How come the Police, FBI, Secret Service, CIA, CTU, (Maybe not the CTU), NSA, DEA, Park Police, Border Patrol, Port Police, Mall Cop, Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard, and Sheriff all need a search warrant to enter your house, but the building inspector can walk right in unannounced and ask, “What’s going on?”
We started a little selective demo on a remodel to check where some loads were bearing so we could draw up the plans and the inspector barges in threatening $3000.00 in fines for working without a permit. I explained we were looking for load paths in the walls since we were going to remove most of the interior partition walls of the house and this needed to be done to draw the plans.
He said fine I will warn you this time. I said no you won’t, you are going to ticket me and I’ll explain it to the judge and you will explain coming into this house without a warrant. He said he could go in any structure any time anywhere. I let it drop realizing I had an egomaniac and a liar in front of me. He wrote a stop work order until we got a demo permit.
Any other inspectors gone wild out there?
Constructing in metric…
every inch of the way.
Replies
Why don't you just get the demo permit and spend time worrying about better things? Inspectors go around trying to find unpermitted work, and he found you doing some. Most of us in the business wish inspectors would do more of that, along with the work comp folks and the IRS auditors.
> Inspectors go around trying to find unpermitted work, ....
The slam dunk way to do that would be to follow big loads home from Lowe's and HD. ;-)
-- J.S.
LOL... that was pretty good. :)View Image
Well John; Around here they certainly do that, They will often follow cabinet delivery trucks and also in some subdivisions they pay bounties to the garbage men for tips. Not just Lowes and Home Depot either. I had one walk into my job site in an EXTREMELY picky clients home with two inches of mud on his shoes... He didn't knock either and left tracks all the way up the stairs before I saw him... he was there because he wanted to check out a house down the street and needed a legal excuse to be in the area... I hope that he steps on a nail and gets pseudomonas!
We were still in the design phase of the project. The client paid us to do a feasability study of removing many load bearing walls and replacing them with beams. We had to tear out sheetrock in the peak of a cathedral ceiling to see how it was framed. Ridge? no ridge, size of rafters, etc... In other words I don't need no stinkn' demo permit. The guy was hard headed as they come.
There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. This inspector made his call by the letter of the law full well knowing we were doing the work so we could come up with an accurate set of plans which my client was paying for. I had not contracted the renovation yet as I did not know what the scope of work was. There has to be a spirit of working together with these guys. I got none of that from him. I'm a professional and I like to be treated that way.
I also wish inspectors would inspect instead of put in a quick guest appearance sign the card and take off. It's just a big tax game,the whole inspection process. They want fees for plan review, fees to inspect, and then the tax assesor comes around after you finish to raise the tax rate on the house.
I live atround zero of where Hugo came through in 89. They should check nailing patterns on roof and wall sheathing, but they never do. I found 4x8 sheets of 1/2" roof decking with four nails in it after Hugo. It went on then and I know it's going on now. God help us if we have another Hugo.Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
I'm curious, do they really have the authority to just enter your house?
The town I grew up in had inspectors that were notorious for going around to rental property and coning there way in the door. Of course most the tenants would just open up and let them in.
The inspectors didn't have the right to enter on there own, they had to be let in.
Doug
Edited 6/16/2006 6:27 pm ET by DougU
holy hammer, was teh door left open? It ani't breaking and enterring, just enterring if teh door is open. Curious.
I am with you, I doubt it is legal for an inspector to just open the door and walk in.
Suppose he suspects me of remodeling my basement. Can he just walk in and come on down stairs? I my house that is a good way to get killed.
In New York they can't go in without permission of either the owner or tennant.
here they are not allowed to enter the building with out permission.
But we also do not need a permit to remove drywall
I don't take kindly to tresspasser myself and I'd probably be inclined to file a complaint against any building inspector that walked in without permission. I might be inclined to bust his azz right there in the living room if he didnt' turn and sprint out.
and I'm a peaceful person.
I've got a standard line. "I'm asking you to immediately leave these premises. If you don't immediately turn around and leave the site, I'm going to call the police and have you arrested for tresspassing". That statement is usually reserved for those that we fire and they want to stand around and jawbone, but it would work equally well for a tresspassing building inspector.
Up to now, we've always had civil rights in our country and one of them prohibits unlawful entry. Building inspectors do not have the right to enter occupied homes without permission. If they don't know that, they should be informed and they also should be stopped.
blue
We post guards on each end of the street we are building on, our guards are relatives of Pancho Via.......no enquentro los inspectores en todos los lugares que fabricar las casas.
Will there be pictures of that in your photo thread?
jezs
Will there be pictures of that in your photo thread?
Jezs. See pic.
You may not be in OSHA compliance with that chair. If he fires that canon off from that decrepit twig seat, he'll end up on his back. Then you'll have Labor and Industries up your .....
Safety First
D.
You may not be in OSHA compliance with that chair. If he fires that canon off from that decrepit twig seat, he'll end up on his back. Then you'll have Labor and Industries up your .....
These are relatives of Pancho Villa, my relatives were moonshiners in Tennessee, and the first Nascar car owners and drivers. OSHA / Labor and Industries will have to catch me.
It is the wild wild west down here......along with Pancho's kin, and Texsized Tennesse Hillbillies, we got young pretty girls selling dirt from a converted mobile home in their pajamas. (see previous post).
What previous post?
Rock the Tipi!
My bad. The previous post is in "New Home Texas Style" (rural Texas dirt vendor office manager in her pajamas).
Do your homework and reading assignments G. : - )
ALright. I remember reading that in there now. I just didn't connect the two. My inability to mind read over the internet is one of my short comings.
Rock the Tipi!
Yes, I remember when my comprehension and recall were not so good....take notes when you read Rasta Honkie. : - )
Badges! Badges! I DON'T GOT TO SHOW YOU NO STINKING BADGES!
the building inspector got my boss for something at his house. wrote him a stop work ticket. my boss went inside got his PE stamp, stamp the ticket, told him get off his property. here a PE stamp overrides building inspectors.
Are you sure about that, Brownbagg? Here in CA, a PE can design, stamp, and sign off on something non-conforming but it still has to be approved by the building department PE's. The inspector then checks that the work complies with the approved plans - even if it isn't actually "to code".
We also have to have the correct license to stamp and sign. I'm a licensed mechanical engineer but most of my work over the last 20 yrs has been civil/structural. I can do the design, but I have to get a civil/structural licensed engineer to stamp and sign.
Because the county excepts no responsibilty and the PE is liabile.
"Are you sure about that, Brownbagg? Here in CA, a PE can design, stamp, and sign off on something non-conforming but it still has to be approved by the building department PE's. The inspector then checks that the work complies with the approved plans - even if it isn't actually "to code"."
You are correct . The final decision after review is the head BI. He or she also gets the rest to approve it as the fire chief , utilities manager, city engineer, and his own plan review. It can be sent back to planning and zoning if its out side their guidelines. We often got prelimaries that didnt coincide with the final draft often changing it. Also for some reason a PEs stamp doesnt rule . I always thought it should as far as the building but they made many mistakes often in handicap guidelines to just mention one area. They missed those more than any of the others and at different times nearly all of them. They are kind of spunky about being corrected. My question to them was they are the one with the stamp , why didnt they get it right the first time ?
Tim
The PE stamp doesn't "rule" because we're human too. In theory, those boxes on drawings (Drawn By, Reviewed By, and Approved By) mean that three sets of eyes checked things before they got to the PE. That stamp and signature is theoretically the fourth check and the PE has the liability if it isn't right.
The real world is a whole 'nuther critter, however - lol. In my last telecom job, I designed the conduit systems to get fiber optic cable down the streets. All the local jurisdictions require that a Civil PE stamp and sign the drawings so I couldn't stamp and sign my own designs. The civil engineer we had knew nothing about telecommunications so I put a disclaimer on all the drawings stating that the stamp was only applicable to the "Civil Engineering sections" of the design. Since there were no "Civil Engineering sections", the stamp was essentially meaningless - lol.
In a couple of cases, I met with the engineer and inspector and we worked out how the job should be done before I even started drawing.
