Hello all, I am generally on knots, but I figured I ask the builders this one.
I am in the process of re-doing basement steps, and so far I have taken out the 2x treads, and added oak skirt boards and I am milling the treads and risers now.
Problem is top step is 9 inch rise, bottom step is 6 ” rise,(because I layed down a delta floor over concrete) and all the steps in between are 8″ rise.
I figured I would add a double layer of 3/4 birch ply giving me a nice flat material to lay the oak treads over? If I figured this right, it would leave me with a 7 1/2 ” inch rise on bottom step, 7 1/2″ rise on top step and 8″ on all other steps, close enough? What do you think with this method?
Also, do the treads but into the riser or does the riser butt into the tread on the inside 90 of the step? Liquid nails ok with screws and very few finish nails?
Thanks to all who reply, i really appreciate it. And thanks for the replys on the other post today about steps, I am excited, because I am gonna switch to Shellac and finish in place, as opposed to my first plan to finish with poly before install. thanks again,
joe p in RI
Replies
joe,
If I am understanding you correctly then no what you are proposing isn't going to work.
If you add 1 1/2" worth of ply to the bottom rise then add an oak tread on top of that you will have a greater then 7 1/2" rise. Same problem at the top.
Better to divide the total rise by the # of rises and figure out how much shim thickness is required at each rise to bring all the rises to the same amount.
It may for example start out at 1" at the bottom tread and progress up through all the steps adding 1/16" to each so the progression becomes 1", 1 1/16", 1 1/8", 1 3/16", etc.
Rip the shims, glue them to the jacks and then place your treads.
Risers are generally glued and fastened to the back of the treads.
i think i left something out in translation.
if i add 1 1/2 layer on first step from botom and all the way up it will keep all things equal, except to shorten the rise on the top step into the hall by 1 1/2 ", and add 1 1/2" to the1 st step rise, and then the treads are all equall, so i think it should be a non factor.
i am trying to adjust a short rise on 1st step and a high rise on the last step?
joe p
also thanks to all the replies, always a great resource here!! thanks again
Joe P, if you intend to have some different rises, I'd strive to stay within 3/16" difference between any adjacent risers. That would mean that you would have to use a blend of different "shims" for your first few treads and then do the same when you got to the other end. Theoretically, by doing this, you could create a perfect set...which should be the goal, but usually isn't the result on a fix like this due to some practical issues. Anyways, if you end up with a variation on the final tread, I would think it would be better to have it at the bottom, but that is debatableYour other question: We typically butt the treads into the riser and nail through the riser into the tread stock. This creates a midspan support for the treadstock. In your case, I'd drop the riser all the way to the underside of the rough tread, add glue and nails and reap the rewards of a very stiff tread being carried by the vertical strength of the riser stock.Sounds like a fun weekend project. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Oh....I forgot to mention: as a rough framer, I'd probably knock the entire main assembly out and redo it....it would be faster for me than to mess around with the various thicknesses, etc. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Yeah, effectively increasing the thickness of the tread (eg, with some sort of shim below it) will increase the rise relative to the (unadjusted) step below and decrease the rise relative to the (unadjusted) step above. In theory you could cut shims for each step and come out exact, but that would be a bit retentive.
I'm recalling (not that my memory is that good) that code usually calls for steps to be within 3/8" of each other, so 1/2" is a hair much, but only a hair. However I also vaguely recall that the code exempts the first and last steps from this rule.
Don't forget to also consider runs -- they should also be as equal as possible, and it's easy to get the top one off if you don't plan ahead.
As to what butts into what that's kind of up to you. You just have to plan the part dimensions based on the technique used (observing in particular the rise/run of top and bottom steps). With cut stringers installing the risers first (or at least working top-down) allows the riser to be "wild" on the bottom and flush to the bottom of the tread on top.
I understand what you are trying to accomplish and honestly, it seems as good a solution as can be had short of rebuilding the entire stair set.
I think it is a good solution and will be a vast improvement over that assumedly very awkward last step you have now.
As a rule, risers set behind the treads... I suppose this makes it easier to replace treads if the need arises. It probably helps to conceal gaps from the eyes as you use or stand in front of the stairs.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I think you could tear this existing stairway out and redo it quiker/better then trying to cobble something together.
Seams to me your creating something that will sqeak somewhere down the road.
Doug
Edited 10/27/2007 4:32 pm ET by DougU
I'll add to that that I'm a big fan of solid stringers and cleats rather than cut stringers.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Seems to me, if I understand your measurments correctly, that there is another problem you may need to consider... if you add 1 1/2" to the first rise to bring it up, then you've dropped the next rise accordigly. So instead of 8" on the second rise, you now have 6 1/2". You need to get the height from finish floor to finish floor, divide it evenly among the number of risers, and cut variou shims to adjust each one. Or do the carriages over, as some have suggested.
