Anybody know these people?
My bro has a client wants a bid on plan # 81-385.
http://www.houseplans.com/plan_details.asp?id=12755
Client has not bought the plans yet, and wants to modify the plans he doesn’t yet have. Wants bid on the little picture with unspecified mods. A shed dormer to enlarge the loft area & walkout basement. Company says they can modify to suit, cost undisclosed. View Image
Bro got some “Cost to build” PDFs from the company. 4 different “Construction Quality” sheets from Premium at $427K to Economy at $166,713.64. They even have his profit figured out for him. One attached, obviously useless.
So, anybody ever used these plans and how bad are they? Can he actually build from the plans or will they need a complete rework?
Joe H
Edited 12/28/2007 11:20 pm by JoeH
Replies
That house is designed for a hot climate, maybe a hot wet climate. Where is he wanting to build it?
other than that -
Thanks for the laugh, Joe
;)
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That house is designed for a hot climate, maybe a hot wet climate
You pegged our area. That is the style they build here. But my question, out of curiousity, how can you tell? What was it you saw?
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Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote
awning porch roof all the way around shades the walls to reduce heat gain there.High roof to vent attic heat outExterior chimneys. In a old climate you want tht masonry massing on the inside. In hot climate, you only use the fire occasionbally for effect or take chill off in the AM but don't want a hot chimney radiating all day long
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I lived down in TX for a spell, and that shape was a common one used on the older ranches of east TX, down in the steamy piney woods.
I know a guy who has built a house a year for the past four and all have been per HousePlans.com drawings. I've seen the drawings, and they are quite adequate for building.
I also think it fairt he houseplans doesn't say in advance what it will ost to redraw for changes without knowing exactly what hanges are in the thinking. Sometimes one change that seems simple to an owner requires a total redesign to make it happen.To me, the laughable part is in the client trying to get a 'bid' from a simple rendering att he same time they are proposing unspeccified changes
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Gene, you would consider houseplans.com plans to be "real" plans?
Complete plans?
Joe H
Absolutely.
Others here will disagree, but having seen results, I can say they are buildable.
Of course, you have to be on top of things. Only you know for sure what kind of snow and wind loads are applicable for your site.
If you are a structural engineer yourself, you can readily resize structural members as needed, and engineer the appropriate foundation for the building. If you aren't, it should not be hard to get a local PE to do it for you.
Other than that, those plans are generally good to go. Far more so, I'll bet, than something cooked up on paper by a "designer." A designer can roll all his mistakes up into that one plan he does for you, and you'll eat the busts and curse him or her for it.
The plans sold via a biz like HousePlans.com have to be a lot better reviewed for quality assurance.
Of all the plans sources out there, however, I have seen the Donald Gardner ones to be the worst.
Howdy, This is joes bro in Montana writing. Thanks for the input. Is it possible to call the builder who has used this houseplans.com, or possibly email them? perhaps more imput might help.
The lot is here in Paradice Valley Montana, and will have a full basement. Shop seperate, to the side, and I've been using spray foam insulation and metal roof and facia.
thanks Mike
Golly, Mike. You look just like your brother Joe.Are youns twins ?;o)
A man, convinced against his will... Is of his own opinion, still. ~Anne McCaffrey
He!! no, I'm way smarter & handsomer & older too.
Better change my password quick before I start speeling like him.
Joe H
That makes sense. Thanks. The wisdom of the wise old builder.......... :-)
Hey, not old as in age....... :-)
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.” Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote
The reason I mentioned it in the first place was to point it out because this would be an impractical design for north country in some ways and need more extensive re-design. One of the biggest problems with online home plans is that no consideration is given to site and latitude
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Paul,
Other than the fireplace/chimney thing allready mentioned, what design issues do you see that render this house unsuitable for a norther lattitude; let's say the northeast?
Eric[email protected]
The large overhanging porch all around means a dark interior for the northeast. I try when possible to work the windows to let light in in winter and even solar gain, while having the overhang right to shade the same windows in summer.The roof is great for getting all the rain away from the foundation though
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and the other thing is that we often use two story designs to use that same heat twice
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The reason I mentioned it in the first place was to point it out because this would be an impractical design for north country in some ways and need more extensive re-design.
I totally agree 100%.
The other thing too about basic internet house plans are codes. Different areas require different plan changes.
Example: FIL wanted house plans by Poole, so he finds a set. I think he paid hundreds for the set, I'm thinking like $1500. Then he made some floor plan changes through an architect/engineer, who then had to up grade the framing for this area, upgrade the foundation for this area because the original plans are not specific to this area. Just the engineering changes were another $2500.