I'm going to post a guard in the house. There's a six foot long alligator in the pond out back. I'm going to lure him in the house with a chicken and leave him there. Then I'll park my work truck out front for a few days with the front door unlocked. That'll keep out them pesky varmit inspectors! ;-)Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
I'm going to post a guard in the house. There's a six foot long alligator in the pond out back. I'm going to lure him in the house with a chicken and leave him there. Then I'll park my work truck out front for a few days with the front door unlocked. That'll keep out them pesky varmit inspectors! ;-)
Now you are talking the good ole boy southern boy country ways, O Carolina son. : - )
A Building Inspector has the right to enter any permitted job within his jursdiction. When you got your permit you agreed to allow entry during any reasonable time.
Did the OP need a demo permit? Who knows- depends om the extent of the demo and if any local codes.
How in the world did the inspector find out about this if it is interior work? Huge dumpster out front? Seems to me there might be more to the story.
Most inspectors seem to be reasonable. Exploratory demo seems to be a gray area of the code. (at least with the info presented by the op). Treat the inspector with respect and you will probably get it in return. Get on an ego trip and try to kick his azz and you will find he wears bigger boots than you do.
Check out chapter 1 of the IRC, it's pretty clear what duties and authority the inspector has.
"Check out chapter 1 of the IRC, it's pretty clear what duties and authority the inspector has. "Specially R104.6 which say that he needs to get permission to enter occupied property.
No code book at home. You are correct.
"Specially R104.6 which say that he needs to get permission to enter occupied property."
I believe I mentioned that .
Im not in that discussion because only one party can be heard from at this point . I dont know how you can come to any meaningful solutions either but with that said ;
I dont really believe a guy walked right through a shut door of a home that was occupied. But if he did he was nuts for doing it . On the ohter hand Ive walked up to several open doors and walked in where it was clear by pick ups , vans , opened for viewing by tool boxes being open and maybe hearing a skill saw running or a compressor that work was in progress. Most of those times it was a permitted job. I didnt really have the time to do that sort of investigative work as my plate was full. However I did catch several working out side in plain veiwing from the road. Two times I saw an HVAC van parked out side and it was the people I was "looking " for and knocked on the door. There was a plumber I never did catch but I would have went out of my way for him after he lied to me . Once an inspector gets whizzed off he may go out of his way but walking through a shut door of a residence is suicide to his job. I would not have had a good answer to that one if the door was shut. It might be his job .
Tim
You may be right but in my own house with no work being done No one has the right to enter my home , I dont believe the police can without a warrent or signs of a crime.
Have you noticed that the number of people with some type of badge or certificate, a radio, an official vehicle, and some type of government connection, from local to national, is increasing? I suppose that theoretically, all of these folks could get in your house since they represent the government, which is representing the greater good.
I envision a small wood scrap fire in my back yard where the grandkids are playing. One of the kids falls gets a boo-boo on the knee, initiating screaming. The social services folks show up to protect the child. The fire inspector shows up because of the smoke. The building inspector shows up because he hears the radio call concerning the scrap wood. The cops show up because of all the commotion. The crash response unit from the fire department shows too, being a first responder. The dog jumps the fence to get out, followed quickly by the humane officer's appearance. The neighbors jump into my yard to help by performing citizens' arrests. Homeland security shows up with the FBI and FEMA because of the large, unpermitted gathering. Like me, they all have a right to be there. I quietly exit with my family and start looking for a home in the woods, but it is too late.
I feel the same way Sasquatch
blue
Your story is quite good. You should be a writer.
But this part, "start looking for a home in the woods," is far more telling.
Years ago, I bought 10 acres out in the woods (now the suburbs) because I wanted the room. These 10 were in a rather undeveloped township NW of Detroit as well as affordable. The access was via a private road (no maintenance agreement back then, nor was the township interested in doing anything to make conditions better) where if you wanted to get in or out, you took your chances. So me and my Kubota became a regular fixture on the road.
After 15 years, it got kinda boring with me doing the only work on the thing (not to mention my attorney telling me to stop that crap real quick before someone began to claim that I was assuming complete responsibility should it not be done properly or soon enough following a washout). There were another 20 lots and homes serviced by this road, so several of us tried to get the others to participate. Most did.
But several were absolute kooks. I mean certifiable. After a bit of putting two and two together, these people moved out there because they couldn't get along with others. So they go start looking for a home in the woods.
After development pushes closer, they get weirder.
So, all of this talk about resistance to the compliance officers tells me more about someone's ability to get along in this world.
Edited 6/18/2006 6:25 pm ET by peteshlagor
http://www.missingpeople.net/on_willys_pig_farm.htmI think before you start to believe in the absolute efficiency and perfection of the porcine processing and disposal system, you might want to read up on the time, effort, and costs that the law and court system put into getting the evidence to prosecute the above ratbag. Excuse me. He hasn't had his day (years) in court yet, so I'll correct myself and say, alleged ratbag.
If you need a demo permit, you need a demo permit. You can't argue with that.
Most of them are cheese heads. But you have to have your ducks in a row before you take them on.
Rock the Tipi!
As a resident of Wisconsin, I resent you calling inspectors 'cheeseheads'. We are not all inspectors here but apparently, due to some freakin' marketing genius, we are all cheeseheads.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
You know. When I hit post on that I figured I would offend the whole state. But then I was too lazy to change it to jackazzes.
Sorry my bad. Come to the Tipi I'll buy you a beer.
Rock the Tipi!
Edited 6/18/2006 10:50 am ET by Gunner
When one can file suit against any township, And then they could hold their BI's responsible for their actions out in the field. Out my way they are just not nice people. I hate that!!!
-Lou
"Any other inspectors gone wild out there?"
As a matter of fact yes . It says right there in the code book a BI can walk right in any of them. The codes are also law. He wasnt lieing to you .
The chief of police and I had the same conversation one day. He said you can walk right in but we cant even follow you if you want back up. Only way we can enter is a warrant or permission. And not yopur permission either .
Tim
http://www.melbourneflorida.org/code/inspection.htm" The Building Official shall examine or cause to be examined all buildings and structures for which a permit has been issued to enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish or change the occupancy thereof. Inspection of all buildings and structures shall be performed using scheduled periodic inspections during construction and a final inspection upon completion of the work for which a permit was issued. A record shall be generated of every such examination and inspection and of all violations of the City Building code, and the corrections or disposition of such violations.... NOTE: INSPECTION OF SINGLE-FAMILY STRUCTURES
Inspector must request permission to enter structure.
Inspector shall not enter any enclosed yard fence without permission to enter.
If Inspector is presented with the situation where the house appears open but no one answers front door, Inspector shall not go around to rear of house to obtain permission to enter.
If Inspector has door answered by a minor, the Inspector shall not enter structure without an adult present.
Inspectors are instructed to use "attempted to make inspection" cards if permission to enter is not given by an adult."http://www.linowes-law.com/documents/enforcement.cfm"Administrative Searches and Inspections by Municipal Code Enforcement Officers...
Some municipal codes appear by their plain language to grant officers broad power to enter any building deemed necessary by the code enforcement officer and to enter with or without permission from the occupant/owner for the purpose of enforcing ordinances; however, in the absence of a bona fide emergency, the officer must first obtain a warrant unless the appropriate person consents to the inspection....If a property owner or manager consents to an inspection and then revokes that consent, the code enforcement officer must immediately vacate the premises. Of course, any information gleaned by the officer while validly on the property may be used against the violator in a citation or in providing probable cause to obtain a warrant to return for further inspection....Generally an inspection conducted under an emergency or exigent situation, with proper consent or from a public vantage point does not require a warrant; however, in the event none of these conditions exist, a code enforcement officer must obtain an administrative search warrant from a judge or magistrate if the occupant refuses to cooperate."2000 IRCSays that if a building is occupied that the BI has to request entry and if denied then can use the remieds provided by law (search warrant).http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=387&invol=523This is a supreme court ruling. It is about "housing code" inspections for rental property." 1. The Fourth Amendment bars prosecution of a person who has refused to permit a warrantless code-enforcement inspection of his personal residence. Frank v. Maryland, supra, pro tanto overruled. Pp. 528-534. (a) The basic purpose of the Fourth Amendment, which is enforceable against the States through the Fourteenth, through its prohibition of "unreasonable" searches and seizures is to safeguard the privacy and security of individuals against arbitrary invasions by governmental officials. P. 528. (b) With certain carefully defined exceptions, an unconsented warrantless search of private property is "unreasonable." Pp. 528-529. (c) Contrary to the assumption of Frank v. Maryland, supra, Fourth Amendment interests are not merely "peripheral" where municipal fire, health, and housing inspection programs are involved whose purpose is to determine the existence of physical conditions not complying with local ordinances. Those programs, moreover, are enforceable by criminal process, as is refusal to allow an inspection. Pp. 529-531. (d) Warrantless administrative searches cannot be justified on the grounds that they make minimal demands on occupants; [387 U.S. 523, 524] that warrants in such cases are unfeasible; or that area inspection programs could not function under reasonable search-warrant requirements. Pp. 531-533. 2. Probable cause upon the basis of which warrants are to be issued for area code-enforcement inspections is not dependent on the inspector's belief that a particular dwelling violates the code but on the reasonableness of the enforcement agency's appraisal of conditions in the area as a whole. The standards to guide the magistrate in the issuance of such search warrants will necessarily vary with the municipal program being enforced. Pp. 534-539. 3. Search warrants which are required in nonemergency situations should normally be sought only after entry is refused. Pp. 539-540. 4. In the nonemergency situation here, appellant had a right to insist that the inspectors obtain a search warrant. P. 540."But I can see it any difference for an occupied structure for a building inspector.
