Fellas,
I’ve got a 45 year old home with oak floors and 2×10 joists (obviously not engineered). The wife is not liking the sound of the china cabinet when people walk by it. I have easy access to the floor joists from the basement. What is the best technique for resolving this bouncy problem?
Thanks,
John (PA)
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Replies
John, post this in the construction techniques section, you'll get more action.
Maybe you could say more about the spans, fastenings, subfloor, supporting beams, etc.
IOW, is the oak directly on the joists?
how long are the joists?
What layout are they installed to?
Are they sitting on the foundation as a platform or hung from a ledger?
Even though you can get in to the underside easily, can a a beam get in there?
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Here are some more details about the subflooring....
Picture the home floor plan as a rectangle, with the steel I-beam cutting lengthwize down the middle below the first floor. The span of the 2x10 is 14 feet and 16" on center. One end resting on the I-beam and another on the exterior wall which is cinderblock. The subfloor is plywood fastened with nails. Hard to say how thick. In another section of the house we confirmed it to be 1 inch. The 3/4 " oak is toe-nailed in traditional fasion.
Understanding sister joists may be ideal, would it help to wedge in 2x8's between the joists?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
John-
That span for 2x10's @ 16" o.c. isn't really excessive. Something no one has mentioned is that the center support beam may be what's oversized. Even if you triple each of the joists, the floor will still bounce if that steel beam is deflecting too much.
Before you go crazy sistering, nailing, gluing, and screwing, buy a screw jack post for $15 and split the span of the steel beam with it. See if that makes a difference. If not, try placing it under the joists at midspan and see what happens. At least that'll confirm whether it's the joists or the beam that's creating the bounce.
Bob
Your remark of "the center beam may be oversized" don't make any sense.
If the beam was oversized it would have very little or no deflection.
IF, the beam was UNDERSIZED, then yes, deflection can occur.
You're right- that's what i get for erplying so early in the morning....lol. Undersized was the correct word.
Bob
The only certain solution I know of is to add a beam at mid span of the 2X10s. But that kinda messes up your basement.
Sistering the joists, adding plywood, strapping, and all sorts of other suggstions have been made over the years on this board. (This question comes up frequently) But they're all mostly guesswork, IMHO. They may or may not help.
If you do end up sistering the joists, you're better off sistering with 2X12s. The 2X10s are already maxed out. Ading more joists that are maxed out isn't likely to help much. The added depth WILL help.
I did a thread on Floor Vibration
a while back which should help explain what's going on with your floor.
You can’t be late until you show up.
>>>>If you do end up sistering the joists, you're better off sistering with 2X12s. The 2X10s are already maxed out. Ading more joists that are maxed out isn't likely to help much.Perhaps you might want to reconsider that analysis and conclusion, BH.First, you're swimming against generations of practical experience, and second, if you double the width of a joit, you do gain stiffness - each joist will be carrying 1/2 the load at thet location.God never gives us small ideas.
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
"First, you're swimming against generations of practical experience..."
I'm not swimming against the grain of *MY* practical experience.
"...if you double the width of a joit, you do gain stiffness - each joist will be carrying 1/2 the load at thet location."
You gain VERY LITTLE stiffness by doubling something that's at or near the max end of it's span capability. You gain a LOT by increasing the depth.
How much load a member is carrying has nothing to do with how much it vibrates. And vibration is the problem here, not strength.
Try reading the floor vibration thread, and it might make more sense to you.
Al Gore is the kind of fellow who follows you into a revolving door and comes out in front -- while picking your pockets in the process. [Tony Blankley]
>>You gain VERY LITTLE stiffness by doubling something that's at or near the maxBut the point is, as I understand it, is that when you put in the second, sisterd joist, you are no longer near or at max.And yes, an increase in depth gets you more than an increase in width per inch, but that's not really an option in retro situations
I suspect you are looking at the problem from a design point of view, where, as you approach the limits, an increase in depth is almost(?)always better than an increase in width. Retro work has different criteria.
God never gives us small ideas.
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Edited 10/22/2004 10:58 am ET by Bob Walker
"...as I understand it, is that when you put in the second, sisterd joist, you are no longer near or at max."
You're still at the max recommended length/depth ratio. (At least according to my standards)
"an increase in depth gets you more than an increase in width per inch, but that's not really an option in retro situations"
Why not? Sistering 2X12s instead of 2X10s would be only slightly more difficult.
"I suspect you are looking at the problem from a design point of view...Retro work has different criteria."
This is a design problem, isn't it? Doesn't matter if it's new or old work - The same principals apply.
Without geometry, life is pointless.
if he sisters 2x12 on old construction, they'll have to be notched to fit at the bearing points to a 2x10 height granted, the extra height over the bulk of the length may help fight deflection, but you lose a lot when notching
i like to sister w same size joist, apply pl400 and fasteners to length, then shoot 1x3 strapping w ringshank nails 16"o.c. across the bottoms of the joists someone else posted the 1x3 trick; it creates structural boxes out of the floor system and stops vertical and horizontal movement of joists on their bottom edges not related to this post, but if 1x3 is run acxross the ceilings during framing, movement is stopped; lot of noise is eliminated as well as sheetrock fastener "pops" on ceilings
first places for him to check is the screw jack under the beam/ mid span under joists; then the rot/ "critter" check they could be in the joists or even the plywood causing weakness
"...granted, the extra height over the bulk of the length may help fight deflection, but you lose a lot when notching."
I don't think you'd lose anything. If the sistered 2X12 was fastened to the existing joist, I think the fasteners and glue would transfer the forces through to the bearing sufficiently.
You're not trying to replace the existing joist, just reinforce it.
Yes this is my truck. No I won’t help you move.
still easier, just as effective to use the 2x10 save the grief of notching, no conflict w notches @ sill, beam easier to deal w existing plumbing/utilities w same height joists if the span is marginal w 2x10's, it will be superior w the 4x10's being created by sistering if "boxed" w the 1x3 strapping it's bulletproof
do you have a truck? will you help me move?
"...just as effective to use the 2x10..."
That's total B.S. The added depth will make a lot of difference.
"...if "boxed" w the 1x3 strapping it's bulletproof..."
That's purely speculation. I seriously doubt it would make any difference at all. Sounds more like snake oil.
Never kick a cow chip on a hot day.
agree that another beam under the 2X10 system is an easy effective way to stiffen the system - if that is unreasonable for whatever reason then...
..I agree that sistering 2X12 is clearly a superior solution than doubling a 2X10 system (assuming it is physically practical) - I question if they would have to be notched and fitted at all - just cut them to a length that can be raised and sistered between the bearing points - glue and screw - I don't think there is any problem with the existing 2X10 at the bearing points, they can still take what is basically a compressive load..."there's enough for everyone"
A 2x4 glued screwed flat to the bottom edge of the 2x10 will make it as or more rigid than a sistered 2x12, another 2x4 right under the oack flooring will provide additional stiffness.
On brother's house where he didn't want to loose any headroom, we lag bolted a 3/16 by 2" steel strap across the bottem edge - good and stiff. (note- lags about 6 in OC near the center of the span, getting closer (2") as you get near the wall. If that seems counter intuitive, get a structures book and read up on how to engineer a "built up beam"
Junkhounds' post makes proper sense.
A 2x4 sistered on 1 side of a couple of joists will eliminate the problem. Its all you need to do.
There is no need whatso-ever to use a.... (lol) 2x10 or a ...(LOL) 2x12.
Do you think adding 2x4s to the bottom of I joists would stiffen them?
Yes.
depending on configuration of original joist, 3X to 6X as stiff. What you gotta watch for is dont just nail it on, it needs to be glued, especially at the support ends (lateral shear)
Thanks, I'll give that a try. I called the I-joist manufaturer and they suggested running 2x4s perpendicular to the joist every 4'. I tried that and it made no noticeable difference.
b.s.? the guy currently has 2x10's on a 14' span sistering creates 4x10's for that 14' span that's superior to what's required by any table substitution of a 2x12 which has to be notched isn't going to do anything special, but could make for problems w existing utilities difference between theory and practical experience
"That's purely speculation. I seriously doubt it would make any difference at all. Sounds more like snake oil."
good to see you're open to new ideas as long as they're your own should help you go far... ever hear of bridging? strapping supersedes it worked on a shoreline house where the engineer specified strapping on all ceilings explained that it transferred weight across the joists unlike standard bridging which allows localized movement, it locks bottom of the deck creating a boxed structure that won't deflect like one secured by sheetrock; no fastener "pops" on ceiling, less noise and movement
that's why diagonal bracing is run across the bottom of an exterior pt deck, or let-in bracing is used on exterior walls it's not snake oil; it works
Don't kick cow chips on cold days either, dummy.
The theory I referenced in the floor vibration thread is fairly new technology. Maybe if you'd reign in your smart-a$$ed attitude you'd realize that your opinion isn't always right. Strapping isn't a substitution for bridging. They act differently and do different things, regardless of what some engineer told you.
If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic.
Do you have any software to run some numbers on the different scenarios, or is yours all truss related?God never gives us small ideas.
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
"regardless of what some engineer told you"
Liked that phrase as I spent this week 'refereeing' a couple of engineers with disagreements on whether alkaline fuel cells exhibit capacitance and how much.
Anyway, tell your distractors that a beam is just a truss with lots of webs.
e.g. for those other than Ron, the 2x12 is 1.4 times the strength (actually 1.205 due to real after milling dimensions) of a 2x10 but is twice as stiff (1.5 X for 11.2" '2x12'). 4th power and all that.
sorry, you didn't receive the smart-a$$ed attitude... read your post
"strapping isn't a substitution for bridging. they act differently and do different things, regardless of what some engineer told you."
now you know all about strapping, but in your post it was "snake oil"
better read that post again, i never said it was a substitution for bridging just so you don't lose sleep, the framing on that house incorporated bridging as well; it was required may not do much, but it was there
again, if he doubles the 2x10's, and that means load-bearing, not hanging them on the old work as stiffeners, and straps the bottom of the joists, the floor will be tight ...that's good work, and that orta stop floor vibration but as others posted, he has to start w a critter/rot inspection, and temporary jacks under beam and mid-span on joists to trouble shoot it that's the difference w theory and practical experience
When they were passing out brains, you must have thought they said pain, so you asked for a little one.
