What do you think. I KNOW they are not custom cabinets…does anyone have an opinion who has actually installed them??? Thanks…Pamilyn
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I installed them in my kitchen 11 years ago. They have not held up well. That said, there was an article in FHB few years back that I believe recommended them as a good mid range cabinet. I was told by the Ikea rep who handled our problems that the manufacturer was not the supplier anymore. Good Luck. paul
i've installed a couple of kitchens using ikea and was not impressed
nhb or even mills pride are much better
caulking is not a piece of trim
What is NHB and Mills pride.? I am in Wisconsin..Pamilyn
both nhb andmills pride cabinets are unassembled cabinets, mills pride from home depot and nhb is a canadian product available from home hardware stores, they may also be available stateside somewhere
i've installed 100's of kitchens and my choice of knockdowns would be the nhb cabinetscaulking is not a piece of trim
the weight of the doors requires more euro hinges than are supplied. they look good for a coupla months, then you'll probably wish you bought something else.
Have had mine for four years,
no problems at all.
Cant be beat for a frameless cab
I just bought two kitchens worth, one for our rental suite and one for us. They were a perfect match for us because a) we live far from the city in a rural area and I could deliver them myself in my truck b) the cost was reasonable c) we saved a ton of money by having me install them. One complete kitchen will easily fit in a full sized pickup truck.
As usual, a good job requires time and patience. I've seen some Ikea kitchens that looked like crap because of sloppy and uniformed installation. Take the time to get everything plumb, level and tight. When building the carcasses I glued all the dowel joints. After the doors are hung, take the time to adjust spacings and alignment.
The instructions are marginally OK. Corner cabinet instructions are not very good; it's easy to screw up on the orientation of some pieces. That being said, once you understand the construction method they go together very quickly.
Let me know if there is anything else you'd like to know, or if you'd like some pics.
Scott.
When building the carcasses I glued all the dowel joints. After the doors are hung, take the time to adjust spacings and alignment.
I thought about doing this too (gluing of dowels). I figured since they provide for lateral support it wouldn't help much.
Also, any tips on adjusting the drawers to the left/right? Still haven't figured out the best way to do it (ie. one screw at a time or adjust both screws?)
Kevin
>>>Hint: plan on using a pnuematic staple gun so you don't have to manually pound all the nails by hand.
I completely agree. You could justify the cost of a brad nailer/stapler by the time it would save in your first kitchen. I used 3/4" staples.
>>>Also, any tips on adjusting the drawers to the left/right?
Good question. I haven't had the need for this yet, but I'll let you know if I have to.
Scott.
I would love some pics...more importantly, how is the QUALITY??? Pamilyn
I'm wrapping up my kitchen with them, and would say their WAY better than mills pride.
Pros
- Good quality doors, hinges, glides
- System of mechanical fasteners is better that what some manufactures are doing (hot glue, staples, flimsy little triangles to brace the corners,etc...)
- Self closing drawers
- Metal framed drawers that will hold up well over time
- Price & ease of getting parts
- Quality hinges that install easily and are almost idiot proof
Cons
- The backing board is only 1/8". 1/4" would have been nice , but they still seem plenty stable. Hint: plan on using a pnuematic staple gun so you don't have to manually pound all the nails by hand.
- Some folks may not prefer the 3/4" particle board cabinet bodies. Personally, I don't care since I'm not going to move them after their assembled. My belief is that when people complain about IKEA furniture falling apart after a few years is because they didn't assemble it right or it got moved around quite a bit, which particle board doesn't like.
- Assembly can take a while.
If you looking for euro-style cabinets with some nice features and at a good price these are it.....
My $.02
Kevin
We will not get any more furniture from Ikea, and the friend who had several pieces was surprised at the difference in quality between her purchases of a several years ago and our purchase 2 years ago.
We got a desk for our college-bound son and there were three pieces that were incorrect (two pieces the same instead of two mirror-image pieces). Getting the replacement pieces took months, and in two of the three cases we got the _wrong_ replacement pieces.
After using the desk for two months, my son complained. The area where his wrist rested to use the mouse didn't have any finish left. We were _not_ impressed.
You should not "rest" your wrist when using a mouse. Your wrist should be a bit above the fingegtips.Not that it excuses the finish, but it's not good for the wrist.
The kitchen design discussion is interesting, some good points made all around......so many variables...good and bad chemistry between kitchens and their owners. As a cabinetmaker who likes to cook, I find most of my clients put a lot more thought into what they want in a kitchen than ChuckD is suggesting.....personally, I like a mixture of traditional cabinets and open storage, but I've known homeowners at both extremes.
IKEA: I have some dealings with companies that supply IKEA, and have toured their plants and have talked to people in that business,and I'm gonna throw this into the discussion.......IKEA is an exceptionally aggressive company when it comes to sourcing their products........few companies work harder to source products at the lowest possible price. They get their products from plants that are owned by them (Swedwood divisions), and independently owned suppliers that they work with very closely. They force these units, owned and not-owned, to bid against each other for the work.....so if you want to make a pine futon for example, you will find yourself bidding for that work against Swedwood plants and other independents all around the world.....Eastern Europe, Western Europe, and the Baltic, North America, now even China. If you win the contract, you will have to bid for the next one all over again, and someone else may be making that futon next year. The plants have to be efficient to survive in that world, and they are specialised from what I see.....the solid wood plants don't deal with furniture made from sheetstock, and vice versa.
I know for a fact that is how the solid wood furniture side works, and some of the casework, and I assume that is how the kitchen cabinet side works also. My point is that everyone is talking about IKEA cabinets as if they come out of one plant and always have, and that may not be the case......they may be coming out of different plants depending on where you are, and when you are looking.....there may be good IKEA cabinets, and bad, out there. I'm sure that's not what IKEA wants, but it seems hard to avoid.
I have seen a lot of very negative comments here about IKEA cabinets, but as a cabinetmaker, the ones I've seen have been very good, for what they are.....aggressively priced knock down cabinets. Much better than the stuff they are carrying at our brand new Home Depot (my little town is a little behind). If I was in the market and had a budget, I'd certainly be looking at them. Except, ironically, I can't....my province has two IKEA plants, but no outlet.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
I remember back in the 70's when IKEA opened in Ottawa, one of the first stores in North America, their drawers were made out of heat formed polystyrene - my folks filled the house up with the stuff. When family would visit from the States they wanted to go and checkout IKEA, there was only the one store in the Philly/Baltimore area I believe. It took awhile for them to grow in the US, but they seem to be expanding rapidly and the stores around the New York City area are unbelievably busy - they plan on putting one in Brooklyn no less.