Thank you Bill.
Mooney, your county regulators are crooked.
blue
"Mooney, your county regulators are crooked."
LOL. na we just bust the door down and yell howdy.
Tim
Ah Bill , a code enforcement officer =police officer .
A rental inspector is just that .
Under the rental codes I can enter under reasonable hours as a landlord.
On a private home I can enter with someone present thats inside as a BI.
They can refuse my entry as I dont carry a gun. I can make a call and turn the power off . Water too. I did not get search warrants . Normally when the light and water is off its them that has the problem. At that point the project has been stopped. Look that up.
On a permitted project or not , ongoing construction , any time if its not occupied. And yes I can be refused entry, but the job will be shut down immediately.
The municipal law is in place.
Tim
This industry is in bad need of a serious recession to weed out these feelings of entitlement.
"I can make a call and turn the power off . Water too."sounds like abuse of authority.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
heh heh
be oh you opened another can of worms now
Beware. RFID is coming.
"I can make a call and turn the power off . Water too."
"sounds like abuse of authority."
Actually that would be the direct result of an intentional violation. Turning off utilities is the last resort . They have had three contacts written and verbal explaing the possible out come if they dont comply. They could have been written a citation depending on the case . In the end if they dont comply with the laws, that is the definate outcome . Also in some cases they will have a law suit filed against them or charged by the city or by the prosecuter.
Its not different than the driving laws.
Tim
guess I misunderstood somethingthought shutting things off was because "you" weren't allowed to enter someplace, like on a hunch, suspicion, not a failed inspection or not allowing an inspection when a permit was issued.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
"thought shutting things off was because "you" weren't allowed to enter someplace, like on a hunch, suspicion, not a failed inspection or not allowing an inspection when a permit was issued."
Ok. First we dont have a particular case to talk about . I guess you or I could build one .
I see workers trucks parked out side a residence and I see material comming out or in with a dumpster. Lets say thats all I have to go on which is a legitamate reason.
First lets understand somthing which hasnt been lit on in this thread. Every house in said jurisdiction hasn been inspected at some time . All buildings are under my jurisdiction with in the city limits not just new builds . That has probably threw some folks. I knock on the door and idenify myself while having a marked car and a name tag plus a badge and licensing credentials as such as cards issued by my state and the city. When they get satisfied that I am who I am then I ask the question of whats going on and then lets say I wish to see it . I state that plainly with a gentelman approach because after all Im a public servant. Same as a police officer should using upmost respect but holding a firm hand to the situation.
They refuse my entry. I then make a verbal stop work order and in the next three days they will recieve a citation for ongoing work with out a permit by a police officer. On the summons will list their day in court. I write them up and send it to them. If they ignore everything , the power is discontinured. It will never be turned back on until they comply. 10 days after the power is discontinued the water meter is removed. Meanwhile the judge has issed a bench warrant for failure to apear and they will be arrested so I was told. They could get a lawyer to meet the judge where I would be present . Or they could represent themselves. The city lawyer would handle the case for us or the prosecuter. Depends on the case and thats their call.
At some point I will return to inspect the building if they want power and water . If they covered up plumbing , wiring , or hvac that had recently been done it all gets torn out for a visual inspection. If not I write a permit and we all become happy campers or at least I would be happy.
If they would have let me in to inspect I might have went away like in the case mention in this thread or simply wrote a permit .
Ive never had a case go near that far. Two times the owners got a lawyer and they both advised not to fight city hall. They advised they couldnt win it , so it was over .
I got a call from both lawyers and had to explain where I stood and quoted codes and laws. I faxed one all that stuff for him to review since he did not have code books. They both made an honest stab of representing their clients. I would have done the same for the owners.
Tim
I have had good and bad experiences with inspectors. Some are highly qualified, some not. Some understand a little theory and some understand the words as written in code books, sometimes in a way nobody else understands.
But we need inspections for the greater public good.
Even for someone who always builds to exceed than code requirements, there is a possibility that an inspector can teach that person something of value.
I see the problem as one of balance.
The scenario you described concerning how you have all the power and how you could basically crush the homeowner is one that could be painted by many other government employees, such as IRS folks, police officers, and God knows how many other alphabet soup characters. I don't like to hear it because it makes me uncomfortable. Sadly, the individual citizen has fewer rights than government representatives. Try to tell the IRS you are wrong and you do not intend to pay. Tell a police officer he is wrong and you were not involved in the crime. Try to argue with an inspector.
The power is all on one side. This is the problem. The government gets to know all about you, to keep data on you forever, and to use what they have. You, on the other hand, get to know less and less about the government. Secrecy and power on the one hand and very little of either on the other.
This maybe should be in the Tavern, but maybe the subject of building inspections should also be confined to the Tavern.
We need inspections and inspectors. Some of the inspectors need better attitudes.
"We need inspections and inspectors. Some of the inspectors need better attitudes."
That's pretty much the bottom line. Part of my job involves enforcing regulations. A few public employees with a bad attitude can give a lot of people a negative impression of all government employees. It isn't "our job" to be friendly, or necessarily to educate those we regulate. But absolutely it is our job to enforce regulations objectively and without letting our personal preferences dictate what is "required".
But I also think that many people are wrongly afraid to appeal a decision made by a individual inspector. As long as an appeal is made in a objective, straightforward way and non-argumentative way, I wouldn't be too concerned about the consequences.
We need inspections and inspectors. but we also need to seperate these people from the property tax office. I have no problem with somebody looking over my work, I welcome it but not if their only reason is to raise property tax.
I think it is ok to be upset when you make an appeal, especially if you have a lot of experience and you feel strongly you are right.
My instinct tells me that the same process that stands behind the inspector will be there whether or not he is right. Appeal for the individual is not a realistic solution in most cases, hence the phrase: "don't fight city hall".
We are taught to just get along. That is really the easy way for us to get by until the next time our rights are stepped on.
Is our set of choices limited to "paper or plastic"? I think we should be more involved in our country than that.
Sasq: YOu have hit on something. Sum it up, Governemtn is FORCE, period. That is why the founding fathers invisioned a government small period, and smaller still at teh federal level. Sadly, most people are too busy to be concerned with ceeding power to the government and consequently it's FORCE has growth well beyond the original intent. Most people are just blind to it.
Build a house? Sure if you build it the government way, and don't build it where they say you CAN't. Buy and play with Lawn Darts? Well, sorry the toy was banned years ago. Own a house and would like to die there or give it to your grandkids, sorry Home Depot wants to rip it down and build as store, you loss. Are you so taxed that you are dependent on the great Uncle for your kid's college education, medical care in your old age, retirement? And would you fear for you well being if the Uncle one day said, sorry you are cut off? I define that as a form of slavery.
Government at any level is pure force. To be sure we need governments. But it is way to easy for it to run amoke. And like the frog in a pot of water on the stove, he sits in it as the temperature rises slowly, not realizing his perilous situation untill it is too late. Like the frog we have no idea from whence we came and how much we have lost.
Throughout history, good people have seen opportunities for innovation and improvement. These folks have worked to introduce new things for our benefit.