Edited 11/2/2004 12:01 pm ET by ed2
Is this a political post, and I missed it?
SamT
I think I've backed my point up well enough that there's no point argueing it any farther.There are no stupid questions but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots
Hey Boss,
FWIW, I'm with you here. I'd take your word on the engineering almost unquestioned.......pal!
Anywho.......I just popped in on this thread and read it through from thr beginnng........was waiting for the felt pads, jees, does the stuff HAVE to be touching inside the cabinet?? Someone else suggested a rocking or out of level cabinet.......good!
Bridging was mentioned, I'm not sure the owner verified it's existence.
Perhaps a coupla of rows of solid blocking??
HO says the floor is bouncy. Is it?? We know that the China rattles. How much do these people weigh and are they (EEECCCHHHH) HEEL WALKERS?? Yes the dreaded heel walkers.........you know who they are, just like an angry wife pouting off across the room, boom, boom, boom.........
The bounce or deflection has not been verified and everyones speculating solutions. The floor system is not under engineered, if it was put together correctly and includes proper brigding or blocking.
Why reinvent the wheel?
Is there a device to measure this deflection?
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
"I'd take your word on the engineering almost unquestioned...."
Thanks - I appreciate the kind words. But you still can't have my beer. (-:
"Perhaps a coupla of rows of solid blocking??"
I tend to shy away from bridging and blocking. It may or may not help, and both can cause problems with squeaks.
"HO says the floor is bouncy. Is it??"
That's one of the problems with floor vibration - It's pretty subjective. Trying to tell a HO that his floor isn't bouncy is like telling a woman that her butt isn't too big. If they THINK it's bouncy, it *IS* bouncy.
"The floor system is not under engineered..."
Not really. But it's maxed out in the length/depth ratio that I generally use. I like to see a floor at no more than 18 to one - Where the span is no more than 18 times the depth. In the case of a 2X10, that 13' 10 1/2".
"Is there a device to measure this deflection?"
Do you mean measuring deflection, or measuring vibration? Deflection could be measured with a string line.
As I understand it, you use an accelerometer to measure floor vibration in cycles per second. But I've never seen one, and don't really know anything about them.When a crime is committed, liberals blame society. Conservatives blame the criminal. [Debra Saunders]
An interesting article suggesting it is a far more complex issue than either of us have been aware:
http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ctus/ctu22e.pdfThe key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
The article you mentioned doesn't have anything new in it. And it doesn't really give any specific guidelines to follow. (Although I just read it over quickly, since I gotta get going shortly)
The original research that started me thinking about this stuff was done at the university of Virginia. (I think) But I haven't been able to find the article published anywhere on the internet.
You asked in an earlier thread if I had any specific software for this. The only thing I have is 2 spreadsheets I wrote - One for floor trusses, and one for I-joists. I can post 'em here if anyone is interested.A gossip is someone with a great sense of rumor.
BH: I put floor trusses in my house - 24 ft clear span over LR below bedroom. They are supported from their top chord, rather than the bottom. My truss designer gave me an article on limiting floor vibration that said to run a 2X6 the length of the room perpendicular to the bottom chord. Implication was that if I didn't, I'd be driven nuts by apparently bouncy second floor and noise on ground floor. I fought my framing carp tooth & toenail over this, having to finally tell him that I was supplying the money, to just shuttheheckup, quitcherbitchin' and do it! After putting it in language he understood, I got my 2X6. Bottom line - it works! (Note I don't say "Worked," I don't know what would have happened w/o it.) Caused me no end of nightmares shoehorning in HVAC, electrical & water, but I stood fast against all the other trades on the sanctity of that 2X6. Told the HVAC guys that before they cut any structural member, they better get my permission, or their company would be fired ON THE SPOT. Man, did that cause griefand a lot of questions. Had zero problems w/ plumber or electrician - they were me.
There is not really a big difference between bouncy floor & vibration - just the frequency of the vibration. What is bounce, other than low frequency vibration? What is deflection other than vibration at "0" hertz? (Deflection is static, and vibration is dynamic. We have always tended to separate the two, in teaching and in practice. Forgetting that static is just an extreme of dynamic.) Sticking that 2X6 in jacked up the natural frequency of the floor, meaning that it removed the most annoying and sensible components of vibration - the bouncy floor freq, sensed by our inner ear accelerometer. You cannot ever totally remove vibration - it will still be there, but as you stiffen the system, you increase the natural frequency, making it less noticeable - unless you have a china cabinet that amplifies the vibration coupled to it and acts as a transducer to produce audio for the ear to sense.
Now, all that crap being said, how does a perpendicular support strengthen a floor & reduce low frequency vibration? By taking out the principal mode of failure of a beam. Watch how floor joists fail in practice, not in the lab - it is not through the bottom chord (read that fibers) failing in tension - it is through distortion of the joist and twisting so the beam (joist) is out of plane, decreasing its sectional whatever and failing. Nail & glue a good, stiff subfloor to it, and you strengthen it laterally - the top chord cannot bend out of plane. Add a transverse strengthening element (Like strapping, or my 2X6) and you further strengthen its bottom chord's resistance to twisting - gee, sounds like someone else's box beam. Interestingly, strapping is merely a distributed 2X6, and a subfloor is a bunch of strapping w/ small holes. The 2X6 works because it is placed at the location of max deflection of the beam/chord out of plane - thre center of simple beams. The strapping/subfloor contributes least strength at the ends of the beam/truss where it is supported. All this goes back to the static deflection - a beam is theoretically in pure shear at the supports & in pure bending moment at center. The sistered 2X12 can be notched very easily - doesn't even have to be setting on the sill - the 2X10 is strong enough in shear to handle all that. Just glue & screw it to the existing 2X10 to give stiffness in the center. Note I said stiffness, not strength. We need to increase natural frequency, not strength, and stiffness does that. A sistered 2X10 would do that also, but there is more bang for the buck in using the 2X12 in terms of stiffness. Though if you sistered enough 2X10's you would approach the poured concrete floor for natural frequency.
Going back to some classes in EE on system response - what is the reaction of a system to impulse input? Doesn't matter whether it is electrical or mechanical - all obey the same equations of motion. An impulse is nothing more than an input of ALL frequencies, whether it be a woman stomping away in spike heels while angered at her spouse, or a lightning bolt. So - you walk past the front of a china cabinet, it puts energy into the floor and things vibrate. All you can do as a designer is increase the natural frequency of the floor so most all the energy damps out quickly. That is what your perpendicular bracing does. Heuristically reasoning to the extreme (I always loved that expression in school), the best solution is a solid, poured concrete floor - has the highest natural frequency. But - impractical. That's why we have trusses & joists.
Again, all that cerebral crap being said - I like your suggestions for structural corrections as to solution. It increases the natural frequency the most (even using a sistered 2X12), But - let's first use the Navy's solution to quieting submarines - uncouple the source from the sensible part of the problem - stick some rubber, felt, or otherwise viscoelastic substances between the cabinet & the floor to dampen out energy coupled to the cabinet. That will tell us quickly if it is a bouncy floor or higher frequency vibration problem. This also looks at the easiest and cheapest solution first. I believe that's called "Occam's Razor," or some sort of foreign language gibberish.
Whew! Bottom line, Boss, I'm with you. Just don't ask me the time - you might not like my answer.
Don - first an engineer, then a glass etcher (though not necessarily a good one of either)
The GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Nice post Don.
There have been quite a few threads on this subject in the past. I think Boss has gone down almost all of the roads you just layed out for us, at one time or another, though perhaps not as eloquently.
In regards to the 2x5; could you have put it 'inside' the trusses,ie, above the bottom chord or is that what you did. I am assuming that, because you did not mention firring down the rest of the ceiling, unless this was in the basement.
I hate those tinkly China Cabinets. I haven't been in one house yey where they don't vibrate! I think you used the term diaphram in reference to the cabinet. That's what I was thinking this morning, they are like a speaker amplifying the vibrations.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Pheonix: Yup - that's exactly where the 2X6 went. Along the top of the bottom chord, inside the truss. A living female canine to get in place & nail. After it was over I knew why my trim carp was bellyachin' so much!
My living room is under the trusses, as is my kitchen, but the latter room required a beam running perpendicular to the trusses for support in center of open space, so they were only half as long. Still got a 2X6 through their vampire hearts, resulting in much more cussing by carp and HVAC guys.
Diaphragm - transducer - whatever. Think I also through in viscoelastic - you know, real engineer talk when they want to snow you!
Thanks for the kind words.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!</FONT
"What is deflection other than vibration at "0" hertz?"
Deflection is based on theoritical design loads that may or may not be fully applied. Vibration is the frquency in cycles per second that floors vibrate at. Big difference.
The 2X6s you mentioned are called "strongbacks". They're recomended at 8 to 10' centers on ALL wood floor truss jobs. And always have been since I've been in the business.
They connect adjacent trusses together to some degree, so vibration is spread out over more than one truss.
They work great if they're not butchered up. But they're not enough to stiffen up a bad floor.Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted;Persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot. [Mark Twain]
Boss: we are talking two slightly different things, inadvertantly. You mean "Maximum" deflection when talking about design criteria. I talked about deflection as being displacement under zero hertz frequency. (I used hertz here as a throwback to my EE background. Used to be cycles per second, and probably still is for mechanical/civil types.) The equations that describe the dynamic conditions and reactions of the system should, as a limit, when frequency approaches zero, describe your deflection. If it doesn't, we have problems w/ the assumptions going into the mathematical description of the system. Sorta like the equations for an AC excitement of an electrical system should describe its response to DC as a limit. If written correctly, they do.
