No, no. I don’t mean in general! I already know the answer to that!
A while back I was replacing a powered attic exhaust fan. But I forgot to have the customer turn off the power and I had no way to enter the house.
So I very carefully removed the wirenuts and deliberately shorted the hot to the neutral to throw the breaker.
So, how stupid was that??
Rich Beckman
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Replies
Do it all the time at least you know the breaker works! and it's also a sure fire way to figure out which breaker is which in the future. DAN
you folks have been lucky that's all...lucky that the breaker worked
...lucky that the grounds were all tied together
....lucky that you didn't start a fire,it always amazes me how far people will go when it comes to electricity in a house....like the jokers that get their kicks using their fingers to check for live circuits...most here will claim that it ain't rocket science anyway.....but foks will simply keep doing this stuff until something goes wrong and then they will probably want to sue the Mfrs. for selling defective equipment..anyone who trusts a CB to perform flawlessly 100% of the time is naive, to say the least...lucky, just plain lucky.
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The knob-and-tube circuit in my house was on two separate 20 amp breakers, you could short the wires forever and not trip either of them. Not knowing this for a year or so of living here, I moved one of the breakers in question and wound up with 240v across the basement lighting. Immediate darkness.
well there ya go....!.
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That sounds somehow familiar (|:>)SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
...lucky that the breaker worked ...lucky that the grounds were all tied together....lucky that you didn't start a fire,
Lucky the breaker worked? That's what they're designed to do. It's not luck that caused it to work, it was engineeering. It would have been against strong odds if it was one of the rare breakers that didn't work. And if it didn't work, the most common response after trying to forde trip a breaker is to short the wires again to see if it worked.
Lucky the grounds were all tied together? you mean the odds are that they weren't? And if they were in fact not installed as normally done, Rich would have said, "Hey! how come no spark? There was supposed to be an earth shattering spark!"
Lucky he didn't start a fire? In order for a fire to have started somewhere the conditions to be met would be that one of the two wires had a high resistance spot in it. Higher than the point contact made when just touching two wires together .Then the heat generated over the few milliseconds of sparking contact would have had to have been immediately transfered to a readily flammable fuel rather than back along the copperof the wire itself. This could only occur if the bad spot in the wire was in close contact with the fuel.Finally, if those conditions existed the fire would be much more likely to occur after the equipment was energised and applied a long term load on that high resistance spot so rapidly buring the wire in two probably saved the house from burning down.
Given the odds that the wires would continue to work as they had been for years are1:357,284,289.7 vs the odds of 1:25 that Rich would be seriously injured or killed. . . .
Only someone whose retirement plan is winning the largest Powerball in history would choose not to force the breaker.
SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
well I don't play Powerball, and I resent your insult .
you give the impression that no one but you and a few others here know a wire has two ends... and the but since I do this for a living, over the past four decades I've seen too many incidents of guys burning their Kleins up, or welding the ends of pipe cutting into wires they figured were dead since they pulled this stunt, ....it's a dangerous trick that most folks seem to enjoy performing...I ain't one of them, nor are the other electricians I work around, granted, there is the occasional cowboy but once they see the light they quit doing itif folks want to assume that the wiring is correct and proper, ....something that more than a few homes do not have..
go ahead knock yourself out..I would re-tell a story about a young man who lost his life standing on some switchgear when there was a fault and the breaker never tripped..but I don't want to waste your timejust don't try to convince me that ALL breakers work ALL the time because they don't.so yeah, Rich and others are lucky.
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I'm with you maddog, I was working on a job installing a kitchen where a week or so later an electrician's helper died when he went down to the damp basement to do some work. not sure what exactly happened but I'm sure he wasn't expecting it. Electricity is more complicated than people think it is. seen a melted panel box on another job once. wasn't pretty."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini
he most likely used a live wire to scratch off the numbers on his Lotto ticket ....
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LOL
Touche'SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
yes, let's move on.
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Customer not home... can't get in to turn off power.
I'd short it out in a heartbeat and with my luck the circuit would also be tied to a freezer full of food, a sump pump and the garage door opener that the customer uses as their sole means of entry.
> Lucky the breaker worked? That's what they're designed to do. So? My last house had a load panel in it with six breakers. Five of them would not trip under any circumstances. I didn't test the ones in the main panel (which was older). I just replaced it.He's lucky the breaker worked. Sometimes they don't.George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
I do it all the Time!
You think I would pay for this hair style......
View Image
I do it all the time., i have change out complete ballast system hot, just so I can see while doing it.
Mr. "Electro" Hartmann will undoubtedly be here soon to chastice you properly but I'd say semi to soft-boiled stupid.
If the wiring you used as your instant breaker tracer was light gauge you could've gotten hurt or permanently damaged the wiring and wound up buying a new fan for your clients.
PaulB
Actually depending on the type of materials and how much room that you had to work it might have been safer to just change it hot than to force trip it..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BILL!!!
I'm ... "shocked". Next you'll be condoning buried j-boxes ;)
PaulB
When needed, I do that also.
roger
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...whatdyacrazy?
