Slate magazine has an interesting article about Katrina Housing.
“the cost works out to just less than $100 per square foot. That’s pricey. A good production builder can bring in a conventional house… for under $40 per square foot.”
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
The crew talks about work start times, fire-resistant construction, fixer-uppers, building Larsen trusses, and AI for construction.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
Construction costs can vary quite widely, region to region.
Many forum participants here are remodelers, custom builders, specialty subcontractors, and my guess is that few are production builders addressing the lower ends of housing stock, and of those, even fewer are Gulf coasters.
Let's let those with the right knowledge and experience weigh in here. And let's remember, we are talking about small houses, minimal foundations, principally one-story, simple rooflines, etc. Furthermore, the operative word is "cost," not "selling price."
I'd write and ask where they are selling 3,000 sq ft homes for 120k. Sure isn't within 1000 miles of me. Minimum lot size here is 3 acres and if one can be found it's 300k at a minimum, no well or septic.
Don't think the swampland is included in that price.
Could not find the thread, but at least a few on this board (self included) have agreed in the past that even with unpaid DIY labor, the complete house with appliances, carpet, finish, etc would run about $30 sq ft with today's material prices.
as for "with all the bells and whistles that current homebuyers expect, for under $40 per square foot" in the article which I presume includes labor and no donated materials, I'd need to see some specifics to believe that.
Edit PS: In King Co WA, even with all surplus materials ('free') and all DIY 'unpaid' labor, the building/plumb/elec/mech permits, school assessments, sewer and water hookup, etc , etc, etc, run over $10 sq ft. before dirt is even turned.
Edited 4/3/2006 6:18 pm ET by junkhound
I'm a full time builder just getting ready to start my own home. We do all of our own rough and finish carpentry, roofing, and siding. Sub out the rest and the mechanicals.
I'm loyal to my subs and suppliers so they are helping me out with some costs. The house isn't huge or overly fancy but has some special touches and I cannot get it below $80 sq.ft. my cost.
And I don't think I could get even a simple spec below $125 a foot here, hard costs. And for cryin out loud, this is just Nebraska."Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton
Also, the cost of the lot isn't included in that price.There's a basic rule of economics -- you don't put a $50K house on a $300K lot. Likewise, when an executive earning $500K/year attends some sort of educational seminar, it's going to run on the order of $2K/day, while the seminar for a $50K/year person would be closer to $200/day.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Didn't anyone read Larry Haun's excellent article in the recent FH?
Larry spoke at length about the kind of specialization and high-production housebuilding that took place in the unbuilt valleys of southern CA in the years after WWII.
Little houses by today's standards. In and out in a couple days back in the 50s.
Times have changed, though, and no one wants to live in a little tiny house like those postwar ones, so none are being built. The only folks that will live in one now, can't afford any house at all.
But the Katrina disaster created a real need for housing. A "bubble," so to speak, thus the interest in this project.
The "Katrina" houses being discussed here will (if they get built) be little larger than the FEMA emergency housing trailers many are living in now. A 900 sf one would be an absolute castle.
Been in a plant where they make HUD-code housing or components? It makes the southern CA tract housing work of Larry's time look like it was in slow motion.
Larry's guys didn't have air guns. Or factory-made wall or roof panels. Or plug-in bathroom modules. Or plywood.
And you can bet these little Katrina houses will be systems-built. There ain't gonna be much field labor to cost out.
You gotta be thinking outside the box to visualize costs here. Forget your own turf and whatever you do each day, unless, for example, you are somebody like Toll Brothers' chief financial officer. We are probably talking about materials purchased at the kind of numbers that only folks like Lennar, Centex, or Pulte see. No stick building, forget that, it's out of the picture.
The guy they interviewed who mentioned the $40/'sq. price has just finished a new development. It's called "Shanty Town on the Meadows." Here's a pic:
View Image
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Does that come with beach rights?
>>Does that come with beach rights?
Only in the rainy season. ;-)
Round these parts, the rehabs I do the materials alone run about $70/'sq. That's just for the interiors, interior framing, plus windows, roof and all mechanicals. Shells are existing.
Whoever can build for $40/'sq. materials and labor should start trucking those materials here. Would make a fortune.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
First, we gotta find out if the subject sq ft prices include land.
I'm certain it doesn't.
Hate to admit it but I built some economy houses last year for ~$60 a ft +-, excluding land. See attached pics. Just because a house is minimal in design though doesn't necessarily mean that it cannot have reasonably good quality of workmanship on the stuff that is installed. Really, there is nothing "wrong" with the houses and I told my wife that if we could be satisfied with something like that we would never have to work another day in our lives... I probably could have gotten the price down a few $ a sq ft if I had not done some stuff like unrequired hurricane clips, sealing tape around windows, solid wood sheathing on all ext walls, sill seal under ext walls, R-15 insulation (R-13 is min), and done textured ceilings, 20 yr shingles and cheaper cabinets. Probably could have even knocked off a few more $ if I had of hired the absolute cheapest subs I could find and then beat them down on their price some more (who cares how things come out). The homes were around 1300 sq ft - if we had done some of the above and increased the sq footage to around 1800, 2 story, with still 2 baths and the same kitchen or maybe 2200 sq ft 2.5 baths I think I could have easily hit $50, so I'm thinking that maybe Centex, Pulte, etc, might be able to do $40 (excluding land) on their "no frills" products.