My truss designer was quite conservative, and gave me a pretty stiff floor. We discussed the whole thing as an integrated system - trusses, subfloor, fastening techiniques, ceiling below. Talked like the strongbacks were reasonably recent - this was in 1998 - and handed me a tech report to read about it. After reading the report, I decided they were absolutely necessary for a decent floor/ceiling. Also had one heckof an argument/discussion w/ carp about where joint in subfloor would go. He didn't want to make any more 8 ft rip cuts than necessary. I wanted continuity of the Advantech across the max stress point in the floor system. He wanted a joint running along one of them. He wanted to stop w/ a few nails to hold the subfloor while the glue cured - I wanted to add the screws, IAW the guidance of my designer. We compromised. I reminded him who provided the money, he shuttheheckup and I ran the screws in every 8" or so. Trust me, we had fun together in the hot July Georgia Sun.
My truss designer also suggested hurricane clips to reinforce the truss-sill connection. Since I was working for a dime an hour, I took the time to put them at every truss. Figgered that the cheap cost of the clips and the extremely cheap cost of labor would more than pay off in the event of a bad thunderstorm w/ 80 plus mph winds.
Don
The GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
I've been in the truss business sinece 1984, and strongbacks were recommended back then. So they're not at all new.
The only fairly new thing in floor design is the concept of vibration. That was pretty new back in 1998.The difference between Rush Limbaugh and The Hindenburg is that one is a flaming Naz! gasbag, and one was a dirigible. [Doonesbury]
I've tried several suggestions for stiffening a bouncy floor without success. I finally decided to add a beam at midspan with a LVL with a post in the center. I was advised not to do this because without a footing my concrete basement floor would not support the load. Would building a typical 2x4 wall at midspan eliminate this problem? What do you think?
Technically, if you add a beam and post you need footers. But I didn't do that in my last house when I added a beam.
I figured the structure was there already to support the design loads, and I was just adding something to take out the bounce.
A frame wall would certainly distribute the load over more area. But technically, you'd need a thickened slab under it if it became a "bearing" wall.
If you have to pull permits and get the work inspected, they'll probably force you to add some footings of some sort. If not, I wouldn't worry about it. As long as you don't try to jack up the whole house with it, your worst case scenario is some cracked concrete.The mind is never blank. If it were, how would you know?
FWIW, I often see beams added without footers under the supporting columns, where the columns sit on the concrete floor, and it is rare for there to be any sign of overloading of the floor
The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
This is one thread that could put a pet rock to sleep.
The world famous bouncy floor syndrome.
You have to appreciate first and foremost that even a concrete and steel floor vibrates so it's quiet acceptable for a wood floor to do the same.
The 2 x 10s in question may be maxed out at 14 ft. but within industry standards.
Some suggested nailing strapping on the underside of the joists at various spacings but that will work loose in no time because you are too dependent on the shear holding capacity of the nails.
Some suggested sistering a whole mess of recommended woods of various sizes or adding a 2nd or even 3rd joist between the existing. Will help but not cost effective is the kindest thing I can say regarding wasting money.
One suggested adding a 1/2 ply underneath with glue and screws. On the overall span loading this would be and effective waffer construction but by itself be incomplete.
By allowing the wood joists to twist or torque we weaken the assembly and greatly reduce the loading capacity of the floor.
The first step is to remove as much of the load on the floor as possible. (Remove all furniture)
Next divide the joist lenght in 4 even sections and chalk line the spacing. This will give you 3 runs of solid blocking. It is ABSOLUTELY imperative that the blocking be continuous. If you have a duct or pipe crossing a line of blocking, you have to insert a 2 x 4 on the flat, top and bottom.
The blocking 2 x 10s must be KD and it would even be advisable to dry them further near your furnace to remove as much as the moisture as you can. More floors squeak because of shrinkage than anything else that I know of.
The blocking must be inserted damned tight, the tighter the better.
Where your joists are nailed to the exterior rim joist should be blocked as well. There I would add a 1" styrofoam for another good reason first and then add the blocking over it.
Where your joist cross or hopefully butt against the joists on the other side of your beam, you have to tie them in as well. If you can make the two opposing joists one by joining them with a plywood scab glued and screwed you will greatly improve the flooring system of your home.
You have to picture a joists as it works in your home's floor.
If you take a yardstick and lay it on edge between two flat supports so that only about an inch is bearing on the supports you will have a basic joist.
If you try to put pressure on the middle, the stick will try to twist out of you hand to allow bending, as it bends it also shortens at the bearing points.
Those are the two most important aspects of wood that you have to try to control in order to minimize flexing that allows sqeaks.
Gabe
Boss,
Since your are in the engineering end of this mess (fun aint it?)
I was told by one of my engineering profs (1983 or 84) that ther have been no actual tests or studies that have proven that bridging adds any strength to a floor.
OTOH common engineering sense would say that if you add more PROPERLY FASTENED/engineered material it will add to the strength of the system.
If you could measure accurate enough, even drywall will add strength to a floor system, It may be minimal, and it may be way less than the added dead load but none the less it is there.
You ever heard any thing like this?
If you want to call me names and start a flame war....
BRING IT ON!!!
:)
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
"I was told by one of my engineering profs (1983 or 84) that ther have been no actual tests or studies that have proven that bridging adds any strength to a floor."
Bridging was never intended to increase the STRENGTH of a floor system. It was designed to increase the STIFFNESS.
I've never actually seen any studies regarding bridging and what it does. I have no idea if any exist.
"..common engineering sense would say that if you add more PROPERLY FASTENED/engineered material it will add to the strength of the system."
I wouldn't say it will always increase the STRENGTH of a system. But it will always change the dynamics of a system in some way.
"If you want to call me names and start a flame war...."
Naw - There's enough of that going around already. (-:Help starve a feeding bureaucrat.
Tech NotesWood-frame floorsVibration control key for performance
VibrationVibration performance is one of the most complicated serviceability criterion for wood-frame floors. Often felt as bounciness, vibration is affected by construction quality and subjective opinions on acceptability.Lateral bracing, such as strapping, bridging and blocking, dampens vibration by providing transverse floor stiffness. Many I-joist manufacturers recommend specific methods of cross-bracing in their literature, rather than conventional cross bridging that may not be installed properly in the field. Gluing increases floor stiffness further by creating composite action at the intersection of subfloor and joists.
Squeeking
Blocking and diagonal bridging is normally installed before the subfloor. When blocking or bridging is installed, it is initially nailed only at the top. After the structure is enclosed and rough-finished, the bottom of the blocking and bridging should be securely nailed. Occasionally, however, the bottom nailing is not completed. As a result, the blocking and bridging, rather than transferring load to the adjacent joist, tend to rotate or slide. The rubbing on the joist results in a floor squeak.
Squeaks can also occur when adjacent pairs of diagonal bridging members come into contact where they cross. Joist deflections can cause the bridging members to rub each other, resulting in squeaks.
"Bridging was never intended to increase the STRENGTH of a floor system. It was designed to increase the stiffness."
actually, bridging was designed to transfer load(s).
Help starve a feeding bureaucrat. Vote Bush out.
Edited 11/2/2004 11:54 am ET by ed2
That thread of vibration reminds me of something I noticed many years ago.
I used to live in a house that had 2x8 joists. Anyways, they has a little spring to them, but when the dog walked, they had A LOT of spring to them. The dog weighed about 50 pounds less than any human. I attributed it to the cadence....
Boss, can you comment on that possibility?
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
"...but when the dog walked, they had A LOT of spring to them."
I've never heard of a situation where different people/animals caused different frequencies of vibration. But I guess it makes a certain amount of sense.
A dog walks differently than a human, so the frequency of the vibration it sets up in the floor is different. And if that frequency is similar to the natural frequency the floor resonates at, it could do what you said.Never slap a man who's chewing tobacco.
About the dog - I read an article once that spoke to viobration in one instance where a floor tolerated regular loading just fine - hundreds of people, but when they had a saturday night dance, things got out of hand. all those people stepping in time with music would get quite a trampoline effect going. Can't remember the solution used.
but a dog does a sort of swing trot that places all his weight at one time on two feet, so I can imagine if that were in synch with the frequency most apt to influence the floor system, it would tend to amplify vibrations.
Anyone who has ever been on a trampoline can understand the basics here. There is a way you can take the bounce right away from a partner or you can add to their bounce, by the way you work with what is going on.
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the military marches it's people across bridges in route step...
in cadence they'd destroy the best of bridges...
Resonence
(thanks Junkhound... CRS had a firm grip)
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Edited 10/28/2004 1:33 am ET by IMERC
the military marches it's people across bridges in route step...
in cadence they'd destroy the best of bridges...
Yep, even the Romans knew that. It was about the only thing usefull I got out of Latin HS classes, had to read Caesar's commentaries in Latin and recall that was the first time I'd realized how old of knowledge resonance was - Tacoma Narrows bridge people forgot that one..
Late to this discussion, but your post reminded me of something my dad once told me, that I still remember for some reason. He was in the army corp of engineers, and was trained that troops should never march over a bridge for fear that the cadence would weaken the structure and lead to collapse. Maybe that's still the case, and soldiers "end cadence" before crossing a bridge.
Ah, finally read thru this whole thread, and IMERC beat me to it :)
Edited 11/3/2004 2:52 pm ET by RickD
Well, John, Do you feel like you've really stepped in it after reading all this through?
Since your floor is not in structural failure, but only has a vibration problem, all this discussion goes back and forth in part because the real solution is in finding the "best" and least expensive method to solve the probelm. Anyone can over-engineer a best solutiomn with regards to the loads and vibration, but that may not be practical from the viewpoint of your pocket book.
I believe that almost any one of the several solutuons offered would do the job. Some come from a numbers cruncher view and some from a nails and sawdust view. Boss is right and his solutuon will work, but so will others. ( Boss, I love ya, but you are blinding yourself to other possibilities here. Is it that time of the month for you? ;<) ? I remember in a sinilar thread a year ago, I offered you about helf a dozen links to engineering studies showing that the prependicular strapping was the preferred and recommended solution for I-joists. You pooh-poohed tyhose and said you would read them later, if I remember right. You still continue to deny that any other solutuion will work. Yours is goodf and ED2 has a good one too.)
