Hey guys,
Here in Florida, the slowdown seems to be happening. The “big guys” (large tract builders) are giving away stuff left and right to promote sales. Granite counter tops, free tile, mechanical upgrades…heck one is even mentioning something about a deal on swimming pools!
My question for anyone who wants to chime in is how do we as a very small guy stay ahead of this curve? We’re doing some additional advertising and doing very small jobs ($5-10k) to keep money coming in but don’t want to be one of the casualties if the market really goes bust.
Lived in Florida all my life (almost…) so have seen this before and much of it is sometimes hype but just want to do all we can to stay alive and not have to go get “real” jobs working for someone else…
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Mike
Replies
Ever think of temporarily moving?
-T
Not an option when you've got a house and a wife with a career.
Do the best workmanship of anybody around and make sure the customers know it. And smile a lot.
Do that and the work will find you
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Yeah, thats what we're hoping to do. Its worked in the past, so hopefully it will again.
Just a little concerned as we're in just a really competitive region (a couple thousand contractors in our area) and no big jobs on the immediate horizon.
But I like your positive attitude! Thanks
Mike
Refuse to compete on price. Compete on value and quality.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin - " Do the best workmanship of anybody around and make sure the customers know it...."
I'm not so sure at all that that is really the solution or answer.
"...And smile a lot."
But I think your afterthought hints at one of the base elements of what does really works. It's the quality of the customer experience with your company that really matters.
There are scores of contractors out there that provide "quality workmanship". The fact that your company provides "quality workmanship" will not be enough to differentiate you from the field in a tightening competitive market. Everyone provides "quality workmanship" (or I should say everyone that counts provides "quality workmanship"). It's actually pretty cliché.
Much more important is the Quality of the CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE you provide. While smiling helps and is part of that solution lets not be trivial, it goes a lot further than that. We need to make working with our companies not on easy for the customer we have to find the ways to make it pleasurable and even memorable.
I'm not sure where I read it but there was even a recent article in one of my email newsletters or one of the trade magazines that was about just that. I guess I'll just have to rack my brain a little to see if I can recall where I read that but I this is right in line with the thinking written about in the book The Experience Economy.
Not to pooh pooh "quality workmanship" in that I think if you don't provide quality workmanship it will come back to bite you down the line but most customers wouldn't really know "quality workmanship" if they saw it and with a lot of our work that "quality workmanship" is going to be covered up and hidden anyway so they wont even get the chance to see it even if they could understand it.
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Jerrald you are a gentleman and seem to be a scholar but you remind me of our mayor in this town . You have said a great deal but have taught very little about the subject at hand . Would you please get to it ? Id like to be in bed by 10 with this thing put in bed before me . <G>
You gotta point you just havent made it yet with me. Where ya going with it ?
I have a different take on it as well.
Tim
Mooney - "Jerrald you are a gentleman and seem to be a scholar but you remind me of our mayor in this town . You have said a great deal but have taught very little about the subject at hand . Would you please get to it ? Id like to be in bed by 10 with this thing put in bed before me . <G>"
Hmmn maybe you caught me. I go on an on about this Customer Experience thing in that I have a lot to say on the subject and have even picked up some new empirical tidbits on it in these last few months but I really don't have the time to even be posting what I am posting tonight. I have a jamb packed week and I have a lot of work to do setting up a new 20" iMac with our company files just the way I want them. I write all my post in Dreamweaver so I can use HTML as I want to use it and I just happened to be testing out the new Dreamweaver 8 on this MacIntel machine so the timing was just right for me to jump into a discussion tonight.
I guess I was sort of hoping that someone out there who might agree with me on the Customer Experience thing might have picked up the ball and given a run with it.
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I guess I was sort of hoping that someone out there who might agree with me on the Customer Experience thing might have picked up the ball and given a run with it.
Jerrald, it's funny you should mention that because just tonight I made a statement about customer experience that coincides with your comments.
We completed a final walk through tonight with a client that we built a two story 24'x32' addition. They were possibly the best customers we have had in the past two years, very easy to please.
Anyways, we did have one mishap and to make up for it I wrote an apology letter and sent them a $50 gift card to Applebee's. The faux pas was not very serious but I wanted to go over and above their expectations. I was talking with my busines partner about the incident and the whole job in general and I said that I think the quality of the job has to be there but in the end it's not really that important.
Rarely do you hear people rave about the quality of work that they receive, unless the quality is poor. It's the experience that I want to focus on. Most people realize that remodeling is a long, dusty, and arduous process. If we can communicate clearly and do little things that stick out in the minds of the clients (especially the female perspective) that make the process more tolerable you have the makings of a great reputation.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jerrald,
I'll jump in and support you on the customer experience bandwagon (despite how small it seems at this point in the thread).
I live in Austin near Doug. I am a generalist. We self perform almost all the work on our projects. We use the same subs for the work we do sub. We do one project at a time.
Here an examples of what we try to do to enhance the " customers experience" when we work with them.
1. They see the same crew day in a day out from the start of the project until the end and they see the same subs as they did when they visited previous project to " check us out".
2. When I hire someone, I interview for personality as much as skill. I never have to be concerned about my employees manners when working in a clients house.
3. I am at the job every day and visit with client every day. That is a critical part of my job. To make sure everything is ok and we have constant communication.
4. We try to keep projects very clean, remodels immaculate. I got two jobs from clients friends simply because when they visited the job with the owner after hours they could not believe how clean the place was.
5. We spend alot of time helping in the decision making process, picking out stuff, choosing colors, lots of sample paint colors, etc.
6. We buy lots of gifts and treats for our clients-create reasons for celebrations like completed the demolition lunch, finished the framing barbeque, we are almost done bottle of wine and the grand finale open house party for all their friends to celebrate their great and successful project and how they really created a beautiful home for themselves.
7. We fix anything that may have broken or be a defect within one day for the first year-no questions asked except "is 3:00 tomorrow a good time to stop by and look at the problem?"
8. Take care of emergencies for good clients right away even if it is stuff we never worked on or had anything to do with.
9. We try to get to know our clients on a more personal level. Try to promote their business to our other clients and friends, help their families, send birthday cards and holiday gifts.
10. We often become good friends with the people we have worked for.
I know the way I run my business as a generalist is quite contrary to all the business minds out there, but it works really well for us. Other folks caution against getting to friendly with your clients-never been a problem-always been a benefit.
The cost for the high level of customer service is built into every fixed priced project we do. All our work is fixed price. The only changes are those created by the owner or mother nature. The customer has no worries about cost overruns except the one they create themselves.
We recoup these expenses by the simple fact that we do not have to advertise at all. We get referal after referal from these "great experience" clients. Price is rarely an issue with these referals. I have not competetively bid a project in four years (thanks in part to all the great advice from Sonny and Mike Smith) Clients pay for developing design and scope of work documents. I have one client who has waited 1 year to do her kitchen which we will start in September.
