I recently had a huge kitchen overhaul at the cost of around 120,000. This past December living in the northeast, I had an ice dam issue, whereby water started leaking underneath my upper roof ( I have a colonial) soffitt, behind the gutter and behind the vinyl siding and right down between where my lower roof meets my wall. And of course into my kitchen. Excessive sheetrock damage, and leaks throughout the winter only during the time of excessive ice/ snow melting on my upper roof. –I never have a leak when it just rains. My roof and siding are all 3 years old.
My contractor which did the kitchen, and whom I trust 100% is telling me that in order to be 100% leak proof, we’ll need to take off the siding, soffitt, gutter and 3 rows of shingles on my upper roof. place ice and shield from the upper roof down behind soffitt, gutter, along plywood and onto the lower roof. then reinstall everything again, including re-capping the 8 windows in pvc and all new insulation board. I cringe thinking about having all this done considering roof and siding are so new.
Anyway, I would like to hear someone with experience tell me that this is the proper way to make this leak proof. Total cost of doing the above will be $2,500 Im assuming that is the going rate for this much labor.
Any input or advice would greatly be appreciated.
Thank you
Replies
Your roof is too warm in the winter. So I would attack that issue first. Could the kitchen remodel have had some influence on that? Unsealed penetrations into the attic from pipes, and recessed lights, vents etc can cause that.
Also, you may need ice and water shield on the roof to limit damage from future ice dams.
As to what your contractor proposes, I suppose its plausable, but I cant really say so without more information.
You need a lot more insulation is my best guess.
artie
Can you fill in the timeline on this work. You said the kitchen was "recent" and the roof "so new".
Maybe include a couple pictures of the exterior and to put minds at rest on any interior direct cause from the kitchen remodel-some from the inside.
thanks.
First off, you should be aware that this past winter (may it rot in Hell) was a particularly bad one for ice dams in many parts of the country. Around here (southern MN) places that had never had an ice dam problem in 30-40 years had them, and I understand the situation was similarly bad in places out East. So it may be that you need to do nothing.
As others have said, usually ice dam situations are due to heat coming from the house, through attic insulation, and then melting the snow on the roof. The area right at the edge of the roof is generally colder, so the meltwater freezes there, creating the dam. Water piles up behind it and runs under the shingles and into the structure.
However, sometimes the heat is due to sunlight heating bare areas on the roof, and sometimes it's due to odd roof angles and the way sunlight plays on some areas while others are in the shade.
So prevention is primarily a combination of insulation and ventilation -- insulation to keep the heat out of the attic, and ventilation to let it escape once it gets into the attic. In addition, it's important to air-seal the attic floor (top floor ceiling) so that no (hot) air escapes from the house into the attic -- air can blow straight through most types of insulation. It's particularly important that any HVAC equipment in the attic (including ductwork) be tightly sealed so that no air escapes. Also one needs to seal around pipe and wire penetrations.
The second level of defense is some sort of water barrier. "Ice and Water Shield" is the term for rubber-like membranes commonly used on parts of a roof that may be subjected to standing water behind an ice dam. And, in cases such as yours, where water is running down the side of a structure, or where snow may pile up against a vertical surface next to a lower roof, the membrane may be used to keep water from those sources out of the structure.
I can't say who is responsible for your problem without more information, so I'm not going to criticize the contractor. What he's proposing sounds like a Cadillac solution, and if he does it all for $2500 I'd guess he's losing money on the deal.
icedam
Icedams form when snow melts, fills the eavestrough and freezes again. The ice builds up under the shingles, lifts them and the problem continues upwards.
It compounds when warm air enters the attic.
I just re-read the initial question and it now appears to me that the ice dam maybe began on a second story roof. So maybe I was hasty to criticize your contractor.
Is there a room above the kitchen?
Did the contractor perform any work up there?
Were any changes made to the insulation or HVAC system up there?
Did anything at all different happen in that [possible] second story room?