I agree with you that they fulfill a purpose. As much as I don't like to admit it I have used them before and even recently - just glue the hell out of everything and don't ever move it. Most IKEA furniture is much cheaper than buying birch ply, never mind the hardware and labor - but in the end you get what you pay for.
I think the discussion is somewhat analagous to the vinyl siding arguement. I personally don't like it, would rather use wood and deal with maintaining it, but I (try) not to knock those who do (except for the house on my street that stands out like a sore thumb..).
PS The Swedish meatballs at the cafeteria aren't bad - best dining in NJ.<g>
Isn't ikea the Swedish word for particle board? Give them a year and they'll be falling apart, big chunks broken out where the hinges break loose. I've even turned down Ikea stuff for free.
You'd do much better to start from scratch with some one by and plywood. Especially for those simple modern cabinets.
-- J.S.
Have you ever installed these? Have you seen them after a few years? I need to know first hand information. I get all kinds of opinions..LOL...Pamilyn
Consumer Reports did a report on kitchen cabinets, and IKEA got very good marks. They use high quality hardware, and I believe they got a "Best Buy" rating. IIRC, they rated much higher than some more expensive cabinets, and were just below the most expensive (but were cheaper by far). We're planning on using them for our kitchen. They may not be the best quality, but we're putting our money in the things that aren't visible, but matter more. Cabinets will be relatively easy to upgrade in 10 years--the foundation, not so much.
Jo
Do you have any first hand knowledge of these cabinets? Have you put them in yet? Do you know anyone who has? Pamilyn
I don't have any personal experience with them. An architect recommended them (said he used them in his house) to help us keep within our budget--and they are also considered "green", because they are made from sustainable resources, and made with low VOC emissions (European standards).I copied the following from the Consumer Reports website:We tested 14 kitchen-cabinet sets from six major manufacturers. MasterBrand and Masco make more than half of all cabinets, from basic brands like Kitchen Classics and Mills Pride to premium brands like Diamond and Omega. For each, we chose 21-inch-wide base cabinets--a common stock size--with one drawer and one pullout shelf, and 21-inch-wide, 30-inch-tall wall cabinets with fixed shelves. Our major findings:
Price doesn’t guarantee performance. Salespeople will tell you that you get what you pay for, and to a degree, that panned out. Premium cabinets withstood heat, water moisture, and other abuse best overall. Indeed, readers we surveyed who bought the least-expensive cabinets were likelier to have problems.We found strong lower-priced performers, however.The ready-to-assemble Ikea (4) outperformed much more expensive units, despite its low price. High-quality drawer hardware and doors and a robust mounting strip helped. You’ll also find reasonably priced, preassembled cabinets such as the Diamond (3), Thomasville (5), and Shenandoah (6),that offer more options. But any judged at least very good should weather most wear and tear. Brand & Name Retailer Type Price Omega Expo Premium $1,055
Fieldstone1/2-inch Expo Premium 1,020
DiamondPlatinum Lowe's Premium 630
Ikea Ikea Basic 290
Thomasville Home Depot Midlevel 500
Shenandoah Lowe's Midlevel 435
KraftMaid Lowe's,Home Depot Midlevel 510
Wellborn Premier Local retailers Midlevel 880
Mills Pride Home Depot Basic 260
American Woodmark Designer Series Lowe's,Home Depot Basic 350
Kitchen Classics Select Lowe's Basic 265
emier Home Depot Basic 320
Merillat Deluxe Local retailers Midlevel 475
Kitchen Classics Lowe's Basic 350
Oops. That table didn't turn out at all, hopefully you can still decipher it--they're listed in order of the CR ratings.Jo
I was in Lowes on Sunday. No, I'm not proud of it but I did ride the Harley there if that makes it any better.
Anyway, has anyone used the American Woodmark that they carry? If so, what was your opinion of them?
I'm getting ready to do the kitchen in my townhouse and I'm not spending a fortune because to be honest the neighborhood is so overpriced I don't think I'll get it back.
Anyway, if these thngs are any good at all I ahve to wonder why anyone would bother with the knockdowns like IKEA and Mills Pride for the price difference.
Avoid the Shenendoah cabinets at lowes. Have a customer that just sent back $17000 worth of cabs from them, after 3 months and 3 tries to get it right from the manufacturer. I looked at them today and a 12" base was 3/8" out of square. The finish...... wasn't. several dents ----- and they were drop shipped.
He's going custom now. I've heard their Kraftmaid is good though.
this whole thread just pains me .....
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Sorry Jeff...I am from cooks talk..what kind of a cooking knife do you have? Cooking pots? Just kidding..I have a very high end kitchen right now. As a matter of fact it won a design contest for best kitchen for Sub Zero last year...Problem is this..we can't afford the taxes on this house anymore so we are moving to a groovy 1960's house that is worth about $230,000. in our market. I don't want to put a ton of money into the kitchen because we will probably not get it out in ten years..I am a chef so I will be putting in high end appliances ( that I can take with me..Viking stove, etc, etc,...) instead of cabinets. Does this make sensce(sp) to you? Or do you think spending less on cabinets is a waste of time? You have to realize we will only be here maybe 15 years. I want a really funky kitchen not a palace this time around..something fun...What do you think...your short comment didn't tell much...do tell...do you have first hand info???? or just a snob comment...no problem either way..I'm sort of a snob but I have heard IKEA cabinets are really good quality for the price (whatever that means) I have heard really good hardware...I bought top of the line cabinets and the hinges SUCK and the doors are WARPING...so I am not convinced that money equels quality...Pamilyn
Pamilyn-
You make a good point... you have a high standard for cooking equipment and apprieciate it. I'm sure a lot of the contractors and carpenters here who will tell you Ikea is crap and you should only buy the expensive, top end cabinets have average cooking appliances.
Jeff and others will tell you Ikea is crap because they are craftsman who want the best (of course, who doesn't?). Craftsman, take Norm Abrahams from this old house for example, like to thumb their nose at particle board. Its' evil to them.... and I agree birch ply is much better. BUT.... from what I've seen installing my Ikea cabinets is that Ikea puts quality where it matters most. Like the doors (good clear wood), hinges, fastening system, etc...
I think Ikea cabinets make good sense for you from what you've described. Do you have a room (small bathroom for example) where you can install a couple as a dry run? This is what my wife and I did to get a good feel for them before buying a whole kitchen.
Kevin
I would talk to a local cab maker or a local cab shop. They probably will be able to get you a better quality cab for around the same price. They can and probably be able to work with you on it. Such as maybe you do the finishing for example. It will cut down on the cost of the cabs and you'll get better quality.
The problem with going with a IKEA or blowes or Home D***do, is the added cost . The cost include , delivery,assembly tear out , prepping, installation ect. This all adds to the cost of the cabs. They are unflexable when dealing with you.