Our business has grown nearly 100% per year for the past four years. We are currently booking projects for April 2007. For these referred clients, I have a 75% close rate and I am really not that good a salesman. I average nearly five referals a month from these clients. I estimate that this first half of 2006 we have had to turn down nearly $1 million in work.
I realize we work in a booming part of the country and I am very familiar with busts as well. However, I have a cautious optimism about how the really personalized service approach can help you develop a base of business that will keep it coming in. I also strongly feel that the close relationship makes you the trusted provider and as a generalist, if they need it done we can do it.
As I reread this post, I hope I am not coming across as really cocky about how well we are doing. That certainly was not my goal. I have found that if I do not keep track of specific data, I do not know what I am really doing.
This base of clients took three years to develop where we had consistent and comfortable backlog. Every month or so we send notes and letters to all of our clients with some helpful info and a note asking to remember us when you know of anyone who needs help. Our really good clients get the gifts- such as homemade pies at Thanksgiving, barbeque sauce and utensils on the fourth of July.
When we do get a referral, I send a $25 or $50 gift certificate to a restaurant or Nordstroms or Target or Home Depot. I want them to know that I really appreciate that referal. The gift gets sent regardless of whether or not I get a contract. This referal is better than any lead from Service Magic or any other lead generation outfit.
My wife learned about this active referall system at a real estate conference (she's a real estate agent) It has worked real well for us.
Sorry for the long winded response. BTW Jerrald, good debate is healthly and I have learned so much from all those debates on this forum and much thanks to Mike Smith, Piffen, yourself, Sonny, Blue and all those who have generously shared on this board.
Bruce
Bruce, hows that house coming along?
blue
Coming along well. Brain nearly exploded framing the roof and we have had quite a few rain days. My client has developed a web site if you want to look. He creates names for things he is not so sure about.
http://www.mine-control.com/zack/house
Are you still working on coming down in the near future? Sounds like the development is moving along up there, but I lost track of that thread. I never had a chance to compliment you on that framing project you posted a while back. Pretty spectacular.
Bruce
You and I are going to have to have a sit down sometimes......soon.
I wont be here much longer, heading back up north, its where I belong!
I have a good story to share with you about a contractor in Austin that I was doing a lot of work for, took a great client list and flushed it down the toilet.
I still have your ph no. on my cell, I'll have to give you a call and see if your free sometime.
Doug
Doug,
I would like to as well. I have some work I wanted to discuss with you to possibly get your assistance with. My contact info is also on the web site http://www.haikola.com
Call me when you have some time-Let's shoot for early next.
Bruce
Sounds good, I'll call ya later this week. I'm finishing up a small job and should have it done by Fri.
Doug
That house looks like a doozy. Thanks for the link.
That development didn't work out. I'll post an update as soon as I get my check back. I think I'm going to get it tomorrow.
blue
That's a great post Bruce with a bunch of good stuff in it. You shouldn't worry about being long winded. While I may not make a lot of posts I'll bet if there was a survey done for the longest single post I'd bet I'd win easily. In fact I may even get the top five of longwinded posts. But it's the content that matters and if you're saying something that matters and it's good content like yours was it is certainly worth reading (and it ain't bragging either, it's handing on what works for you to others).
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Your advice about "the experience" is dead on. As a former co-worker used to say, "If you were any closer, you'd be off."
"The Experience Economy" is an excellent book, but I think I had to read it about three times before the concept started to sink in. I bought it on Sonny's recommendation.
A point I would make about this discussion is to not just provide the experience, and the quality, but also to teach the client a few points to brag about.
For example I had replaced a client's raised panel kitchen cabinet doors, with glass panel doors, on the uppers. My comments were along the line of, "These doors seem to add depth to the kitchen."
Not ten minutes later, the husband calls from work to ask how the project is going. Her first words were, "Just beautiful, these doors really add depth to the kitchen."
Don't assume the client knows how to point out to others what makes you different, or what you bring to a project that makes it special, or how their project is special. Give them some specifics.
Bowz
Bowz - "Don't assume the client knows how to point out to others what makes you different, or what you bring to a project that makes it special, or how their project is special. Give them some specifics."
That's a real great point Bowz. We think and look at it as "leaving our clients with a story they can tell".
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Jerrald, Don't worry about the length of your posts, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I think alot of us here on this board all have tremendous skills when doing the physical ascepts of construction. However we lack on the business side of it, your contribution in this matter is greatly appreciated.
Thank you Professor
"How to survive the slow down?"
Im afraid Im not the guy you were lookin to discuss with as you really want to talk about the customer experience . Im not into that . Really.
I try to distance my self from customers and its not where I want to be although I do some of it . I work for a few people but I am bidding high so I lose bids a lot . I started that this year.
Im a trader . Thats where my love remains .
When interrest rates goes higher loans slow down depending on the swing. Bid work slows down. The time is comming to an end of selling . At least a serious slow down. The people with money will still do as they please but they are making more money off CDs . High end work will trudge along . Handy man business is still at a high as people can afford to pay it out of their pocket. The kids have been playing computer games instead of being trained in the trades for one and that will come back to bite .
Rental properties will get higher rents as demands from banks get heaviar and guidelines stricter. The easy loan will phase out . Properties will begin to fall in price as a buffer from the fast pace weve enjoyed and high prices. There will be deals on labor considering the prices the past few years.
Remodeling will hold its own while new builds will suffer .
Rental property will show sharp gains by years end and will continure to climb.
The time of the handy man is at its best yet.
Tim
Mooney - "Im afraid Im not the guy you were lookin to discuss with as you really want to talk about the customer experience . Im not into that . Really."
It's not that that is what I want to talk about as much as it is what I think the key to surviving a slow down will be.
"Im not into that . Really."
But how can you ignore it? I'm not sure I get what you mean or that you get entirely what I mean. I not talking about kissing up to the customer if that's what you are getting at because that isn't necessarily what it takes to provide a great Customer Experience. And different customers have different ideas of just what a great Customer Experience is too.
We have two client clients this summer (one we just finished with and one that is ongoing) where we have virtually no contact with the customer at all yet they are getting a great Customer Experience in that they are getting their projects done well with virtually no inconvenience to them at all and that's what they value.
"Im a trader . Thats where my love remains ."
Now I know I don't know what you mean. A trader? Are you talking about trading financial instruments? If so I was really limiting what I was commenting on to strategies for surviving as a contractor per se.
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Im not into customer relations . Yes I do it and Ive done it my whole working life but its time to turn another chapter. I think the building inspector job just about iced the cake .
Ive taken a long look at my likes and dislikes as well as my stengths and weakneses. I ran a thread not long ago titled , thinkin bout hangin it up . I wont go into that but I took a serious look at leaving the profession or staying but on my terms to the greatest benefit.
The information I posted will be true if not happening already. I believe in the strongest market at the time or at least one that scores well and not hang on to dieing crops. Building and selling houses has just had its great race. Thats been the strongest market to be in and there were a lot of people that made money. I believe the race is over and its season is over . At least for now .
Its time to change .