Anyway, John - You did not mention whether hour floor has blocking between the joists. The minimum span with no blocking should be eight feet for any joists. That means that your joists should have blocking at midspan. that is the old standard.
The reason for this is that design loads are calculated with the joist standing vertically. In practice, what happens is that as loads are applied, the joist tends to roll one way or another, allowing greater than designed deflection to occour. prevent that roll over and you do considerably much to precent deflection. A floor with less deflection has less vibration.
Blocking placed tight between joists will hold them from rolling by letting them all function as one with load sharing capacity. Another methiod for accomplishing the same thing is to apply strapping perpendicular to the joists on the bottomface at 16" OC . This not only prevents roll of the joists, but it creats a box diaphragm that transfers vibrations to the perimeter loading points.
A couple guys mentioned adding a 2x4 along the bottom of the joists with glue and screws. What this does is to turn the 2x10 into an I-joist top a modest degree. I have not done this, but have seen it in two other homes where it was recommended by an engineer to solve similar problems. In both cases, the homeowners report that it worked to suit them.
So, I'll let you decide for yourself which method to use (after trying the felt cushioning) based on cost, your skills, and access to the area. My own thoughts lean to adding a sistered 2x10 on every other joist, and then applying strapping @ 16" OC to the bottoms of the joists. I think this will more than solve the problem at modest cost.
whatever you, when sistering, be sure to use plenty of PL Premium or you could find that you have added sqeaks to the system.
Not that you haven't heard plenty of sqeaking and sqeeling in this thread already, LOL
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"I remember in a sinilar thread a year ago, I offered you about helf a dozen links to engineering studies showing that the prependicular strapping was the preferred and recommended solution for I-joists. You pooh-poohed those and said you would read them later, if I remember right. You still continue to deny that any other solutuion will work."
I'd have to say all of the above is (mostly) wrong, IMHO.
I do recall reading the links you provided. My take on them was that they said all their suggestions MIGHT work. They never said any one thing was the "preferred and recommended solution".
And that's my problem with these proposed "solutions". There isn't really any real sciense behind this - It's mostly guesswork.
For instance - Did you read post 49102.51 by BigBlock? He added 2x4s perpendicular to his I-joists, and he said that ..."it made no noticeable difference."
So why didn't it? It may work fine in some cases, and not work at all in others. Until someone actually does some research into why one fix works one time and others work other times I'll continue to be skeptical.
I've heard all sorts of suggestions - 1X3 strapping, 2X4 strapping, 2X4s added on the bottom, plywood skin, plywood scabs, etc. While all of those may work SOME of the time, there's no way of knowing which one will work in any given situation.
The suggestions I gave are ones I'm CERTAIN will work. I take floor design seriously, and don't like guesswork.I'm currently fasting to protest hunger strikes.
I did notice that.
Placing them at 4' OC is a whole lot different than at 16" OC. You have three times the shear strength in strapping than in occasional 2x4s.
I'm sorry if I didn;'t catch your reply to a previous thread, but one of those links diod include a report charting of the percent by which strapping under will decrease the deflection of a floor system.
And there are numberous reports here from the field, myself included, of how it does indeed work in practice.
And if you are really interested, you can prove it to yourself by calculating the shear strength of those hundreds of nails vs the comprssive resistance in the joists used in blocking as Gagbe explained, vs the bending resistance provided by your solution of aDDING 2X12s.
Any of them will work. What you are doing by claimiong that your wauy is the only way is like saying that because you drive a ford to work, niobody else can possibly get to work if they drive a chevy. Or that because you prefer asphalt shingles, everybody should use asphalt shingles and that nothing else will keep you dry. It's not a very good way to learn anything. There are always other solutions to the same problem.
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So are you saying that continuous 1x3 strapping 16" OC would be more effective than 2x4 4' OC? The I Beam manufaturer that I talked to cautioned me against doing things such as boxing the I Beams because it would void the warranty. He contends that the most effective solution would be a mid span beam or sheet rocking, in effect putting in a ceiling. He also explained that my I joist and span should result in almost 0 deflection but in the "feel" category the floor would be unacceptable.
Absolutely! The goal is to stop the joists from rolling.
Blocking can do that
strapping can too.
the blocking works by placing an object ( the 14.5" 2x10 bliock) in the position the joist want to occupy. Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time so the joist doesn't roll and deflection is lessened.
The strapping resists that rolling too, but in a different way. The nails holding it up resist joist roll by virtue of their shear strength. at that coupling. Placing those nails at 16" OC gives you three times as many as placing at 48" OC so you get three times the resistance to rolling in the joists.
comparing blocking to strapping is still different in a different way, in that blocking works by compression, while strapping works in tension. Blocking needs to be 8' or less OC while the astrapping is placed closer.
Sheet containment works too, in similar manner to strapping except that you can never get to the spaces again for any maintaninance like wiring, ducts, fixing squeaky floors, etc.
Adding a midspan beam is one I am sure we can all agree is a bulletproof cure, but the posts, footings, etc. can add to the process and cost.
I can't answer for your engineers reasoning. I only know that they can and will argue a point as much as we do here.
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>>Absolutely! The goal is to stop the joists from rolling.
How much rolling is posible after the flooring is on?
Wouldn't the effect of strapping be more a matter of reducing vibration by tying the bottoms together and thus getting the aggregate of the joists' resistence to vibration?
The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
"How much rolling is posible after the flooring is on?"
in a 14' joist, with no strapping or blocking, I have seen joists wander an inch off plumb in the center just from natural warp, grain irtregularities, etc, then when you add load, it wants to go further since it is already stressed beyoind it's design load by virtue of the fact that it is already rolling. Strapping or blocking when built prevents any of this.
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Are you talking before or after the floor is put on?
The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
after
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hope you don't mind me interrupting the Blue Gabe love fest for a minute, but I have information you might want, in the intrest Of Fine Home Building, for future reference.
I looked through my ""Basic Lumber Engineering for Builders" and found that they report in fine print somnething to this effect - " All span tables are for floor system as a whole, including joists, subfloor, and bridging or blocking"
Now, I can't gaurantee t5hat all codes span charts are created in the same way - just the ones in that one book.
but here are some otherlinks providing evidence for any one who really wants to learn to improve their standards and advance their craft. The references in these show pretty well that blocking at midspan, minimally, is a universal standard for floor frame construction and that bridging, properly installed, or strapping, is an acceptable alternative.
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OK so I'm tired tonight.
Here the links
http://www.woodmags.com/wdb/magazine_rack/2000_fall_13/tech/index.php3
http://www.woodmags.com/wdb/magazine_rack/2003_summer_24/ijoist/index.php3
http://www.woodmags.com/wdb/magazine_rack/2003_summer_24/ijoist/plans/plan2big.php3
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/articles/showarticle.asp?articleID=1807&position=0&type=article
http://www.criterium-simpson.com/project2.asp?projectid=84&ID=2
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Piffin,
No one can show me a chart which changes the span. No one can show me any technical data that supports the increase in strength.
In Michigan, the code does not require bridging on 2x10s. Evidently, they understand that the joist does not "roll" as easily as everyone wants to claim. It is required on 2x12's however.
If i was concerned about the rolling issue, I would run a continuous lacer of 2x4 on the BOTTOM of the basement joist and lock it in tightly to the concrete foundation. That would never be removed for ductwork and it would be inherrently more likely to prevent "roll".
I'm just not concerned and neither are any of the builders or inspectors. I've worked on some houses in localities where the inspectors were quite picky....and I've never been knocked down for bridging. I personally wouldn't/didn't put it in my own stuff.
If we all are truly concerned about tweaking our floor systems. why don't we just put 2/12s on 12" centers? That would be far, far better than 2x10's 16oc with some junky old #6 1x3 cross bridging that barely holds nails!
I'm willing to put the stuff in...but only upon special request.
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
Well, Blue. There is no arguement here because you are arguing in favor of doing the least you can get by with while I'm arguing in favour of doing the best job possible for the money.
Two differnt directions we're going so no way to argue how to get there. If your state lets you get away with lower standards, that's fine.
But just for sake of learning, how 'bout comparing a span chart that you have to one that specificly includes blocking to see which might show greater spans?
let's say L360 40# livwe load, 2x10 hemfir#2 @16" OC?
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Sounds good Piff...
Where can I get the span chart now?
I have never looked at one other than a cursory glance. I don't design homes, I don't draw them, I just put in what is on the plans.
Occasionally, I see some stuff that is questionable...and I mention it to the builder because I don't want to have to go back and add joists if the architect messed up. On the current job I'm on, they showed a span of 16'1. I don't know much about 2x10's, but I do know that the 16 footers that they sent would have fallen through to the lower floor if I tried to install them. That's how I compute things. So, I had the Builder check on them and eventually we added a triple beam and cut the span down to 12 or so...
I think 15' 5" is max. I really don't know...thats not my department.
When I used to do small additions, I'd just use 2x12. It was always way stronger than they needed but everyone would love it!
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
I've got a 16'9" on the chart WITH blocking, and a 16'5" on one not specifying it, but these are from two different sources, so you are right that I can't find a single chart showing with and without.
personally, if it is over 14', I use TJIs or 2x12s, but I always use blocking over 8'
My customers don't want to see the wine wiggle in the glass when the wait staff walk by with the platter of horse douvers, LOL
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Piff, more power to them..they can afford it and they can afford the blocking too.
I'd probbly be selling them 16" microlams at 12" oc....but I'd skip the blocking and lace up the bottoms with a grid of 2x6 lacers.
Why mess around with those flimsy tji's when the customers can afford beef!
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
Let's all find out what the authority having jurisdiction over our local building practices says about bridging / blocking. And then let's report back.
I am a structural engineer, but not in the game anymore as such. But I can recall bridging requirements and specs linked to the depth-to-width ratios of joists, and spans. The taller the joist, the more the requirement for bridging.
Blue, you've been in a Wal-Mart, or probably a Meijer's, right? Look up at the roof structure next time you're in, tell us what you see.
There's bridging up in them thar bar joists, right? Lots of it. You remember it, right? Weren't you the foreman on the raising gang?
But our houses don't need structural features that ensure integrity? OK in a Wal-Mart, but costs too much for us?