I am thinking he could have done the whole shibang cheaper and got exactly what he wanted which would have been for this specific area with an engineer stamp of approval.
One thing we learned was even though you buy plans like these you have to get them stamped. The plans people fail to mention these little things.
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.” Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote
What we don't know for this particular situation, re codes and compliance, is how closely the AHJ scrutinizes plans.
I live in NY, and while there are areas in the state where one could not get permits to build using straight off-the-rack plans from someone like HousePlans.com, there are huge areas where one can do it without missing a beat.
I am familiar with building in Ohio and Indiana, also, and there are many counties there without any sophistication at all in their county or local building departments. One would be quite free there to build using unmodified plans from any one of the online plans sellers.
My guess is that if you fly all over this country on a clear day, and look down from 32,000 feet, you could get a permit and build this place from stock plans for over 90 percent of the square miles you see down below.
That said, a large part of the populace lives in or near enough to the big metroplexes that building codes are actually used and enforced for them.
I got asked by a guy to price up a house, and the situation was exactly like that of the brother of the OP here. In my case it was a little 3-bed 2-bath chalet thing, and the source was CoolHousePlans.com.
Really.
I found out that the plan was so generic that most all the other players, HousePlans.com among them, had exactly the same thing.
My guy didn't really want a "bid" per se, but more like a "budget work-up," which I was glad to do. After he answered enough questions about trim, finish, exterior materials, details, plumbing and heating systems, etc., I was able to place a reasonably accurate number on the package for him.
Like the one I was asked to look at, this one in question here has more info available for the builder, at the website, than just the pretty rendering. These sites always show pictures of floor plans, plus they give square footage specs, overall footprint sizes, and more.
Any good builder capable of estimating can use this stuff to come up with the means for pricing the job.
Nowadays, a builder that is using one of the capable software packages can take the little to-scale renderings of the floor plans from these websites, copy them into his Google Sketchup or Chief Architect (or other) package, and very quickly do an in-house model of the plan in question, that is accurate enough for a quite complete cost estimate.
It sure would make it a lot easier if like you said you can take a generic set of plans and built it anywhere! Glad it works for you. Like you said it would be easier to estimate.
We have to be "stamped" here. Or told so by the County inspection office. Take the walls for instance, they have to withstand some form of a hurricane, so they are constructed different. For instance every stud, top and bottom here has to be strapped. All rafters are strapped. Walls over eight foot has to have a "go bolt" a thread all bolt from the foundation up through the top plate every 6ft or so. Not sure the exact code. But this is in the cross section of the walls in the plans. A general plan from the internet wouldn't have this and the county has to preapprove the plans before permits are distributed.
I wasn't too fair when I mentioned the foundation. The generic plans had the foundation off the ground. My FIL and the site can accommodate a monolithic slab. So this had to be engineered.
I guess it really depends on geographic location. There are probably some things that we don't or aren't concerned with in this area that ya'll might take a little more care making sure it is right.
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.” Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote
"you could get a permit and build this place from stock plans for over 90 percent of the square miles you see down below."But only 30% of the areas where people actually build and live!;)"Any good builder capable of estimating can use this stuff to come up with the means for pricing the job.Nowadays, a builder that is using one of the capable software packages can take the little to-scale renderings of the floor plans from these websites, copy them into his Google Sketchup or Chief Architect (or other) package, and very quickly do an in-house model of the plan in question, that is accurate enough for a quite complete cost estimate."Sure, but can he keep doing that for free and stay in business for long?
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Pif, we know you work on another planet, where money is no object and everybody is still abuilding, with plans for expansions extending out for generations, but . . .
. . . there are a whole lotta GCs, all across the USA, that do new houses that would love to take a crack at something like this, and believe me, they would not be like Mike, and charging for their proposals.
New-work-wise, it's getting really rough out there. Didja see today's news on the November housing start figures?
With SU and the info from the houseplans website, I could have this modeled in an hour, and by the end of the second hour I would have all the key quantity and spec info entered into a worksheet template for pricing.
And I'm not even in the biz! Couldn't you do the same with your software? Hey, they guy is just looking for a ballpark number, to see if it is worth pursuing further.
I can give a ballpark number without even opening the PC if that is all he wants.Read the OP again Gene. Client is asking for a bid. If you are going to do that with the info provided, you are going to lose jobs or lose money - one or the other.And don't point to the rest of the country to make your point. They are all losing money - which makes my point.
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I don't agree. You aren't going to lose money because if the guy takes your bid, you get to draw the plans and specs. You simply tailor the plans and specs to your bid. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I wish I could learn to think backwards like that.