I recently consulted an elderly couple who have never had any ice dam issues before (for 30 years) until this year. When I asked what they did differently THIS year they said "We didn't do anything different that we can think of, I don't know why this is happening. Usually we're not even here this late in the year. We usually go to Florida as soon as it starts getting really cold." I checked the thermostat.... 80 degrees! I checked the attic.....R-13!!!!! I asked what they set the thermostat to when they go to Florida..... "Oh, we always set it just above 50 degrees."
I think I figured out their problem.
Then when I told them what the problem was and how I could [economically] fix the problem for them they just said "We can't afford that, we're heading to Florida next week anyway." Some people don't get it.
The point of the story is that there may have been changes made (in home and lifestyle) that you don't think were important but to someone who understands building science could've had major effects.
DC
test
Lot of ice damns this year
"I cringe thinking about having all this done considering roof and siding are so new."
It is not how new that maters, but how well done - or not. I recently wrote an inspection report on a similar Colonial with a similar problem, except that to me it appeared more likely that it was not ice damns, but poor window flashing technique that was the source of the trouble.
It is the unseen detailing that allows these leaks, so it is often necessary to hit all those items to warrantee the work.
But the economic option is to do one item at a time. If there are strong reasons to believe it is ice damning and not siding problems, then just redo three feet of roofing or so, and see if it leaks next winter.
Seems to me that someone who can afford a 120K kitchen can afford the 25 hundred to buy some peace of mind tho
Whatinell????!!
" I would tell your contractor to fix the work for free considering it was probably his fault."
I have read NOTHING here to indicate that. The contractor did not build the house or instal siding - he remoed the Kitchen is all. You are making quite a large leap
Hey bub, I make my living problem solving building issues like these... I don't necessarily need to hear the whole story to figure out the cause of the problem.
Professional expertise allows one the privilege to make educated guesses.
Sounds to me like I was right again. Of course the contractor will probably deny it or blame it on a raccoon - I'm actually kinda interested to hear whether his virtuousness shines through or if the credibility of the entire trade will drop another notch.
DC
That you appeared to be partly right waas more of a lucky co0incidence thn any sort of professional xpertise, something you rarely display here
Bub
Piffin
".....professional xpertise, something you rarely display here..."
I beg your pardon, when have I ever given anything but sound information around here? I'll chalk up the implications of your statement as proving just how little you know about me. The idea that my problem solving skills are somehow lesser than your own is simply a matter of your wayward presumptions. Maybe you should consider that my technical experience is just as valuable as your own, not just a "lucky coincidence". Just like you, I am out there everyday making a living doing what I am good at and knowledgeable of; remodeling houses. Inso, I don't get by on neither luck nor coincidence.
DC
Sorry
Couldn't see it for the gigantic chip you always have on your shoulder
Icedam
I second this.
Who build the roof or did the shingling without an icedam? Look for remedy from these contractors.
My guess is there is no tarpaper under the shingles for the first 2 or 3 feet from the soffit.
Secondly, most likely the soffit was installed before the siding and the sheathing wrap (tarpaper or similiar) did not extend to the topplates. When water hit the soffitmaterial it ran back to the wall sheathing and then entered the building envelope.
How would a kitchenrenovator be responsible for that????
Putting in ice shield doesn't fix the problem. It is only a Band Aid. The problem is your roof is getting too warm ... causing ice damming ... and the leaking.
Did the kitchen reno involve e.g. recessed lights? Did it involve attic insulation changes (or work that affected the insulation)? Did insulation get removed? Did additional insulation get installed (that maybe blocks the vents)?
If your contractor did anything along those lines, he may be responsible for the damage. If not, then you'll need to look elsewhere for the cause.
So taking most of these posts into consideration I did a few things. I went into the crawl space which was totally gutted, since they took down a load bearing wall, they came in with an I-beam. When I was in the crawl space I noticed all the new insulation, however, I also noticed that they never reinstalled the duct work on two of my AC vents. Therefore, I have to think that there was so much heat going up into the crawlspace to cause the melting. But my other concern is daming or no daming, I dont like to know that water has a way down into my home. So I think I may point out to my contractor that the ducts werent connected and see what he has to offer at that point. End of the day, I just want this fixed correctly.
Thanks all for your input. Much appreciated.