Edited 4/4/2006 7:37 am ET by Matt
Like the waterfront property philarenewal posted, under $1 sq ft and livable is possible in areas with no permitting requirements. That leaves a 'reasonable' $39/sq ft to the various NO govmt agencies for the permits, etc, so the $40 is probably do-able.
Attachment = 1/2 concrete floor, 1/2 painted plywood floor, roll roofing, free reclaimed insul glass windows, wood heat, all DIY labor; garage sale electrical and plumbing equipment, free paint, etc. - one grandson says I can live in it when Grandma dies and he can live in our house*. Permit costs not included.
Overall cost out of pocket for attachment (in 1976) less than $0.80 per sq ft (not incl. land, the land under it which goes for over $12 sq ft here now). Of that 80 cents, 50 cents was cement for concrete and the roll roofing ingredients.
*similar 'old folks spreads' in the area now get sold by heirs, every existing building bulldozed, and 8 per acre $400K 'shacks**' put up at about $200 sq ft, incl land.
**or cheap McMansions, whatever.
Matt,
Nothing wrong with those houses. I'd actually love to frame a few of those, I think it'd be refreshing. Blast 'em out, not too many details to get hung up on. I bet if you had a bunch of them to do, I could get the framing labor # down to peanuts because of the simplicity and repitition. I'd cut patterns for everything in there and put the crew on auto-pilot.
(I'd even throw in the sill-seal installation for nothing) ;)View Image
A guy I know (been on a couple of church work trips with him) builds houses about like that. Generally about 1-1.5K sq ft over an unfinished basement, though he builds larger. He works in suburban developments around small towns, where folks are looking for a low-cost modern home. Not sure if he hits $50 but he comes close.Of course he uses inexpensive materials -- inexpensive vinyl siding, plain shingles, economy vinyl windows, nothing fancy in terms of bath or kitchen. Nylon carpets and vinyl flooring. But his main "trick" is simply working fast. He's pretty good at "flash judgement" when figuring out how to do something, and all the designs are uncomplicated, so the crew's moving 110% of the time. No real "factory" production techniques, though, and forget about the blueprints.Is his work "quality"? I guess that depends on what you mean. It's probably mostly to code (inspection's a little lax out there), and it's not going to fall apart in 5 years, but most HOs will probably end up replacing a lot of the finish materials within 20 years -- reroofing, residing, new windows, redoing kitchens and baths.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Speaking of quality:http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ch/1995/ch950404.gif
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
MattAround here you can't get a dog house built for under $125 sq/ft. At the end of my block 1500 sq/ft homes start at 165,000. For that price you get bare min. Only sheet materials are on the corners. Bottom of line mechanicals, windows, doors, carpets, etc. We have a lot of the same builders Pulte, Centex (who was Fox & Jacobs in the past), etc.Fox & Jacobs was notorious of building homes in a few weeks from the foundation up. Bought box car loads of seconds from window, appliance, wood manufacturers. They built homes with 2x4 on 24" centers. Cut so many corners that many of the homes are barely function 20 years after being built. Still they made a ton and when the city and state started closing in they went out of business and came back as Centex. They had the guts to advertise " The same house as your mom and dad had built".I don't see why a few bucks here and there for things that make a home withstand high winds, make them more energy efficient would break anyone. They could even pass the cost on to the customer. I would have gladly paid a couple of thousand more for a better built home.Just my 2 cents ....
How much is a vacant lot?
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
$30,000 to $50,000........At least that's what they say. I'm sure that's with a large markup. The property was just a field with a ton of Mesquite.....
If that's the case then they're overbuilding the house on it.Around here a plain-Jane 1500sf unit would run $130-160K, and the lot would be $40-60K, based on a quick scan of the MLS.Of course, you can spend a lot more than that. Our 2000sf home would go for probably about $190K, but just a half-mile away they're building McMansions on a golf course for $400K to $2M.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Dan
A few months back they lowered the prices from $195,000 for the 1500 sq/ft because the housing market in my little part of town was cooling down. They still have a several lots that remain so they dropped the price.
Remember these are the same houses with the same lot price. So I gather they were making a ton on the houses at 195,000 and now there're just make a half a ton.....
>> $30,000 to $50,000........
At least that's what they say. I'm sure that's with a large markup. The property was just a field with a ton of Mesquite..... <<
I'm guessing these lots you are talking about have streets, water, sewer and power?
