I am designing and building a railing that is mostly a visual deterrent so people will not trip over a single stair that tapers down to level on one side. I am not sure how to attach the railing to the floor. A little bit about the design:
The railing is 24″ tall, straight, 12 feet long, has 4 legs ~ 3.5 inches square, made of Walnut and has no wall to attach too, so it must anchor well enough from the floor. The floor is carpet over concrete so I need to anchor into the concrete. I will be making the legs by mitering 4 – 3/4″ thick pieces together and putting a core or poplar in the middle. As mentioned, the rail is mostly a visual railing and should get only the occasional person putting any weight on it – but it must hold up to that. I am open to any anchor that works, but would prefer something that is low profile and not ugly; this is for a church in the front of their worship space.
One thing I’ve thought of is making the legs “hollow” from the bottom to accommodate a pole or hidden anchor but this could be a bit time consuming finding the right dimension pole and floor attachment etc.
Any recommendations on how to attach this railing?
Thanks
Replies
I've seen newel posts run through the subfloor and braced below. It's real slick and definitely solid. But your posts have to be long enough.
Since it's a concrete floor, I don't have a subfloor. Any other suggestions?
How about square steel plates with square steel tubes welded to the plates. Bolt the plates to the floor and slip the wood posts over the steel tubes. The carpet would hide the plates.
Or, a DIY version would be to bolt heavy angle brackets to the floor (4 per post with Tapcons) and screw these to a wood core. Slip the finished posts over the wood cores.
Or, you could drill big holes into the slab, pound in lengths of galvanized steel pipe and sequre with hydraulic cement.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Since it's a concrete floor, I don't have a subfloor. Any other suggestions?
A threaded rod set into hole with a chemical fastener ( Hilti..etc.) would be very solid. The portion of the threaded rod above the concrete will enter through a hole drilled in the bottom of the newelpost. A larger hole drilled into the side of the newelpost will allow access for a washer, nut and the end of a wrench to tighten the assembly. A plug is then inserted into the larger hole to hide the inner workings.
Properly cut and with a matching grain, the plug would be nearly invisible.Gord
St.Margaret's Bay NS
Probably the simplest is to drill a big (1.5" or so) hole and epoxy in a piece of pipe maybe 3/4" ID and two feet long. Then design the post to slip over that and fasten with a screw into the pipe.
Don't use a pipe flange. Too apt to break, either the flange itself or the threaded portion of the pipe.
If you don't want to drill the big hole, have someone weld up a flange on a piece of square tubing, then fasten that with lead shield anchors.
Brian
Fiberon railing systems has a post mount bracket, about 24 " tall, that is bolted to concrete decks. Once it is bolted to floor a 3 1/2" square sleeve slips over it. I think this is the easiest way to go. Greg in connecticut
I'm interested in this option, but am having trouble finding info on their products. Their website has lots of info about their railing, but none about the attachment hardware. Do you have any part ##s, model ##s or someone I can contact to get more info?
Thanks
Brian try this link
http://www.fibercomposites.com/rail_install.asp
greg
I recently installed a newel post at the top of a set of stairs that required it being as solid as can be. What I did was use 2 threaded rods (1/4 or 3/8) running the full lenth of the post. In the case of concrete underneath, I would epoxy the rods into the concrete and then rout a groove around the inside of the post down about 1.5 inches from the top of your post and slid a piece of wood into the grooves with holes drilled into to let the threaded rod through. put a couple of fender washers and a nut on the rod and tighten it down and as long as the rod is well epoxied, the post isn't going anywhere.
Hope this helps
I second Cara's reply.
I've done this very thing a couple of times. I hammer drill into the concrete at a slight angle (to increase the withdrawal strength a bit) and set the all-thread in epoxy. When the epoxy is set up, the rod can be bent vertical and the post set over it and sucked down tight.
OK, now I understand this and like it a lot - two questions:
How far would you drill into the cement for a 24" tall post?
Any particular type of Epoxy you recommend?
Thanks
How thick is the concrete? Is it slab on grade or is it a spancrete type floor? I would probably drill in at least 3" and at an angle, make sure all the dust is cleaned out of the hole and be sure to let the epoxy fully set. I just use the epoxy next to the bolts at the big box store. It is probably a Simpson StrongTie product, since they have cornered the market on the metal ties.