It ranges from innovative uses of rocks to hunt or build better, or certain plants to live better to atomic energy.
Behind every inventor, scientist, philosopher, and person-of-God, there follows a horde of implementers. This group is as important as the group with the original.
Unfortunately, the implementers are followed by the opportunists who see an angle. They are great at squeezing a little more out of each process for profit and power. This is an area where our morality is failing.
Not satisfied to sell a car? - sell $400.00 rust protection and an $800.00 trim package. (Why include these things in the price of the car when you can find enough trusting people to pay more of their hard-earned money thinking they are getting something special.)
Not satisfied to sell an appliance? - Get the customer to buy an extended warranty, which is more profitable than the appliance itself.
Not satisfied to sell a cure for ulcers? - sell a medicine for temporary symptomatic relief.
Sign seen behind the curtain in the employee area of a mall shoe store: "If you have sold the customer what he wants, then you haven't sold the customer anything."
Government is a great idea. How it grows is a question of morality. When it is no longer a common vision to share knowledge with common people and invite them into the decision-making world, the opportunity to take advantage of knowledge to the detriment of everyone is greatly increased. The first step is to dumb down the schools.
Thoughts in the mind of a citizen in the time of the founding fathers:
What is justice? What is freedom? How shall we afford a safe environment for people to grow? How can we make commerce fair? What is the common good?
Thoughts today:
How many toppings should I have on my pizza? Paper or plastic? Who has the remote? Who has the nicer smile - Bush or Kerry? How can I get my broken toe fixed without paying?
Sounds like you're someone who would, or already does, appreciate the writing of Charles Sykes.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Government at any level is pure force. To be sure we need governments
That's why it's called the "police power of the State." Since we reserve to the state the ability to pre-empt Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness, a person might think "we'd" pay more attention to the limits of that pre-emption.
Go figure.
Oh, and if anyone is worried about the abuse of power by an arrogant BI, talk to your local Game Warden.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Tim - I'm with bobl on this. Your suspicion is not enough of a reason to let you into my house. Actually, around here there have been a couple cases where bi's were not allowed on the grass - the open view doctrine applied from what could be seen from the sidewalk.
I had an experience a couple years ago when I opened the door to a knock and an inspector flashed his badge, started asking questions. I asked him how he got in the yard and he said he reached over the gate and found the lock. I told him there was no outside lock on the gate and he didn't belong on the property - get off. He started trying to intimidate me, said he would get a warrant. I told him to get one - get off the property first. Then he said they had aerial photographs - I told him when he had the warrant come back. I was getting hot. He left and I never heard from him/them again. A neighbor didn't like the way the place looked and called whenever she had gas to make herself feel better. What was going on behind closed fence was not her business - or the Town's. Funny thing was one of the Town Inspectors finally walked over to her house and told her to mind her own business, and it stopped.
I think I know enough about what you did to say that you at least tried to enforce the laws for all, fairly to all. That's doing your job honestly.
But, I still don't agree that you are entitled to entry into somebody's house under those circumstances, and any subsequent paperwork didn't make it right either. I don't know what material you saw going into the house, but there could have been a perfectly reasonable explanation - but it's not your business. Like somebody said - that's guilty until proven innocent. That's bs. The two homeowners that caved just did something expedient, to save headaches. That still doesn't make your search right. I admire the people that fight City Hall. Sometimes, it helps keep them honest.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
"They refuse my entry. I then make a verbal stop work order and in the next three days they will recieve a citation for ongoing work with out a permit by a police officer. On the summons will list their day in court."this is what I don't understand.You have suspicions, but no proof. A warrent is issued on suspicion only.If a police oficer is a lot of people going into and out of a house and suspects it is a drug house, can the officer issue a stop order and have a warrent to appear in court on that suspicion only?I don't see a difference.either "we" are protected from improper search and seasure or we're not. What you describe, we are not.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Its the same .
If you are driving irratically and have broken no laws you may be stopped for suspicion of DUI.
You refuse any tests reccomended .
You are going to jail innocent or guilty.
Now Ill ask you this ; What do you have to hide from an inspector?
Tim
Edited 6/20/2006 6:05 pm by Mooney
"What do you have to hide from an inspector?"it isn't what I have to hide, but what rights I have (or don't have)why not let the police in at 3am if they knock on the door, what do you have to hide.we either have rights or we don't.it's not what we have to hide.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Under those circumstances Id say we dont have any.
My nephew sold some agents some drugs and he left . Sometime later on another night they had a warrant for his arrest. Everything sounds kosher doesnt it ?
They busted the door down to his mothers house and found a brother in bed with his girlfriend . They were both nekkid. Both were innocent but both woke up to lights in their eyes and the covers were stripped . They held them for two hours in the house and ramshacked it . They wouldnt say word so they treated them like shid and threatened them. Still they were silent . They took them to jail and led them to interrogation where they spend another two hours till the girl said look , you arrested his brother . The one you are looking for lives down the hill in the little house .
All that was brought up in court and the judge let it slide even after a formal complaint .
Now that is treating folks bad.
Tim
If you are driving irratically and have broken no laws you may be stopped for suspicion of DUI.this morning on the way to work at 2 am, I made a right on red without coming to a stop . it was so close to a full stop. way out in the county, no traffic at all. no headlight anywhere on the roads. I got pulled over by a sherriff deputy. sherriff here never pull traffic duty.I think he was looking for dui"s at that time.No ticket, no warning, just watch out.
What do you have to hide from an inspector?
My privacy.
If he'll post his address and allow anyone to walk through his personal residence anytime THEY want, then I'd be more open to letting him decide when he can walk through my personal residence.
Tim, this discussion was settled when the Constitution was written. You can rationalize the discussion any way you want but in the end, it's nothing more than big government stepping on the rights of individual people. It's David vs Goliath to the Nth degree.
blue
"Tim, this discussion was settled when the Constitution was written. You can rationalize the discussion any way you want but in the end, it's nothing more than big government stepping on the rights of individual people. It's David vs Goliath to the Nth degree."
Then start working to change it I guess . What I posted is legal procedure .
Not really this issue as I didnt have a lot of problems considering no one liked what I had to say when I worked there. Lets let all the inspectors and police go home and look for other jobs . We wont have any enforcement of any kind . But no you would not want that either. Its the attitude of the people thats was hard to wash down. Im glad I dont do it anymore. I was lucky enough to save some people so let them save themselves? Most of the general public dont know shid about this business and look to others . Theres some sons a britches contractors out there that would hurt them in a heart beat for an almighty dollar . Its a hard world out there . Drugs have ruined hoods and forced people out of their homes and to lose their savings while their children were cut down in the streets . It wont happen to you because you dont live there or will it ?
Everyone would like to be left alone . I would rather not be searched in an airport becuse after all Im innocent . They still do it , but mebbe my plane wont be taken over because of it . All I can tell you is people voted . Be a part of changing it but have an answer for the alternatives.
Tim
But Tim wouldn't you agree that some people/inspectors do get a little "Barny Fife" in them and they feel that they can tight-rope the fine line of right and wrong?
Haven't you ever gone to the drivers licence dept and thought the person behind the counter was a bit of a jerk because they could be? or the person at the water dept was acting all high and mighty because they are the only show in town? If not then I'd say you live in Utopia.
I sited an example of BI going to rental houses to snoop, not because there was work being preformed, but to see what the place was like inside. In that town the city inspected rental houses every 5 or 10(don't recall anymore) years so why the sneaky SOB need to go in any other time, and to lie to do so is even more evident of the problem that existed.
I don't think I have ever had a problem with BI's, did notice that when I was in the "money" neighborhood that I got by with a lot more then when I was in the middle income to poorer hoods, wonder what's with that? My guess is that the BI thought he could and therefore did!
Just my evaluation, I'm sure that just as in any walk of life there are good and bad, its human nature.
I'm not one to follow rules all that tight so maybe my perception of BI is a bit tainted, not really sure.
Doug
Edited 6/20/2006 10:39 pm ET by DougU
I think its human nature to use what leverage you have to make things better . That means a whole lot of things . Men do it in a relationship to a woman. Women pull it off all the time . So yes its a trait of humans.
People in authority positions all the way to Popes have been taking advantage to some degree.
Its kinda just like Clint Eastwood said;
There are people with guns and people who dig. Ive got a gun and you dig .