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"I wish I could learn to think backwards like that."I can hear the irony dripping off that comment but I don't see the smiley face. Its not really that radical of an idea. The potential client has a rendering and nothing else. He wants a "bid", or so he says. We really only know a couple things: he wants a new house and it kinda, maybe should look like the pic. He's a "layman" and has no idea of what something like that will cost. He starts the discovery process in the only way he knows: call contractors and ask them for bids. He's a good student and he knows he should talk to at least three contractors. You are one of them.The ball is now in your court. Your sales skills will steer you down the correct path. Real Life example: A guy here advertises looking for a builder that will supply his license to build a new house. 75% of the guys that post here will automatically freak out and claim that something must be wrong and never contact him. I'm new here and need to get things going so I contact him, even though I have no license. I agree to meet him on the lot he owns. He says he has plans. I tell him to bring them. We meet. Nice lot, nice plans. I ask for his expected budget numbers because I'm looking at a complicated 3500 sf plan. He wants to spend only 300k. I do some quick mental math and decide that I can't do what he wants for 300k but I dont know how far away we are in price because I don't know Texas costs. We keep talking and I'm leaving the door open. I'm asking him questions about what his priorities are, what his intended use is, etc. After a few minutes of me overcoming his objections about my lack of Texas experience, I ask him for a set of the plans so I can bid it. Then, the floodgates open. He's not willing to give me that set because it's the last one. He's given ten sets out to builders and not one of them will call him back! Of course, I know why. No one could deliver what he has drawn for 300k! Long story short: we have pared the house down to 2800 and simplified the design. He is willing to accept budget everything except the countertops which need to be granite. He is willing to accept used lumber and used fixtures...anything we want as long as we keep the construction budget to 300k. He would take a 2000 sf house if that's all that we can provide....just get him a new house on his payed for lot for 300k and it needs granite counters (in the kitchen).We will deliver what he wants. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Gene, it's going to happen. The real ? was were the plans going to be of any help or need so much work as to be useless.
Suspect I'll know more when he gets them. He just didn't want to shell out $1,000 for scrap paper.
Joe H
Paul, he's in Montana.
How'd you know?
Joe H
I didn't know, but site and location are the first things in my mind when designing or when hearing about book plans like this. People shop a pretty picture what looks good to them with no idea why certain details are there and having no idea for instance how much those exterior chimneys will cost them in many ways over the years.
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I was kidding, but still you hit it pretty close.
Joe H
Plan books are nothing new. Nor is ignoring the local site conditions.There are many streets in KC that must have been built up in the 20's and 30's with very similar looking houses.The streets slope, but the lots are level. The top of the lots are filled in they will be level for maybe 5-10 lots and util the buildup gets to be 5-6 ft and then they adjusted the level.In the subburbs in the 60's and 70's "raised ranches with split entries and tuck under garages where the thing.Although on 2/3 of the lots there was not the slope to support them. So you have this house sticking out of the ground with lots of dirt dumped around them..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Piffin
the salesman in me says that's the wrong apporach..
Use plans like that to develop a relationship with the client.. don't use it for anything more than what it is a point of departure..
It most definately isn't a bid because as others say you'd need to have three pages of disclaimers.. But If that were me and I was looking to sell a client a house I would assure him that on an apples for apples basis I could match anybodies bid..
Building a house is differant than selling a house.. Virtually nobody wants exactly what is drawn. they want a bigger closet or bigger window here etc.. They want this sort of trim and that sort of light fixture..
You can't sell those and make the added profit if you didn't sell the house in the first place.. so get the money issue out of the way first.. don't be cheaper but don't start off higher either! At this stage they aren't worth a lot of effort. They are information gathering and seeing who they are a better fit with..
So don't get eliminated in the priliminary round. Be enthusiastic about the house and their taste, caution them these are priliminary numbers without proper attention paid to various code issues and other such considerations..
That will give them reason to trust you and to listen to your advice as they settle on who they want to build..
to sell a client a house I would assure him that on an apples for apples basis I could match anybodies bid..
A great pitch, Pif. Just about perfect. In so many words, that is the same story I tell in attempting to sell interior cabinetry work.
But voice for us, please, what you tell the client you can bring, that another cannot, in executing the project. Since price is off the table now as an issue, and the apples are indeed apples, exactly what are you going to deliver?
Gene,
I can't begin to tell you what your strengths are. How you differ from others.. what's unique about you..
Hopefully you have a good feel for that and where you add value that others don't. I will say that you cannot rely on what I hear so much of the time.. That somehow you build with greater quality. Unless it's things which the customer values and can see or measure that will be percieved as sales pitch and not value added..