In a somewhat related topic a few weeks ago (Railing post to porch attach method?) I posted this answer as to how to anchor to a concrete slab with epoxy msg# 49466.18 in response to a question from Vince (msg# 49466.14) My origional post there that explains how we use expoxy in our railing installations is msg# 49466.4 which gives more background information on the techniques.
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This is an interesting idea, but I have a couple of questions:
For a 24" tall stair rail, how long would you recommed the lag bolts be?
I'm assuming you sink the lag bolts into the leg and then epoxy the leg into the cement? Is this correct?
Thanks for the info.
brianB - "For a 24" tall stair rail, how long would you recommed the lag bolts be?"
As shown in the sketch the lag bolts only need to be long enough to grab the post and and reach down to the bell shaped bottom of the hole which was 4" so a 6" bolt would work fine in that situation. You might need only one bolt per post instead of the two I drew in the sketch. It really all depends on the size and mass of the balustrade assembly so that part is a judgement call you would have to make.
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"I'm assuming you sink the lag bolts into the leg and then epoxy the leg into the cement? Is this correct?"
Yup, correct. Although I should add that we genrally do add some filler to the epoxy when using West Systems epoxy (404 collodial silica) to thicken it up a little and to add some more strength. I think the epoxy that Simpson Strong Tie makes has some kind of filler already designed into it.
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System designed for this application:
http://www.decksupplies.com/rails.html#anchor98995
Check, newel post mounts.
A piece of steel, fastened to the bottom of the newel and bolted to the concrete, could be done with lags, or wedge anchors.
The system looks very strong and leveled easily.
Gord
St.Margaret's Bay NS
Edited 12/4/2004 10:50 pm ET by gordzco
Edited 12/4/2004 10:59 pm ET by gordzco
That's certainly a valid method for attaching newel posts and it very similar to a system L.J. Smith has too. LJ-3009 L-Bracket™ Newel Post Anchor (3" Newels) used to mount newel posts on finished floor surfaces. I googled up a decent illustration of them on this page (http://web.inetba.com/westfire/item104339.ctlg)
To tell you the truth though I absolutely hate the look of that technique and that was probably part of the motivation that helped lead us to doing it the way we do it now with the epoxies. I appreciate it as a possible solution and alternative but I just really hate the look. It also like the little flanges that you see on so many metal baluster installations and I hate them too. You know these things:
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I much prefer the look of a baluster or post that appears to disappear into the railing, parapet, or stair tread to those the look like they are attached with shoes. Same thing for newel posts. If a client really preferred that look I guess we would do it but no one ever has that I can recall. I had a builder once give me a set of LJ-3009 L-Brackets and when I asked the home owner what they wanted telling them I could do it without the cover molding at the base of the newel they choose the cleaner look.
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Edited 12/4/2004 11:50 pm ET by Jerrald Hayes
I use a #3005 keylock fastener for mounting newels over ceramic tile. They work very well, you have to reverse the mounting procedures. The plate would recess into the newel and the lag would go in the concrete.
You need to play with the height on the lag bolt head on the first one but it is very strong. Everything is hidden and I like that part too.
have a great day
Everyone has been a world of help - thanks for your time and assitance. I think I'm going to use your option for at least part of the installation, but I have one last question. How do you create the bell shaped bottom at the bottom? I;ve thiought about this quite a bit and can think of no easy option.
A special drill bit per haps??
Thanks again.
Just moving the drill around in the hole will give you a bell. Doesn't have to be much of a bell. Just slightly larger at the bottom of the hole. However when the hole is deeper than the slab is thick and your into the gravel base a bigger bell shaped bottom is even easier to achieve. Ya just have to have some way of blowing the dust out of the hole; either a blow nozzle on a compressor, a vacuum, or a straw. If you try to just blow into to it you get a face-full of dust so watch out for that.One other caution for you. When pouring the epoxy into the hole you have to make sure it's staying in the hole and not draining out into some cavity below. Stick a wad of cotton or paper in the bottom of the hole to plug any leaks you may find.
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I once did something that wazs a variation on a suggestion made above and it worked. Still wortks as far as I know.
Drill into the concrete and install an expansion sleeve type bolt - I call them Hilti bolts as I think Hilti originated them. Remove the nut and replace it with a long sleeve nut. Add threaded rod to the top of your newel. Add washer and nut. Tighten. Add newel cap. Repeat.