Tim
When it comes to the government that is pretty naive. And I think as an inspector you know you are blowing smoke.
whenever we hire new help, just out of school, as concrete inspector or foundation inspector. We have the Barney fife symplex. They was to bust the contractor. make them pay. They cant understand he trying to make money too. It usually take about two years to learn, "Just write the number down" and keep going. Last thing I was to argue about at work, is work.
Mooney, I don't think anyone here is saying "send all cops home or inspectors home". You are being disingenous to say otherwise. What people are saying is there are right ways and wrong ways to do things. And to fall back on legal procedures as you do is not a complete answer either. I am sure it was legal for the Germans to round up Jews too, but that does not make it right.
As for inspections, I can't say I am a great fan. I think they should be voluntry. I think most people and builders would get them anyway as only fools would buy their product (houses) without a certified inspection process known to have been done. But I digress. ANd it is true that if you sign up to build something you agree to the inspection process and therefore logically there must be processes to insure that the inspections take place. This is your arguement as to legal procedures. All fine and good so far. However, if part of those procedures includes an open and openended invitation to entire a home, then I say that is an ILLEGAL "legal procedure" under the Constitution.
I would rather not be searched in an airport becuse after all Im innocent
YOu have a choice to drive your car. YOu don't have to subject yourself to the search at the airport.
Maybe I'm not reading you right but I think you are saying that a building inspector can walk into anyone's home any time he wants, according to the law? Is this what you are saying?
blue
Mooney,I don't know exactly what statutory powers you have or don't have, or what is technically legal or illegal in your jurisdiction. But I think what most of the posters are reacting to is your apparent contention that "since it's legal, I can do it and will do it", regardless of the circumstances.If you read your posts carefully, you can occasionally pick out instances where you could infer that you aren't this legalistic and hard to get along with, but the general tone of your posts (in this and often in other threads as well) is that you have been given "x" statutory authority, and, by golly, you intend to use (or at least threaten) the full extent of that authority, no matter what the situation.I don't think this is how you operate(d), because, for one, you wouldn't have any time to do any inspecting if you were constantly writing up stop work citations. But I can see why some posters take exception to the attitude that is conveyed by your posts, whether you convey it intentionally or not...Just my 2 cents, and it's probably worth at least half that...
I think I summed it up in the book I just wrote to Blue. <G>
Tim
in the book I just wrote to Blue. <G>
Yeah, but it was a pretty good book <g>.
I'm torn on this; I've been to both sides, and the stinkin' middle, too.
I worked for a clod who made every clichè about rich people true (and then some). He really believed that it was no business of "the government" what he did with "his" building (even though the stated use was lease space). He was equally unconcered about "troublesome" things like inspections, permits, and the like (he was convinced it was nothing but a "fleece job" by government--nothing more than codified baksheesh).
(He did get his comuppance recently, though--the City came by and made him comply with the Sign Ordinace on the "evil" building; with that violation on the books, they threatened criminal procedings for his health club expansion/apartment expansion lil' project he stared up, skipping the entire development process--couldn't of happened to a more deserving party, too . . . )
At the same time, I know what hoops I/my office has to go jumping through (and liking it too, three bags full). This does not make me happy to hear some smug nebulon going on about how they "beat" the system.
My least best feelings come from when I see some of the things that go on out of the City. Sure, 80% is as good, some of it's better than what's been through the Review process. But, it's that other 20% that scares me. Brick lintels? Wazzat? Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"...you have been given "x" statutory authority, and, by golly, you intend to use (or at least threaten) the full extent of that authority, no matter what the situation."
What I've observed is a kind of self-selection process seen among rent-a-cops, security guards, police officers, and even building inspectors: a certain kind of personality is attracted to positions with explicit authority; those same kinds of personalities seem more likely to have their authority go to their heads.
There have been some very interesting experiments conducted in which ordinary people have gone over the edge, some becoming extremely abusive, once given a uniform (in some cases, merely a hat or t-shirt) and a modicum of authority.
I can't say I am at all surprised that a BI would be inclined to zealousness - it seems like a likely extension of the self-selection process.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
There's a pretty good movie on the subject of what power and authority can do. I think it is called "The Experiment".
Jazzy
That's why I always refer to it as the "Barney Fife" syndrome. I think it should be taught that way in psych 101.
Doug
Edited 6/23/2006 8:07 pm ET by DougU
I would rather not be searched in an airport becuse after all Im innocent
YOu have a choice to drive your car. YOu don't have to subject yourself to the search at the airport.
Maybe I'm not reading you right but I think you are saying that a building inspector can walk into anyone's home any time he wants, according to the law? Is this what you are saying?
I think I can answer you and pretty well sum it up. So not only your concerns but others here . So this is to all sorta.
First thing , I cant help what the law says .
I dont know what some people were thinking when they signed on to living in a city. All of us know that there are laws and codes . Im honestly thinking here ; What were yall thinking would happen if you said the h^ll with it . Its my house , Ill do what the h^ll I want . P^ss on everyone that tries to tell me anything . Thats what it sounds like to me.
Heres why: Any time you have a house in the city , that said house is under the authority of city goverment . Period. There are no shades of grey with that. The city codes may say that you cannot have a pit bull residing in the city. Normally that means period. People have went to the polls and voted that in . Its not the code officers idea. Hes just doing a job that he was hired to do. If a pit bull is seen on your property a code enforcement officer can come to the front door and ask questions about it . Period. He may ask to be let in and be refused . If the officer sees one through the window after you said that he can write a citation. If not he can get a search warrant .
"Maybe I'm not reading you right but I think you are saying that a building inspector can walk into anyone's home any time he wants, according to the law? Is this what you are saying? "
No I didnt .
I saw signs of ongoing construction in my example . I was not allowed to actually view it . In this case I was refused entry period . Not come back another time or schedule an appointment , but flat no not ever. Thats against our laws. It says that I can which is fine with me on appointment . Since I was flatly turned down , Ill write it up . Ill go to court on it . The law says I can view any building in my jurisdiction. Thats what the law says not me . I will be permitted to inspect any building . Like it or not , thats the law. Refusing my entry at any future time is against our laws. That alone will send it to a judge.
Yall are getting hung up on forced entry. I guess the reason several of you are is because the inspector walked in the authors house in this thread. I said that was wrong although if the door was open it would have been inviting to me and hearing men working . Ive done that and if I would have been asked to leave I would have done it immediately. I guess I would be comfortable in an open door situation if I knew who the trucks belonged to but even then I should knock if its a residence where someone is living . On a house unoccupied, under permit , no. I didnt practice force entry and dont believe in it with out a warrant .
"YOu have a choice to drive your car. YOu don't have to subject yourself to the search at the airport."
Blue, you just brought up a very very important point that I as well would like to make .
For those of you that feel that you want the minimum from goverment , probably need to live out side any city limits. Some states are nearly zilch on licensing . I think Boss said that they have nothing if I remember correctly. There are a lot of people who prefer to get away from goverment while there are others that want restrictions for many different reasons. People living in cities are having to live close to others and normally want a lot of restrictions. They want to protect their home and family so they buy into it. I agree with a lot of it . I live in a bigger home in this town in an executive subdivision. I want my property value to go up , not down, not crashing . So I buy into the deal of city goverment . I will not say I like it all but its a trade off . I only own 1 acre where I live and I can see people on all four sides of me . Im protected against a shack being built next to me which is exactly what could happen with no codes. In fact in this addition there is a high minimum sq footage. Everyone knew that comming in and there are many more rules to abide by. I own three different peices of ground I could build a home on which does not have restrictions or code enforcement. I choose to live here . When I did I bought into the whole deal of city goverment . They can choose if they are going to haul my trash or if I can. Oh I could do it and they can charge me anyway. That case settled in its own dust mebbe partly because I was one of the ones that went to the city council meeting and made many calls telling folks to call every council member like I did and show up and be counted on vote night . They did not put it to a vote because of a room of upset people . Thats how you change things in goverment .
Tim
Edited 6/21/2006 10:00 pm by Mooney
Tim
I'm not raggin on ya but this line made me laugh;
There are no shades of grey with that.
You cant be serious, why do we have judges and the court system?
There are numerous examples of grey within the written law. I know, I tiptoed on most of them growing up!
Doug
Edited 6/21/2006 11:17 pm ET by DougU
"There are no shades of grey with that."