On another project I'm involved in, 20 acres was bought for roughly for a quarter mil $ - it could be called a field with a ton of mesquitos. It is being broken to roughly 86 lots making the initial "lot cost" $2900 /ea. The development costs to make it into a subdivision will be roughly 2mil. Now our mosquito field costs $26,000 for each lot... And, yea, the lot costs will be marked up - since I'll make a wild guess the developer is in it to make money - so the finished lot cost to the builder will be about $30k. And yes, the builder will probably mark that up to maybe $35k. It's just so weird the way people get into this stuff to make money...
Matt
I don't have a problem with folks making money. However, the folks around here take it to a fine art. These guys go down to the local labor pickup and get tons of almost free labor.
I watched a group of guys building houses. They started at the first lot and poured the concrete. Then moved to the second lot. After the group removed the the forms for the slab (in a few days) they started framing. You could stand at one end an look down the walls and tell they where out of square and not plumb. When they installed the trusses they sent this little guy up to stand on the plates and try to nail them while the others tried to hold the walls. The entire house wobbled.
The whole block was built in a little over two weeks. They cut a ton of corners. The sill plates were nailed into the concrete. Only sheathing used was at the corners. Like I said, everyone wants to make a little bit but lets face it, many of the homes in this area are built to minimal standards. More the contractors make the better.
I would definitely pay more for better craftsmanship on my house. How much extra would it have cost to put hurricane clips on the house when it was built. How much extra would it have cost to put up some sheeting on the side of the house. How much would it have cost to put in a medium line of windows instead of the cheapest they could get.
I should drop by a new house that is being built across town and take a few pics just to show what kind of workmanship is being done. The hips of the roof are uneven. This house is still in the finish stage. It's just a shame....
Again It's just my 2 cents ......
Quality houses are available - but as you say, you have to be willing to pay for them.
Please look at this thread: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=67972.1
It is obviously too long to read the whole thing, but check out some of the pics and you will see how one of our forum members is constructing a quality house for a client. *Please* though, read these posts within the thread.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=67972.427http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=67972.430http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=67972.435
Note that the prices per sq ft being discussed exclude land. Then compare these numbers to what you paid per square foot.
So, you can find quality builders out there, you just have to look for them and then pay.
Please post pics of your new quality built house.
MattI know there are some good folks out there. The problem is you don't always get what you paid for......Just down the road is an entire neighborhood who had there back yards slide into the creek because of a developer/contractor who paid off some folks them skipped town. We as the taxpayers of this not so little burg had to pay to get the creek bed filled in and the back yards of 20 homes repaired. Now we have a new park. I could go on-and-on. These are homes. There are no lemon laws for homes and they are not just a few thousand dollar investments. Just my 2 cents .....
The sale prices (land inc) for the houses pictured are aprox $74 a sq ft. - very low profit margin.
Can't build a garage for $40.00 sf here.
Howie
Earlier this evening one of the New Orleans PBS stations had a program featuring a local architect discussing some of the new proposed elevated house designs for the area. He showed 3 designs ranging from 2400 to 4000 sq/ft. living space. Ground level was basically garage and storage with living space on 2nd & 3rd level. These are not the usual "house on stilts" designs but are pretty attractive. He said the local contractors were quoting about $110 to $125 /sq-ft.for living spaces and $30K for the foundation & ground level. Of course that can vary a lot depending on how upscale the owner wants to go. That is only slightly more than the cost before Katrina and the floods. I always wonder how accurate most of what is in Slate is.
ZooGuy - We just signed a contract to build a 2-story, 2.5 bath, 4 bdrm - (i.e.1st flr master & laundry, 3 bdrms, full bath & loft w/ balcony upstairs - complicated roof-lines, but rather square footprint), 3 car garage, 1 gas fireplace, walk-out basement & (2) 20' x14' tier Trek deck on our lot (i.e. we carry the construction loan) in NE Ohio for $104/sq ft. With granite counters in the guest, master bath & kitchen, not necessary your low-end home. Based on competitive quotes ranging from $110 to 130 sq. ft., believe we received a good price. But with all this said, your price will depend mostly on local going rates & state of construction. jimz
I haven't delved into new home building yet, but from what I see and have studied on it, there is no way anyone could build a house and complete it on even $50 a sq. ft. Maybe someone out there can tell me different about the northeast, but even modest new builds are starting in the $300,000 range and go from there. Also, no one wants to build smaller or in a moderate income area as a friend of mine found out with her land up north where builders said if they couldn't build a $400,00 McMansion, it wasn't worth their time.I'd like to delve further into the possibility of building smaller, but I'm too tied up with what's in front of me to look at it further.
$40/sqft is not difficult to do but ...
You need volume.
You need to use low labor skills.
You need to build up not out.
You need to have customers.
---
On the otherhand a $400K 2000sqft kitchen kills the budget.