I have a 15 foot exstruded Aluminum Flag pole. It has a cast aluminum base with four slots capable of taking at least a 5/8″ dia. bolts. My question is, How much concrete do i need? How big in Diameter and how deep? to mount the flange to. Keep in mind a 3×5 foot U.S. Flag and a Ohio State flag hanging off of it. Any engineers out there that can help me with this? Thanks Andy
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have you tried the pole manufacture?
ITs old. Came from an old gas station. No name on it. called a MFG. Co on the net but they only have the kind you concrete into the ground.
Oh yeah, you did say mounting flange.Google some more. Might find somethingTFB (Bill)
been there done that.
After a quick google
from http://flagandbanner.com/fab/flag.asp?cpage=flagpole_installation
The comercial instructions are on that page as well, scroll down some
RESIDENTIAL
GROUND SLEEVE INSTALLATION:
• Dig a hole to the depth of the ground sleeve plus 3 inches. The minimum diameter should be 10 inches at the top of the hole and 8 inches at the bottom. A post hole digger is ideal for this task.
• Place 3 inches of stone in the base of the hole for drainage.
• Next add 3 inches of sand on top of the stone.
• Work the ground sleeve into the sand until the top of the sleeve is 1 inch above the grade level. (Figure A).
• Place the bottom swedged section of the pole into the ground sleeve.
• Pour concrete mix into hole and around sleeve to within 1.5 inches on top of ground sleeve.
• Brace pole and use a level before concrete sets in order to achieve a straight pole.
I'd make it 5'X5'X4" reinforced. That's a little over eight cubic feet of concrete, approximately one thousand pounds, over an area the size of a big truck tire.
I believe it would take a silver back gorilla, swaying back and forth up on top of that pole to wobble that sized base.
---This expert analysis from another proud graduate of the Mr. Whipple School of Engineering.---
My sense is that 4" thick is WAY to thin ... it's the depth, not the width that resists the overturning momentum of an upright cantilever of a pole. The force on a pole could likely easily overturn with only 2.5 ft of concrete 4" thick resisting it. Granted, if the width is wide enough, it will work, but I think structural efficiency works better if you have the ground help you resist the overturning moment of a pole.
I WAG guess would be you would want something maybe 3-5 ft deep. You could use a sonotube of say 8-10" diam w/ some steel in it and the bolts set as the other guy mentioned (w/ a plywood template).
Where are the structural engineers?
Technically, this may likely require a building permit ... your BO might be a good friend as he's seen lot's of flag pole and street light pole bases go in. You might check websites for street or park light poles ... they may have some standard charts.
good luck
We're talking about a 3X5 free flying nylon flag, not a tethered sail. How much drag is it going to produce, in a strong gust? Maybe fifty pounds? Is the aluminum flag pole going to bend slightly when there's a gust? That's surely going to reduce a gust's effect.
Even considering leverage there's just not that much momentary pressure being exerted on the size and weight slab I suggested.
Say that to the manufacturers, installers, and engineers of light poles! It is not a sail, but the force can be much more significant than you realize. While the pole may be less significant, watch the stress on the cable holding a flag in a 50mph wind! Also look at a flag pole bend in the wind ... this is much more significant than you think. Take a look at the base of even relatively short straight street lamps. They don't just design bolted bases to make concrete suppliers rich.
While I understand your point of view, I think you underestimate the potential forces involved.
I'm w/ TroutMullins ... sounds like he's more on the right track ...
I'm taking the practical point of view. How many flag loving patriots will run out of steam long before they're able to dig a four foot deep hole?
I'm suggesting something closer to DIY reality, four inches of reinforced concrete, 5'X5'.
That's 16-18 60# bags of sacrete mix, about as much as any average guy and his BIL can mix and pour before collapsing in front of the TV with a cold one...or three.
Friday after work; a little excavating with a pick and shovel to get down to hard soil and make it level. Next bang some nails in some 2X4s, stake the form level and lay in the wire. Then leave it until BIL shows up on Saturday.
Most of you guys are off on another mission.
Edited 5/30/2008 12:32 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
With all due respect ... you are kidding, right?
I'm talking practical as well. I think you are way off on this one. If your concrete slab is not anchored to the ground ... which it would not be, very little force would be required to tip it over (relatively speaking). I'd bet the building official would say 'no way'. You take your same amount of concrete and go down and I feel you would get substantially more structural integrity.
No, I'm not kidding. I believe most of you guys are thinking like highway engineers and their lawyers, trying to equate a 15' flag pole and a small nylon flag with light pole stanctions.
A half ton of concrete with a five foot diameter base, resting on solid soil, is sufficient.
trying to equate a 15' flag pole and a small nylon flag with light pole stanctions.
Well, yeah, except that small flag is 3' x 5', or a fifth the height of the pole. Under which a State flag is to be flown, and it will be either a 2'x4' or a 3'x5', making the total hoist between 5' and 6' tall, a full third of the mast's height. Not a light bit of loading, really.
My first thought was 36" of 3" diameter tubing with a plate weled to the top with bolts welded to that plate. The 33" tube could be driven into the soil by simple impact, which would be a lot easier than all the digging. Good idea, right? Except OP's flagpole is AL, and bolting AL to that steel plate might cause problems later on down the road.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
My first thought was 36" of 3" diameter tubing with a plate weled to the top with bolts welded to that plate. The 33" tube could be driven into the soil by simple impact, which would be a lot easier than all the digging. Good idea, right? Except OP's flagpole is AL, and bolting AL to that steel plate might cause problems later on down the road.
Yeah, very good idea. Driving the tube into the soil to that depth would produce plenty of leverage.
The problem with digging a big hole, like these other guys envision, and pouring a concrete column, is that the surrounding soil has no reliable compaction after the pour. So it takes a large diameter, deep column to overcome that inadequacy.
I say it's simpler to pour a pad for the pole than go through all that. But I like your idea better. Get a 3' length of 3-4" steel pipe, lay a steel plate on top of it and wail away with a ten pound sledge until it's down 30" or so.
I'm not sure how well that method of driving it would work but it's worth a try.
Edited 5/30/2008 2:24 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Speaking of flag sizes. I drove down the I-5 a couple of years ago. The car dealerships all flew American flags - some of which must have been 60 ft across. Forget this 5 ft stuff. They must need caissons and grade beams to hold those babies in a blow.
some of which must have been 60 ft across. Forget this 5 ft stuff. They must need caissons and grade beams to hold those babies in a blow.
Well, was goinf to dazzle from my nifty all-ages book on the American flag, but, of course, it's refusing to be found . . .
Well, none of my handy links seem to be up, so I can't even blather on about Garrison Flags, Storm Flags or the like (Storm Flag has like a 6' fly dimension). I've a chart in this computer (somewhere) listing the "naval" sizes of flags. The flags are proportional to use (or vessel) and ranger from #1 (largest) to #7 (about 3x5) with a #8 of sorts for small craft and similar uses. An aircraft carrier carries a complete suite of #1 flags, from Ensign, Jack, & so on, through all ofthe signal flags, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
CV-6 and Mrs. Lucie
ran these colors back when
View Image View ImageView Image View Image View ImageView Image View Image View Image Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
My dad's log books show a number of CLs on the Big E, late '43, flying SBDs.
What's your military history on CV-6?
I don't recognize the other reference, but I'm not a Navy veteran.
Hell, I ain't that old..!
Just a P3-A dweeb.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Just a P3-A dweeb.
I'm guessing that translates to some kind of tech specialist on the Orion. So what did you do for your country, young fella? Did your job entail getting airborne?
Yup. VP-66 out of Willow Grove NAS. Listening to fish farts.
ed: this was us.http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/navy/vp-66.htm
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Edited 6/1/2008 1:23 am ET by Sphere
Very distinguished squadron with an amazing safety record. Says a lot for the entire command.
Yeah, we hated to get wet..LOL
Wearing a Mae West in the Atlantic wasn't our idea of a picnic.
A Mae West is a PFD if ya didn't know.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
A Mae West is the PHD of PFDs. ;-)
Yeah, they were the source of humor and complaint for several generations.
Mae West herself was the most famous sex symbol/actress of her generation, the prototype for Dolly Parton and other blondes of similar cleavage (a phenmenon which explains how the PFD got it's name).
She was best known for the often repeated, sultry line: "Why don't ya come up and see me sometime, big boy"?
Edited 6/1/2008 6:54 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
in the Doud collection is a battleship flag from the 1920's (in my bros possession) - the local scout troup took a trip (drove) to DC and were presented this - Dad was along - quite large - but I don't think 60' - hard to display properly - "there's enough for everyone"
quite large - but I don't think 60' - hard to display properly -
Hmm, if I said 60, it was an uh-oh.
Per the chart here: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq129-1.htm
A #1 is 20' x 38'
There should be an ink stamp on the hoist reinforcing that gives a number and type for the flag, along with who made it.
This is interesting, it's from: http://flagspot.net/flags/us-size.html
19th Century. For comparison, here are dimensions used by the U.S. Army, according to Edward S. Farrow, Farrow's Military Encyclopedia (New York: Edward S. Farrow, 1885):
Before anyone asks, the national standard for cavalry regiments was not the S&S, but a blue 2 ft 3 in by 2 ft 5 in flag with the U.S. COA. Cavalry regiments in 1885 carried only the one standard.
Most of the manufacturer's sites cite sizes to 30' x 60' and above (as special order).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
There's one here in town that flies a massive flag like you saw. Pretty dang awesome to be driving towards it at sunset and see it blowing in the wind.
caissons, yes, caissons.
148.3 yards
Ohio State flag.
Hope it's goin in the back yard.
Mike
My gut feel/thumb suck is that you should dig a hole about 4" deep and 2.5 feet in diameter, then dig a post hole another 2 feet deep in the center of that. Rebar between the two holes, daisy like.
Cut a disk of plywood the same diameter as the pole base and drill holes in it to match the base holes. Set your bolts in the plywood with nuts on each side to lock the bolts into position. Set this in place and wire the bolts to your rebar before pouring. Don't forget to level it.
Go to the lumber yard and ask for predug post holes.
get the extra large they are rated for flag poles.
it will tell you how much see-ment you need on the back of the box...
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
ask for predug post holes
ya made me snort wine out my nose...... bad boy <G>
then my work here is done...Cato! to the batmobile...
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
Edited 5/30/2008 6:35 am ET by MisterT
Well, with the wobbly soil we have around here, I'd aim for a hole about 30" deep, tapered from about 24" diameter at the bottom to 30" at the top. Use some scrap to transfer the slot pattern on to, then bolt some allthread to that scrap (I'd probably use 5/8" x 30" with fat fender washers nutted on the in-the-hole ends).
Really good practice would be to hammer a grounding rod into the bottom of the hole and bond that to the anchor bolts
Even better, in my book would be to make a box form 30x30x4" for the top of the hole, so that you could take and have a bit of pavement next to the base of this thing, to give a person a dry place to stand while attending to the flag.
It's also very handy to work out a direction to lower/raise the pole from; fitting a spot for a gin pole to eas that task will reward far in excess of the effort needed. Because, the pole will want lowering. Even with saltwater-designed delrin blocks or sheaves, oiling will want doing (if not, the halyard will break, or the bending clip hooks will come loose, or some other calamity--like the bottom eye of the bottom flag ripping out . . . )
Tapering from small at the bottom to large at the top increases the risk of frost heave, because it gives the ground better grabbing power. For frost heave prevention, tapering the other way is better.Which is not to say there isn't a different reason to taper from small to large.
increases the risk of frost heave
Risk of frost heave in this region low in the last 125,000 years <g>
Might be due some cold, though . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
thank goodness it's not a Texas flag
carpenter in transition
I understand. We don't appreciate those Ohio Pennants down here.All's fair.........TFB (Bill)
I'd rent/borrow or steal a 3pt hitch mounted auger and drill a 12" dia hole 4' deep. Use the bolt jig as said previously.
With the RIGHT J bolts ( Think parking lot light poles).
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "
Me.
"Think parking lot light poles"
Don't even the the big ones just use 18" sono tubes rather than a wide flat footing? I've never seen one being installed, just leaned on them waiting for my wife outside some store.
I'd defer to a common rule of "stancions" and pinnakers on a masted vessel, under full sail a tri master has little anchorage to the deck.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
You sure came a long way from a parking lot at the mall in a hurry!
I do that. LOL
Does the Macadam hold the pole?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
under full sail a tri master has little anchorage to the deck
Huh?
Mast is stepped from the keel, top mast stepped to mast at the doubling, topgallant mast doubled above the topmast. Each of those is given a forestay. The formast forestays out to bowsprit and jib boom to return back to the stem. Masts, in the days of wire rope had four shrouds the side; topmasts three (back to a mast band or to deck by bentick); topgallants two or three returned to a band on the top mast. Backstays are also used, differing nations differing in how "flying" those backstays are set, too. True for three, four, and even five masts, on fabled Panang.
Lots of connections to the deck to support the masts, and that just for standing rigging. Running rigging almost all terminates at the deck edge, especially in the iron-hull era (as you need fewer hands to go aloft, meaning that you can manover faster with fewer mouths to feed).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Hadda say something that would get yer sea fearing butt off the couch, or as the say in Tehas, davenport. There's a grin there, just look at me.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
get yer sea fearing butt off the couch, or as the say in Tehas, davenport
1. Anyone who has experience pelagic ocean in a small vessel has a well-earned fear, if not respect for the interface between Posiedon and Calypso.
2. Onlyest place I ever heard a sofa callt a davenport was in central Indiana. Had kin call one a dy-van oncet, but they were from Cali-forn-i-ay, and right peculiar.
Gots me a couch and a sleeper-sofer, and that's it. No ottomans (nor Turks, nor Kurds, but a couple afghans) about the house, neither.
3. Was raised with Underhill (Harold A., not Roy) handy, secribing sailing ship rigs does not--generally-require getting out source material. (Except for odd-to-me rigs like Felluca, Dhow, as such like.)
4. Do not internet much from the couch, there's a nicer chair in my office space.
5. <GRIN>
6. Back to the point, the last wood mast I whittled was set in sampson posts for easy lowering, and used a fidded topmast to achieve the client's desired length of hoist. Been to this game a time or two already.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Assuming a wind load of 10 lb on each foot of the flag pole, a 12" diameter x 5'-6" deep hole should work in any soil ( clays and silts). If the soils are gravels or sands, then 12" x 4'-6" should work. The foundation should be reinforced with a rebar cage.
If the diameter is increased to 18", the length can decrease about 6"
This info comes from the IBC 2003, Section 1805.7.2.1
Keep in mind that this is only a 15-foot pole. About the same height as an 18-foot extension ladder, and a lot lighter/thinner.Frost heave is one thing I hadn't considered. If this is in hard freeze country then that must be taken into account (and the apron I suggested may be a bad idea unless poured separately).
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
to do my flagpole [ 25'} i used 2 pieces of channel iron 4' in the ground and 4' above
then i put a spacer equal to the pole diameter between the channel , dug a hole with the backhoe and then added concrete , been in place 30 years
for yard light posts i get a oil barrel and cut the ends out and use it as a form after digging a hole the height of the barrel using the hoe
if i recall it takes 8 bags of ready mix mixed in a wheel barrow
i have found if you dont put the base deep enough frost heaves it
By the time you read all this ***** you could have been done!
You've given these guys the wrong information to work with. There is no Ohio flag.
It's a penant, and here in Florida it's what we regard as a universal sign for surrender or choking.
Hi Drew.
We set posts and poles in the ground quite often. Last pole was a 100 foot high electrical light tower. Our structural engineers stress that depth, not slab width, is the key to a successful anchor system. The deeper the foundation, less chance of tip over. A wide, shallow slab such as Hudson suggests would never be approved by our engineers..nomatter how light-weight the flag pole is...because a shallow "footer" can be toppled over more easily than a deep footer. And why waste so much square footage by pouring a wide slab for such a small diameter post?
Our 100 foot tower required a 20 foot deep, welded rebar cage placed in the ground. We used a steel caison pipe as a sort of sono tube and filled the whole thing up with concrete. The diameter of the concrete foundation was about twice the diameter of the light tower's diameter.
Given your situation, I would simply dig a 12 inch dia. hole or slightly larger (depending on the dia. of your flag pole) approx. 4 feet deep (or deeper if your frost line is deeper) with a powered auger post hole digger. Place a sono tube in the hole and brace the tube with some 2x4 scraps and drywall screws so that the tube sits plumb. Pour some gravel into the bottom of the hole..approx 8 inches or so for allowing drainage.
Let the tube extend up out of the ground to whatever finished desired height you like. Actually let the tube extend up slightly higher than your intended finished height; I'll explain later...
As earlier suggested by another poster, make a bolt template from plywood. The template should be square in shape and oversized. Temporarily center the template' bolt pattern on top of the sono tube. Sandwich some scrap lumber against the sonotube and drive some drywall screws from the top of the template down into the scrap lumber. By "locking-in" all 4 sides against the sonotube...you have effectively made a "cap" that can be lifted up off the tube while pouring in the concrete.
When the concrete level is at the desired height, you can easily reposition this cap back in place and thereby set your anchor bolts in position.
You could use 1/2 inch dia all-thread for your anchor bolts. Cut pieces of all thread approx 12 to 16 inches long. Insert each bolt through the template hole and tighten them down with a nut on each side of the template.
Most of the all-thread should be embedded into the concrete, with only an inchor so protruding on the topside. Also, underneath the template, wrap the bottom nut and approx 2 -3 inches down on the all-thread with electrical tape. This tape will keep the threads from getting gummed up from splashing concrete during the pour.
On heavy duty jobs, tying the bottom of the anchor bolts to a rebar cage as others suggested is an excellent idea.... but a simpler and effective way for this little job would be to install a couple of additional nuts near the very bottom of the all-thread section that will be buried in the concrete. The extra nuts will keep the all-thread from pulling loose. A prefabbed rebar cage for this job is also not necessary.
When pouring the last portion of concrete to secure your anchor bolts, make your template more "user friendly" by first removing with a jig saw the "waste area" section of plywood from the middle of the bolt pattern's perimeter. Removal of this middle area will allow you to continue finish pouring the last remaining bit of concrete into the hole when securing your anchor bolts.
It's a good idea to use your hammer to lightly tap on and around the sonotube so as to lessen the chance of concrete honeycombing.
Placing some 1/2 inch dia rebar vertically into the hole during the pour is a good idea for reinforcing the concrete. Yes you could tie up a small cage and insert it into the sonotube beforehand, but this is not really necessary.
Instead, pour the sonotube about halfway full and then insert your vertical rebar. Position rebar so not to interfere with anchor bolt pattern. Pour in another load of concrete about a fourth from the top and then re-install your bolt pattern cap in place on top of sonotube. Continue on with concrete pour until complete.
It's a good idea to leave the sonotube a bit long and not fill the entire tube to the brim. Only pour the concrete up to the taped-off section of all thread. This is your actual finished pour height....so plan and form accordingly.
Next day, remove topside nuts and plywood template. Then remove electrical tape from the bottom-side nuts and the all thread. The bottom nuts stay on and act as base plate levelers. you can add washers too if you like.
Install your flagpole base over the all thread and nut levelers. Torque down the base. Now its time to grout the bolts.The existing gap space between the base and the actual poured concrete can be grouted in using a grout mix that sets up quicky such as SET 45 or hydraulic cement or something similar
By initially leaving the sonotube slightly long (higher) during the concrete pour, the remaining portion of the tube is now used as the grout form for grouting in the base. After grout has set, tear off sonotube down to ground level. Install remaining section of flag pole and you are done.
Although this whole process I just described sounds like a lot of work, it's actually not. Actual amount of concrete needed for a 12inch dia. sonotube placed 4 ft deep is only 4 cu.ft.
AND, to make things even simpler..... if you wanted to, you could skip the whole anchor bolt installation process altogether during the initial sonotube pour. Instead, just let the concrete set up and cure for a couple of weeks and then come back and install the flagpole base by either using wedge bolts, or drill out and use 2 part epoxy to set anchor bolts in place. This would alleviate you from having to buy and cut all-thread, making a template cap, and later having to grout in the bolts. Just insert a sonotube in the ground, pour the concrete and insert some vertical rebar.....very simple, yet just as effective.
Good luck on your project.
Davo
Dave: Thank you so much for the very formal and very descriptive information on setting my flag pole. Along with the added engineering facts. I guess i should be glad its Not a 100 Ft Flage Pole. HaHA. You have proven this web site works and shows another example of what makes America Great. Again Thanks so much.
P.S. If it means anything i will dedicate my first flag raising to you.
Thanks Again. Andy
"Pour some gravel into the bottom of the hole..approx 8 inches or so for allowing drainage."What is a case like this?I can see that if you are setting a wood post, you want to hold it off the bottom, but I don't see why for concrete..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I can see that it might reduce frost heaving slightly, if the hole doesn't go down below the frost line. Also probably useful in expansive soils. But like you I can't see a reason in normal conditions.
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
Great post . I wouldn't use common all thread however for any part of this . Common "all thread" has little tensile strength and under load the cut threads will tear out. Anchor bolts or at least grade 5 bolts secured with a large washer under bolt head and embedded in the concrete will prevent that .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Drew, If you'd would like another good simple option, here it is:
Use a post hole digger and, if available, a long steel point to dig a vertical hole to a depth of about 30"-36" Dig it clean and as symetrical as possible, without disturbed the surrounding soil.
It will end up being about one foot in diameter. It can be smaller in diameter but should be at least 30" deep.
Mix the concrete fairly stiff and pour it directly into the hole, without a form. This hole will require only about 5-6 60# bags of sacrete.
A post hole digger is hard work in most soils. It makes the shoulder muscles burn, some other muscles too. It may take several efforts to get it done. And of course, you'll have to buy or borrow a tool/tools which is/are seldom if ever used.
This is a better method than digging a big hole with pick and shovel, then putting in a form, backfilling and pouring the concrete. The reason it's better is because it's a tight fit with undisturbed soil surrounding the concrete and because it's a lot less expense.
This is, overall, a better footing for your flag pole than my previous suggestion about a 5'X5' foot base. It just requires learning how to dig with an awkward tool, burning some new muscles...and the expense of buying the thing.
Best of luck and thanks for flying Old Glory.
Edited 5/31/2008 7:29 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Dude, you just aptly said what DW I did for our veranda posts.
Cedar trees about 13' tall and 12" dia. at base. We chopped the roots in the top 5-6" of soil with a spade, then chopped the clay with a "dibble bar" 6' long steel with a tamper end. Extracted the clay clods with a PHD..what a work out!
we've only got 4 in so far, 10 more to go.yikes.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
what a work out!
Yup. That's why I stayed away from suggesting that method to begin with.
The first time I ever tried to use a post hole digger, I threw it down after a few minutes, disgusted with the poor progress I was making and serious burn I was getting.
I was in pretty good shape but those muscles are just not normally used in that way. Working with that tool is certainly not going to make the average DIYer very happy.
On the other hand, I've seen guys who do fencing put a hurtin' on a post hole digger, chomping out a foot and a half hole in a few minutes.
Edited 5/31/2008 9:11 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
One thing is, two or 2.5 feet is about the limit of a conventional PHD, because the handles start bumping the sides. Units with offset handles can go a bit deeper, but beyond about 3 feet you need an auger.How much work a PHD is depends, of course, on the soil.
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
Good point Dan. I checked Lowe's. They have the off set PHD for $33.
My appreciation of PHDs is limited to that one early attempt. Since then I've enjoyed watching others go crazy with them from time to time, often with good effect.
They do require a certain amount of uumph on the down stroke (watch out for your toes).
I got curious about what might be the manufacturer's recommended method for installing your flag pole so googled "flag pole installation" this morning and came up with this http://www.anchorflagandflagpole.com/Commercial_Installation.htm among others.
After reading this page I called the company and spoke with their installation guy. He confirmed what this page says; depth of footing 10% of the height of the pole by about one foot in diameter.
Just don't want to see anyone hurt themselves or their wallet, overbuilding a simple footing like this.
Also thumbing my nose at all of you self styled engineers. Even my suggestion about a 30" deep, 12" diameter footing is overkill, according to those with years of experience.