A local cab maker/shop can deal deal with you on some of these cost. No assembly of the cabs for example will save on labor...You can install your self and the cabs will be assembled and you can measure the cabs upfront and if you have any questions they (the cab maker/shop) will be to answer any questions and help you.
They can help even to the point of ripping a filler strip for you or if you goober one up they can make another one licketly split and you continue with the install. Where Blowes/IKEA will have to order one for you.
I think that is why my hero Jeff Buck commented what he did. He's been around to long and knows whats up. Benn there done that sort of thing.
So I would check out all the options first. You said your only going to be in the house for 15 years or so.
I am in the same boat as you.
I built my own.
Not that hard.
But in your case make sure the cabs you buy will hold up that long and be in good shape when its time to sell.
The kitchen as Im sure you know is the #1 selling point in a house. So unless you plan on doing this again in 14 years I would be sure you do it right the first time.
Spend the extra money and get it done right. Pay me now or pay me later
IMO Buckism: Will show you the the way
I have a problem with this whole thread in general. Why are people even putting cabinets in there kitchens? If you have ever been in a professional kitchen, you would notice that there are not cabinets. I don't care who builds them, cabinets in a kitchen are going to get greasy, scratched, dented, broken etc. When I designed my kitchen, (and I am a real professional Chef), we did not really put in any cabinets. We have a 8' x 12' walk in pantry for storing dry goods and misc cooking utensils. Pots pans etc are stored on open shelves below the work areas were they will be used. Utensils are store on wire racks hung from the walls where they are easily accessed. Serving and dinnerware are stored in cabinets, the only ones, in the dining areas wher they will be used. Almost all of the tables, shelving etc in the kitchen are stainless steel, aluminum or combination of the two. The only wood cabinets I have are either accent pieces that aren't used that much or are things like the wood top on the baking table.
Now I know for the professional carpenters here this would not be something you would want to sell. No custom work installing, no repeat business every 10 years or so remodeling kitchens, no repair work on broken cabinets, doors, drawers etc. But if everyone built like this, ie built to work and last and not just look good for the install pictures, maybe we wouldn't have so many discussions on junk cabinets, who has the best etc. But then what would all of the boxes do with all of those glossy ads that they use to convince people that this is how "professional kitchens" are built.
different strokes for different folks......storage for one is a issue for some (like me) room is another issue and many many issues are involved.
If most of us had the bucks we wouldnt cook at all hire someone to do it for us....
but aient a perfect world
we are all different
if we were tthe same
we all be driving dodges Buckism: Will show you the the way
ding ding ding. We have a winner.
I've installed over 100 kitchens, and find them all impractical. Everyone wants to have a living room, not a kitchen. I'd rather have a smallish work area with a casual dining/sitting room near by. People commit a TON of square footage to their kitchens. Then, they waste it all by covering it with cabinetry, and huge islands.
Walk in pantry is the only way to go. Open shelving, easy to access. Keep all the groceries in one area, where you can see them all, and really know what you have. Honestly, I think people keep way to much food in their homes. How many cans of green beans do you really need? Most people have food in their cabinets they haven't seen since they moved in.
I have to agree. If the kitchen is really meant to be cooked in, and not just photographed, cabinets can be dispensed with. I'd much rather have a good island with open storage, and a really well-planned pantry where dry goods and things like tableware and rarely-used pots and pans can be stored out of sight, yet still accessible. Whoever it was who noted that cabinets in a kitchen are essentially grease-catchers is right on!
"...very little has ever been accomplished by complacent people." Billmon
http://costofwar.com/
Dustin
I have to disagree with you. I've probably installed 500-700 kitchens, built and installed maybe 100 more.
You call it impractical, I call it practical. Everybody does not want the same thing, thank God!
I'm a woodworker and I like the cabinets, my kitchen is functional and looks nice. I don't want to see pots and pans in the kitchen.
I don't find it to difficult to open up a cabinet door and pull out a frying pan, guess that's cause the little effort to do so is worth it to hide the damn pan.
I agree with you on the walk in pantry but if you've really installed 100 kitchens did you happen to notice that not all of them had the room for a walk in pantry?
Doug
not all of them had the room for a walk in pantry?
Obviously not. It would have to be in the original design of the house, or addition.
You call it impractical, I call it practical.
Have you ever worked in a restaurant or commercial style kitchen? I have. They are designed by chefs, with ergonomics in mind. Traditional kitchen cabinets evolved from furniture pieces.
Like you said to each his own. Just stating MY opinion.
if you've really installed 100 kitchens
No need to call me a liar.
Edited 8/10/2005 3:49 pm ET by dustinf
if you've really installed 100 kitchens
No need to call me a liar.
If you took it that way my apologies, never meant it that way.
But as you stated a lot of the houses were not designed to accommodate a walk in pantry. These people have no other choice then to stack there can goods in a cupboard, some people don't want everybody to see how many cans of peas they have in inventory.
Yes I have done some work in commercial restaurants with of course, commercial kitchens, but that's not what were talking about. this is a house where the HO wants to do something different with there kitchen to suit their needs, that's fine but if you turn it into a commercial kitchen your going to have a tuff time selling the place in 15 years.
Better put a little fluff in there for the next HO.
Doug
Better put a little fluff in there for the next HO.
Fluff is what we get paid for. :-)
Resale value is a good point.
I have done some work in commercial restaurants with of course, commercial kitchens, but that's not what were talking about
What I meant was as a cook, or in my case dishwasher/prep cook.
LOL...being a chef and cooking enthusiast I had to laugh. If I am going to spend $200.00 plus on a pan I want someone, myself included to SEE it. :) Pamilyn
edit for spelling
Edited 8/10/2005 4:30 pm ET by pamilyn
$200 pan, $20 pan, it all taste the same to me.
Besides, my grandma was the best cook I ever knew, she never had a $200 pan! :)
Doug
$200 pan, $20 pan,
That's what I say, but the retort I hear is "Substitute the word 'pan', for the word 'drill"
Then, I try to argue my tools are for work, but it's a losing battle.
"Substitute the word 'pan', for the word 'drill"
Hey, my drill is not only a tool but a friend as well! It deserves to be seen.
Doug
Too true. I'm sure you boys have some mean "Tools" LOL....off to the corner I go...Pamilyn
I have to say that I am just at the tail end of putting in an IKEA kitchen and the whole thing has gone together much quicker and with fewer headaches than I expected.
The customer had opted for a totally non-traditional look because this "space" (read: One big room basically) is really a commercial space and they are using it for their place in the city.
