Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 02, 1999 01:14am | #1

   *
   Robert

   Besides the rafter tables, and scales in 8ths, 10ths, 12ths, 16ths and 100ths there are Octagon scales, Brace Measure and Essex Board Measure for timber sizing.

   There are books written on this very topic. My original Stanley rafter square came with one 54 pages long (I just looked) in pamphlet style, another, that I inherited from my dad, is called "Steel Square and its Uses" published by the Geographical Publishing Co.Chicago, 1941 (485 pages long). . . other guys here use other books. . . go to your library.

   Many carps(grumpy or otherwise) have graduated to using special calculators (Construction Master)for the rafter functions. Check the archives here at breaktime, there was a thread back in the winter started by Brisketbean about uses for rafter Squares.

   -pm

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 02, 1999 04:11am | #2

   *This may be a bit off topic, but one of my goals in life is not to end up as a grumpy old man!

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 02, 1999 06:09am | #3

   *GRUMPY!!!F**k You!!!I'm not grumpy, I'm just old.OLD!!!F**k You!!!I'm not old, I'm just experienced.I think, I'm getting to old to remember....OLD!!!F**k You!!!Did I do that already?My memory fails me...I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I've just been so grumpy lately...GRUMPY!!!...................I'm sorry.....the question was framing squares?Yes, young man, it's all there on the square if you buy the right one.But I can't remember it all...I guess I'm getting old...OLD!!!.........................................Ed. (that's Mr. Ed to you young bucks) Williams

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 02, 1999 06:21am | #4

   *'Scuse me sir? Are these yer f**kin teeth I just stepped on? I tried to avoid them but that fat assed carpenter over there swearin at the f**kin door jamb wouldn't get outa my f**kin way, so I had to step over here and I didn't notice these f**kin things lyin in the f**kin way!!

2. 
   Wayne_D._Muck | Jul 07, 1999 09:12am | #5

   *
   Robert,

   I agree with Patrick M. Get yourself a good book on the square and it's uses. Once you learn how to use one properly and know what all the tables are for, you'll always be able to get the work done even when the drop the calculator off the roof or the batteries die. Just for general information...I always step off my rafters and check myself with a calculaor.

   Wayne

1. 
   robert_sparks | Jul 07, 1999 10:47am | #6

   *Damm, now that makes yearn for the old days with Buddy. I have several old carpentry text books that try to explain the uses of the square. Rafter length I understand(I'm usually faster than the guy with the $70.00 construction master). I'm really interested in the degree table on the tounge of my old Stanley and the brace table on the back of the blade. Any one who knows how to use these, or where to find an old instruction book that originally came with the square, please help. Thanks,Rob

3. 
   Guest_ | Jul 08, 1999 02:05am | #7

   *
   http://www.stanleyworks.com

4. 
   max | Jul 12, 1999 08:25am | #9

   *
   My mentor was a mean old son of a bitch named Red Davies. He was so effin' mean and tough he made John Wayne look like Boy George. My second day on the job he asked me for my plumb bob and when I couldn't produce one he told me not to come back to work until I had one and knew how to use it.
   In a state of extreme panic (I had a brand new beautiful wife with the spending habits of someone who should be married to a lawyer) I rushed out to the hardware store and the library.The next day armed with a new "bob" and theoretical knowledge, I embarked upon a scary and painful apprenticeship.
   I am now one of the best carpenters that I know. I have the hard won skills , but have lost the wife. I no longer know the difference between the front and back of a framing square (I use a const. master IV) or the fever of the passions of youth, but I have no regrets and would be stupid enough to do the whole thing over again.

   I say screw the framing square and get yourself a good construction calculator and a "big" (12") speed square. There is no sense in being a anachronistic weirdo in a vain attempt to impress others or yourself with arcane knowledge when results are what get you noticed.

5. 
   Guest_ | Jul 12, 1999 06:50pm | #10

   *
   I like the construction master for rafters because it eliminates the incrematal creep errors that stepping off can introduce. That said, it's good to be able to step 'em off if the battieries die, but if for some reason I don't have the calculator I usually just calculate the entire length using a squared plus b squared = c squared to eliminate inaccuracies of stepping off.

   Steve

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 13, 1999 06:31am | #11

   *Sorry folks I have worked for the oldest crabbest, meanest old carpenters that ever walked the face of the earth. These are/were people who would tell you that the root of all sin is plywood and most of them can tell you about how a "skill saw" changed the way things were done. We won't even start about neck tie wearing carpenters and hand saws and sharping stones and yankee screw drivers and such. When it comes to framing squares I still like a full size and with framing tables. When can find them a stainless one, is the holy grail(no wear or hard to read numbers)

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 13, 1999 08:24am | #12

   *If you want to be a purist dont use a construction master or framing square. All is derived from Mr. Pythagreans therom (a2plusb2=c2) Plus a few right triangle rules. Trouble is are you going to manually calculate the square root of c or are you going to use square root tables or a calculator. Either way to work efficiently you must use some sort of calculator or tables be it on your square or calculator. Of course theres always the method of measuring from top of your ridge to the center of your birdsmouth after setting your ridge using a plumbob to a chalkline on the floor below. Talk about 100 ways to skin a cat and still have hide and meat....What works for you is the best.....but i would not change either my framing square or my construction master for one of those speedo squares

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 09, 1999 01:18am | #8

   *Brian,That is about the most sensible post I've read on a roof framing thread. Although I prefer the big speed square. It also came with a book and sometimes you just have to dance with the one who brought you.JonCP.S. I have to admit that this little "Drawingboard" cad program has really ruined me. Just draw it to scale in about the time you could punch the numbers in, couple mouse clicks wherever you want dimensions (to .001 in.), and hit the print button.