You're opening up "CanOWorms #113"
PaulB
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
roger
ROFLMAO!!!I opened up the General Discussion folder and saw thirteen replies and I thought "Oh sh!t!!! I must've been even stupider than I thought!!"I guess not.
For the record...I never went into the attic...I was already replacing the fan...I'm not sure I have the cajones to wire it live, you should've seen me getting ready to trip it...VERY paranoid.
Thanks to all.
Rich BeckmanThis signature line intentionally left blank.
Edited 4/17/2007 11:04 pm by RichBeckman
Bill
I force trip all the time - whats the down side to doing it?
Wouldnt force triping be equivilant to doing what the breaker was meant to do?
I've never had any problem doing it but I'm just wondering how I could be doing anything wrong.
Doug
It is not that the force tripping is that bad (but it is not good for breaker life), but rather the relative safety, in this case, of the two options.With the forced tripping you have the hot and neutral exposed that you are trying to move one to the other and maybe a grounded metal box. And a mis-slip you can get between them.With the fan (and this depends on the what type of wiring that you have and if it is in a metal box, etc.But I would up cap the hot and separate the wires. Now this assumes that the wires separate easily. If not it is much more dangerous and would go wiwth tripping or delay the work.Then recap the hot so that you are clear.Then change out the neutral and ground connections. Then reconnect the hots using the wirenut to twist them together. Now if it is a case where the wires are stiff and not parallel to each other I would be less likely to do it hot..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I guess the one argument that I can come up with against "force-tripping" a breaker is, what if the breaker is bad?
I have on rare occasions run across an old breaker that for whatever reason no longer trips when overloaded. The potential here is similar to the ol' "penny in the fuze" situation of the olden days. He indicated that the homeowner had left and that he no longer had access to the inside of the house and therefore the breaker box, (At least that's what I think he was saying) So by shorting those wires you might potentially cause a wire to overheat somewhere along that circuit and perhaps start a fire that you may or may not discover before you finish the job and vacate the premises.
Ok, I know this is literally a one in a billion type of scenario, but hey, we're all aquainted with Murphy's law... " If I were a carpenter"
The down side is that breakers don't always trip, I've done it many times, but only when I can get to the breaker box. I also check with a meter to make sure the current is acually off. Luck........................................
"If all else fails, read the directions"
let me get this right...you carefully unwired a hot circuit and then just shorted it out to kill the power !!!!!!!
..so you could do......what?
BTW .that was kinda dumb....
lucky for you the breaker tripped
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Your first mistake was going in the attic. <g>
_______________________________________________________________
Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
When needed, I do it.
roger
Field testing the breaker system, huhi do live in Alabama, so my advice might be worthless
How stupid is that?
Wonder what happens if the wires weld themselves to each other because somebody screwed a penny behind the fuse....
Seriously, Rich, you never know what's in the walls or the panel until you look. I'd rather work hot than take a chance on burning the joint down. But then, I bill by the hour....
Dinosaur
DON'T MISS THE FEST!
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
I do that sometimes ...
but usually I just work hot.
Keeps ya on yer toes ... just pay attention and no one dies.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Least wise no who lives to talk about it. ;-)
Do it all the time.
Mike
Well, I appreciate the responses. Nice to know that I wasn't too wacko...A couple of points.I created the short by touching the hot to the neutral, not to the ground. At least one response above seems to assume I used the ground.Why that assumption? Would it have been better to short to the ground?? That doesn't make sense to me. The fan worked (the housing was damaged), so I knew the neutral was good.Dinosaur posts that the wires could've welded together. Was this really a possibility?? To be clear, when I shorted the wires, I did so by flicking one against the other (each held firmly, one in each hand) so they touched in only the slightest, briefest moment. Can they weld in such a moment?I wouldn't dream of holding the wires together waiting for the breaker to throw. If just flicking them like that didn't throw the breaker, I would've either done it live or waited for access to the box.
Rich BeckmanThis signature line intentionally left blank.
Dinosaur posts that the wires could've welded together. Was this really a possibility??
Very unlikely. Probably about the same as those odds that Sam posted regarding the breaker!
Doug
On the few occasions where I've done this I've always been careful to "flick" the wires together, as you say, and been prepared to yank on the wire a bit if necessary should it weld.Another way to do it is with a screwdriver shaft (insulated handle) placed between the wires. This gives you more leverage to work with should a weld occur.Keep in mind that should a weld occur (and the breaker not trip) you have about a second to react before the entire circuit melts down. And, in about 0.3 seconds, the wire in your hand will be hot, with melted insulation.But I've never had the wires weld.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Its best that when you short the wire, to scream in a high voice " oh, my god" then shake alot and fall back kicking.i do live in Alabama, so my advice might be worthless
The Roseland Ballroom in NYC used to keep a 2x4 next to the 400 amp stage disconnect, just to to knock a guy loose if he got zapped tying in live. Never worked there enough to see anyone get fried, but there musta been a reason for it.