It doesnt matter what time it is there is a time to carpenter in a particular place in the trend. When interrest was high, I bought rental property cheap and held on to my butt trying to pay high interrest being happy to break even on it and then 10 percent interrest fell to 5 in months . I refinanced and was set to go. Now then the interrest is climbing back the rental rates are climbing because its harder to buy. And lets face it the refinance industry has ran its race for a time . Its season has passed. Now is the time to start enjoying higher rents if you bought in when they were cheap. That crop is starting to have its season as many wont be able to buy with the higher demands of high interrest and outrageuos fuel prices. The people with money will invest ion the rental market and there will be work there for a time . We arent too far away from seeing an apartment boom as soon as the prices of materials plummet from the loss of orders.
Just read my other post again.
All Im saying is that you need to be in a prosperous market instead of a dying one . Or at least in general. There are several here that will pull right through it but that doesnt speak for the volume of their peers .
Geograpghically there are those who will get to build new houses and prosper but it wont be what thre US will be reporting .
Generalzation , used to create game plans can throw strikes at different markets while it can fail at others. The handy man market is still reporting new milestones . According to the reports I read they are in excess of 100.00 per hour and are staying booked . Of course that is billing time and they on average dont bill but 50 percent of the hours per day they put in. So 50 per hour and a strong business economy looks to be a solid business plan for the next 5 years looks like surviving .
Tim
Dammit Jerrald, I should have stayed on the net and argued with you.
Cant the National league catch a break.........Now my Cards are going to have to win it on the road!
Doug
The Cards are going to have to win in Detroit. I think we already gave them a preview. Sorry, maybe next year...
blue
Yea, between the WSox and Detroit shellacing I'm going to be rootin for the Yankees!
Doug
I have several points on this issue by example.
1 have done 3 neighbors fences with shared fence lines and their own, got the job when the first went and visited a friend who I had built his fence 5 months ago with the same deal over 1500 ft. in all.
2 I did alot of extra tricks such as removable panels so they could clean AC units etc.Which really impressed the homeowners and they hadn't asked I just included it in the bid.
3 I then hauled off 2 loads of tree storm damage from the next neighbor who was a widow I traded the work for an old jon boat that was cover in 20 years of pine needles.Got the bill of sale today and told her I was taking the kids fishing tomorrow.She was so happy and said my husband would really like the fact that his old boat was going to be used to bond a man and his kids and I told her to thank him in her prayers(customer for life).
4 next neighbor I removed the caulk from the shower and recaulked took 3 hours to get all the mold out and cleanup before caulking.Going to redo the dormer siding thursday and build a dry creekbed next week.
5 next neighbor sees my work asks to rebuild his gate when free.
6 This one cove has employed me for 2 months with at least another to go
7 I have had my 6 and 10 year old kids with me the whole time as there out of school for the summer the customers have been extremely impressed at how well behaved they are and how much they help their dad.All these people have pools and have let the kids swim every day while I work and have seen me teaching them swimming skills while working.
The point here is that generalization and customer relations has set a new record for me while keeping my kids from watching TV all day and has taught them a new found respect for their dads hard days work.
This is why I like working by myself as I can get personnable with my customers and they feel good about hiring me.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
I like Piffins answer!
In the 80's my home town went through some really slow times. One contractor that I know well kept busy for the whole time. He always told me that he had a reputation of being expensive but very good and thats what kept him busy.
Doug
You've pointed to the trick needed to weather a slow down-build a reputation that goes beyond cheap price or give-aways. It isn't easy to do, but it seems to work during these times of stagnation.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I love it when they say, "It cost a little more than I was expecting, but I'm sure glad you did it that way. it's so much nicer than I expected!"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'd kind of like to piggyback on that comment as encouragement to the OP. The handful of times we actually get to hear that feedback tend to be memorable.
Had a guy who asked me to give him a price on finishing off his basement. Super nice guy, 87, newly remarried (gotta love it!) in a new townhome. He tells me that the punch list guy for their builder is very interested in doing this "on the side" but they're not real sure about the quality they'd end up with. He's sales pitching pretty good.
Well, I got it, and it was, like you said, a little more $ than they anticipated, but they ran with it anyway. I'm about half way through and the punch guy starts doing the basement for the neighbor. I'm thinking one way or another, I'm going to hear something from this down the road. I'm interested.
Well, the guy called me a couple of months later. He says in his crackly voice, "you know Randal, our neighbor got his basement finished too. I think it cost him about ten thousand less than ours"
uncomfortable silence waiting for the other shoe to drop
"and I gotta tell you, it looks like $&iT! Man am I glad we had you do ours". Made my day. "Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton
>>and I gotta tell you, it looks like $&iT! Man am I glad we had you do ours". Made my day
Stuff like that makes my year. I guess it's easy to make me happy.
Piffan,
Be very carefull with answers like that, (higher costs) Too many will think that the solution to success is to raise their prices to attract a better clientel. They do so only to find they've lost their own market while not adding any higher end clients..
Remember, the top is only so big and it's extremely easy to be shoved off it..
The resulting fall can shatter the best of us..
Guess I'd rather climb the mountain past the treeline to the top and then fall off, than be stuck in the mud pit I keep trying to crawl out of. Once in a while I get a grip, but then I get sucked down. Good thing is I pretty much cant get any worse unless someone dumps a load of crap in my pit.
You have absolutely no idea what so ever how to sell anything remotely close to remodeling.
so once again ...
stop trying.
Thanks,
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Come on Jeff! Forklift......remodeling.....what's the difference? lol
Bob
75947.77 in reply to 75947.76
Come on Jeff! Forklift......remodeling.....what's the difference? lol
Roar !
Jeff,
I talk to you contractors all day long, every day and have for the past 15 years.. Most of you are carpenters because that's what you like to be.. You aren't salesmen.
You sell poorly (a few rare exceptions) That's OK when customers are beating down your doors. When things get tough most of you suffer. A few posts earlier someone spoke about suggestion selling. That was excellant..
If you learn one technique from these posts then your time is well spent..
When I want to improve myself on anything, be it trim work or plumbing I go to an expert. I don't ask other salesmen how to do trim work and I darn sure wouldn't tell someone who makes his living selling that somehow selling is like plumbing..
It's my belief that a good salesman could sell anything. That includes remodeling.
I also agree that most remodelers aren't good salepeople. Maybe 10% qualify as being good.
I'm not good at it.
blue
I also agree that most remodelers aren't good salepeople. Maybe 10% qualify as being good.
I'm not good at it.
I don't even know if you need to be good at it. You just need to be less "not good" than most.
Blue, you read a lot, don't you? Have you ever read "You Can't Teach a Kid To Ride a Bike at a Seminar" by David Sandler?
Sandler training was recommended by a couple of successful remodelers I've met. I'm only part way through the book, but I think it is going to bump Tom Hopkins back to third place and become my second favorite sales book. maybe even give Zig a run for #1. Just wondering if you heard anything about it.
Bowz
you cant steal seccond with your foot on first.
