I have a woodstove chimney on my shop that leaks when we get sideways rain, which is several times per year. The water (not much, but enough to matter) comes down the windward side of the pipe only. I’m pretty sure what is happening is that the water gets blown in thru the vent holes in the roof jack. See attached pics for roof jack itself, and actual installation.
It’s a b!tch but I can get up there to work on this, but I’ll suck it up and climb. I’m just not sure what to do when I get there, as all of the parts appear to be installed correctly. My roofer suggested riveting a second storm collar under the first, to basically lower the bottom edge and steepen the path that rain would have to climb to get in. With 30-40 MPH winds and stronger I’m not sure it will matter much. I also wonder about rain ricocheting off the steep roof and up into the space under the storm collar.
A virtual case of beer and a stinky cigar to whomever has the answer.
Replies
install a storm collar
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make the a really large collar...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
keep the beer...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It is hard to see much dsetail of what you have. Does your camera have a good zoom or can you shoot a high res and edit only that feature to show digitally zoomed?
There are a couple things I see to comment on though.
That install has the flashing significantly raised so it is possible that the atypical installation has something to do with the leak.
The other is that the boot set at succh an angle that it appear it may possibly be mmade for a lower pitch roof. If it is the right one for this roof, it is at the maximum and possibly not the best fit. Most companies make two or three stndard boots. One will be for flat roofs, one for 3/12 up to about 8/12 and the other for very steep roofs. My impression is that you have an 8/12 boot on a steeprer roof.
As for the storm collar, what you have is a nice large one, but I cannot see if it is installed right. Here is how I always do them - I run a bead of butyle caulk or high temp smellycone around the stack slightly higher than the collar will sit finally. Then I wrap the pipe with the collar nice and tight up above that point. Then I slide the collar down to just above the boot so it is seating itself in the caulk. Then I run another bead of caulk around the top of the collar to pipe joint.
Aflue pipe will grow in length as it is heated and the collar will rise with it. That does create added chance for weind to blow rain in right under the collar and a ridge location is the windiest place on a roof, esp with swirling and uplifting winds, but I do not recommend caulking the pipe to the boot because it will not hold with the thrrmal lengthening of the flue.
You may ned to make up another collar flange that will fit tighter to the pipe and hange further down onto the boot to baffle the wind there.
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Re the flashing height, I assume you are talking about the fact that the entire thing was set on a curb of sorts? I don't see how lowering the whole thing onto the roof panels would have made a difference, but I isn't no roofer or tin man, and sometimes I don't even have a firm grasp of the obvious. The roof jack is the right one, it's 6/12 to 12/12, so it's at the max. I am inclined to shinny up there and install a larger storm collar but the vent holes in the jack are there for a reason and I'm concerned about doing something nonstandard. At this point there is no stove and the flue has not been used, so there has been no movement. I am sure the caulking was well done, I was there poking my head out a skylight on the other side while the whole thing was installed.
The good part about this leak is that it does not get the wood wet anywhere. The water runs down the outside of the pipe and does not get off of the metal. A small soup can would collect what drips in during a winter, with room to spare, but having any leak at all bothers me. We get some HOWLING winds here and it may be semi-unavoidable.
Usually, the only thing this sort of leak causes is a small rust spot. For a unit in regular use, the heat evaporates the water so most people don't know thjat it is leaking.I have never seen a vent hole in the boot so I can't omment on that.What I was getting at with the comment on it being raised on that 'curb' is that it depends HOW it was raised..
Nevertheless, odds are from the description that it is at the collar that it is leaking.
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If the water is only running down the outside of the pipe, the most probable cause is a poorly or uncaulked storm collar. If the water was coming thru the vent holes in the boot, it would probably drip clear of the pipe. The stock storm collar should shield the holes.
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cCould be uncaulked, but he does say that it only leaks when the wind blows, so I do think it is swirling rain up under the storm collar
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he does say that it only leaks when the wind blows, so I do think it is swirling rain up under the storm collar
How's it jumping from the boot to the pipe then and only manifesting it self on the pipe. I could see some of the water blowing thru the vent holes over to the pipe, but some of the water would also drip beside it or run down the back of the boot, the last two being the most likely. Either way, the odds are mighty good that it's storm collar related. The storm collar may be mounted too high as well. Can't tell from the pic.
edit: I also meant to say I've seen storm collars that are caulked 90% of the way because the caulker just reached his finger around the opposite side from where he was and never actualy looked at his caulk job. When it blows it might move the water around the pipe enough to hit that spot. If the rain were falling straight down, the cap would shield the storm collar from the majority of the rain.
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Edited 11/19/2007 7:21 am ET by seeyou
Thanks for the comments, gentlemen. I take CU's point about how water getting thru the vent holes might actually fall clear of the pipe. I was assuming that water that is blown hard enough to get up and thru the vent holes would be moving fast enough to hit the pipe.
Mo' betta' pic attached. I can't see what the caulk looks like, either from the pic or using binoculars.
That's a whopper of a storm collar. If it's installed where it's supposed to be, and not too high on the pipe above the boot, it's not likely any water is getting to those vents.
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Only other thing might be wind blowing up the roof slope is carrying water and the "lid" of the flue is "catching" that windblown rain like a bit of a scoop. Now, most is not going to go in, sire enough.
But, some might, and it would likely blow around to the leeward side to drip in--then some vaguarity of the flue pipe makes the windard side where it drips out.
Or, it's one of those things, where, it only happens after it has rained ehoung, and then, when the wind backs, as it generally does in convective storms (after veering before), that change in direction lets the least amount of water "sneak" in the vent holes.