He was going to add the same thickness to all the treads. It works out.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Redo the stringers,throw the old ones out. Fasten the riser bottom to the back of the tread.
mike
I would just rebuild them .but that is easy for me to say I build stairs all the time
if you are a wood worker it would be fun to build a set of routed housed stringer stairs.
I have never built a set of cleated stairs when I started doing stairs I was going to but someone told me cleats are for guys who cannot build stairs but I do not believe that now.it takes just as long to lay them out and ya still use the same math
but I still want to try is someday seem interesting to me to cleat stairs and it would go fast I think
Cleating is more forgiving than other techniques -- if a cleat is off you can move it, and a cleat can't "get away from you" like a router or the saw being used for cut stringers. Plus cut stringers are quite weak vs cleated or dadoed stringers.A disadvantage, of course, with cleated or dadoed stringers, is that the stringers must be at the outer edges of the steps, resulting in potentially more flex mid-step vs cut stringers inset about 20% on each side. But there's no appreciable difference if you were going to sister the cut stringers to skirt boards.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Since the stringer was cut for an 8" rise, the top step has to be 8" too. Any difference in rises will cause someone to trip.
So make it all 8" with a landing at the bottom that has a shorter rise to the basement floor.
By raising the basement floor you have reduced the total rise of the stair. The new rise should be calculated. The blocks set on the bottom stringers will be the largest and will become incrementally smaller each step untill you reach the top step with the smallest block. Solid wood blocking of 2X material is preferable.
Everything the tread or riser comes in contact with is glued on assembly, PL-Premium is my adhesive choice. Risers can either be nailed or screwed into the back of the treads. However a close quarters cabinet drill is required if there is existing drywall under the staicase.
Gord
Thanks to all for the replies.
As some have sugested, i should ripped out the stringes and redid the staircase, however i had already started to mill my stock for the skirt boards and risers and treads. I am ready to roll, so I now have the tips to start installing.
I had the red oak taken down from my own property and then I milled and had it killned about 4 yrs ago. It has been in my shop since then and I am happy to get the space back now.
When all the builders on this site stop laughing at me for my time invested (waisted) for milling all the stock myself, remember i am a hobbyist woodwork for self enjoyment only, so time is a non issue. Plus, the cost of hardwood is out of control. So my skirt boards are 4 pieces glued and pocket screwed to keep the butt end tight, but i spent a fair bit of time matching all the grain. But, my total cost for the stairs is $52.00 for glue and finishing materials. Already had the wood taking up space anyway.
Thanks again to all for the great info.
joe p in RI
As many have mentioned before, you'll need to figure the optimum riser height from finished floor to finished floor.<!----><!----><!---->
Take into account the thickness of your finished tread relative to the upper finished floor and the lower finished floor. (Thickness of riser board needs to be accounted for as well for consistent tread nosing)<!----><!---->
Apparently your carriage was set up for 8" rise from basement floor to finished upper floor with a tread thickness of 1"<!----><!---->
The first rough rise from the basement floor should have been 7" with the top most rise at 9". Laying on the 1" tread would yield the 8" rise at the bottom (7"+1") and the top rise of 8" (9"-1"). All intermediate rises would stay at 8".<!----><!---->
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Let's say that you have ten rises at 8", total rise obviously would be 80". You've now lost 1" of total rise, 79".... 79/10= 7- 7/8" (roughly) which would be your new target rise.<!----><!---->
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The new rough rise at the bottom would be 6-7/8” ( 7-7/8" less the tread thickness of 1”) top rough rise now at 8-7/8"
As you can see, adding 7/8” to the bottom rise would make for a significant change to the next intermediate rise (yielding 7- 1/8”) whereas at the top is very little change. Best bet would be to follow the advice given earlier and gradually change each rise on the way up the stairs.
In this 10 rise example, with a target rough rise at 7-7/8” and holding to within a 3/16” variable.
Start at the bottom add 7/8”
Next rise add 3/4”, then 5/8”, 1/2”, 3/8”, etc. until you’re under that 3/16” variable.<!----> <!---->
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Use PL Premium rather than Liquid Nails. Or one of the urethane adhesives.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 10/29/2007 12:59 pm ET by FastEddie
Something like Liquid Nails maybe good between layers to avoid squeeks. Even though other glues are much stronger, construction adhesives are more flexible and resiliant.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Disagree. LiqNails tends to get hard, whereas the urethane adhesives stay slightly flexible. I didn't mean to use a glue."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt