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I watched a great framer yesterday. He took real pains to make sure the wood was crowned, level, and square. He culled over 15% of the wood that was in the pile. (including a whole bunker of 3/4 tounge and groove ply that was cut out of square).
He was a younger kid (late twenties) who was building in a developement. Not high dollar homes but midlevel.
I asked why he was so picky, (his crew was just as fussy) He said that his budget had 10% for quality. He couldn’t effectively advertize so he thought that doing 1 st class work would get him where he wanted to be.
In well over a decade of visiting framing crews, I hear just about everyone tell me that they do real quality work, yet only three times have I seen it in fact. Most framing is done to the “well, it’ll get covered up” standard.
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wow......I'll take his work any day!!
*Yea, it'll get covered up alright. Then the rest of the trades have to battle with the don't care type framers. I've seen some sloppy work in all sorts of homes includings walls in a few cases that were out of square by more than 3."Sure, you can cover that blunder with carpet, but not with tile or hardwood. In those two cases I couldn't understand how the super on the job could allow it to happen. Apparently both framing crews were new and that's "all we could find."That guy(crew) will have no problem finding work once the word spreads.Wouldn't one think to check their work during the progress? Or was it a matter of "just get it done?"
*I have had the priviledge of working for a guy like that. I worked for him for 2 months. (He needed help on one house and I was between jobs)He called out measurements in 16ths PLUS or SHY!! And that was on the rough framing. This guy was extreme by todays standards. But he slept real good at night. And he was in very high demand. Stayed small. Turned down 20+ houses for each one he did. His biggest complaint was people trying to beg him to do their work. He also got to set his own price. No bids.The word on the street was... "If you want a really good builder I can give you some names, but if you want perfection there is only one guy...Gary Graber."Didn't take much longer either. He also had the production techniques down pat to increase efficiency at the same time. A rare bird indeed. And it was a pleasure. Unfortunately it was his next to last house. He didn't like his work (well, he did, but it wasn't his first love) so he sold out, moved to Nevada and is a hay farmer. Thinks he has the world by the tail.
*Thats quite impressive but unfortunately I would have to say in my part of the country that is not near the standard. In fact, if he had a 10% over in his budget for culls, he likley wouldn't have gotten the job as here you have to eat 10% to get any work and they'll likely have you tearing apart old pallets to use as door headers! Too much competition and too little quality.I hate to be so cynical but thats why I'm closing my business. I tried to deliver quality and pride in my work but was always bumped out by the guy who could do it faster and cheaper no matter what it looked like.I would indeed love to work with that individual as well as many other of you guys who frequent this site. Shoot, half the guys I see at jobs can't even spell computer let alone post at a message board.Mike
*Well, I thought everyone who calls themselves a "carpenter" builds the way that has been discribed. I know I do and the people I work with with do.It's not that hard, in fact it's easyier then doing it wrong and having to fix it later.Vince
*Oh yeah Vince? Try being in my shoes as a plumber. Very few do. Shows up when I set the tubs. I believe you do. Keep it up and never let the bad ones get you down!! It does my heart good to see posts like yours.
*Thanks Wet,The plumber we use loves me,so does the electrican.For that matter so does the excavator and the mason.I take pride in my work,even what the customer can't see.Don't get me wrong, I'm not perfect but paying attention to details and making sure that everything is done the way I would want it in my own home gives me great pleasure.And by the way I make money at this too.What more could I ask for.Vince
*Vince, I wish I shared your experiences. I'm currently wrapping up my own house and almost every person that stops in tells me how its overbuilt and I didn't need to do this or shouldn't have done that... I guess thats why I've had trouble making money in the biz. I do too much and pay too much attention to detail? Who knows?Mike
*Mike, just keep hanging in,I live in a rural area where sometimes work is hard to come by,but we haven't been slow for years.I'm not the least expensive guy around either.But people wait months for me to come do their projects.Vince
*Vince, Thanks for the words of encouragement. Sounds like some sound advice.Mike
*You're welcome Mike.Vince
*People have different standards for the word "quality."I have never seem plywood out of square that a good carpenter could not apply it correctly. Your "good" carpenter may be hiding a lack of real skill.Last year I put up a ceiling using I-Joists (no crown). 4 of them were not straight. I cut some tapered shims (1/8"/4' 10' long). And continued on with my work. Should I have returned the joists and wasted a couple days of time.A good carpenter does his work with the materials he is given. We all have different definitions of "quality."I just reread Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance.
*How much do I spend on quality? Whatever it takes, and then pass on the cost to the customer, accordingly.My customers hire me BECAUSE of the quality issues. They are getting tired of getting half assed jobs for outrageous money. Suits me just fine. Do qauality work, and your reputation spreads. Do crappy work, and it will spread FASTER.James DuHamel
*Sing it Ken! Sing it Michael! It's only when the interior finishes go in that it becomes apparent to most owners how screwed up the framing is, by then he's already long gone.I too have been so hammered by the 'competition' that I took it as the writing on the wall. Even though for the past 10 years most of my work is refferral, I still lose too many jobs to those hacks. Not much I have ever said to owners to educated them about quality has ever sunk in. Not enough owners see the difference between what I do and those others. That is, until after the job completion. Then they say, "I shoulda' gone with you." Arrrggghhh, if I hear that one more time...
*Michael R.Don't hang it up......you simply have not found your "market nitch".Take on smaller, more detailed jobs. Do the one thing at the top of your skill & love to do list and you will find what your looking for........may take a little time but stick with it.Luck
*George, I don't know about your area, but around here if the material isn't up to snuff most lumberyards will pick it up. Some charge a restocking charge but most won't if you are careful to explain what the problems are they just send it off to someone less fussy! Most carpenters seem to grab whatever is next in the pile and never check for crown, length or anything! Next time you see a pile of 2x4's carefully measure them for length, 3/8's is normal tolerance & I've seen more than a half on studs that were suposed to be the same length. Nailing seems to be a very sloppy affair. Toenailed rafters (which I hate) seem to come in for particular lack of care. The result is a roof that relies on gravity more than anything else. I doubt I see more then 2% of the rafters done with anything more than toenails! Simpson connectors are cheap and still reasonable as far as labor goes. I'm certain that there will always be the guy who wants the cheapest job. Who wants to work for those guys anyway? Sell what you do. It's called value added. Do the extras take some pictures with little captions (stories) put them in a book and bring it to every bid or quote. Don't talk money until you explain value!! Got a guy who constantly underbids you? go take some pictures of his goofs (carefull, don't write who they are for libility reasons) but show pictures of what you do right and what others do wrong. Now faced with that you will either get more for your work or find someone who will. A picture is worth ...... Nah, you don't need to be a profeesional photographer, I use those disposable cameras 'cause I have lousy luck with real cameras.
*Well well well, it seems you pros have to pay your bills too! How often I see some of you trashing DIYers on this forum...As a DIYer I go for the highest level of craftsmanship I can attain. I take my labor savings and invest them in better quality materials. I figure a typical DIYer loses 50% to efficiency, so if I spend that loss on quality I'm far ahead of your 10% cull.My client is my family. They get the best I can muster. Otherwise, why bother? I could just turn to a tract builder and move every 5 years to stay ahead of the building failures.
*Rein, you don't get it and are irritating. Sorry.
*agreed.
*I think the issue here is not only "quality", but "pride" and "respect". As a beginning woodworker and DIY carpenter, I wish our area had more guys like you. I don't mind paying the "extra" for quality work to guys (and gals) who take pride in their craftmanship.I am having a garage built and am unbelievably happy (so far) that I went with the higher bid, the quality difference really shows. I think it is a shame that people today don't take enough pride in the quality of their work. My dad tought me different.
*Fastening rafters or trusses to the plate with metal connectors, or hurricane clips as we call them, is code here in Western Washington. Showing photos of what you do, compared to what your competiton does is about the lowest form of hucksterism I've ever heard of. No self respecting professional cares enough about what someone else is doing to take the time to take pictures of it, much less badmouth other's practices to a potential customer. Build to your own standards, and keep looking for ways to raise your own bar. Your skills, value and demand for your services will match your standards. Never, EVER, point out how much better your work is than someone else's. That's not for you to decide.