"I talk to you contractors all day long, every day and have for the past 15 years."But when do you LISTEN to them? There is a difference!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffan,
The trouble with the internet is that if you make absolute complete statements you take too long. If you glib things trying to be brief someone gets to take things out of context and zing you..
I've thought the exact same thing myself a thousand times. Sometimes it's hard to explain exactly what your talking about without sounding like something you're not.
blue
I don't remember that I said anything about raising prices, though that may be implied. I said to make sure your work is the best around. Then you say to be careful handing ou6t advice like that?!?!If that is bad aadvicematbe that is why some American corporations are having a hard time
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffan,
Yeh, I guess we're both trying to get to the same point. Be good, really really good, and they will beat a path to your doorway.. But beware of being the most expensive. In a money crunch people will accept slightly less in order to get their dream. If you are the most expensive only those who judge the value of things by their price will find their way to you.
I have heard peole say, "I would have used you but you are probably too expensive for me."But it has never slowed me down
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I would have used you but you are probably too expensive for me."
That is the kind of reputation to have, even if it is not really true. It eliminates almost everybody who is shopping for price alone. I think that is a very good thing, slowdown or not.
True, it was generally for a job type that I would not have enjoyed
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
coupla weeks ago I got a call back from a lady I had planned to call that nite.
I was gonna tell her I needed a set of plans and I'd have to get all the subs out to look in person ... as my ballpark for her planned addition was way to close to her total budget ... and my ballpark didn't include the kitchen.
she was calling to saw she was "pretty sure" she'd not be able to afford me!
I hand't even given her an idea of price ... yet thru one meeting ... she thot I was too expensive for her ... she originally got my name from the PE she called, as her town requires PE stamped drawings.
Her budget was $40K ... I ball parked a hair below ... but I always ballpark high. Thot ... just maybe ... we could redesign and maybe hit around $30K ... then she'd bump up that budget a coupla thou for a decent small kitchen ....
she told me she had called 6 comtractors!
2 and me showed up.
other two got back to her ... $10K ... and $19K! and they supposedly included the kitchen!
I spent some time and have her alot of questions to ask them ... told her get everything in writting ... and have someone review that contract.
$19K ... maybe if the guy did all the work himself and didn't feed his kids every week ... maybe ...
$10K wouldn't cover materials.
she'll get screwed ... but it was nice to get that "don't want to waste yer time" call.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Ya know what burns my a$$ about that?
Last month I finished my own Kitchen. Did everything I could myself.
Off the shelve Cabinets $2650
Counter tops that I measured, drew and set up with shop myself. $900
Floor installed by flooring company $700
Appliances $2600
Electrical changes $400 (Brother in Law)
Plumbing changes $200 parts, I did all the work.
New underlayment $150
New window $200
Trim $250
Paint $150
Sink, Faucet, disposal $450
MIsc $ 450 ( Drywall, Switches, switch covers, fan Etc, etc)
$ 8850 for a basically off the shelf Kitchen in a house I am getting ready to sell hopefully. That's with me doing everything I know how to and already owning all the tools.
So these clowns are going to make some changes that require a PE's stamp, and throw in a kitchen for $19K?
And we wonder why noone can afford company trucks for their employees.
$10K wouldn't cover materials.
Earlier this year I had a similar one. Look over the project, do a little figuring at the office, sit down with the HO and give her a ballpark of $30K as a base, and we can go up from there.
She says she has another estimate for $15K. I said that will be pretty tight considering there is $13K in tile work and windows.
But she probably got someone who does his own plumbing and electrical and all and is happy with his $500 a week.
On the positive side, I am working with a woman for an addition where my ballpark was $48K and she said OK. Then handed me another contractors estimate and said "I don't know if you can use any of this stuff." His price was $37K. Don't have the final agreement yet, but I do have the design agreement and check in the bank.
Bowz
I was asked for a ballpark for a kitchen two days ago. Told them it has been a long time since I did a kitchen for less than $40K
they are still interested
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
and .. for what it's worth ...
this lady also asked who I used for granite!
I forgot about that part till today when my electrician asked if I still wanted him to drive across town and take a look at it ..
Told him at least she was nice enough to call and let me know where we stood.
so ... a 12X 8 bump out addition ... with a full wall of windows ... 36" down to frost line ... brick exterior ... roof to cover 12x 8 addition and 12x 8 porch ... new french doors to porch ... and a kitchen with granite counter tops ...
sure ... $10K .... no problem.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
What slow down?the slowed payments to the suppliers....;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
back on track of this thread ...
one of the perks of living here ...
no big upswing in the market ...
and most likely no big downturn.
thinking the rich will always be rich.
focus on them and it'll be just fine.
time will tell.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff
I buy and sell a few antiques and your line "thinking the rich will always be rich" is what I learned early on. I was taught to always buy the better pieces becasue the money people will always have it and they will still be looking to buy.
Same goes for this business, the money people will always be looking to do work on there houses.
Doug
btw ... while I got U here ...
where North are U maybe moving someday?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Back to Iowa where I belong!
Wife is already in Chicago doing the training thing, I get to stay here an injoy one last hot azzed summer...........get the house ready for sale and tidy up some lose ends.
Like every house that I've owned, I have to go and tear into things and not finish, so here I am trying to finish up a couple bathroom remodels and cover a patio.
Hope to be out of here by Sept sometimes.
Doug
so here I am trying to finish up a couple bathroom remodels and cover a patio.
I was gonna make an offer to help by can't make that time line!
sept or Oct ... if yer still there ... cover airfare and beer and I'm there!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
sept or Oct ... if yer still there ... cover airfare and beer and I'm there!
I better be done by then or.........
Doug
'cceptThe reason the rich wil be rich - the old money people have a rule tatooed to the lining of their eyelids...
"never touch the capital"They'l spend the growth, the windfalls, and the income, but they'll not weaken their position by spending the capital downSo if the economy were top slow, they revert to smaller projects, and maintainance instead of replacements or even delay some maint as foolish as that is.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
Your right on about the "old money people" they do know how to keep it!
One other thing, unrelated to this thread - that pic that you have posted of your curved deck using some sort of man made product, I think you mentioned that the manufacturer of the product (cant remember the name of it) bought the picture from you, Is that house for sale? I get some mag that has very high end homes for sale in it and there is one for sale in Maine that I could swear has your deck on it.
They use a picture taken from the deck and looking out over the water, if I remember right yours had the same view/shot. It just caught my eye as I was scanning through the mag.
Just currious,
Doug
that pic that you have posted of your curved deck using some sort of man made product, I think you mentioned that the manufacturer of the product (cant remember the name of it) bought the picture from you, Is that house for sale? I get some mag that has very high end homes for sale in it and there is one for sale in Maine that I could swear has your deck on it.
This one?
View Image
That was my desktop for a while.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon
Thats the one, and here is the one that I seen in the add, sure looks like the same one to me.