I think that for the color, BRIGHT red, it turned out great! I am still waiting on the black counter tops to really see how much these things stand out. The other interesting thing about the cabinets is that the toe kick was left open and we used their metal legs. It really is a good look, although I am glad I don't have to clean under there! It has a mix of glass front doors and bright red ones.
So for a kitchen that was done with a tight budget in mind I think that it turned out just great.
I whole heartedly agree on using a pneumatic staple gun though, those cabinets can be a bit time consuming to nail by hand!
going to spend $200.00 plus on a pan I want someone, myself included to SEE it
Not only that, but I want those who know, to appreciate the seasoning on the Alclad or the like. Those who are bothered by my "dirty pans with the dark stuff" on them, never seem to mind the chow served from same. Those that make fuss about my untidy pans can find themselves not invited to the next gumbo, or elan en crout evoluution, too <g> . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I've found room to include a pantry in some very small kitchens.Corners are one good place to put them. Many kitchens with "U" or "L" shaped layouts have a corner that is difficult to use. Often a small pantry can repace 4-6 cabinets and then one door provides access to the stuff that wound be in several cabinets (can make finding things easy and save $ on cabinets). The small corner pantry in the attached photos allows space for broom & mop, trash can, etc. and has a light and switch.
I totaly agree with you here. I have only three uppers in my kitchen. One for dishes and glassware, one is a "spice cabinet next to the stove, the other is my "Coffee" "cabinet above the coffee maker that houses cups, coffee and sugar. I have a small pull out pantry. We are just two of us, and we shop every other day or so. Pick a recipe, and go buy the ingredients. I know alot of people can't do this who live out in the sticks though. Pamilyn
my "Coffee" "cabinet
lol. My coffee cabinet is the metal can that maxwell house provides. I'm not very picky, as long as it is strong, and was hot at some point.
I technically live alone(you know make the grandparents happy), but we shop Sunday evening, and try to plan for the week. Every Sunday, before the trip to the store, I clean out all the left overs, and parishables. We try to stick with a fresh produce/meat diet(read: no canned goods), and buy small quantities of dry goods.
Edited 8/10/2005 4:35 pm ET by dustinf
Everyone wants to have a living room, not a kitchen
True enough.
But there's a reason for that, that's where people go. it where they hang out at my house (even if not an eat-in). It's often where I wind up when visiting other people's houses.
That seems to be a modern way of life.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I have to say, this is one of my biggest complaints about current home design. If there is one thing that I absolutely do not want to see in my kitchen, it isGUESTS!Besides, if company congregates in the kitchen, where do I hide the help?
if company congregates in the kitchen, where do I hide the help?
That's easy, either the formal Living Room, or the formal Dining Room--nobody stays in either of those for very long <g>
I absolutely do not want to see in my kitchen, it is
GUESTS!
Well, there's guests and there's guests <g>. Usually the best way to tell which is which is to hand them a spoon and have them stir the roux . . . <g>
Now, if your replace the coffee table with a cooler, and the end table by the couch with a kegerator--in view of the big screen tv, that'll get bunches of them out of the kitchen.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Chuck
In the past few months we just completed a kitchen for a chef, seen on TV every weekend, has a chain of restaurants, the whole enchilada!
The kitchen that we built for him has a combination of open space, blind cabinets, drawers, pull outs etc. etc...... Its one beautiful kitchen if I do say so myself!
I'd guess that this kitchen minus the pizza oven, the two convection ovens, the two commercial microwaves, the two prep areas, plus a main sink area, the three dishwashers......... probably cost in the neighborhood of $50-$65,000. It has an island that is 14' X 5', very well laid out, and it has some decorative elements as well.
You may not agree with the way that he wanted his kitchen but that really doesn't matter, people like different things.
I personally wouldn't want a kitchen the way you describe, I'd guess that this guy that we built the kitchen for wouldn't like it either. Doesn't make either of you two right or wrong.
I also did some work on a house/complex that has 8 kitchens on the property! All equipped with the latest Viking/Wolfe ovens, cook tops, etc. etc........, and this guy cant fry and egg!
All fancy kitchens are not just to look at, some are actually used!
Doug
In the past few months we just completed a kitchen for a chef, seen on TV every weekend, has a chain of restaurants, the whole enchilada
Most TV chef's are so far removed from the restaurant world it isn't even funny. Just like if we started talking about the tv contractors and wood workers. These TV chef's don't own restaurants they have there names put on restaurants by corporations. Most haven't worked in a kitchen for years.
You may not agree with the way that he wanted his kitchen but that really doesn't matter, people like different things
People can like whatever they want. I don't really care. I whole point is that kitchens have been designed and foiled on the american public by cabinet manufacturers, kitchen designers and installers. People who want to sell more cabinets. Most people don't know what they want they know what they're told they want. Because they see it in a glossy magazine, or on a DIY show. Know body tells someone spend 50k on cabinets and oh by the way you're going to have to replace these in 10-15 years because they will fall apart. Unless of course you don't use them, which most people want. Or unless you move, which most people will, because they can't afford where they are living ie McMansions, or because they need a bigger McMansion.
And we could change this discussion to many components of the house. Remember the discussion earlier concerning what is your least favorite housing trend. Many of the professional GC's were chiming in on components that are either unnecessary of visually unappealing or both. And why, because designers and builders of these c*** vinyl villages have convinced people that this is what you like and everyone needs it.
All fancy kitchens are not just to look at, some are actually used!
I would bet a lot more are not used to their potential then are. These kitchens are mostly used by people who entertain not cook.
chuck
Chuck
Most TV chef's are so far removed from the restaurant world it isn't even funny. Just like if we started talking about the TV contractors and wood workers. These TV chef's don't own restaurants they have there names put on restaurants by corporations. Most haven't worked in a kitchen for years.
You might be right about most TV chefs, I don't claim to know any part of that business.
This particular guy does own restaurants, isn't as far removed from the scene as you suggest. He's building a cooking school on his property as well as a vineyard setup. He is very involved in the day to day goings on. Seen him out at the site numerous times, as well as in the shop. He was very involved in this process as well as his restaurants.
I'm not going to sit here and sing praises about the guy all morning, wouldn't serve any purpose, Just suggesting that you may be wrong in this case. I also concede that he may be the exception, as I said, I don't pretend to know your business.
I agree with you that most of the fancy kitchens that we or any other co. installs is for looks more then functionality, hell that goes with out saying. I think we can agree that that's probably fair to say about most of the components in mansions.
Couldn't we also apply that same theory to your profession?
People don't need to eat fancy meals, they don't need to go out and have a chef prepare (here's where I should insert some fancy azzed meal, but the reality is I don't know of any!)a fine dinner for them.