*Ahhh, quality....as it happens, I'm tearing out my front porch (started as replacing the step, then found out the whole thing is rotten), and the subject of quality is on my mind (and my wife is getting sick of hearing it). This porch is only about 10-11 years old; non treated lumber (on a frigging island in the north atlantic), paint only where it shows, basically just hacked together by the chimps that screwed up the rest of the house....sorry, deep breath, it's just that anything in this house I get stuck into takes a whole lot longer than it should because it was screwed up at the beginning. For instance, the floor boards were nailed into the ledger (which is just spiked into the rim joist), and then they brough t the board and batten siding down tight onto the floor boards....covering the nails. I can't get a sawzall under most of them, so I'm having to smash them out. A doubled ledger or some nailers, and replacing them would have been a breeze.A lot of it comes down to good materials, used correctly, with an eye to eventual replacement....thinking longterm. I could throttle the guys that built my house (I knew some of it going in, but not all....).This business of "if you do quality, they will come"....that's not how it works, mostly, from what I've seen, but that's just my opinion. Price is just way too important for some people.Unrelated...I just heard the US lumber people got what they wanted....19% tariff on Canadian lumber (1/3 of every stick used in the States now; the American lumber people wanted 39%, and their arguments are so ridiculous....). So add a grand or two to the cost of every house you put up from now on.
*o
*I was talking to a bud today and I told him I was looking at windows. i was at HD rest assured I would never buy windows there i was just looking. he told me when I was ready he could get me a cheaper price from one of his suppliers and Id get a better quality window. My reply was I dont care If I pay the same or a little more I want the best quality that I can afford. As a DIYer/pt hack i try to do my work the best I can with the best mat'ls I can afford. i think that is whats it all about.
*I din't mean that $0.00 is what I'd pay for quality. I was just marking the thread cause I got called for dinner.I include 15% for waste in my pricing. That's just the way it is. I order an extra 15% of material. I can use a lot for blocking and braces but I'm also on an island so returns are not an easy do. Sometimes we get the impression that they deliver the crap out here because of that but I know it aint as devious as that. The guys who pick up their own cull the pilke at the lumberyard and then when the driver is making his load he just takes what's on top. I will not use crap. The customer pays the bill. When I first meet a new client, I start out making sure they hear me say that I am not the cheapest builder on the island. Usually the reply ios, "We already know that. We've hired cheap builders before. Now we want a good one." Actually, the standards are high here. Most all of the local boys do well. Proud to work alongside of them. That makes me think that considering some other posts above, that the locality may have an inbred culture in what it expects of it's builders. One who shines by comparison in one place may be an also ran in another. I play a better game of chess against a champ than against a bored beginner. Competition helps to raise the bar if the focus is on quality. It helps lower the cost if the focus is on money.
*Amen Jim.Don't EVER bad mouth your competition. The customers won't like it, it makes ya look bad (and sound like a complainer), and you have no idea what the deal between the customer and the contractor was. When a customer starts telling me that xxx contractor did a job for them, and it was terrible, I simply nod my head and say something like "Ain't that something". I don't agree with them, nor do I disagree with them. I remain absolutely NEUTRAL. Then I just do the best job that I can, and move on.James DuHamel
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I watched a great framer yesterday. He took real pains to make sure the wood was crowned, level, and square. He culled over 15% of the wood that was in the pile. (including a whole bunker of 3/4 tounge and groove ply that was cut out of square).
He was a younger kid (late twenties) who was building in a developement. Not high dollar homes but midlevel.
I asked why he was so picky, (his crew was just as fussy) He said that his budget had 10% for quality. He couldn't effectively advertize so he thought that doing 1 st class work would get him where he wanted to be.
In well over a decade of visiting framing crews, I hear just about everyone tell me that they do real quality work, yet only three times have I seen it in fact. Most framing is done to the "well, it'll get covered up" standard.