Bob, your making my point!
I'm really skeptical about 2x10s rolling, but I can fully comprehend 2x24's rolling. The commercial trusses are much higher than 9" and therefore REQUIRE bridging....2x10s do NOT!
I'm not opposed to putting more quality into a structure...but I simply don't believe that cross bridging on 2x10s does ANYTHING other than occasionally squeak. I can't speak about solid blocking...because I've never seen any in my thirty years in the trades!
Im not opposed to adding more quality...I just say..spend the money and time wisely. Instead of cross bridging, I'd add a joist everyother one, or every third, etc.
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
Note to all: this discussion shows that you've got to be careful using information from this forum. It's a powerful tool to assess opinion, and there are a lot of smart folks here, but too often opinion is stated as fact. Experience and commonsense are essential, but you must be careful not to extend these further than their limits or you can end up with the wrong answer.
From the Ontario Building Code, Table A1, maximum permitted spans for 2x10 SPF #1 And #2 Joists 16" O.C.
with strapping: 13'
with at least one row of approved bridging: 13'6"
with BOTH: 14'
Span increases of this sort are given for 2x8s and 2x12s also.
At least one code acknowledges the obvious: that bridging and strapping both contribute to the strength and stiffness of a flooring system.
It's also clear that poor installation practices which leave gaps between members, particularly gaps which can grow as wood members shrink, can lead to squeaks. It's also clear that you can eliminate bridging/strapping by using 2x12s where 2x10s with bridging would do, and this too would give you an adequate floor.
If you want some additional opinion, a stripe of PL on top of every joist before the subfloor goes on is the best anti-squeak option you can buy.
PS: it was my son, not Blue, that got to me!
Edited 10/30/2004 8:52 pm ET by moltenmetal
With that last sentence chopped off in midstream, I'm worried that old blue may have clotheslined you and stuffed your body down the stairwell fior proving him wrong on published standards. Are you OK?
LOL
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Maybe Blue framed his house, and his desk crashed through the floor.
It's also clear that poor installation practices which leave gaps between members, particularly gaps which can grow as wood members shrink, can lead to squeaks. It's also clear that
Don't mess with Blue!
SamT
LOL!
What has me more worried is not that I'm disagreeing with Blue (who I don't know all that well), it's that I'm agreeing with Gabe! The two of us don't see eye to eye in the Tavern on just about anything...! And I had to think twice about saying anything, given that Mike Smith, the god-king of framing, says he isn't using bridging either. To each his own.
Crappy workmanship gives crappy results. Bridging does provide additional stiffness and doesn't squeak if you do it right. My place will have a row of solid bridging even though the code says I don't strictly need it. I'll have enough off-cuts to do it that way, and better to use 'em as bridging than as firewood IMHO.
molten.. garsh... god -king of framing ?
heh, heh, heh.... no... i don't think so... but i do know this.. i think bridging is prone to bad installation...
now.. what you are proposing is "solid blocking".. better... but prone to bad installation also..
strapping gives almost the same transfer of forces as the blocking.. but it is almost impossible to screw up..
and.. it has other benefits that you don't get from blocking or bridging...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I knew it!
That's why the cod for breakfast tasted so gooooood! It was touched by a god-king!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
hey... you really liked the cod ?..
as for framing.. we ain't slow .. and we ain't fast.. we're half fast..
hi , carole !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I finally visited this popular thread hoping to learn something new.
Looks like a buncha guys with the "small dog complex" which never accomplishes anything but a bunch of nancy-boys in a pissing contest!
I learned nothing here.
Too many egos, yuk.
Hey guys,
This thread was closed by one of the moderators who was forced to take action against all the bickering and attacking going on.
I've asked to have it brought back to the forum so that you guys can continue to post ideas on fixing this bouncy floor because I felt there was some really interesting discussion going on and lots of different opinions.
These different opinions should not be channeled into rage and personal attacks - lets keep this clean and if you have a problem with someones post or the advice that they give therein, deal with it by disagreeing and offering your reasoning...simple as that.
make me proud boys. -Justin"If God didn't want me to wear this Led Zeppelin shirt everyday he wouldn't have made them rock out so hard"
...forced to take action
Oh Brother Fink, if you could only elaborate on that.
The body with the corkscrew looking arms did it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I think Darcy pretty much summed up the reason...
And I think Justin has pretty much said that more of the same will not be tolerated.
Best thing to do is to just leave all the bickering out from here on out. (Including bickering about Darcy and Justin. LOL)
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
Edited 11/2/2004 11:47 am ET by Luka
quit stickin' up for the lame dame. ;o)
sorry darcy. couldn't resist.
Bite me, Bagel breath.
:)
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
He's laid off the bagels...
So that doesn't apply any more...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
So you really believe Rez can lay off the bagels ?
;)
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
No
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
this is a good thread no matter what anyone says even Darcy...sissy girl
as for Boss Hog and me, we have been nominated for emmys and the movie offers are pouring in
p.s. bridging still sucks
Let's not try and boil the ocean here. If the problem is a noisy china cabinet, and placing soft mats under the legs doesn't help, then you might also try moving the cabinet a few feet left or right or to a different wall. Rarely does the entire floor move as a unit- vibrations depend on position and weight distribution.
Next best, as others have suggested if you have the space, is to build a wall midspan in the basement.
Vote early, vote often.
(If someone else in this 180-message long intestine made this identical suggestion, my apologies)
I love all the ideas on how to fix the floor, but I might have to give a nod to NJdesigners strategy of moving the cabinet before remodeling the basement - sometimes the easiest solution is also the one we overlook.
"If God didn't want me to wear this Led Zeppelin shirt everyday he wouldn't have made them rock out so hard"
"Doc it hurts when I do this."
"Well don't do that!"
Anyone else have a problem with this method?
"Mr contactor my floor bounces when I walk across it"
"Well don't walk across it"
Fink dude...
You work at Lowes on the weekends!!??
:)
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
i was in a building from the mid 1800's a few years back floor joists were all different size little trees, planed flat on the top all undersized, must have been a trillion steel screwjacks under them... building was tight but if a magnetic asteroid ever passes by, that place will be the new space station
support wall sounds better than that, i'm leaning towards felt pads under china closet
vote early vote often vote on whether Darcy is a sissy in the tavern
There are vibration dampening pads that can be hd from a machinest's supply...
Work great...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
gel soles from dr scholl
not me... the cabinet..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
How do you figure K'n A' Darcy is a sissy is beyound me and probably most of the others here....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Well heck,
eddy,
or is it ed de duex?
1. There are regional differences involved.
2. Everyone has their own way of doing their own work. Good, bad, whatever...
3. People have different teachers. Some of us have wonderful teachers, some not.
But the point is that, some newbies carps who lurk here, may be inspired to do research, and explore alternatives due to these conversations at Breaktime.
If I were one of them, looking for good information, I would certaintly get burned-out by a bunch of guys in a pissing contest.
4. I do believe the point of the Fine HomeBuilding Breaktime Forum is to provide education. And I do believe that they have "altered" the focus of the magazine to accomodate a larger subscriber base. I can't blame them...
Heck! I would have done the same! Don't any of you guys realize that your jobs are in jeporady due to all the stupid DIY shows, and all the ads from places like Homdespondent and Flowes?
Here, I believe the point that Fine HomeBuilding needs to communicate and emphasize to their new audience of DYI's is this:
"If it's over your your head. Hire a professional!!!!!"
I believe they could! and should! do more to emphisize that mentality to their new reader base.
Hey, you homeowner/lurker prople, if you actually believe in Fine HomeBuilding, hire a Professional!
Well, I gotta get on the plane to Australia to wrestle crockys now
see ya
But the point is that, some newbies carps who lurk here, may be inspired to do research, and explore alternatives due to these conversations at Breaktime.
If I were one of them, looking for good information, I would certaintly get burned-out by a bunch of guys in a pissing contest.
Darcy, if they are newbie carps, they already know all about pissing contests. If you don't believe that...go spend a few weeks on a jobsite with all the egos.
If they aren't carps, they won't understand the dynamics of the discussions anyways.
I'm not venturing into this discussion to support the need for pissing contests...I'm not pro pissing. I'm just pointing out the obvious.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
If you don't believe that...go spend a few weeks on a jobsite with all the egos.
I have. Years.
Fortunately, we spend more time getting stuff done than comparing egos.
darcy- that you drove by the house last night, left beer cans all over the lawn? it really was a good thread if you go thru the posts everything was covered along w entertainment value recent poll of newbies shows they were glued to it, and nationwide beer sales were up this week i don't think there's any shortage of work due to DIY, lot of business around as long as economy keeps moving hey- bring me some crocky skins from down under- need a new pr of boots
In the first place, if I were John (the original poster),
I'd just get rid of the china cabinet.
China cabinets are for sissys.
Or for girly men.
"China cabinets are for sissys."
...not when you store your tools in them
or surplus beer waiting to go in the 'frig
saw the picture of the "sissygirlwork" you posted that's good work the nailgun you designed is it senco or porter-cable? can't tell brand from photo you design the angled magazine gun too?
I don't get it.
Where did she ever claim to have designed the gun ???
???
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
Hmmmmm?
After a 2 month hiatus I return to the usual Pissing match with the usual humour. All is right with the world I guess ?
On a hill by the harbour
That's right. Haven't seen that 'Novy' name on here in a long time.
Welcome Back
Luka- w the pressure of the election off, we have to get together for a barbecue at the supermarket or at least cheese & crackers
i was dissin' her ...not that Darcy would ever hassle me post 196 she posts w an attachment titled "sissygirlwork" pull the picture up, shows her? w a grey nailgun
Ok, I understanbd so far.
But.... How did that turn into her designing the gun, and asking her if she designed another one ?
Just trying to follow the string here... It doesn't make any sense.
???
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
BTW:
We'd better bring our umbrellas if we are going to bbq at the supermarket.
You know how those fire sprinkler systems hate that smoke from the bbq...
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
Ah gee, I was hoping you did not notice my newest design. I am still testing it and still have to get the patent on it, but heck, I might as well share my invention since you were so clever and keen-eyed to notice it.