Why don't they stay home in there plain kitchen and bake a potato in the microwave and throw a burger on the stove? How would you like your job if that's all you could do? Wouldn't be much fun now would it?
For Gods sake man, the whole consumption thing goes into play here, for my job as a cabinetmaker and yours as a chef. Neither one of us serves a purpose that makes sense from the standpoint of "need". We'd probably both be out of a job if all that was required was the bare essentials.
In another post to someone else you mention that your SIL just had a kitchen designed and she didn't have any say in the design, don't blame that on the designer, where was she at during this process. Did she want to have an input? If so and she was hiring them then I don't know how it works in your hood but here if I'm hiring I get what I want.
I have nothing against custom cabinetry, I just feel that it has gotten out of hand with the excess that is going into modern kitchens.
You have a valid point, same can be said about a lot of things.
Me; All fancy kitchens are not just to look at, some are actually used!
You; I would bet a lot more are not used to their potential then are. These kitchens are mostly used by people who entertain not cook.
I wouldn't take that bet! I'm guessing your right, but so that I don't have to go back to doing track-home work I'll make a deal with you, you don't tell anybody about the ostentatious kitchens and I wont tell them that they really dont need fine food either.
Now, back to the discussion about Ikea cabinets
Doug
Couldn't we also apply that same theory to your profession?
People don't need to eat fancy meals, they don't need to go out and have a chef prepare (here's where I should insert some fancy azzed meal, but the reality is I don't know of any!)a fine dinner for them.
Why don't they stay home in there plain kitchen and bake a potato in the microwave and throw a burger on the stove? How would you like your job if that's all you could do? Wouldn't be much fun now would it?
Yes we could, but that is where I differ from most professionals. I wish people would stay home and cook more. I think it is one of the things that has ruined this country is families not eating together anymore, not just from that family stand point but from a health issue. When I have parties at my home for family, and we might have 40-100 people at a time. When people want to know what to bring I always tell them, I don''t care what it is just make sure it is made by you. You would not believe how much stress this causes some people, won't even come to the party rather than make something from scratch.
This is why I scratch my head so much when I read threads here bashing the DIY's. I encourage people to cook, share my recipes and techniques, want them to stay home and eat there own food and not eat out. I don't understand why some many people that get involved here have such a hateful attitute towards people that want to try to do something on there own.
When our great-grandfathers where alive, most would have cringed at the thought of hiring someone to build a garage, or pour concrete etc. So what if it isn't perfect, if I'm doing it for my self than why is the professional so concerned. If you screw up your cake or make bad beef stew. Should I say you should never cook again, only come to my restaurant and make a meal.
That would be like me going over to the cooking thread and bashing people for asking how to make a cake, or cook a roast. Better left to the professionals, if you don't know don't ask.
Sorry for the rant.
I really do not begrudge any professional carpenter for selling what people want and making money doing it. I do it every day in my profession. It's the advertisers that I don't like, convincing people they need stuff because everybody else has it. IKEA cabinets included. There back on topic.
chuck
Chuck - I enjoy reading your posts for the same reason I enjoy a lot of the posters here - because I enjoy learning from people who have an intensity about what they do. But I have to disagree when you say This is why I scratch my head so much when I read threads here bashing the DIY's. I encourage people to cook, share my recipes and techniques, want them to stay home and eat there own food and not eat out. I don't understand why some many people that get involved here have such a hateful attitute towards people that want to try to do something on there own.
First off I don't find threads here "bashing" DIY'ers, and I don't find "hateful attitudes". I think there was one thread where someone was frustrated by a DIY'er getting in over his head, with poor results, and then hiring the pro to finish it, and make it look right. So lets say I cook a crappy meal, unhealthy ingredients, rotten tomatoes, etc., no thought to taste combinations, unsanitary cooking conditions. Then I call you up "Hey Chuck, can you come over and throw in some of your legendary herbs and spices to make this meal edible, and then serve it to my guests", how would you feel? My guess is you'd feel a little like that poster did. He wasn't bashing DIY'ers, just venting. (Hey, we're all DIY'ers outside of our field of professional expertise.)
When our great-grandfathers where alive, most would have cringed at the thought of hiring someone to build a garage, or pour concrete etc. So what if it isn't perfect, if I'm doing it for my self than why is the professional so concerned. If you screw up your cake or make bad beef stew. Should I say you should never cook again, only come to my restaurant and make a meal.
Can-do is a good spirit, and no one is criticizing it. But if the slapdash chef screws up the beef stew, the guests are entitled to gripe a little when among friends and peers. People here who are passionate about what they do are going to have strong feelings about it. Do you think Beethoven could have listened to modern rap music, and said "Hey, if they like it, that's all that matters"? I don't think so. I had an art teacher once who was a very talented painter. Someone asked him why he didn't teach beginning painting. He said the colors new students mixed made him nauseous. My point is people who are talented and passionate about something tend to have a heightened sense of propriety and aesthetics, and you can call them elitist or snobbish, but I don't see it that way.
That would be like me going over to the cooking thread and bashing people for asking how to make a cake, or cook a roast. Better left to the professionals, if you don't know don't ask.
Lots of DIY'ers come here and ask questions, and I'm always blown away by the number, and thoroughness, of the responses. Rather than "bashing" them, they are welcomed, guided, educated, and encouraged. I think most professionals, like myself, respect a DIY'er who does his (or her) homework, asks the hard questions ahead of time, and enters into a project with a respect for what is entailed in producing a quality end-result.View Image
Edited 8/13/2005 12:47 am ET by Huck
Your point are very thoughtful and well stated. Maybe from a professional point of view you see it differently, but from a DIY person many times I read it different.
I agree that many of the pro's are thoughtful with there responses and are willing to help, and I am always glad to see when they respond. But what I do notice many times are threads going unanswered or very little response to novice questions. Like the question is so basic, if you don't know that you shouldn't even be picking up an answer.
So lets say I cook a crappy meal, unhealthy ingredients, rotten tomatoes, etc., no thought to taste combinations, unsanitary cooking condition
I know that you are exaggerating as I was earlier, but I have been in that situation many times. Phone calls from desperate relatives, hey I put in way too much salt fix my soup. My sauce broke and is curdled save it before my party. My cake didn't rise what can I serve for dessert. I think the reason amateurs come here is because you are the pro's and have had to deal with thos situations before. Don't tell me you've never had a sub that screwed something up and you had to save the project. Or you found someone working in unsafe conditions that they didn't know were unsafe and you had to point it out to them and fix it. Granted, you are getting paid to do that in the situation and you are not here. But the pros that come here are volunteering there expertise, and I would say if someone doesn't have something nice to say
don't say anything at all.