I dont have it in front of me and its been a while since I read it . I can only tell ya that it was direct . No guessing what it meant . Wish I could whoop a quote on ya , lol. KInda like what part of no did ya not understand .
Edit ; Oh you mean that its grey because it can go in front of a judge . Yep yer right .
People fight DUIs all the time. Think about it . Insurance is the reason. So yea .
Tim
Edited 6/21/2006 11:43 pm by Mooney
Tim
Oh you mean that its gray because it can go in front of a judge . Yep yer right .
Yea, sorta what I meant!
I have no question regarding your integrity regarding these situations. Not implying any wrong doings, but I'm sure as in all areas there is good and bad, we is human and as such theres gonna be good and bad.
Doug
"Amendment IV - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."A BI being able to walk into where ever they feel like violites this IMO.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
No it doesnt .
Its not a search and seizure . I could care less what they are in possesssion of . I believe you too are confusing article with building . They dont need to protect anything from me. Thats why I have no use in a search warrant . No one caught that . Im not looking for anything that would serve it .
When you buy utilities from the city you must comply with the regulations or loose the privledges.
Tim
Ok, I have a question for you... it concerns our home that we bought and why some shy away from B.I's
The house was built in 1930 and the electrical is no way to todays codes(of course). the meter is 18 off the ground in an out side alcove built into the bricks below the kitchen sink. The power runs to a large main fused main disconnect, to a meter, then out the individually fused circuits that are all soldered together. I also know for fact that this house has has several inspections done in the 70's and they have passed because the city has given me copies of the inspection cards and there are no corrections note on the electrical. One of these is the addition of a swamp cooling system
The city says that If I want to add A/C, then I have to replace all of the panels, move the meter, install an external mast(because the old is built into the bricks,) plus the utility Co says that I will probably have to pay for a new 100 year property tax lease tax on new wire to the home at approx$2-3K).
I am also stealing power from the range and dryer when I convert them to natural gas. But that is another issue.
They said that the meter/panel is fine where it is because it is "grandfathered in" as long as I don't add any thing to the existing system.
So, this is where I have the problem, in one hand, I want to make my house safe and put my home on breakers and get rid of all of this poorly soldered, unprotected wires, put the feeder lines in conduit, insulate the lines going into the panels and clean up the mess. But doing this all legally.
On the other hand, I have an electrician, plus myself, saying that this is B.S. We "should" be able to do this, because of the grandfather clause, as long as the workmanship(wire/breaker/load sizing, splicing, etc) meets "Code" even though we can't meet the new height requirement.
So, when it comes to building inspections/permits, this is sort of the reasons why some people try to go around the system to avoid the hassle of dealing with the bureacrats.
I'm not against paying the Dept for an inspection. But in the same case, I would not be happy when I find that the county has raised my property taxes because I have upgraded my electrical, or roof, or kitchen, either(that should be another thread)
I cant make a call on your electrical system . Im not there to see it .
However , if the BI was satisfied with the curent panel, you could still install a new meter loop and have a separate panel box providing the whole thing shuts off out side the meter. You can still install a new box , then that would give you two if the BI will approve it . Its his call.
No one can help the tax thing and the utility comapny would be best advised not to give tax advice.
Tim
I'm sorry, I wasn't asking for you to make a call on our electrical, I was merely trying to make a point where the "powers that be" don't seem to work with the public in matters where it is either open to interpretation or whether it's ok left alone(not safe) and not ok (up graded). Nor is this a personal attack on you. I only ask you since you are the only one I can ask that has been a BI.
(As for the eletrical part of my senario, they told me that the whole thing would have to basically abandoned, if I wanted to add on.)
This is where people like me take it in our own hands to do work without permits to deal with situations like this.
Now, for the inspector that goes to the job for an inspection, say rough plumbing, and all he does is shine his flashlight into the crawlspace and says, "looks good". Same goes for the BI that never bothers to open up the engineering for the truss package, let alone even look above the 8' plate line.
Isn't he doing just as much of a dis-service as the guy who doesn't bother to pull the permit?
I guess I'm rambling here, because I'm releasing some built up frustrations concerning the way the system works.
You finally said enough to bite on for me .
If the BI has told you that then he has judged the system. In other words it doesnt pass adding on to it . Thats his call . Its also kosher for him to do it. I wouldnt take that as a negative against him. Of course no one wants to spend two or three grand either or more when they werent planning on it . Your system is grandfathered in and he cant change it as it is or their would be a bunch of folks redoing a lot of things . At least he didnt red tag it which could have happened if it was unsafe .
I dont take anything in this thread as an attack. Ive posted with most of these guys for years . We either misunderstand or we disagree and move on. At least I do.
The last part isnt really clear so this might be a case of misunderstanding on my part.
A good inspector has a lot of experience either on his present job or in the trades. A talented inspector can see a lot of things in a few moments. Sometimes he has to work to see them. My favorite was plumbing . Just follow the white plastic road till you get to a stack. If the turns look pecular or different then inspecting really nearly stops moving and thought process kicks in. Will this work? Whats the code say? So that takes some time , but when a good plumber has done it its easy to inspect normally and it can get a , "looks good", in a few moments because that plastic road was easily followed.
When a homeowner lets say has plumbed his own bathroom , then likely its going to take a lot of time and the inspector is likely to be putting on a class . I guess some inspectors will red tag the hech out of it and move on. However that doesnt ease the work load . I would rather stay a while longer to get this guy past an inspection so I can have fun doing somthing else .
Was that any thing close to what you were looking for ? LOL.
Tim
Just follow the white plastic road till you get to a stack. If the turns look pecular or different then inspecting really nearly stops moving and thought process kicks in. Will this work? Whats the code say? So that takes some time , but when a good plumber has done it its easy to inspect normally and it can get a , "looks good", in a few moments because that plastic road was easily followed.
LOL
It took two inspectors 45 minutes wandering and scratching around three stacked bathrooms to give me a "Dam, that looks good," on my last job.SamT
I really loved working with the plumbers because they know ther trade, book wise. They are normally easy going and friendly. That trade has somthing that attracts a certain kind of person. A lot of them are good mechanics and own different pieces of equipment . I always thought of a plumber as a cat fisherman and an electrician as a fly fisherman. Thats what kind of difference there is between them.
It gets really funny when deer season comes and the different trades talk about it . The electrician has to take a formula in their plan of XYZ, weather , dew point , etc. Plumbers get some coffee and beer and head to deer camp and eat very well .
Tim
Edited 6/23/2006 7:51 am by Mooney
On the other hand, I have an electrician, plus myself, saying that this is B.S. We "should" be able to do this, because of the grandfather clause, as long as the workmanship(wire/breaker/load sizing, splicing, etc) meets "Code" even though we can't meet the new height requirement.
Meets code except where it doesn't, you mean (as in height). It's the same everywhere, in every sort of regulated industry: as soon as you change something, you need to bring the whole up to current code. You can't bring parts of it up to code. You can't pick and choose what parts of the code to live by.
You do have the right to go to the office of the building department and go to plan check and senior inspectors and try to find another solution which may constitute a waiver. Field inspectors are only the eyes in the field. Even though they may have extensive experience in the trade, they just have to follow the plans and the code. It is not their job to interpret and re-enginner. Plan check can. Give it a try. Before I became an inspector, I had a project that was counter to code, but was able to get a varience, as what I had didn't pose a threat to the neighborhood and was fully functional. I did have to meet with three different people until I found one who could understand and think for themselves instead of just parroting the first few code sections they memorized.
"They dont need to protect anything from me. Thats why I have no use in a search warrant . No one caught that . Im not looking for anything that would serve it ."It is not to protected YOU (the BI). It is to protect the resident.Now you are saying that if you did one of an inspect without the HO permission and saw a dead body on the floor that you would not report it to the police.
"They dont need to protect anything from me. Thats why I have no use in a search warrant . No one caught that . Im not looking for anything that would serve it ."
It is not to protected YOU (the BI). It is to protect the resident.
Now you are saying that if you did one of an inspect without the HO permission and saw a dead body on the floor that you would not report it to the police.
Bill , .... grrr . You pasted somthing I said . Now read it again please. They dont need to protect any thing FROM ME. I never asked to be protected , lol.