Model name: The Azektor
Model # RUS2PID
The Azektor is a pnuematically powered trim gun. It has the ability to not only fasten exterior trim, it fills holes and paints as it goes.
Anyway, I think it's pretty amazing. (Contact me if you are interested in pre-market specials.)
(Thanks for the sale pitch, ed's2pid, the check is in the mail...)
Edited 11/3/2004 11:36 pm ET by darcy
At the risk of being shot, don't you think "Azektor" is a bit of a, well, sissy name?
<G>
You better watch it.
She also designed one called the Dizektor.
The logo is a crossed scalpel and chainsaw.
If you want the Azektor to be a sissy gun, just hold your pinky out whilst using the gun.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
At least we have one code that offers up different span tables! Its ironic that your code allows 2x12 without bridging and ours requires it.
another mystery.....
One other thing...I'm not offering my opinion when I say bridging isn't required (in Michigan)...it's a fact!
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
after giving all proposed solutions extended consideration, I haved concieved another - simple, cheap, and using a common product that is suited for little else....
simply secure the various knic-knacs, precious moments figurines, salt cellars, and dema-tasse cups to the shelves with a thin layer of clear silicone... no more rattles - "there's enough for everyone"
How about something like Silly putty - or Beeswax?
Think about the revenues from marketing "Doud's Wax - It replaces all your I-beams"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"...you can prove it to yourself by calculating the shear strength of those hundreds of nails..."
I don't see that strapping is in shear at all. More like the nails are in withdraw as someone steps on one joist.
If the strappign only prevents "rolling" (I've also heard it called "torsional vibration") it wouldn't take much at all. I would think 1X3s 4' O.C. would do that just fine.
If you're saying that the 2X4s work kinda like strongbacks in floor trusses than the nails are in withdrawl instead of shear.
"What you are doing by claimiong that your wauy is the only way..."
I never claimed my way was the only way. I just said that what I said would work was something I was SURE would work. Everything else was mostly guesswork.The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) asserts that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed [Thomas Jefferson]
Boss,
In re, the nails and strapping;
I'ld think that the nails are subjected to both pull out and shear forces. Pull out on the joist adjacent to the one being deflected downwards and shear from the twisting forces at the loaded joist. Still, sounds like a good idea to use screws or flooring nails.
Thinking about vibration and deflection vs twisting, I only have "feel" to work with. No quantifable data. The resonances of a typical joist are going to be of a pretty high frequency and dampen rapidly in deflection mode compared to twisting mode.
I can get a feel for this by comparing the sense of hitting a nail on edge of a joist vs the side.
Analyzing the stresses involved with bridging is a little more complicated.
I can see it as a truss with only one web, but that means that I have to look at it twice. On the upward movement it would act somewhat as a full length X-Truss, (however, with out a compressive member,) because of the 4' wide 3/4" to 1 1/2" web of the flooring. But, on the downward movement I can only see it as a 32" wide span with two braces rising for the outside towards the center, (no tensional member.)
In other words, on the upward movement, I can disassociate the floor joists but not for the downslide.
Boss, will your program run the numbers on a truss with a 3/4" by 4' upper flange, a 3/4" by 3 1/2' bottom flange and a 3/4" by 3 1/2" "X" style web? This would be a floor with 1x3 bridging 4'OC and 1x3 strapping under the bridges.
I'm interested in the additive strength and stiffness, and in comparing vibrational characteristcs with a typical floor system without any blocks, bridging or other modifications.
This place is the kind.
Sometimes it's the cruel. heheheh.
SamT
"will your program run the numbers on a truss with a 3/4" by 4' upper flange, a 3/4" by 3 1/2' bottom flange and a 3/4" by 3 1/2" "X" style web?"
Nope.I have a hectic schedule. I'm busier than than someone who works at the lemming suicide hotline.
Oh Piffin (or anyone else) -- Now I read:
when sistering, be sure to use plenty of PL Premium or you could find that you have added sqeaks to the system.
In our loft, we sistered about every joist, screwed and nailed, but no PL. The picture is what we have now -- the OSB is just temporary for us to walk on, the joist ends are not blocked yet, and the tops of the bridging is nailed solid at the top and temporarily attached at the bottom. The plan next was AdvanTech with PL, screwed or nailed. Do you have any suggestions of anything else that might prevent squeaks.
It doesn't seem squeaky now.
kestrel
Yes... improve squeaks....if you wan't more squeaks...add more bridging.
If you want less squeaks, take out all that bridging.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
could you explain the deal on squeaks and bridging....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I can explain Imerc.
Bridging is often the culprit when squeaks occur. If the ceiling is drywalled, they are tough to fix.
If you don't put any in, it cant squeak.
I haven't put any in in about 10 years. No ones complaining about bouncy floors.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Blue,
It seems to me the "expert's" have given the opinion that bridging is only important during the construction phase, at least where the subfloors have been glued and screwed.
Am I on track with that understanding?
The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Bob, I have never heard a definitive answer regarding bridging. It's not required in Michigan on 2x10's which shocks just about every builder. I haven't put any in in 10 years. Iwouldn't put any in my house (In fact...I didn't).
If we have to go back and put some in (two houses have had to be retrofitted when the builders noticed it and requested it after drywall, we simply staple it in....no big deal...we'd rather go back after the basement floors are poured anyways.
If is does in fact stiffen a floor, fine....I'll put it in if the builders want it.....but it's gonna have to be a special request....I'm not putting it without prodding.
Actually, I use all the bridging stock for roof kickers...I love using it for that!
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Thanks, it is always informative to hear what works and what good people doThe key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Thanks, it is always informative to hear what works and what good people do.
You do realize that you're seeking advise from the very genius that created the need for home inspectors, don't you? Blue shares the same knowledge of wood that a termite would have, he knows it tastes good and if he keeps at it long enough, the house will fall down eventually.
Cross bridging doesn't cause squeaks, poor workmanship causes squeaks.
Gabe
We'll be framing a floor structure with #2 SPF 2x10s, 16 on center, with clear spans from 10'-6" to 13'-10".
Underneath this main floor is an unfinished basement.
Would you advise cross bridging here or blocking? And at what span points?
One to two runs of blocking. One down the center for the 10 - 6 span and divide the 13 - 10 span in thirds.
I also prefer to add a run of blocking on the ends, butt the joists over the beams and splice them together.
I prefer blocking. It's installed in one operation. You can either install it in line or staggered, I install it staggered because toe nailing has more tendency to split the wood if installed by hand as opposed to pneumatic. I install it from below. That way you don't load the floor/joist during the installation. I kill plumbers who use a sawzall.
If you do the work yourself either will do the job but if you're having it done by a sub, it's easier to quality control blocking. A lot of times the nailing on crossbridging is incomplete and therefore renders the bridging useless.
The key to a solid floor is consistency and absolute continuety. And use the driest lumber that you can to minimize shrinkage after installation.
Gabe
Thanks. A couple things re blocking . . .
Structurally, I cannot see that it is doing anything different from bridging. It is there to prevent joist roll, and I cannot see any other job it is doing. How do you think it differs in structural behavior?
We are concerned about its interaction with the floor sheathing, right? If so, why not hold down the blocking about 1/2" or even 1" so as to negate any problem potential? Actually, 1" would be good for my installation due to the need to run staple-up heat tubing against the deck bottom.
And regarding bridging, what are your thoughts about this, from Simpson?
View Image
If you were building in a laboratory there would be little if any difference between blocking and cross bridging.
BUT we don't build in laboratories.
Your example used metal bridging straps.
Most are 2x2s spruce and of the poorest quality. Most are nailed top first and then later the bottoms after the floor is loaded. A large percentage will split at the ends. The pre-cut angles are rarely the same as actual requirements of the spacing or even depth ( 2x8, 2x10 or 2x12).
Few builders would take the time to cut their own cross bridging to ensure perfect fit so they make due with the standard one size fits all.
Blocking is just easier to ensure absolute continuety and consistency.
The point that I was making earlier is that it's not the concept of cross bridging that causes squeaks, it's the lack of workmanship and consistency.
Besides, most squeaks are traced to gaps between the plywood and joists.
Gabe
What I know is that on technical stuff, I've always been impressed by his knowledge.
Sometimes I find stuff contractors have screwed up.
More often it's homeowner "improvements" and/or neglect.
The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Edited 10/26/2004 9:33 am ET by Bob Walker
What I know is that on technical stuff, I've always been impressed by his knowledge. Well some people are easier to impress than others. Blue has never been strong on technical stuff unless BS is now classified as such. If guys like blue could get away with building your home with 50% less wood, charge you 50% more in 50% less time and still get away with it, he would. Not because he's efficient but because he's got no real appreciation for the industry, the homeowner or anyone else but himself.
Sometimes I find stuff contractors have screwed up.
More often it's homeowner "improvements" and/or neglect.
Here, I would seriously disagree with you. More often it's a hack who calls himself a contractor that screws up work that he has convinced the homeowner he can do for them at a bargain rate.
Gabe
OK Gabe
You obvoiusly know a heck of a lot me than I do about what I find on my home inspections
Quick, tell me who is going to win the series so I can get some serious money down.The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Unless they're playing on ice, I haven't a clue.
Quick how many lawsuits or court challenges will decide the US Presidential election and how many days, weeks will it take to declare a winner?
Gabe
well, some folks think they're skating on thin ice, does that count?
The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Edited 10/26/2004 6:13 pm ET by Bob Walker
Who is skating on thin ice, the boys of summer or the white house hopefuls?
Or both?
Gabe
Bob, I might warn you that you are taking advice from a guy that sits in a trailer. He doesn't actually do anything in the rough residential field, except maybe be a wanna be.
The idea that a 13' span needs three rows of blocking makes my stomach hurt from laughing.
If you listen to Gabe, more is better.....why not put 30 rows of blocking in?
50?
Hell, just pound them in solid till you can't see daylight...then skip the subfloor!
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Are you sayiong you don't use blocking either?
On any span more than eight feet?