It doesn't bring anything to the discussion to tell a novice that they screwed up. They already know that, that is why they are here. And if they are blaming someone else when they post there question, we should be able to see through the words, that they are only trying to cover up their inadaquacies by passing the blame. But we should be able to see what the real question is and answer it for them with out pointing out what we already know.
My point is people who are talented and passionate about something tend to have a heightened sense of propriety and aesthetics, and you can call them elitist or snobbish, but I don't see it that way.
I agree but can't we try to pass that on without being judgmental?
Yeah, sometimes questions go unanswered. Not often, but when it does happen, its usually because the question is too vague, lacking in enough detail or explanation to post an intelligent reply to. And then someone will usually post a list of needed info. in order to clarify.Yeah, the world would be a better place if people who didn't have something nice to say didn't say anything at all. But everyone who comes here carries with them the baggage of past experiences. If we want them to keep coming back, or if we want to keep coming back, we have to tolerate a reasonable amount of these issues showing up in the posts. Like you said "see through the words", or as the common expression has it "read between the lines". But thats a two-way street. You say posters who have the answers should shrug off the blame-shifting, and just give the technical information needed. But then posters who have the questions should also be able to shrug off a little professional frustration showing up along with their needed information.What I see as a professional is a trend in our society, in our economic and social system, to undervalue the work of the artisan, the craftsman, the small businessman. People think its OK for an automotive executive to pull down 6-digit figures - we pay for that every time we buy a new vehicle. People think its OK for movie stars and movie producers to make several million dollars for one movie - we pay for that every time we shell out to go to the show, or buy a video. Lawyers routinely charge $200-$300/hr. for making phone calls, driving to the courthouse, etc. And routinely get $5,000.00 non-refundable retainers for work not yet performed. All of which is legal and ethical and acceptable to our society. We glorify lawyers - countless millions sit every night to watch highly overpaid (in my opinion) actors portraying highly overpaid (in my opinion) lawyers. How glamorous!But now if a contractor charges enough to buy health insurance, pay worker's comp and liability, cover his overhead, and come away with a small profit, he's ripping people off. Charging too much. A crook.I'm going to diverge a little here, to make a point. Once, during the Olympics, I saw a reporter with a "hidden camera" "catch" a collectibles dealer getting some ice skates signed by an Olympic athlete, to resell. It was presented like an expose, like some criminal caught in the act. I mean, if the guy's a collectibles dealer, and he's got the initiative to go to the Olympics and stand in long lines to get some autographs to sell, then I say More power to him! But no, in our society that's unethical, because he's a small businessman out to make a profit off a little kid who's a fan of the Olympics star, and whose parents are going to pay the inflated price on ebay. Big business does it every day, and that's OK. Disneyland charges what, $50 - $80 a head, and that's all right. And what's their markup on cokes and hot dogs - about 800%? But a small businessman marking an item up $50 because it was signed by an Olympic star - that's downright unethical!I've actually been told, on a bid job, where the HO agreed on the price as fair and equitable for the work, that I made "too much" money at the end of the job! I've lost countless bids on projects that I put a lot of time and effort into, because some bootleg contractor or handyman would do it for less. I've been doing this work professionally for over 20 years. I have a large selection of tools and professional knowledge, but almost no money in the bank, no savings, no health insurance, no retirement, and haven't had or been able to afford a vacation in 18 years. Yeah, I'm working hard on improving my business acumen to remedy that. But that's part of the baggage I bring here with me. If a professional has a little frustration with a HO insinuating that his job is easy and anyone can do it, or he's overcharging for it, then believe me brother, I know where that frustration is coming from.If enough professionals are as frustrated as I am (and they are, I know from hanging out here), then some of that will bleed over into the answers posted. To the HO's, the DIY'ers, and to each other. And it does, on a regular basis. I've been flamed here as much as any HO or DIY'er, and I think at one time or another, we all have. But we suck it up, and keep coming back, because we enjoy learning, sharing, and hanging out with the gang, in spite.So welcome to BreakTime, where the pro's, coarse as we are, hang with the DIY'ers, and hash out the logistics of building, remodeling, renovating, and running a business. Its a great place, with a wealth of information that it would take years and years of experience, and volumes and volumes of technical data, to accumulate otherwise. Now please start a thread on kitchen design, and tell us what you know, because we have a lot to learn from your ideas on kitchen layout and efficiency!
Edited 8/14/2005 10:33 am ET by Huck
Why are people even putting cabinets in there kitchens?
Because e'erybody else does--same as why people live in subdivisions of McMansions. They don't know any different, and it's hard to miss what you don't know. Just like any other good design element.
Now, I think you can make a good case for casework in a kitchen, particularly one not used (or cleaned) by employees. The cabinetry we used today is an outgrowth of furniture used in eat-in kitchens in houses over the years. Ok, I happen, IMHO, to also feel as you do, that there's too much furniture in kitchens. But, I'm at least a little bit unique in that.
We have a similar outlook on a kitchen from having been employed in one. It's a place a person works and creates--therefore it ought to be simple to clean (you clean-able by some one simple <g> . . . )
The Arts & Crafts kitchens were very austere for similar reasons. One had a cook to work in there, easy-to-clean was the driving goal.
Now, I like open, and I tolerate a lot of "on display" in my kitchen. I know people who almost "lock up" if there is any visible "clutter" not "put away," too. They need more cabinets to put stuff "away" in, too (they also complain about how long it takes to cook things, too <g>). These are people who do not have a favorite comal, or the seasoned-for-eggs skillet, or make salsa often often enough to leave the mini processor out all ther time, too. To each their own.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Chuckd, I too am a professional chef. I considered that until my DH reminded me what a slob I am in the kitchen. All those open shelves covered in bread crumbs, flour, grease etc, etc, did not appeal to me. Been there ....done that... at work. Don't need to do all that cleaning at home too!! Besides there is the aesthetic reason. Also, I sincerely doubt a true professional kitchen would sell very well in 15 years. Thanks for the input though. Pamilyn
All those open shelves covered in bread crumbs, flour, grease etc, etc, did not appeal to me. Been there ....done that... at work.
I don't want to get in to a discussion about professional chef's but, shelves covered in grease, flour, etc. I would say there is nothing professional about that. I have chef'd, sous chef'd and owned kitchens for many years. Would never allow that anywhere, anyway.
Don't need to do all that cleaning at home too!! Aren't you planning on cleaning your cabinets? Don't you think grease and grime is going to get into every nook and cranny of those cabinets? If you cook at home like I do, as a chef you know how hard it would be to keep traditional wood cabinets clean.
chuck
All I can say is: shuddddderrrr.