When and where did I ever say I would inspect a house with out the homeowners persmission? Leave force entry off me . I didnt start that for the third time now. I never did that unless there was a building permit and the house is empty. When its locked , I call to set an appointment . Sometimes they give me the code to the garage door and some times hide a key or meet me or leave it open. But get this clear , we talk before I go through a locked door . That job wasnt much of a job but I did try to protect it .
If I saw a dead body I would do what anyone would do and call 911.
You also need to get this ; If you dont want your house inspected thats fine with me . Its you that will have a problem with out power and water . Mine has it . It will continue to have it . In the end thats the end of it .
Wife took me away right here to grill steaks and I had time to think about your posts. It occurred ro me that you are a handy man. You do electrical and plumbing with out a lisense dont you ? Are you bonded and insured?
I can see where this subject could rain on your parade with an inspector knocking on the door with you inside plumbing or what ever with out a lisense. So be it . You like to dance you have to pay sometimes . As long as you dont over extend what you are supposed to do you wont have to worry about it .
Tim
if you shut of water and power you have effectifly siezed the property.if you "think" something is going on you can just walk insorry to me you are violating the 4th amendment.just because a "law" is on the books, doesn't make it constitutional.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
'if you shut of water and power you have effectifly siezed the property.
if you "think" something is going on you can just walk in
sorry to me you are violating the 4th amendment.
just because a "law" is on the books, doesn't make it constitutional.'
Come on guys . If yall are gonna quote me get it right please. Please.
You first get your day in court to tell your side of it . I dont stomp out there with a meter key and shut it off . I said , I write it up and turn it in . I let the legal process begin. Remember , there is a judge in this too. You have every right to meet me in court and I havent set foot inside your house yet. I simply go back to the office and write it up and send you a copy via mail. At 5 pm I head to the house and Im done for the day.
Tim
A BI being able to walk into where ever they feel like violites this IMO
It might, but only might--we're back to definitions, and the definitions are critical here.
If you have pulled a permit, you have ceded a certain amout of that "security of house." That's balanced by the loss havign to be "reasonable."
If the door is open, and there are contractors & their employess freely going in and out--the subject structure is not "secure," it's open to all who have legitimate business there. At least during "reasonable" business hours.
Maybe there's no permit pulled. BI rolls by and sees what appears to be a construction site. Un-permitted construction is in the purview of BI. It's reasonable for them to enter premises in investigation. Now, whether they need/ought to knock on a closed door or not--that's a thornier issue.
Ok, it's after 1700, and the BI is just driving by some houses. After work, people come home and presume to be safe in their houses. I'm pretty sure, even though you can read a "could" into the BI rules, that you really have to count on the "should" being a "BI should not enter."
That is, unless the reason the BI stopped is that there's an orange extension cord hanging off the power lines, snaping & arcing away as it loops into the house. Or there's a hose duct-taped to a hydrant or gas meter looping into the house.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"Maybe there's no permit pulled. BI rolls by and sees what appears to be a construction site. Un-permitted construction is in the purview of BI. It's reasonable for them to enter premises in investigation. "disagreethe BI is conducting a search.part of what you are saying is my door always has to be locked.no way do I agree with that.The BI is a gov't representative and IMO has to comply with the 4th amendment.let's say I take the how close thread, invite some guys over for a mini fest at my house. they show up in their work vehicles. people going into out of my house.the BI can just walk in my house? BS
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
a mini fest at my house. they show up in their work vehicles. people going into out of my house.
the BI can just walk in my house?
Sure he can. When he's tossed out on his kiester afterwards, he just has to decide how dumb he'll look for trying to enforce construction regs on a fest.
We're back to the "reasonable" part again in a system that works by rule-of-law, rather than rule-of-reason. "Reasoning" people would not have so many problems interacting. Not all people are reasonable, sadly. That's why we have laws. The "gotcha" there, is that disputes mean having to go to court.
Can the BI walk in your house? Sure. Can you disagree with that? Sure. How does that get resolved? You both wind up in at least one courtroom. Unless you are both reasonable, that is.
If your neighbor was using a hunk of garden hose from the WH's gas line to run his patio heater for his version of a Fest, wouldn't you want some sort of muni ability to say, "Hey, quit endangering the entire neighborhood, you bozon"?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
the end doesn't justify the means
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
"Amendment IV - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
I'm sort of surprised this thread is still running, even if it has been interesting. Since I agree with Bobl, I've gotta jump back in. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I work for an agency (health department, specifically) that, among other things, conducts inspections and enforces regulations. The typical interpretation in public health, relying on US Court decisions in part, is that no state or local law or regulation trumps the US Constitution. So, even when inspecting permitted entities who agree to allow inspections as a condition of the permit, we show credentials and ask permission (OK, a few fail to do so, but they are supposed to do so). Without permission, we don't enter, but we can apply to the courts for an inspection warrant (which in some states is slightly different than a search warrant). That applies even to non-public areas of public businesses. For example, we can walk into the dining area of a restaurant anytime the place is open for business, but can only inspect the kitchen if we have permission.
On the other hand, we can also revoke a permit if an inspection is refused, because the permit holder is failing to comply with the conditions of the permit. I don't buy that building inspectors have a different right of entry than other agencies, but--as I see in my work--some government employees are able to "bluff" their way in because nobody ever says "no".
That is correct.
Tim
Tim,
First of all, I want to thank you for taking the time and trouble to explain your side of the building process. It's much too easy to lump law enforcement officers (of any kind) into one kettle and roast them them for the transgressions of the few. Some of the most vociferous critics here might do well to look around their own profession and demand the same professionalism from them as they do from LEO's.That said, any LEO has a lot of discretion when it comes to law enforcement. Interpretations can vary widely on what the rulebook does or does not prescribe. To give you a concrete example, we are only now about to receive our permanent CoO (six months after finishing the job and moving in) because the fire department's interpretation of the fire sprinkler code was different from the one used by our installer, the state, etc. Black and white, my foot!When we had our day in court (5 months after applying for a hearing), the building standards review board issued a 13-paragraph smack-down of the FD's interpretations, etc. and ordered inspectional services to sign our permanent CoO. Yet, does the FD Lt. or the Deputy Fire Chief suffer any consequences for not showing up for the hearing or for their conduct in this matter? Of course not. Lest we forget, your power to shut down a job site is an awesome power. It can bankrupt people, keep them out of their homes, etc. while the issues you cite percolate through the court system. You seem very level-headed in terms of how you apply that power, but humans being humans, some LEO's are not.Let me give you another example. Our plumbing inspector required a separate fire line from the street to the house, even though we have a 300 gallon fire sprinkler reservoir on site. That extra fire line was a $2000 adder, the justification for which is not found anywhere in the code. Yet, we were told we would face a stop order if we didn't install it. The pressure apparently came from the water department, which cannot turn off lines that feed fire sprinklers for non-payment. Ergo the need for two lines. Talk about unfunded mandates from the government...So, should I have shut down my site for months while I go to court? Piss off the entire BI division so that every permit sign-off becomes a tooth-pulling contest? No thanks, I'll cave in. I had the luxury of fighting the FD after we were done, i.e. with the benefit of time and a lot of goodwill in inspectional services who got us a temporary CoO while the appeal was being processed by the BRBS. Telling people to excercise their right to dispute the claims of a BI or to escalate the matter to a higher authority does miss the reality of the delays and costs it causes. As an inspector, you have little to lose for prescribing extra features, measures, perhaps even shutting a site down on the basis of your interpretation of the code. As a HO on the receiving end, you may lose everything.
Edited 6/22/2006 3:51 pm ET by Constantin
"
Edited 6/21/2006 12:10 pm ET by HammerHarry
Mooney, your comparison equals guilty until you prove yourself innocent? WOW! What do I have to hid? Well, sure just let a cop into your house two or three times a week, sure what do you have to hid. Or perhaps even more contempary, let teh government listen to all my phone conversations, what do I have to hid. (That said, the reality of the current situation is that the governemtn is not listening in, but collecting list of numbers and if certain numbers appear further warrants are needed to pursue more details.)
The "what do I have to hide logic", may seem logical to you as applied to inspections, but if so then it applies to all desires of government. You can't pick and chose.
bobl, BINGO!
And if you rent a house unknowingly to a drug dealer, they can just take your house! Jsutice? Due process?