If you were framing for me, I wouldn't want to have to prod you too often. I want somebody who does it right the first time.
I dion't care if it is blocking, bridging, or strapping, but it will be stabilized!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, I frame every house to code....yes minimum code.
Code requires cross bridging on 2x12...nothing on 2x10 and under. It's pretty well established that it doesn't add any strength....
If it did add anystrength, don't you think the span tables would grow for each row of bridging?
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the tables are for blocking included at no less than 8' intervals.
blocking or bridging doesn't ADD strength. it maintains the strength intended by keeping the joists plumb. Without blocking, they WILL roll and lose a portion of the intended design strength.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, I frame every house to code....yes minimum code.
The words of an accomplished hack. This is a wingnut that wouldn't have the opportunity to unload his tools on most professional sites before he'd be thrown off.
Gabe
Gabe, if your going to try to insult me, at least criticize me for something I'm doing wrong.
If the plans call for 2x10, what am I supposed to do...run out and buy 2x12? I'm just supplying labor...I don't do the drawings, don't do the specs, and don't write the code.
At least I get out of the trailer!
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Gabe, if your going to try to insult me, at least criticize me for something I'm doing wrong.
Haven't really tried to insult you and can't criticize you for something that you're doing wrong because I can't see what you're doing right or wrong.
I can point out you once left this forum in a tandrum saying you would never come back and you obviously needed this forum more than it needed you.
I did point out that your advice/comments had no merit. To simply say that cross bridging caused squeaks was dumb. No product causes squeaks. Poor quality products or workmanship or a combination of the two MAY cause a squeak but it's rarely that simple.
You've handled enough wood to know that no two piece of wood are the same. The wood inside any given bundle will have different moisture levels and as a result of these two facts, they will react differently once installed.
You knew you were BSing and you still put it out as some kind of factual advise.
Gabe
Gabe, thanks for welcomeing me back so graciously.
I'm not bsing anyone about anything. I do understand that different species have varying moisture contents and react differnently during the drying process. That perhaps explains why some bridging will squeak...others won't. Of course the actual mechanical installation will have some bearing.
My suggestion is, and remains to be is, don't put stuff in that is unneccessary! If it actually did something, code would require it. If it actually had value, the span tables would lengthen for every row of blocking or bridging.
One other thing....someone in here (I think it was you) mentioned that most of the angles are not cut properly...mentioned something about precuts. I've never seen a precut and we always just used our framing square to create a pattern for the exact angle. The ironic thing is this....the best angle for bridging would be a 90 degree square cut! All framers know from nailing braces that the square edge of the brace is pounded tightly into the receiving member and it "bites" and holds better than if you cut a "fancy" angle on it. So, the proper angle for bridging is square...and most framers are doing a poor job if they fit the angle "properly".
blue
If you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
That's too dumb to even try to reply to, even for you.
It's almost scary that anyone on this forum might take your comments seriously.
Gabe
Gabe, I don't want anyone to take me seriously. I don't know what I'm doing....only you do.
If anyone wants to know about framing...don't listen to me...LISTEN TO GABE!
blue
ps I hope you feel better now.If you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Gabe, I don't want anyone to take me seriously. I don't know what I'm doing....only you do. (No, not really. There has to be a few dozen regulars on this board that know more about framing than I do, you just don't happen to be one of them!)
If anyone wants to know about framing...don't listen to me...LISTEN TO GABE! (May be the only good advice that you're ever given on this board)
blue
ps I hope you feel better now.
Thanks for your kind thoughts. I'm a little tired but otherwise fine. Having to install the millwork on this project after my regular day is done is draining me a little but don't worry, I still have all the energy I need to handle you.
Gabe
Gabe, Im very happy that you have energy to handle me. and I agree, you do know a lot more about framing than me. and I further agree, no one should ever listen to me....if they have any questions about framing, they should go to you. YOu are 1000 times wiser, smarter, funnier, stronger, brighter, nicer ...did I miss any...than me.
Thank the holy heavens for you.
I love you. I wish I could just come and look over your shoulder and learn about framing.
my world will never be complete unless I can study under your strong leadership.
Eevery one...group hug....
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
LOL
>>did I miss any?
Prettier?The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Prettier? I don't know...I've never met Gabe, nor saw any pictures.
If I can get a picture, I'll be sure to beg to get it autographed...it'll be worth a lot some day!
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Gabe, leave the attitude in the tavern, please.The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Gabe, leave the attitude in the tavern, please.
What have I said to you or about you that would have solicited that comment?
Gabe
>>What have I said to you or about you that would have solicited that comment?
About me? Nothing.
I request again, please keep your displays of attitude in the Tavern.
The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
About me? Nothing.
In that case, keep your advise to yourself.
Gabe
>>In that case, keep your advise to yourself.
Sorry Gabe.
As you might know, Blue and I are at daggers draw in the Tavern, with some pretty pronounced differences of opinion.
But I respect his substantive messages and knowledge and opinions, and I object to your personal attacks on him in the technical sections of the forum.
Regarding my "advise" to you, I will no more keep it to myself than I would if someone were posting bigoted or salacious messages.
It is one thing to disagree with the technical views of someone else, and something else entirely to attack the person who holds those different views.
It is my opinion that you are wrong in posting those messages attacking him and his knowledge in these sections.The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Sorry Gabe.
As you might know, Blue and I are at daggers draw in the Tavern, with some pretty pronounced differences of opinion.
But I respect his substantive messages and knowledge and opinions, and I object to your personal attacks on him in the technical sections of the forum.
Regarding my "advise" to you, I will no more keep it to myself than I would if someone were posting bigoted or salacious messages.
It is one thing to disagree with the technical views of someone else, and something else entirely to attack the person who holds those different views.
It is my opinion that you are wrong in posting those messages attacking him and his knowledge in these sections.
My my my, what a pompous arrogant position in life you have given yourself. So you believe that minimum code construction is good construction.
Well, I don't and I'd rather stomp on anyone who does than watch some unsuspecting home owner be taken for a ride twice. The first time when they hire some hack that turns their dream into a nightmare and the second time when they have to hire a competent contractor to demolish some hacks work and rebuild it with money that they no longer have.
Gabe
Gabe
Bob, don't anger Gabe. Gabe is right....you are wrong. Don't come in here and stir Gabe up. Just let him be. He knows a lot more about framing than me.
Gabe, here's a pic of the house I'm framing. Can you give me any tips on how to complete the framing?
Were setting a gable in this pic.
I'd be willing to take it apart piece by piece and start over....anything to make you happy and to get approbation from you!
Please, give me anything...anything at all. I need to be a great framer like you!
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
Picture's not good enough to see details. Other than the fact one of the workers uses the right hammer for the job and the half dozen safety violations, hard to judge from an overview shot.
What I do know is that if you frame the same way that you advise, there would be enough screwups in that house to make it a typical track house nightmare.
Please don't leave in a tandrum again Blue, just don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Gabe
Thank you Gabe for those insightful suggestions. I am honored to have you looking over my shoulder.
I'll be glad to promptly attend to those safty violations if you would be so kind as to tell me...you see, I'm way too ignorant to know anything about things like that.
I'll be sure to offer that worker a bonus for having a hammer. I won't have any problem figuring out which worker it is because there's probably only one hammer on the job...the rest of the guys are just wandering around with their thumb inserted in places that need plugging.
I feel so honored that you would take time out of your busy life to assist me in my dreams of becoming a great rough residential carpenter contractor like you. I'm so excited, I'll pass all this information on to my guys. I'd like to tell them everything about your and your wonderful experiences....would you mind sharing how many houses you've contracted to rough frame? I'm sure it would be in the thousands...so...please just tell us what kind of house your working on right now!
I'm so excited to share your framing world with the guys...
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
Thank you Gabe for those insightful suggestions. I am honored to have you looking over my shoulder.
Which reminds me..........If I have to continually look over your shoulder, would you mind using soap the next time you take a shower and a little deodourant wouldn't hurt either.
Gabe
Gabe, my stench is noted.
It's tough buying soap when you make as little money as me. After all, those guys wandering around the job site are expensive....especially when they're waiting for that hammer.
To save money, we leave the bath water in for three months.....that way, we can get three baths for the price of one!
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
I've said my piece.The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
ok, listen up , men !
it has come to my attention that someone is throwing sand in the sandbox..
don't make me come over there...
or we'll all be sorry...
bridging... blocking.... haven't willingly done either in at least 20 years..
not once i found out that our traditional strapping was already exceeding the strengthening /stiffening goals of bridging and blocking...
nope... no blocking for me.. not unless it's spec'd..
and for sure no bridging... can't for the life of me believe that it's actually going to be installed correctly...
now.. squash blocks... and some of the new TJI requirements ... ok..
but our 1x3 bridging on 16" centers is so far superior to blocking and bridging that it's silly to put them in....
and no... the 8d nails don't loosen up ... not unless the floor system failsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Exactly Mike!
Now...what does it say about the effects that drywall has. Doesn't drywall lock in the joists if you glue and screw it? It is a structural component of roofing systems!
If it's good enought to brace the roof system....why isn't it good enough to brace the floor system....even though the floor doesn't need any bracing!?
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
not once i found out that our traditional strapping was already exceeding the strengthening /stiffening goals of bridging and blocking...
Sorry Mike but that statements wrong. Find me the data to support your claim.
Gabe
"but our 1x3 bridging on 16" centers is so far superior to blocking and bridging that it's silly to put them in"
"and no... the 8d nails don't loosen up ... not unless the floor system fails"
That's purely speculation. Sounds more like snakeoil. Possibly even b.s. What could you possibly know?
Everyone knows that sistering a 2x23 to the original 2x10 is the only sensible theory with some help from my friends, we have dropped a large maple tree in the backyard to cut 2x23's from we are trying to fabricate saw blades out of trash can lids for this endeavor as our more standard and practical blades are unable to make the cut... but the going is hell
With the additional time tooling up is taking, there is concern that using 2x23 joists of spalted maple may adversely affect the theory maybe we should've waited before we dropped the tree Does anyone have experience w this? or a big saw I could borrow?