Chuck, you like to cook, which I think is a fundamental difference between us. I do like to cook, but my culinary aspirations would be satisfied with maybe 12 times a year spent in the kitchen. For the other 1083 meals, if I had somebody to cook and clean it up for me, that would be just grand. However I am forced into my kitchen by finances. I need cabinets. Something to hold the many pots and cooking stuff that gets used maybe a couple of times a year - OK I admit it, I have some stuff that hasn't been used in years. Those serving trays that get used once a year (unless my in-laws do Thanksgiving). When I think about having it all exposed, having to dust it regularly, I shudddderrrr. And I need a hidden place for plates and cups. With two small children we have a large collection of plasticware, not suitable for display.
And, I'd much rather be surrounded by nice warm wood than stainless steel. Wire shelves? Just a place for gunk to collect. Yes, cabinets get stuff on them, but then you just wipe down the cabs, you don't need to clean the contents as well. The problem with open storage is that everything being stored gets splashed when the cup of juice goes flying, not just the door and carcass.
I understand but that's my point exactly. We have been conditioned by the cabinet companies to think that we need those nice warm cabinets to store things that we need once a year. Why would they want us to keep things in a walk in pantry that they aren't going to make any money selling us something. Cabinets are a modern creation foiled on us by cabinet manufacturers and clever marketing companies. A big consipiracy I say, worthy of a government investigation.
Walk in pantries require more square footage - you need a place for the door to swing and a place to stand. And they do nothing to keep the dust off the contents. Cabinets provide the same storage needs with less square footage required. My house has a pantry, but the only place they could make room for it was in the basement, so anything that ends up in the pantry stays in the pantry until the boyscouts come around looking for canned goods. I don't think we've been conditioned by the cabinet makers that we need them, I think cabinets are lovely, convenient way to store things where we use them. I wouldn't mind having a pantry in my kitchen as well, but I'd still want cabinets. Cabinets are not a modern creation. In the colonial era they still needed places to put their dishes and they built hutches for that purpose.
You are right. Most homes are not designed to have a practical walk in pantry that really works. If what you are saying holds true. Why don't we wrap every wall in our house with cabinets to keep all of the stuff that we have sitting every where else. You have nic nacs around that you have to dust. Don't tell me you dust things inside your other storage cabinets.
I don't have a problem with storage cabinets, and yes I realize that we have had hutches for years. My problem is with the banks of 75k$ worth of cabinets that people think that they have to have. And why, because when they look in magazines or go the the big box, that is what they see and what they are told they have to have.
If anyone could work with me in my kitchen for 30 minutes they could see how much more efficient it is not to have cabinets.
Maybe we should start a new thread about kitchen design and best practices and see where it leads?
"Maybe we should start a new thread about kitchen design and best practices and see where it leads?"
That's what I been tellin' ya! Or maybe start a thread on ergonomic (user-friendly) housing. Now its not only kitchens that fall into this category. I see a lot of homes that aren't really working for people as well as they could be.
In my neighborhood, we have no front porches. I'd love to add one if I had the budget, but right now I don't. However, every summer evening you can see people setting up heir lawnchairs out in their garage. To me, that says something's missing in the design of these houses.
Others are using their garage for storage, and have nowhere to park their cars out of the hot 100 degree plus weather, or out of the rain in winter.
I have a wall cabinet in the hallway for sheets, towels, etc. About 25% of it is used efficiently, the rest is just storage for stuff that we never use, and have largely forgotten is there.
All the houses in my neighborhood have a walkway from the driveway to the front door. When two cars are parked in the driveway you can't get to it from the sidewalk, hence, no walkway from the sidewalk to the front door.
Even front and backyards often seem inefficient to me. Most people in my neighborhood don't even use their backyards, and their front yards are just for show. Again, for the large percentage of our paycheck that goes to pay for housing, I'd think we'd squeeze some living space out of every sqare foot, one way or the other. Not so.
"Why don't we wrap every wall in our house with cabinets to keep all of the stuff that we have sitting every where else. "
Well, Yeah! Built-in storage is a major feature in my book. I plan on building cabinets for the master bedroom to replace dressers, and I also want a wall of cabinets in the living room for books. Nicknacks are currently on shelves and it's a pain - I would love some glass doored cabinets to cut down on dusting.
I guess we'll have to say de gustibus non est disputanum!
A good place to start a thread about intelligent kitchen design would either be Cooks Talk (Fine Cooking) or House Chat (Home Design).
Chuck, If this kitchen design discussion ever gets shifted over to its own thread please post a message in this thread redirecting those of us following it here.If you know of any kitchen design books that are "thinking outside the box" please list them. Ideally you would just write a handbook of your ideas but I suspect you like most of us here don't have the time.Whether or not I or any of us agree with your design philosophy is beside the point. What counts is that you are encouraging us to jump off the bandwagon and do what makes sense rather than following the herd.I am all for a pantry and will be remodeling my kitchen in the next few years. Unfortunately never having lived with a well designed pantry I don't know what features work best. Is it just shelves for ingredients? Do you include a countertop in the pantry? Do you store small appliances or pots/pans in the pantry?I like cooking but have always just made do with whatever kitchen I had. I would love to find some guidelines on an ergonomic and efficient kitchen before starting in on my next and hopefully last personal kitchen remodel.Karl
Did a house a few years back, beautiful kitchen and house for that matter. They had the best pantry I have ever seen. It was about 6 or 7 feet wide maybe 8 feet long glass door on the 6' end one side had an extra refridgerator and counter to the end then 12" shelving wrapped around to the other side of the door. It was a u shape but worked great, you could go in see what you wanted on the open shelves set stuff on the counter ect. The counter had closed bases. Most pantries are so tight or setup wrong you can't get in to get anything.
Actually, proper pantries should have cabinets with doors that close, and counter space down at least one side. You put a tray on the counter, and load it with the things you need from the pantry. To do it right, you should have two pantries, the cook's pantry, and the butler's pantry. The butler's panty also gets a sink for washing up the place settings and serving dishes.
Now you can really sell some remodeling and cabinet work. ;-)
-- J.S.
I just need the cook and butler to go with it!
Right you are. My wife used to manage a restaurant. The big difference between home and restaurant kitchen design is that the restaurant has to be cost effective to clean to health department standards. Of course there are many other differences, but that's the one that gets most of the effort and attention.
-- J.S.