WOW, and people scream about the government getting list of phone numbers which are in contact with al quidia! WOW! do we have misplaced concerns after reading this post!
Try dealing drugs and watch them come after your privacy. No dont , its not pretty.
Tim
IMO, it's socialism gone bananas and slipped in through the back door.At least we have our "make my day law" which says we have to "feel threatened"....Seriously, the law can be the law and still be ridiculous.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
This is not to Hasbeen, but to ALL.Here in LA the current philosophy is to be facilitators, not regulators. There is a specific branch of BI's that are code enforcement. They are the ones that go hunting for those who wish to shirk responsibility.Regular BI's are normally very nice and just try to help you build a safe building.I am going to run this thread past a couple of our Principal Inspectors to get their take on the "right of entry." I am not qualified yet to speak on that. However, one point you have overlooked in this discussion, is that one of the components of pulling a permit, is to authorize inspections. As such, it is a violation to deny access. Your legislative branch has give the building department broader powers than the police to regulate the building codes.Most of us, wouldn't storm the door, but an Order to Comply and Police escorts could be obtained. It is true that we don't require a warrant, and all that is entailed in getting one, to access property, because most of that is taken care of by the permit process. Of course each city has some differences in its rules and regulations.One of the ways Los Angeles reclaimed some property that was taken over by gangs and used for drug sales and manufacturing was to go in as a building inspector and bring the Police as protection and once inside, they could observe illegal activities and act on them. These buildings were then made into low cost housing. It was called the Falcon Program.I have been very impressed by the BI's I have been exposed two in two districts in their way of handling the public and the fairness of their approach.
"It is true that we don't require a warrant, and all that is entailed in getting one, to access property, because most of that is taken care of by the permit process."Don't forget that what is being discussed here is SUSPECTED work without a permit.Thus any implied permission that comes from the permit is meaningless in this case.BTW, you can change the To: to all or to other people in the thread by clicking on the down arrow just to the right of the To" Box.
Hi Bill,I have heard that is how you change it, but I never see that box when I do a reply. I see your name for example, but when I click it, no box, it just tells me about you. Ie.:BillHartmann
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11 yo grade school drop out that know more about GFCI's than some people that claim to be electricans.And the test results to prove it.
You must be in basic view.At the very bottom of any thread there is a place to click for advanced view.Don't know why they have it there, because it affects everything else that you view until you change it back.
KirkG, it will be interesting to here what you find.
Personally, I would be pretty POed if an inspector just walked in. Knock? Heck yes I would let him in on the spot unless there was a pretty good reason, naked wife in the back . . . And then I would schedule a return time. And that time would likely be pretty open ended for the inspectors convinence.
Can't everyone on both sides be reasonable and civil?
Around here they have the "Make my Day Law!" Would have goten his Azz Capped!
Doesn't sound like the same Charleston that Trademark works without permits and gives the permit department a hard time
Years ago i bought a old house, i was told the BI was a hardnose and he was gonna bust my chops as i had long hair. I was in the attic and turned around and he was standing there, I said who are you did you break in my house>?He said no he was trhe BI, I said i own this house and you have no right to be here. He said he was putting a stop work order on the house, I said i have not done anything and i have one question for you, He said what, I said how are you gonna get out of here alive? He ran out and brought back the cops i wanted him Arrested for breaking and enteringI told them. Turns out i was right he had no right but i owned the house anything else would be different Sorry to get worked up the old creep wanted a gift, Next job i told him i was going to the stateBI i had him on tape but i did not.
He saw a code violation - lack of permit. Plain sight. He had a right to entere and inquire.
No matter who's right and who's wrong....
I rarely find that getting into a pissing match with the building inspector is a good way to start off a project or relationship. Especially when I need his good graces more then he needs mine.
Just my two cents. Bees, honey, vinegar.... that whole story.
NO Doubt! Give a cop an additude you are teh one who is going to lose. Same thing with a BI.
That said, if I don't receive respect from the BI I could be hard nosed and ultimately it could become the BI's problem. But, hey, you are building something, you have a permit, and there are going to be inspections; what difference does it make what day or time the BI shows up. So start out on the right foot and roll with it/him.
"How come the Police, FBI, Secret Service, CIA, CTU, (Maybe not the CTU), NSA, DEA, Park Police, Border Patrol, Port Police, Mall Cop, Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard, and Sheriff all need a search warrant to enter your house, but the building inspector can walk right in unannounced and ask, "What's going on?"
Just for clarification....The U.S. Coast Guard does not need a Warrant..or a Badge to search your boat.
Ward
You got me on that one! What about a houseboat?Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
We love houseboats!!! That's when the Boarding Officer becomes the Building Inspector....Bow to Stern...plumbing, septic, construction, ventilation, wiring.....
You can be dead right or dead wrong.....know what they have in common?
A Morbark chipper doesn't leave finger prints.....or much else for that matter...you bonk em' and gently push them into the feed rollers and your troubles just disappear in miliseconds.
Nosey Inspector=bad career choice.
You ever see FBI Files on Discovery Channel? The covered a case where the guy froze his wife and sent her through a wood chipper aimed into a river. They said the lack of blood (frozen body) and the wood chipper made the case about as close as you could get to the perfect crime.
They bagged the dude cuz someone found a fingernail about two years later. So they dragged the river. They didn't find too many more pieces of her (fish food) but they did find a piece of a chainsaw engine. Seems the guy used the chainsaw to cut her into 'manageable' size pieces before feeding into the woodchipper. Only problem was the guy had actually sent in the warranty card on the chainsaw that he used. So the number on the engine part came back to him. In the end it seems the circumstantial evidence just piled up on top of him.
But even the FBI had to admit..... he was soooooooo close to pulling it off.
So I filed all this away somewhere in the back of my brain cuz........ ya just never know. ;)View Image
ya, good story for a building inspector thread:o)
Beware. RFID is coming.
hog farm....
hog's eat anything....
even bone......
Nice. Now you've even saved the cost of renting a chipper. ;)View Image
plus, you can probably get DNA out of a chipper... bet it's much harder to pick up in the sqauler of a hog pen.
You been watching Deadwood?
Nope, don't even know the show, just know a hog is the answer to lifes speacial problems
Like I told my wife, there is no divorce... "till death do us part" ;)
Deadwoods a show on HBO, thats how they get rid of the bodies, feed em to Woo's hogs!
I grew up working on the farm and your right, they eat everything, including themselves, no remains.
Doug
There's an intellectual discussion of the hog service by a character called "Brick Top" in a hugely enjoyable Guy Ritchie movie called "Snatched" -
Unscrupulous boxing promoters, violent bookmakers, a Russian gangster, incompetent amateur robbers, and supposedly Jewish jewelers fight to track down a priceless stolen diamond.
Watch it!
Forrest
Edited 6/18/2006 8:13 pm by McDesign
"You been watching Deadwood?"old sayingHaven't had this much fun since the hogs ate my little brother.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
My favorite line in "American Graffiti" comes after the cop car loses its rear axle, and Ants says something like, "that's the damndest thing I every seen . . . I seen a lit'le kid get et up by pigs once . . ."
Forrest
I encountered a zoning guy in CO bragging that he had also been named a BI so he could trespass anywhere. I mention that when I was a cop I sure wouldn't go wandering around on an acre of property w/o a warrant and backup. In response to his "huh"? I told him that CO has something commonly referred to as the "Make my day law". A property owner can blow away an intruder. No criminal or civil penalties are allowed. If any enforcement officer "intrudes" illegally the state supreme court has backed up the homeowner. The definition of illegal is up for grabs of course but I have yet to see a bullet proof (literally) definition--stupidity abounds. Tyr
Inspectors have a license to manipulate your life, livelihood and jewels if they preceive that you are functioning in their playground.
In Houston, Texas a Demo Permit is a good idea but not necessarily the first thing you'd reach for in your case.
Diplomacy is usually helpful with inspectors--both reasonable and ego-centric.
The personal connection also helps. Since you are playing in his playground--you will see this character again. You may not want to apologize to this guy, but you could stroke him when you see him again ,
To frame yourself as a professional (and not a simpering whipped pup,) tell him what you see as your next hurdle and Ask his opinion of your next step, what he wants to see. This will streamline your hunting for his Happy-Button----He may hand you the key.
Over a short period of time and visits, you can get a picture of this inspector's perspective and/or trigger-issues.