If you work hot and get killed, your insurance may not pay.
If you short the wires and get killed, your insurance may not pay.
I would have waited for the customer to come back.
Will they replace the banjo you were holding in the other hand?
Go to JLC and see what Joe sez :-)
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
I'm on my way over to JLC tomorrow to watch for this.... could be great fun. Going out to the barn to find my hardhat just in case it gets real. Kidding aside, it was a great post and really pertinent to some of us who (in rural areas) have to work outside of our trades. It explained a lot. Stupid maybe, stupid question NOT!!
Well Joe think that since Rich is not a licenesed electrican that he should go to jail.But if he was licensed and killed a kid they it would be OK.http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32727.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"Well Joe think that since Rich is not a licenesed electrican that he should go to jail."Well, yeah. Except there is no licensing of electricians in the state of Indiana and none in my locality.Plumbers got to be licensed, but not electricians.
Rich BeckmanThis signature line intentionally left blank.
"Except there is no licensing of electricians in the state of Indiana and none in my locality."That is a minor detail to the faithfull over there.Read the thread.http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32727And it got so bad that someone else started another poll.http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36343.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
There must be some type of licensing.
It's probably just not required in your area.
Who dares, wins.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
St. Joseph County ..which includes South Bend wants a license, but my county which is right next door doesn't require one Indiana is a hodgepodge of requirements with hardly any reciprocity that I know of.
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Kentucky used to be like that up until a few years ago. Now they want one state wide. And they want a licensed electrician to do everything. New circuits. Adding a receptacle. Everything. Unless your swapping out same for same you have to have a license.
Who dares, wins.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
GunnerLook at this thread.Starting on the 3rd page there is story about a 5 yo boy in Lousiville that was killed by metal garage door that was hot. It was caused by soem 14-2 used instead of 14-3 for a 2-way switch and the ground wire was used for one of the travelers.It was done by a licensed electrican/electrical contractor. But it appears that the actual work was done by a helper.http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32727.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
For some reason I think I've seen Brackney electric around. Before mandatory licensing came along we always bitched about jack legs doing faulty electric work.
The complaint now is that all those jack legs got grand fathered in. So maybe in 20 years after they all get weeded out of the trade it might be a good thing but for now it really hasn't changed the quality. BUT! They can jerk your license and prevent you from ever doing electric work again.
We have two guys in our shop that lied and got grand fathered in. I had to explain to one guy what a neutral was and how it worked. The other guy is a shade smarter. They don't do any electric work thank god. They got their licenses just in case it was ever needed.
Who dares, wins.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
You were stupid to tell everyone how stupid you were. I've got two words for you Federal Pacific.
I googled this up for you real quick.
http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpefire.htm
Who dares, wins.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
I do it often, usually with my sawzall blade when I'm cutting into a wall...
You've never worked on a client's house that had wiring all screwed up? Give me a break.
You had no way of knowing how well all the connections along the way are made up. We've all seen wires simply twisted together and covered with cheap vinyl tape, perhaps in a box, perhaps not. Even "perfectly fine" wiring that's back stabbed is just waiting for an excuse to quite working.
If a sub, any sub, purposefully shorted a circuit, especially an old existing circuit, I'd ask them to take the day off to think about it. If they don't see the error of their ways we can come up with a final check amount for the work they've done to date and call it water under the bridge. Having seen an electrical fire in person caused by an arc I have no problem reducing my risk by eleminating the problem.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Whoops!!! I thought I invented that!!..
Only to justify my act, I think its ok..
Bud
Evidently smarter than me. I would have hot wired it.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
I have a screw driver that I use frequently to do just that.
Cross the circuit, and it blows.. leaves quite a gouge in the driver tho, so I only use it for that purpose
I probably would have wired it hot, but only if I had confidence in the wiring. In older houses, where you may have a fusebox and/or old cloth/rubber wiring it's dangerous to do either. You never know when a fuse has been replaced with a penny or some of the wiring in the circuit is old lamp cord, so intentionally shorting the circuit can be dangerous. And wiring hot is risky with old wiring where the insulation may flake off without warning.
Wiring hot isn't that difficult or dangerous, BTW, if the connections are made with wirenuts or easily-loosened screw terminals. You first disconnect the hot and tape it up, then disconnect the neutral and ground. Straighten the wires and wrap the end with more tape to protect the "hot" tape from getting pulled off, then withdraw the wire from the box. Reverse the procedure to reconnect.
Of course, insulated screwdriver and pliers are a good idea ;) .
Several posts have talked about older wiring and fuse boxes.The house in question is probably twenty years old or less. A nice houseI don't trust fuses much. And I've seen plenty of very suspicious wiring in many old homes in Marion. I really don't think I would have done it on an older home.
Novy,They would have given me a key if I asked. I just failed to anticipate the need. Actually, I have a key now.
Rich BeckmanThis signature line intentionally left blank.'
Please don't take offense but personally I would never work for a customer that didn't trust me enough to give me a key and secondly I allways use a licensed electrician due to liability issues.
On a hill by the harbour