Doug
I'm sue that's Piffin's deck...
sure I saw it in real time too....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It caught my eye the second I saw it in the mag, says its in Islesboro, Maine, so figured it could be.
House is for sale for 3.475 mil just in case your interested!
Doug
The railing is Fypon and the deking is Ipe`.
Fypon bought some photos for use in advertising. Put one in their catalouge 2-3 years ago.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have lots of other photos of that house - interior too, but I'm on my laptop now. Lighting kissed the modem in my other pc
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You have good eyes. I was at HD once and I spotted the pic that I posted. Just waiting in the check out and looked up and boom, there it was. I was with my wife and said "I know the guy who built that".Kind of an odd occurrence.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yes, it is for sale and I have heard that the dek was featured in the ad
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
DougU
Be very carefull with an answer like that, too many people will think,, Hmmm the secret to success is to raise my prices.. they'll do it and suddenly their customer base (assuming they have one) will be selecting other contractors because they will find the prices too rich for their blood..
The real secret is to do much better work than you charge for and allow your clientel to move you up the ladder..
Be very carefull because the top is the scariest place to be.. everybody wants to get there and not everybody can succceed. At the top it's extremely easy to be shoved off and there is a long fall down..
Maybe the work you do is wonderfull! You never cut corners and you really sweat bullets and make every effort to please the clients.. But fashion changes and demand for yesterdays fashion is really nominal among the wealthy..
Here in Florida, the slowdown seems to be happening. The "big guys" (large tract builders) are giving away stuff left and right to promote sales. Granite counter tops, free tile, mechanical upgrades...heck one is even mentioning something about a deal on swimming pools!
My question for anyone who wants to chime in is how do we as a very small guy stay ahead of this curve? We're doing some additional advertising and doing very small jobs ($5-10k) to keep money coming in but don't want to be one of the casualties if the market really goes bust.
Relax, the sky ain't falling yet.
You contradict yourself. The "big guys" are not your competitors. Keep doing what you do best; get better at it if you can. What's wrong with 10k jobs?
Specialize. Don't try to be a generalist. Find your niche and hone it to perfection.
Eric
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I don't know his situation as to size of company but in the case of the small contractor, I don't agree with the " Don't try to be a generalist ". If you put all your eggs solely in window replacement or kitchen/bath remodels or decks for instance, you might find yourself sitting, waiting on the next one. Being able to produce all of them competitively and well gives you three chances at the job. I think a good remodeler can do this.
this from a dumb carpenter.
Speaking of dumb carpenters, you going to the fest?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
One dumb carpenter to another.............Walt Stoppelworth is a huge proponent of specialization. Almost anything he has written in the past 2-3 years has this trademark subject contained with in. He claims that (arguably) so much of what we do in residential building/remo has become so highly specified and possibly technical, that the companies that are doing the best are the ones that specialize.
Company I work for does almost exclusivly baths and kitchens and a few basements. Those are "our" specialties. Can we do a deck, a roofing job or a replacement winow contract?? Sure we can, but not a profitably as we can do those things that we specialize in. We are generalist but only to an extent. We do alittle of this and a little of that on every project, but only within the scope of the contract. Doing the peripheral tasks as a main source of revenue is risky at best.
I will agree that a problem arises when the market for your specialty begins to slow, especially when you are hungry and you know you have the skills to complete other types of work. I say complete, but not compete. You may; and probably will find it hard to compete outside of your specialty.
A carpenter I trained with as a youngin knew it then. He would tell me to "stick to what you know and you'll never go wrong or hungry". "Course that doesn't leave much room for expanding your horizons, but the point is well taken.
Can't do the Fest. To much going on including a 500 mile bike trip end of July beg of August.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Well, on the positive side........
one less conservative in the tipi.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Mumbles and grumbles, you %(##& LIBBY;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So how do you plan on keeping the Tipi environment 'fair and balanced'?[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
gang up on Piffin.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
calvin - "I don't know his situation as to size of company but in the case of the small contractor, I don't agree with the " Don't try to be a generalist ". If you put all your eggs solely in window replacement or kitchen/bath remodels or decks for instance, you might find yourself sitting, waiting on the next one. Being able to produce all of them competitively and well gives you three chances at the job. I think a good remodeler can do this."
Since it looks like this could be a situation where we can pick sides and dig in for a fight I'm going to side with Eric and argue for the case of Specialization (but add something of a caveat).
But to confuse things a little further I think choosing to be a generalist is picking a specialty. But to call on and use the cliché I think it's apropos to say that "a jack of all trades excels at nothing" and that then becomes one of your market limitations in being a generalist. It just so happens that Eric and I are in a region where the most of the people want, recognize and appreciate what a specialist provides. It maybe different where you are in middle America but only slightly so. I am sure specialization still matters.
How does "put[ting] all your eggs solely in window replacement or kitchen/bath remodels or decks for instance, you might find yourself sitting, waiting on the next one" hurt you? Outside of putting all your eggs in a (market) basket that completely dries up and vanishes (building fallout shelters for instance) if the building & remodeling market slows down (and they, the build and remodeling market, don't necessarily move together in unison) it generally means a global slow down. There will be less window replacement as well as less K&B jobs so shouldn't the specialist be in a much better position to compete for those fewer opportunities than the generalist? They are better and more precisely equipped to do those specialty jobs and that being their specialty they should by all accounts have leaner, better designed workflows for their specifies than the generalist will so they can work more efficiently too.
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Jerrald
Arguing business practices with you is tantamount to arguing the bible with God but........
I disagree regarding the practice of specialization. I think you have to factor in location.
I can do curved stair work. I cant keep busy with it like Stan Foster can, not enough demand for it where I'm at or where I'm going to move. If I could I certainly would but.....
I can do pretty good cabinet work, trim work, both inside and out, but if I specialized I don't believe I could make it in lean times.
It just so happens that Eric and I are in a region where the most of the people want, recognize and appreciate what a specialist provides
I think you guys that live near/in big cities actually believe that.
We here in the midwest don't take a back seat to you guys when it comes to quality of workmanship. We can provide it just as well as you can and the people here want it just like the people in NYC do. We'd have to look into % to see if that's true but I have a feeling it is.
You mentioned to Piffin that quality isn't what the customer buys, its his ability to sell.(paraphrasing) That's all true but the slickest salesman in the world will still have a rep and that rep is certainly a factor in whether or not you get a job. Sometimes the sale has already happened before you pull up into there driveway!
Now I'm going to go back into my cave and keep reading this cause I can no more keep up with you on a business discussion then I can keep up with Bob W on a political discussion.
But I think Calvin is right!
Doug
I really enjoyed reading that and agree with part of it. We dont really have anything to disagree with tonight . [after two threads]<G>
Tim
DougU - "Arguing business practices with you is tantamount to arguing the bible with God but........"
Ahhhh don't say that! While after years of bungling there is a lot of stuff I learned and figured out I certainly haven't figure it all out and it's only through the discussion a debate of issues and ideas that we can really examine a learn what works. Friendly business debate is good in that it forces the parties involved to really look at and sort out their own thinking when they are challenged on a topic so I always appreciate the well explained logical contrairian views to what I think. I often say I don't have an original idea in my head. I stolen (learned) everything from all sorts of other sources.