6. 
   robert_sparks | Jul 16, 1999 02:53am | #13

   *
   I have a Stanley big 12, for anything more than laying out stairs, its a useless toy. Have you ever tried to use one of these to lay out bastard hip and valley cuts on 2x12's? Theres not enough square there. As for impressing others, I could care less, I've been in the trades long enough not to tell people what I can do, I keep my mouth shut and show them. Im interested in the square for my own knowledge, as a peice of history, and for the satisfaction that comes from learning something difficult and the being able to do it compently.

   Thanks,

   Rob

1. 
   Brian_Harding | Jul 18, 1999 08:11pm | #14

   *I agree that the Framing Square is the most accurate to achieve the degree of plumb or level cuts, but I would have to say that stepping off a rafter is a possibility of human error. A more accurate way to achieve length of a rafter is by pythagorean or other such means I use my own derived ratios. any questions ask at [email protected]

1. 
   max | Jul 19, 1999 08:00am | #15

   *If you really want to know more about your framing square, look in Fine Homebuilding issue #111, Sept. 1997, page 96. This is a good inclusive article.By the way I know how to use a framing square and use them, it's just that I like the speed square for it's streamlined method of finding an angle. A good use for a out of square alum. framing square is to cut off the blade (the big,wide arm) and use it to beat apprentices when they bring back the wrong kind of donuts or beer.

7. 
   Guest_ | Jul 21, 1999 05:47am | #16

   *
   Hello once again to all my old friends here in this forum. It's been a while. I see the same subjects are making a comeback, with new participants, however.

   I too apprenticed under an ill tempered carpenter. He was an ex marine platoon leader to boot. But basically he was still a good guy.

   I started out mean, and hide a mean streak. It's easier on the blood pressure. Being tough is hard work!

   Anyways, the tables that you want to learn about are basically outdated, and useless, but if you must then go and research a book ot two. You should be doing that anyways, and that type of info is usually present in general carpentry books.

   I used to know what all those goofy tables meant, but long ago forgot. It is easier to know how to figure the stuff, than to try to fit your needs to another man's tables. If I wrote the tables', then I'd remember ehat/how they work. I do remember that dividers are used witht he octogonscale. Whoopdee doopdee!

   I have a more accurate formula for calculating the sides on an octogon.

   Regarding the use of the slow, oops I mean speed square....get a life!!!

   These things are extremely dangerous! They will do more to retard a young carpenter's carreer than anything that I know of, besides pot!

   The basic framing square is not all that complicated. After all, it is basically the base unit of most rafters. think about it: the architect gives you a unit rise of 10 and 12, and you have a tool that will allow you to mark the 10 and 12 numbers, then connect the dots. Nothing is more basic.

   Most younsters use the speed square to mark square lines on studs and such! Give me a break! If you can't cut a square stud without a line on your third attempt (with a sharp saw), GET OUT OF THE TRADE! You will evetually be able to cut any pitch by eye, if you try it a few times.

   The stepping off method is indeed useful. I rarely step off more than one step or two, but use the basic step off method for 90% of my exterior trim work. A speedsquare is impossible to work in the same manner, I think. I am reasonable sure. The two foot blade makes the tool incrementaly more accurate,and for good pine work on rough sawn 1 x 12, there is no equal! Show me how you can cut a 4 /12 shed roof rafter layed onto a 7/12 /12 roof with a speed square! the top cut would be quite a challenge for a 24" blade, and the speed square has no chance! (Ed. note: blue would never actually mark that, he'd be whacking and stacking)

   Anyways, throw out those construction masters too. Just learn to calculate the total lengths by adding the square of the two total legs, and you will be faster in the long run, in a lot of cases.

   I always use my memory, and demand a seperate memory clear button. Normal pitches are easy to remember. For instance, the hypotenuse of a 10 /12 roof is entered on my calculator by entering 244 followed by the sq rt symbol, a total of four presses! its actually faster than entering 15.62, and will be more accurate. The other hypotenuses are easy to remember, once you figure them once on the job.

   Anyways, get rid of them slow, oops speed squares, and spend some quality time with your framing square. you'll be happy you did!

   Blue

8. 
   Rob_Sparks | Jul 22, 1999 05:19am | #17

   *
   Wow, and I thought I disliked speed squares. Blue, it really is good to see you back. You're allways at the very least entertaining. I'm mostly interested in the square's obscure tables as history. However, I would be interested in your personal formulas for rafters, Im looking for a quicker way to figure them.

   thanks,
   Rob

9. 
   robert_sparks | Jul 22, 1999 03:23pm | #18

   *
   About eight years ago I had the pleasure to work with a real old timer. He was bad tempered and hard to get along with, but he tought me a lot. One of the things he tought me was that real carpenters use a framing square to figure rafters and stairs. By force of fear, I learned this part of the square pretty well. However, I remember him saying something about 777 different cuts being possible using it. I have come across very few people who still use a square for rafters and noone who knows about the less common tables on it. If you can help me with the older tables, I would be grateful. (By the way, by tables, I mean the ones engraved on the square, not the book that comes with a swanson square)

10. 
    Guest_ | Jul 22, 1999 03:23pm | #19

    *
    Laughing out loud ed...