It needs to be something that the customer wants.. Do you incorporate carvings or use all solid wood? Are your doors self closing anti-slam type? Are those of interest to the customer? Here's where a skilled salesman will ask open questions. Open questions are questions which must be answered with something more than a yes or no. They call for explanation and elaboration..
When they answer it's very important that you listen.. Don't prepare for what you intend to say next but listen and pay careful attention to inflection and what body language they use. Read their eyes, body language and eyes will tell you a lot. In many cases more than what they say. Sometimes what they don't say is a better clue than what they do say..
Who's controlling the questions and who's the decision maker.. (no it's never a joint decision) Learn to focus your attention on the decision maker without regard to who's asking questions or suggesting direction.. Unguarded eye movement by the decision maker will tell you how much credence to apply to given suggestions.. If she wants carvings but his priority is cost mention the added per unit cost of carvings and do a rough quick estimate in your head. Watch his eyes, if he flinches or avoids eye contact, If he folds his arms over his chest you have an answer..
I'll share more if you are interested..
Thats exactly what I did Frenchy. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This is an interesting web page about "canned plans":http://www.shearwalls.com/plans.html
One definition of an economist is somebody who sees something happen in practice and wonders if it will work in theory. [Ronald Reagan]
Thanks, that was informative.
- Huck (always learning)View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Ya know, I take much of what you say here as being half a load of BS and half a load of hot air all mixed together, but when you talk on a subject you really know like this, I sit up and listen.And what you say is what I actually do pretty much. I've had lot5s of times when somebody brings me something like this and it becomes the start of a conversation."That looks nice. What things do you like most about it?""Are there any things that5 you dislike?""If you can have anything you want in a home, what would it be?"By the time we finish out conversation, they are impressed with my other ideas and ready to scrap the plan book and pay for a real design to fit them and their lifestyle.
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We find ourselves in this situation from time to time. For reasons all covered in the link that BossHog posted, what we do is take the "cut sheets" showing the floorplan and elevation(s) and have the plans locally drawn and stamped.
I recently had to do 2 bids for these situations. Each budget included a line item for x$ for plans development. One bid has been accepted and one we are still waiting to hear back from the client. The plans for the first house are being drawn right now. Luckily I had recently built some houses that were very similar to what these clients were asking for, so I was able to use those (completed) house costs to build budgets for the 2 current houses. Still, because of the possibility for budgeting errors, we marked up the bids 5 to 10% more than we might normally.
As far as that budget that OP posted and said it was a joke - I'd say that it wasn't even a good joke... Building costs vary so widely by region that just for that web site to even publish such a budget says a lot about the quality of their products. The travisty is that some non-building professional person would see that and actually think it was of some value. Really the only value of it is that they gave a range of between $166k and 430k (or whatever the numbers were), but it was a bit amusing that that range was attributed to "premium construction" and "economy construction". If I were to show such a budget to my boss (the "builder") I'd be sure my resume was current and in wide circulation first.
Edited 1/1/2008 9:45 am ET by Matt
"For reasons all covered in the link that BossHog posted, what we do is take the "cut sheets" showing the floorplan and elevation(s) and have the plans locally drawn and stamped."BTW, that is copywrite infringement unless they also bought the plans or a license to use that design..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Piffin,
I think that's the most left handed compliment I've ever recieved.. However I thank you for giving it.
(my own share of left handedness). <GRIN>
Edited 1/1/2008 9:52 am ET by frenchy
I meant it sincerely - from my hand to yours.
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"Client has not bought the plans yet....Wants bid on the little picture".
Now here's a guy who's supposedly ready to spend maybe 300-350K +/- on a house but yet doesn't want to part with what it takes to buy and modify the plans.
Sounds like a tire kicker to me.
I'd get bro to suggest first his client provide him with biddable plans. Not only will the bid be more accurate it will be an indication of the clients seriousness about the project.
Runnerguy
Just copy that bid and attach a couple of pages of disclaimers.
Then give him a range of 350,000 to 600,000 clams
and remind him a free estimate from you is worth ten times what it costs!!
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I have Transcended the need for Pants....
oooohhhhmmmmmm......
I've never found any of those plan companies that put out plans that are worth anything. I hate all of 'em.
I also get a lot of people who tear pages out of those books and want bids. I tell 'em it will be an estimate only, and I put a minimal amount of effort into it.
Sometimes they bring in 2 plans - They want the floor plan from one, but want the elevation from the OTHER plan. That can make it real interesting...