"I disagree regarding the practice of specialization. I think you have to factor in location."
Maybe to a degree. It may not pay to be a specialist in Trope L'oeil painting in central North Dakota while that is a good specialization in the metropolitan regions of NY NE Fla and the SF bay Area for example but as I alluded to before be a Generalist is picking a specialization too. Given the market density of this area you don't hire Generalist to do a faux finish or curved stair.
"I can do curved stair work. I cant keep busy with it like Stan Foster can, not enough demand for it where I'm at or where I'm going to move. If I could I certainly would but.....
I can do pretty good cabinet work, trim work, both inside and out, but if I specialized I don't believe I could make it in lean times."
Specialization is subject to a term of degree. Do you specialize in roofing or flat roofing? In your case maybe your region wont support a curved stair specialist but since you have that in your company's skill set so why not define your specialization as "architectural or finish woodwork" so that you've put yourself out there as a source for stairs, railing, cabinets, trim and doors? So maybe people wont call you for roof and tile work since your specialized but you still are spread fairly broadly (that's actually how we have defined ourselves in fact, while we do have a specialty in stair solutions we are much more broadly defined in that we do all sorts of finish woodwork.)
"We here in the midwest don't take a back seat to you guys when it comes to quality of workmanship. We can provide it just as well as you can and the people here want it just like the people in NYC do. We'd have to look into % to see if that's true but I have a feeling it is."
There's that phrase again: "quality workmanship". That really doesn't mean anything and is such a cliché marketing expression. 99% of all contractors say they provide "quality workmanship" and probably 75% of them actually do really deliver on that promise but that is NOT what customers really care and talk about to friends. It the Customer Experience that matters. Client's Talk About Their Experience Working With You not (necessarily) the quality of your workmanship. There is "quality workmanship" everywhere. Most of the time they (our customers) don' see or understand "quality workmanship" and the point I made in my message #75947.24 was that in a market where there are plenty of contractors who provide "quality workmanship" the contractor who provides the best Customer Experience differentiate themselves from the crowd and wins the jobs.
"You mentioned to Piffin that quality isn't what the customer buys, its his ability to sell.(paraphrasing) That's all true but the slickest salesman in the world will still have a rep and that rep is certainly a factor in whether or not you get a job. Sometimes the sale has already happened before you pull up into there driveway!"
No I wasn't talking about salesmanship at all. I was talking about the EXPERIENCE a Client has working with your company. I think perhaps your just not understanding just what is meant by "Defining a Client or Customer Experience"???
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I see your point about the "experience" that you refer to. I agree!
We all remember the positive experiences that keep customers comming back or refering us to there friends.
I have a ball game to watch and I really dont have anything else that I care to challenge you on anyhow, plus or minus a few semantics I think were on the same page!
Doug
Gerald, Doug makes a good point about discussions with you about anything you respond to. You think well, order your thoughts and generally present it in a manner that people either love you or hate you.
As you can see, my generalizing in the above area falls abysmally (you know what I mean) short. But here's my take on my situation. Apply it as you will.
I have a 34 year reputation in a tri-county area. I've worked very rarely outside this 60 mile radius. All my jobs come from word of mouth, usually from previous customers. Probably half my work in a year, perhaps more, is for repeat customers. Fun too is working for the children of former customers. I built this business as a carpenter, both commercial and residential. From there I moved into whole, larger projects-becoming a contractor.
No additions anymore, but most all things carpentry, kitchens, baths, whole house remodel etc. I include in my repetoir a fine group of sub contractors that really make me what I am--more than one good guy. There are no days of that bogus excuse that it's cuz the plumber didn't show up. None. Because of this track record I can match or beat any specialist in the area in the quality of the job done. That whole experience you talk about.
cripe, the allstar game is on..........what were we talking about?
I don't know that for this one man operation another way would give me the constant work source and opportunity to grow that reputation. I could trim new construction, but then be a slave to the cut-throat pricing and market swings. I never really wanted to work a cab. shop full time, I like the interaction with people. Replacement windows and specialty jobs of that sort would bore me after awhile, I like the variety.
The original post was on weathering a lull in biz. I've found the above to have worked for me. You know the usual greeting from many people: "You busy?". Sometimes the yes answer raises eyebrows, especially during a slowdown.
It was good to read you were coming out to L.I. for the fest. Great, we're finally going to meet. You throw horseshoes?
edited for some All Star induced typo's.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 7/11/2006 10:01 pm ET by calvin
It was good to read you were coming out to L.I. for the fest. Great, we're finally going to meet.
See, Cal? You managed to con....I mean...convince both Jerrald and me to come to the fest. Now we'll have to do a seminar on the PROOF system, or square foot pricing, or some other exciting topic.....lol.
Bob
Bob, to make it a bit more confusing and interesting at the same time: Lets make it an Intensive. You guys BS while we all throw shoes. Practice up, remember I'm bringing my beautiful, "don't be checking out the cleavage", partner and wife.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I include in my repetoir a fine group of sub contractors that really make me what I am--more than one good guy. There are no days of that bogus excuse that it's cuz the plumber didn't show up. None. Because of this track record I can match or beat any specialist in the area in the quality of the job done. That whole experience you talk about.
Calvin,
You are hereby annointed a specialist. You just described your specialty to us all. You are not an "I do it all" kinda guy. You are an "I aim to please my clients" type of specialist.
Check the mirror in the am ok?
And don't pick on Piffin. I'm not too far away from Andy's and if Piffin rings me I'll come out right away to kick some azz!
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Well thank you eric, I am happy as a clam to be that kind of specialist. I make things happen.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin - "Gerald, Doug makes a good point about discussions with you about anything you respond to. You think well, order you thoughts and generally present it in a manner that people either love you or hate you."
Yeah the love/hate part is really hard to figure out, I should give up trying (to figure it out).
"I have a 34 year reputation in a tri-county area. I've worked very rarely outside this 60 mile radius. All my jobs come from word of mouth, usually from previous customers. Probably half my work in a year, perhaps more, is for repeat customers. Fun too is working for the children of former customers. I built this business as a carpenter, both commercial and residential. From there I moved into whole, larger projects-becoming a contractor."
Since I've (we've) sort of been talking about two different but related things under the context of How To Survive going back to the Customer Experience thing when you look at what you do and have done over the years do you think all that word of mouth is about your "Quality Workmanship" or the "Quality of the Experience of having Calvin do the Project"? Quality Workmanship may be in there as a subset of what people talk about when they are talking about you but I'll bet people are probably spreading word of mouth that is more about how pleasant you are to work with or how pleasant you made their remodeling experience isn't it?