"even the sugar plum fairy knows you're wrong"
Thats hilarious Ed.
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
thanks blue, but i'm serious when we dropped the maple we hit my mom's car she's really p.o.'d ah, we never listen to her anyways
I love guys like you!
I dropped a huge tree. I had it roped, but it looked like it was going to lean and hit the neighbors house anyways. Being stupid ( this was my first), I went full steam ahead anyways. When the thing started down, it did in fact lean and was heading straight for the neighbors house. In slow motion, the ropes and GMC did their thing and it "curve" by the house, just brushing it....but then, it was hung up in some other trees, about 15 off the ground. I stood looking in disbelief, glad that I had only put a small dent in the gutter, and wondered how in the heck I was going to finish the drop...
All of a sudden, sweet music to my ears...the tree broke free and landed with a huge shudder.
I'm a freaking lumberjack now!
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
All right guys, don't stop now, this is starting to get good,
who needs t.v. when we got the flaming soaps at breaktime :-)
Butch...I think Gabe might want me to DROP the soap!
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
Bridging is often the culprit when squeaks occur. If the ceiling is drywalled, they are tough to fix.
If you don't put any in, it cant squeak.
I haven't put any in in about 10 years. No ones complaining about bouncy floors.
ROFLMAO
You still make me laugh with your advice. Keep it coming.
Gabe
Hi blue,
If you want less squeaks, take out all that bridging.
Thanks. I think we will wait to see if it squeaks. It's going to be a while before any ceiling goes in anyway.
kestrel
What is that - 16 - 20 feet with doubled 2x12s?
I'll let Blue explain why he thinks the bridging will add sqeaks. My guess is that as the sisters shrink, the bridging will be able to allow flex and the wood riding on the nails holding them together will rub wood on metal within the system. OTOH using screws instead of nails in the bridging could help prevent that
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Piffin,
That's just 2x8's. We changed the plan midstream and getting the max headroom became desirable. It only spans 10' . The downstairs walls aren't in yet.
Thanks for the suggestion to use screws in the bridging. We will do that.
kestrel
Waait a minurte. It looks like you niot only screwed and nailed, but that you bolted them together too. Good choice and less likely to squeak.
Getting that metal chimney to float up in the air by itself was quite a trick too!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>Getting that metal chimney to float up in the air by itself was quite a trick too!
Probably sky hooks .....The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
OK Piffin,
Waait a minurte. It looks like you niot only screwed and nailed, but that you bolted them together too. Good choice and less likely to squeak.
We just wanted to make sure they didn't come apart. This is called sturdy construction. I'm just glad that picture didn't show the part with welded plate and angle iron.
Getting that metal chimney to float up in the air by itself was quite a trick too!
Don't you have one of those yet? The greatest Ronco Chimney Levitator -- raises it up out of the way when not in use.
kestrel
I might add, if you keep that X bridging in place,where the bridging intersects each
other , I'd made sure there is at least 1/8" to 1/4" gap. When your joist move from
somebody walking above and you get any flex your X bracing is a potential for a
squeak if thy touch each other..
I'm from the old school on blocking, I think it helps stiffening a floor, with that said
when I framed I always put them in line with each other, not staggered and instead
of straight nailing through joist into block I'd always nail each end with toe- nails
(3 or 4nails per side of each block)and with todays glues now I would use a line of
glue on the end of each block to help eliminate squeaks(I didn't then). Also the use of
pipe clamps helps keep every thing tight when installing blocks(bridging). It sounds
like I was anal about it and I was.That is one reason I don't frame anymore, to much
of a perfectionist.
Edited 10/25/2004 6:44 am ET by butch
Butch, being anal in framing will make you poor.
If the builders truly want to have a stiffer floor, wouldn't you agree that they should purchase 2x12 instead of 2x10s?
They take the cheap route, then demand that the carpenters go to extraordinary lenghts to make the floors stiff! Then, the carpenters do more than they get paid for....leaving no money for wages, benefits and profit.
I give em what they pay for.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
<Butch, being anal in framing will make you poor>
Couldn't have said it any better myself, that is why
I also said I don't frame anymore.
But I sure did enjoy it, lot of satisfaction in it.
Hi butch,
The bridging is spaced, but will double check to make sure it's on every one, and they are toe nailed. We'll be adding Piffin screws before they are covered.
You must build the way my husband does. Everything was pipe clamped - usually in both directions.
Thanks,
kestrel
I think the prefered method with X bridging is to nail the bottom of the bridging
after the plywood is on. That helps to straighten out the highs and lows with
the decking and if you nail the X bracing before decking you lock those H's and L's
in, I hope that makes sense?
Keep posting pictures as you progress.
Hi butch,
I follow what your saying. We have is a single nail now just tacked below the bridging to temporarily hold it. We will pull those to allow the floor to level itself as you said and then screw the bottoms in. I wouldn't think the temporary nail will be a problem with allowing the floor to self-level. If it is, we'll pull them out when the AdvanTech is done.
I'll post more pictures one of these days, but we are slow, and still have a few of the shingles to do. Did you see the pictures I posted last year:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=37409.1
kestrel
Hey thanks for that link, as a matter of fact I had seen and forgot about your
"Project", with there so many people in here it is hard to keep up with it all.
And I had responded in that thread also
but anyway thanks for all the pictures and when you get time post some more
as one day I would like to do the same thing for myself and family.
Hi butch,
If your not building your place yet, start on the plans. That gives you the chance to change them a zillion times before you actually start.
kestrel
Kestrel I would advise pulling them before you lay the floor. Just let them hang free. Layot your first sheet of plywood and that will usually straignten the entire joist.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Hey blue
I would advise pulling them before you lay the floor. Just let them hang free. You do you mean hanging, still attached at the top, not completely removed? Right now they are attached at the top. The bottom nail is below the bridging, not attached to the bridging. It's just there to keep them from drooping for the time being. We will pull those before the plywood is put on.
Thanks for helping out. I wasn't expecting squeaks, so this thread put us on the lookout for them. If it looks like they will be a problem, we will take them out.
kestrel
Yes Kestrel, leave them nailed at the top.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Butch, it is a must that you install the plywood first, then nail the bottoms. I know this from experience.
I apprenticed under a strict carpenter. Occasionally he had funny quirks. One quirk was we nailed all the briding up before we layed the deck. To put it mildly...it was a nightmare job.
Anyways, since that was the way I learned and that was the way I did it, I did it when I built my first house...I was still an apprentice. Well, that house squesked more than any house I've ever been in...and I glued the hell out of it and nailed it twice...once with 8d screw shanked nails...and then again with 16d cement coated sinkers.
It squeaked till the day I moved out.
It was useful for knowing when the kids came in....
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
<it is a must that you install the plywood first, then nail the bottoms. I know this from experience>
Blue, I thought thats what I said to, install the ply than nail the bottoms :-)
But about the point about not putting or putting in bridging, your not gonna
get a lot of argument from me. I may be wrong, but I believe the key for me
was when I installed blocking I toe-nailed instead of nailing into end grain
On another note, I'm glad to see you back here, way back when, when
you had that thread going about "boogerin with blue" I for one enjoyed it
and followed along lurking in the background.
If you need every bit of your basement space, you will need to go with one of the many suggestions that have been made. If you don't mind losing a little space, you can frame a wall two feet in from the outside which will cut the span by two feet and you can build shelves into this space for useful storage. This will make a huge difference in the bounciness of the floor if it works with your basement needs.
sister them.
even if you have to use 2 boards per one joist ... to fit them in ... with a tight splice in the middle somewhere ...
PL Glue and either screw or nail them off.
anything from a 2x4 to a 2x10 will help.
another 2x10 making for a 4x10 would pretty much adress the problem!
without knowing the span ... but since 2x10's are bouncy but not collapsing .. I'd let the budget dictate in your case. Anything "extra" will help.
buy a coupla cases of PL ... rent a compressor and framing nailer ...
and have at it.
Jeff
Nail a grid of 1x3 furring strips, spaced 16 on center, to the bottom of the joists. They go 90 degrees from the span direction; they aren't "sistered" to the joist bottoms. This can provide additional stiffness.
All good ideas. But there may be another possible reason for bounce.
Inspect the bearing point at the block wall. Look for seepage from the exterior grade. This is to to make sure the bottoms of the joist and exterior hasn't suffered at the hands of termites and or moisture.
Is there a lowering of the floor at the base under the china cabinet? Even if it's just a 1/4" provided that's not from sanding the floor it might be sign that there is damage at the bearing point.
There are other possible reasons for bounce after 45 years.
>>The wife is not liking the sound of the china cabinet when people walk by it.<<
Well.... I would first try felt pads in the china cabinet doors and separating the plates, before rebuilding the subfloor. Wasn't that the real concern...
If you have to perform surgery, and have your wife's concurrance, I found that 1/2 ply on top and bottom of the joists + PL adhesive + screws makes a hugh improvement.
Are you sure that it is the floor that is bouncing?? Is it possible that the china cabinet is not sitting squarely on all four resting points--kind of like when a table only hits on three legs--even small gap (1/16-1/32") could cause the rattle.
A cheaper idea.
After great thought why not just hang your china hutch off the wall slightly off the floor. Then when you walk by it won't rattle. Cheezy but easy.
Using Piffin screws IMERC says are best.
Edited 10/23/2004 6:35 pm ET by JAGWAH
just passin' on all those classicly great ideas you come up with....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
That idea should create another question in few weeks like "how to stop my wall from bowing"
Try a simple solution first, nail solid blocking between joists.Bridging whether solid or x bridging transfers a heavy load over several joists. I added bridging ( on 6'-0" centers) to a fairly new home two years ago. A large piano was in a room that never had a problem with bouncy floor before the piano was put in. Bridging solved the problem. I prefer x bridging but not practical in this case.
mike
BOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!
Scribe once, cut once!
So John..... After posting your question there has been over 123 post. Your last post if I'm right came in at #5. Talk about a divisive issue, are you a trouble maker?
Seriously! Unless I missed your post... What did you decide to do and has it worked?
I really am curious after following all the interesting advice everyone has given.