. We used to make the molten glass in furnaces made of refractory oxide bricks and get it out thru tubes of Inconel 600 (which the glass slowly corroded) or Platinum (terribly expensive).For casting a sheet 1/2" thick, the best home shop way is probably an insulated graphite mold, followed by very slow cooling to room temperature over 24 to 48 hrs to avoid cracking from unannealed stress.You can heat the batch of cullet(broken glass) in a SS pot and pour into the mold. SS melts at about 2500*F so you have a safe temperature margin. After pouring, cover/insulate the glass and mold and let it cool.It has to be real hot when you pour it because as the glass cools even a little, it becomes "sticky". Also the mold has to be perfectly dry (best to heat it to about 250*F) because if there's water present in the mold, it will explode.
*I saw an episode on HGTV about 6-9 months ago called something like "The Masters" where they showed highlights of differetn artisans. Supposedly they were all masters of their trade. One guy did spiral stair cases, one was into welded metal sculpture, one did stained glass, etc, and one guy did glass table tops, like for dining room tables or kitchen counters. He had quantities of broken glass, some crushed, that he layed into some type of mold and heated in a kiln. The glass generally stayed in the discrete colors and shapes as he laid it up, because there was no mixing action. The end product was rather thick (an inch or so) and you could see the different pieces of glass, kind of like OSB. Sometimes he created waves or patterns in the project. He did mention that sometimes different types of crushed glass would react with other pieces and the heat to create unusual colors.
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The question about making windows out of glass bottles got me thinking. I have glass of several types. I can collect plenty of glass. What I am thinking about is crushing the glass, and then melting it into a form. I would like to end up with thick windows. I am interested in getting the light in through the glass, and not with being able to see through it. Matter of fact, the less clearly it can be seen through, the better... to a point.
This would probably be a matter of crushing and melting the glass into the form little by little. Adding glass as I aquired it. Until the form was full, and the glass thick.
I figure that if I torch the old glass before I pour the new into/onto it, there should be little problem with getting the old and new to 'meld'. But... what I need to know is what to use to make the form, especialy the form bottom, to assure the glass will come off of it, and better yet, be fairly smooth.