As for the specialization thing while I chosen sides and stated that I am for picking a specialization we are not in total disagreement in that I have said that being a Generalist is being a particular type of specialist. Just as there are limits to what we can do as Architectural Woodworking Specialists there are limits to what a generalist can do in a specialists arena. If hypothetically we were in the same area you may very well be able to do a lot of the stairs we do and do them well but there are probably stairs and railings that we do that you might not want to even risk taking a chance with.
What I haven't mentioned at all in in this discussion yet is what is known as "business agility".
In a sense you are displaying some "business agility" in that you have a "repertoire a fine group of sub contractors that really make [you] what [you are] --more than one good guy." That's a good thing. Years ago was working on a master bath for the president of a huge company we all know of. Each day as I walked by his bed and night stand I made note of the books he was reading. One of the books I saw there was called Agile Competitors and Virtual Organizations. I went out and bought it and read it right away but I don't think I really got what "agility" was all about until six or seven years ago. Nowadays it's what I think about all the time and I think the key to modern competitiveness.(Coincidently that's where I first ever saw the book The Goal and that's what sent me on the Theory of Constraints management thinking path that I am sure you've heard me talk about from time to time too).
"There are no days of that bogus excuse that it's cuz the plumber didn't show up. None. Because of this track record I can match or beat any specialist in the area in the quality of the job done. That whole experience you talk about."
What are you saying there? That because you have quality subs you don't have to worry about them not showing up or if your subs don't show up you capable of doing their job yourself? Those are two very different things and obviously the former is a much better solution than the later.
But you are entirely right that handing a client an excuse of "well the plumber didn't show up" is bogus. It's just shooting yourself in the foot and creates a Bad Customer Experience. But how may contractors are there our there that you hear that about that while the quality of the workmanship in their physical product may still be top notch they are delivering a bad customer experience? Who gets the good word of mouth? The contractor who delivers a good or great customer experience.
"cripe, the allstar game is on..........what were we talking about?"
I watching as I'm talking (writing)! You had to know that.
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I guess we are saying the same thing differently, indeed a scary thought.
The experience is all about my business. You are right, heard it again today. Upcoming job, the woman tells me all the suppliers she has been visiting to pick out the fixtures and appliances rave about me. These are the same suppliers that I sometimes have to put the touch to, so that the sink or whatever that will be 6 wks, shows up in 2. I really go to bat for the customer, seek perfection and take what god gives me.
And no way, I don't do the work subcontracted. I don't have to. Plumber first thing wednesday means something with these guys. So does me being ready for them, not almost ready. And of course the ever popular prompt bill paying.
My business is based solely on the job experience while also including the high quality many of us have come to expect.
And since you'll be coming to the fest, warm up that horseshoe arm, we've got some business to attend to.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin - "And since you'll be coming to the fest, warm up that horseshoe arm, we've got some business to attend to."
Years ago I really wrecked my shoulder skiing and had to have major reconstructive surgery on it. So in softball I went from a cannon shot throwing outfielder to one who had to roll the balls back in to the infield so I was converted to a pitcher (obviously we're talking slow pitch softball). My only hope with horseshoes is that maybe the motion and technique might be the same otherwise I will just have to learn to live with the thought of getting beaten badly (like my Yankees) by a guy (team) from the Cleveland neck of the woods.
'Not makin' any excuses. Just saying I can take what I got comin' to me.
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Well Jerrald, in a gesture of good will and comraderie. I will ask my wife to join you at your end of the pits and I'll take on your partner (Kovacs I'm hoping so we can talk bizness).
Nothing better than getting whipped by a beautiful girl.
The big difference with slo-pitch and shoes? About 2 lbs.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
If I'm playing horseshoes, Joyce and Jerrald better be wearing shinguards...lol.
It's been quite a while since I played, but I'm heading to a barbeque at my brother's this weekend so I'll practice there. I'll let you know on Monday how many bruised shins I caused with my aim (or lack thereof).
Bob
Geez, to the best of my knowledge I don't think I've ever played horseshoes.
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Spoken like a true shark......"Gee, I don't think I've ever actually played pool before...so all I've gotta do is hit the white ball with the long stick and make the other balls go into the holes? OK, I'll give it a try....."..........lol
Bob
One thing I know for sure though is if I had both arms cut off and had to throw the horseshoes with my teeth I wouldn't let myself lose to you!!!
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Ouch man- that hurt. Sounds like you're gonna abuse a poor, amatuer horseshoe player like me just to keep your pride.......
Bob
I'm a washed up athletic has been, over weight, and over 50 but I guess I still have that competive spirit.
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I'm a washed up athletic has been
Just remember- you said it. I'm just gonna help you prove it.... ;)
And I thought you two goofballs were on the same team.
This is a team sport, no singles in the party pavillion.
Lets try to get it together.
Andy, be ready.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Major thread hijack in progress. Maybe no one wants to talk about an actual slowdown?
Par for the course david, a couple good answers and the rest filled in with meaningless drivel.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Yep, hi-jacked!!!! Need a Homeland Security Office patroling here ;)
OK, so after all that, any additional thoughts on a slow down? Becuase whether anyone wants to admit it or not, its happening here in Florida. The big guys are feeling it.
Mike
any additional thoughts on a slow down?
Couple ideas, I don't know if they would apply to you. Your small $10K projects are my medium sized projects.
1. Look for the upsell on a project. Example: Couple weeks ago I got a call for a grab bar in a shower. When I looked at it, "yes we can put one there. but if you are having trouble in the shower, maybe we should look at putting one next to the toilet also."
"OK let's do that too"
So yesterday I put the two bars in. I also stuck a few spare bars in the truck. While I am putting the first two in the son asks if I can tighten up the paper holder in the other bathroom. after looking at it, "Yes, I can tighten that. But it looks to me like it is loose because your mother is using it as a grab bar. I have another one in the truck, should I put it in here?" "Yes, that would be great"
2. when I am slow, I stay more aware of taking on a project that looks like it may become a "tar baby". remember the old Disney movie about Briar Rabbit? No matter how hard he struggled he got more and more stuck.
3. I don't know if you have the JLC CD, or maybe have online access to it, but the September '94 JLC had an article titled "Surviving Lean Times"
Bowz
I've been talking about slowdowns since Clinton was in office. The topic just doesn't do it for me anymore.
Slowdowns make you broke.
blue
Eric,
Granted there is nothing wrong with $10k jobs but we're builders and trying to do more homes and commercial buildings. Don't want to sound greedy but I want to make more money. I've been doing the small jobs for 20 years and haven't made enough to be comfortable yet.
Mike
"Don't want to sound greedy but I want to make more money. I've been doing the small jobs for 20 years and haven't made enough to be comfortable yet."
If the work is not there, you won't be able to make money doing it. Now is the time to be small. You might not like it but you can do it and the big guys can't. If you want to survive, you have to adapt. Be glad that you can.
This is a time to work on your reputation and your network. Small jobs are great at this. They put you in contact with more people and more people see and hear about your work. Just make sure that they are saying good things about it.