Easy, reversible, removable. No epoxy gunk. No drilling dovetail holes in concrete. One trip to the job does it. (Bring extra bolts.)
Ron
Ron, we have actually done and still do at times just what you are describing but when you say:
...you're skipping over and trivializing just how difficult and/or expensive it is to drill 36"± hole straight and true all the way trough a newel. While your saying "No drilling dovetail holes in concrete" that's just a 3" hole and you move the drill around a bit. It takes maybe 30 seconds (just drilled one the other day). Drilling a hole 36" though a newel takes minutes not seconds. And that's a pretty expensive bit and keeping it running true ain't easy. Plus if you want to do that type of installation with just the balusters at less than half the diameter of a newel just how would you go about drilling that hole? And what if a newel cap is not part of the design?
I also find plumbing up a set-up like that isn't always so easy to get dead nuts perfect if the base being attached too has any variation to it as some concrete slabs often do. With the epoxy method you have plenty of flexibility to plumb the post into position and then you just brace it plump until the epoxy (or hydraulic cement) sets.
On many of the balustrades we do we use threaded inserts on our treads and threaded dowels in our balusters (so that we can break down the assembly then ship it to be installed later) and they are never perfectly self-plumbing and only go to perfect plumb when you coax and position them as the rail is attached and the assembly is designed to hold them in place by newels that have been properly plumbed so even if you don't drill a hole all the way through the newel for the threaded rod to pass through and use the threaded dowel partially inserted into the just the bottom of the newel I just don't understand how it will be able to perfectly plumb itself up as you screw it down. And if you have a square base on the newel then you may end up having to back it of a partial turn to get it to line up, making it too loose, or turn it even further over-tighening it if that is even possible.
I'm not saying it's a bad method because hell, we use it at times but it is certainly not an all encompassing solution.
By "epoxy gunk" what are your referring to? The Simpson stuff come in a preloaded syringe that has a self mixing tip so there is certainly no mess there and a mixing any kind of epoxy its really not to hard to avoid a mess with a little common sense and care.
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Jerrald,
You're right. I was minimizing the hassles. It is harder than that.
When using a newel with a core and a finish shroud, I wouldn't drill the core, I'd groove it with a saw and glue and screw in a filler after installing the threaded rod. Or even assemble the core around the threaded rod. And the groove or central cavity should be a good size to allow you to move the core a bit to get it right on the mark. Drilling in concrete does tend to wander some. The finished shroud should have adjustment space in it too. It will all make the fine tuning easier.
Ron
It is still a techniques any stair or rail installer or any carpenter for that matter should keep in mind though because you never know just when it or at least elements of the technique would work in that or different solutions. The key is to build up a big bag of tricks so I think its still a very good thing you brought it up.
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Jerrald
One thing I have learned over the years is that if you take the number of good carpenters on a job site then there's that number of good solutions to any odd problems that crop up plus the one you all invent together. I have never yet seen the house building problem that had only one right solution.
Big bag of tricks. Right on. That's part of the reason I come here.
Ron
I thought I'd let everyone know what I ultimately ended up with since I've had so many great suggestions.
I'm using a combination on two suggestions: the fiber rail posts and the Lag bolt/epoxy method. Here's why and how:
The design has 4 legs along the stretch - I'm making square legs by mitering at 45 degrees 4 - 3/4" pieces of walnut which I would core with poplar. Because the inside could be hollow, it's a perfect option for the fiberrail post which I will modify by cutting off the top flange. The post is 2" square so I will adjust my mitered pieces so the resulting open core accommodates the pipe nicely. I will do this on the outside posts since these will be the ones that get the most weight placed on them by those needing a handrail.
The interior post will need minimal weight bearing so I'm going to use the lag bolt in the bottom and epoxied into the cement option. I will core these legs making them solid. I'm mostly using the fiberrail system for it's solid structure - I was a bit concerned with the lag bolt version especially since it would be very hard to reverse if it didn't work well. I picked this because it seems quick and pretty easy.
So why not the fiberrail on all of them? They are very expensive! - $40 each!
I liked the threaded rod version but was concerned with drilling this long (as someone mentioned) and it seemed to have quite a bit more onsite installation time which i want to minimize.
Thanks to everyone for your input and suggestions. Wish me luck!