But, that's clean WAG on my part.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
David, Can you tell if the leak originates in line with the seam in the top piece of pipe? Might be that a poor caulk job didn't deal the area well enough.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Had a similar problem except that it was a much lower pitched metal roof and the jack vent opening was closer to the roof. Got some metal screening (like for screen doors) and wrapped a piece around the vent area and used some 3/4" galvanized strapping to secure it. The screen reduces the velocity of the droplets and breaks them up so they can't enter the vent. Give that a try before putting on another jack. Your pitch looks like water would have a hard time coming around at the joint.
David,
It looks to me like that storm collar sat on top of the section of pipe that ends right there, and then the upper section sits on top of the collar.
Something made to fit that particular snap together insulated pipe ?
If so, are you sure that they put silicone caulk on the top of the collar before they snapped/clamped/screwed the upper pipe on ?
That seems to be some nasty large seam there. (At the top of the storm collar.) And it looks to me to be the most logical place the water would be getting in. Normally the water would drain. But the wind could blow whatever water was running down the outside of the pipe, right into that gap.
silicone will be corrosive to that pipe...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It's what is sold and recommended at the local fireplace store.I have the same pipe, and the silicone has not had any ill affect whatever on the pipe, in over 7 years...
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okay...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Silicone isn't corrosive to it, but it is not the best choice either. I haven't used silicone for any metal joints for over twenty years. Too many failures. Silicone hardens and breaks bond. Too many other caulks that have better bonding and more stretch for more years
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Good job Mr photographer!Still don't see any caulk. That doesn't mean it isn't there, but I have seen a lot of guys trust to a snug fit and not use any...I was driving past a house to day that I worked on back about 1990 with a problem like this. I chased that leak five ways to sunday...long story short, it was triple wall pipe and when the wind was just right, water was blowing up under the chimney cap and running down between the walls of the pipe, landing in the support box and sliding on down the black pipe inside. Your Q made me remember that while driving by.
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Okay, I'll give you that.What do you recommend that is better than 100% silicone ?(BTW: I've never had a failure with 100% silicone if it was applied correctly to a clean surface. Doesn't mean it can't happen, I've just never seen it.)
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geocell.Doesn't matter if it is clean or not. When it hardens after a few years and you have half an inch of thermal expansion in the steel, the silicone will break, o4r break bond. The Geocell has up to 800% expansion capacity though.
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Geocell.Good to know.
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Just read that again.I think the common complaint I have seen about silicone caulks failing has been hardening, and breaking bond.I am wondering if that was 100% silicone ?In all the times I have used silicone, I have never used anything but 100% silicone. And I have never seen it get brittle, harden, or break bond. (Except for those cases when I had to fix someone else's botchup, and they applied it to a wet/dirty surface. In those cases it lost bond in places.) For example, the silicone I used on my own stainless triple wall pipe is still as pliable and bonded as ever. And it has been 7 years... (Just inspected it in depth, last week, because I am about to remove and recycle that installation for a smaller stove. Gonna take some long thin sharp tools to break those silicone bonds I made...)Plus, 100% silicone stands up to the heat of a stovepipe.
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Yeah, 100% is all I used back then.GE has some 2000° stuff too for this sort of application.The failures I have seen were not in flues like this, now that I think. It was always in metal roofing and flashings where there was that much movement at the seals.A collar like this never has to move, relative to the pipe. Any expansion is along the circumference and approx equal to that of the circ of the pipe
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Curious to know how you guys would get up on a roof like this? It's a 6/12 dormer that's about 18 feet at the fascia, and the little bit of 12/12 at the top is another 3-4 high, which you can sort of lean against. I ran into the roofer today at the lumberyard and he grimaced when I brought this up. Asked if I would set up a scaffold tower to the fascia below the chimney so he can land there if he slides. Then he'll check it out...
Set up your scaffolding.Then hang a ladder over the ridge with hooks made for that purpose.Stay on the ladder.In your case, I almost think I'd strap some foam to the ladder, to cushion it against the roof. (To save any scratches or other damage to the roof.)
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Had to go back and study that first picture again.For a quickie repair like this I would stand my long ladder to the ridge and slide my sweet cheeks along the peak. What is that peak? 28'?Were it something I anticipated going up and down half the day, I would use a chicken ladder on the back side hanging off the ridge.BTW, I have a chicken ladder that I glued wool felt carpet pad onto the AL so I don't scratch the surface of the metal on something like that.Fall protection - don't ask, don't tell...
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Curious to know how you guys would get up on a roof like this?
Set a ladder up to the dormer roof. Clamp a couple of vice grip sheetmetal clamps to the seams somewhere that you can reach from the ladder. Lay a chicken ladder so it's supported from sliding by the vice grips and so you can easily transistion from your access laddder to the chicken ladder. Start squirting caulk.
Asked if I would set up a scaffold tower to the fascia below the chimney so he can land there if he slides. Then he'll check it out...
There's no sliding in this sort of thing. How'd he put the roof on if he doesn't have the right access equipment?
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When the roof was installed I set up scaffolding along the dormer for them, just even with the fascia. As much as they loved it they don't seem to own any, in fact he has asked to rent it but my insurance broker said "I'll cut your head off if you rent anyone your scaffolding!" Anyway, they put all the panels on the dormer first, and then the short steep panels above. The long steep panels were put up from ladders laid on the roof, with the feet on scaffolding below. No ladders with ridge hooks were used IIRC. The guy who put the ridge cap on did some skywalking and sliding of the cheeks. They did a very crisp job, I enjoy looking at it every day.