Good point! Those "Big Guys" are chewing up their subs and spiytting them out like watermelon seeds, shortchanging them to manage their cash flows.So the subs are taking shortcuts to get the job done cheap as possible. All that means they are creating aftermarket repair and improvement work for the good guys
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin nailed it. If you have that reputation already you'll be alright, if not, tighten your belt and hang on. And then go after that rep.
We just went through a real downturn up here, I mean from Thanksgiving last year till Easter we had squat to do. Little projects here and there but no steady stuff at all. I was beginning to wonder if I was just kidding myself about my network,advertising , business model, etc. Then for no apparent reason we landed three jobs bing,bing,bing and now we just are swamped.
The lesson I took from it is keep throwin' sh#t against the wall and eventually some of it will stick.
The other thing it forced me to do was really take a hard look at all expenditures and cut anything that wasn't contributing directly to the bottom line. DON'T cut advertising, DO track your advertising agressivley to see what works the best and then put your money there. Give every form of advertising at least 6 months before you make any kind of final evaluation, a year is better.
Oak River Mike,
I'm not a contractor but used one on an addition on our house last year. In the end it turned out OK, but it was far too painful than it needed to be and I spent more time project managing the job than my contractor did. The company we chose was the lowest price, but based on the going $/sf and the items I could easily back out and compare, it didn't seem too low.
I might have easily chosen one of the other two guys if they had been able to sell me on why they were better than anyone else, but they just quoted me a price. I could have been swayed if they had said "I know our price is higher and I'll tell you why .... I have the best trained employees that consistently turn out high quality work - let me give you some references you can talk to... I develop a detailed project schedule for every job that details exactly when each major item needs to be ordered to ensure we meet the quoted schedule. I've run background checks on all my employees and subs, they're courteous and will always leave the job site clean... Our quote includes x, y, and z with higher quality fixtures - do the other quotes you got include these items?
Just some examples. From the homeowner perspective, those kinds of points would make me think long and hard. When people can understand the value of what you're providing, they will be much more likely to buy it.
Good Luck.
Terry
ok.. i just read all 80 posts..
there are a couple of things that struck me as i read them..
first, i've always considered our company to be generalists .. some is for strict business reasons.. some for personal reasons
i've never been analyzed for disorders , but i've often suspected that i'm ADD ( as some of us have discussed before )... ie: i get bored and itch to move on
i try to play to that as a strength.. and specialization would not be playing that card..
my goal is to keep our organization working and profitable...
doing some things at a loss is not profitable, but it happens.. and if it also helps with the cash flow, that is often the most important thing in this business... cash flows allows you to keep your organization intact and ready to jump on the real opportunity that comes knocking.. running on cash flow for a short time works... trying to survive on cash flow is a slow death.. you have to make a profit to stay..
but you don't have to make a profit every time..
the problem is in trying to compete with other builders/ contactors/ specialists... in a downturn the competition will just keep racheting down the price and the rate...
so my goal is to never compete... my goal is to sell the job at my price
i don't really strive for excellence.. i strive for consistency and delivering a product and job that satisfys the customer or exceeds their expectations...
there are lots of "specialists" out there working who in spite of specialization, do not deliver a good product or a good experience to the customer... even as "generalists" i can deliver a good job that is going to exceed the average level of performance... because we care, and because we try
we can paint.. but we're not the best painters or the most efficient
we can tape...but.....
we can frame... but
we can side... we can roof
we can trim... we can design.... install kitchens and laminate..
design and build anything... or to be honest .. design and build almost anything people call us about
this is our 4th decade in business for ourselves... '70's. '80's . '90's and now the '00's ( pronounced uht -oh )
every decade we've survived a major downturn in business.. guess what's comming ?
when the phone rings, i'll analyze the job and the customer... can we do it ? can we satisfy this customer ? can we make a profit ?
three out of three ain't bad
Damn, Mike! I really like that business philosophy.
When our phone rings (which I hope it will), I'm going to try to approach it with what you've said as some of those hit close to home...except the ADD part. ;)
Mike
Great post.
"so my goal is to never compete..." Mike Smith
Me too although I dont do what he is doing .
Thats in short is what I was posting about earliar.
By convience like a package store . Not because its cheap.
By being the only pink elephant and they want one . Theres no competition.
A trend that doesnt have enough setters.
I always used to say this too . Theres not any difference in the work whether you are standing in a residentail or commercial building but the scenery certainly changes.
Now this is just for fun : Its azz deep to a giraff in snow and its -10 below zero out side . DW has made her demands its cold inside and to do somthing about it . NOW would be good for her. The unit is doing all it can do so you look at the fire stove but remember you used all the wood . You cant cut any in this weather so you are at the mercy of some wood cutter that has some stock piled and really wondering if he will even deliver it . How much customer experience are you looking for here ?
Tim
Now Ill tell you a true story;
I just finished a remodel of a rental. I know that we are short on houses for rent in this area. This house has went 12 years for me with out a hitch. I paid 32,000 for it at the court house sq and just cleaned it up. Since then the interrest fell and now its up. The prices on homes have went up 30 somthing percent in the last year . I rented the house in the beginning for 400 for three years. Then 450 till now. The price of new homes now have reflected the labor increase and the material increases and now the higher interrest rates. I also knew that .
I was taking applications for 500 but an offer to rent it now for 550 cash with out a credit check and a higher deposit . In the week it was advertized I logged 34 calls . I could have rented it 8 times before I shut it off and wrote a lease . It now has a years lease with 550 per month attached . The renters have paid the property down to around 7,000 pay off. The property is worth 75,000 today. Still short of renting for 1 percent of worth so that shows that the prices have not quit climbing up. Some day it will level out and rent for its worth.
Thats one way of making it in slow times with out customer experience being figgured. I often wonder if the real time is logged for all this customer satisfaction. Thats why Im not into it .
Heres another reason why;
For the price of having a house built in the last three years the customer could make more than the GC if they sold it .
I hope you are making a killing at it working for people but the figgures have said build or buy to sell to me for the last few years.
Tim
At the end of my jobs, I want the customer to not only have what they were looking for at the beginning, but to feel like they were treated like someone specialall thru the process. To choose my customers I want people who somehow show themselves to be able to appreciate things like that. They know what characteristics like gratitude are. Rude, impatient people are hard to eak a profit out of.I can do almost anything, like you said, but I think what you brought to my mind is that I spend more effort choosing my customers than I do choosing my jobs.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
While most of my income comes from trim, when that slows down, and it always does for a while, I will generally do anything that is carpentry/building related...but, I won't do it for just anybody. I work with people that appreciate what I do, and in turn, I try to make them feel like they are the most important people in my world...and, at the time, they really are...I tend to enjoy slow downs, I must be ADD also, because doing the same thing all the time drives me nuts, the slow downs bring diversity: decks, siding, furniture, flooring, roofing, repairing, restoring, renovating, working on my own place...guess they don't call us general contractors for nothing<G> I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
"make them feel like they are the most important people in my world...and, at the time, they really are..."There ya go
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've survived a long time <G> I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head