The big difference between home and restaurant kitchen design is that the restaurant has to be cost effective to clean to health department standards
Exactly and don't you want your home kitchen to be the same. Just as many people get sick in dirty home kitchens as they do in restaurant kitchens. I saw a report not too long ago that was talking about the "stomach flu" In the majority of the cases it is some type of food poisoning. Easier to get than what you think and not always deadly as in the Jack in the Box case.
chuck
Good infoDo you have any books on alternative kitchen design you can recommend or did you glean all that from personal experience?It is funny how people value their cabinets as a vital kitchen component but how poorly most are utilized.If you do have any books or websites you can recommend for kitchen design I would appreciate you sharing them.thanks
karl
Don't really have any books or specific information. What I would recommend though is to really think about how you use your kitchen and each area of it. For me for instance I have
A baking area with wire shelves above for storing items I use all of the time. A smart rack system on the wall behind for hanging utensils. Wood countertop for rolling and kneading. Open shelf below for storing flour, sugar etc.
A work area with stainless steel counter tops. Single open stainless stell shelf below. Don't use that for storage but a place to set stuff while I am working. I don't cut or work on the SS Counter but use cutting boards on top of it. This table also has a small prep sink set into it.
A SS Kitchen island open underneath so I can sit at it. And a raised bar on the other side where people can sit and be served while I am working. The raised bar is wood.
Granite counter tops next to the range where I can set hot pans right off of the stove. A SS 3 compartment sink for washing pots and pans, vegetables etc.
I try to divide the kitchen just like it would be in a commercial kitchen. I will try and get some pictures and post them in the next couple of days.
chuck
Pamilyn,
Ikea cabinets have been discussed before by people who've actually used them. This thread is a little older, so it's possible that the quality has improved.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=31799.3
There are more threads discussing Ikea if you can get the search to work. I wasn't able to find anybody who came back 5 years later and said that they still loved them, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. Just from reading this, and from my own experience with Ikea furniture, I'd say that 15 years is outside the expected lifespan of the cabinets.
I am going to suggest that you consider an alternative, especially if you want to go with the 'funky' theme. In Europe, and in most pro kitchens I've seen, cabinets are not installed as permanent fixtures, they are furniture, and people take them when they move. You might consider doing the same - invest in some custom furniture for the kitchen that provides storage and workspace for all of your cooking needs. When you relocate, you take it with you. There's several benefits to this approach: you get exactly what you want without having to conform to some standard, you can reconfigure your kitchen at will if you suddenly decide that fridge would work better on the other side of the sink, and if budget is an issue you can space the furniture purchases out over several years. Your imagination is the only limit here - you can go with stainless steel tables and shelves like in a restaurant kitchen, or you can have a carved chippendale masterpiece crowned with granite or marble.
By the way, a high Consumer Reports rating to me is fairly meaningless. I used to consult CR before a purchase, but I ended up with some really crummy purchases that way. The Sony TV that died, and died, and died again in it's first year. The Behr interior paint that adhered poorly (another brand with the same prep is firmly affixed to the same surface). Ah well, you get the picture. For me a good rating in CR is a reason NOT to buy an item (although for some nostalgic reason I still consult it before buying a used car).
"do tell...do you have first hand info???? or just a snob comment"
Both.
I've done lotsa work in million dollar homes with hundred thousand kitchens ... and have also done a ton of work in rental-rehabs.
And I'n not ever suggested one HD/Lowes/Ikea kitchen for either.
They all suck.
There are plenty of lower end cab manufacturers that's just kill them on both price and quality of fit and finish.
Legacy is the low end brand of choice for me ... as I can get a great discount on them at the cab distributor where my Dad started shopping about 40 or so years ago ...
Who have you called in to design this kitchen?
Anyone? Getting good options?
or just hitting the local Ikea because they have nice magazines?
this is why it all pains me so much ...
Ikea ... HD .... Lowes ...
and everyone bitches about no "quality" in remodeling anymore!
Stop looking to those "Pro's" as your first stop and the quality generally goes up immediately!
If U had call me in the first place ... we'd have already covered all this ...
Budgets can be worked with in ...
and no one needs to resort to Ikea cabinets ...
my god ... yech ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The HD Kraftmaid kitchen I installed last week was great IMO. Nice plywood boxes, dovetailed drawers, good hardware, etc. The boxes were square, the finish was nice, the order was complete, everything fit the design and the design was very good. I'll take some photos after the Silestone counters go in. I'm not always pleased with the quality from HD, Menards, or the small local suppliers. One small local yard here that I install for pushes Merrilat. I would rather use IKEA than Merrilat (even though Merrilat gave me a nice jacket).
the ikea,mills prides etc are known as ready to assemble cabinets - RTA cabinets - I'd google RTA cabinets and see what available locally for you, or at least compare what's "out there" - a friend of mine from "another" site uses scherrs cabinets and recommends them - basic boxes that you can dress up with various trim - the only other comment is to better evaluate what you are trying to do - even if you're not planning on being in the house for a "long" time, you'll be in the kitchen every day and anything you don't like will be there with you -- I'm one of those guys who spends more money once then less money twice - you might want to consider putting up with the kitchen you have until you save enough to get the kitchen you wantjust some thoughts
I agree with you 100% Jeff. See some of my other comments. Why would someone ask a person at the Box to design a kitchen for them when all they want to do is sell more cabinets. You have to do your own homework first. How do I work, what do I have to put in these cabinets. That would be like going in to a stereo store and saying I want a surround sound system. Of course they are going to show you the most expensive system and tell you need this and that if you haven't done your homework first.
Example, my sister in law just had her whole kitchen remodeled. Wall torn, new flooring, appliances, cabinets etc. Spent about 75k. Cabinets floor to ceiling everywhere. When I was talking to her about layout, flow and how she works in the kitchen and what was going to go in all these cabinets. She said I don't know I have to wait for the kitchen designer to tell me. Turns out she went to a custom shop that the GC worked with. The designer took the demensions, asked here to pick out the style and color she wanted and that was it. The cabinet people decided how many cabinets, where things would go etc. Why is it when it comes to kitchens people act like its a big mystery and they can't make decisions or think for themselves. The have been cooking there whole life and all of a sudden they have to have a professional tell them where to keep the salt, or how to store a pot for optimal efficient removal from the drawer.
Open any home magazine and there are 1k's of dollars worth of ads telling you cook like a pro spend 100k on our kitchen cabinets. Oh by the way you'll have to throw them out in a few years because they'll fall apart. That part they leave out. I don't have anything against people doing this, I've remodeled plenty of my apartments and rentals with cabinets that my friends have torn out of their houses that are perfectly good.
I have nothing against custom cabinetry, I just feel that it has gotten out of hand with the excess that is going into modern kitchens. Good for you and your business, if you can sell it keep it going.
You should write a book.... do an article or two. You might be onto the next big trend.
BTW, Ikea has a line that is more in line with what your saying. Everythings movable and modular.
http://www.ikea.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=12&categoryId=10257&langId=-1&parentCats=10110*10255*10257&cattype=sub
Kevin
hey, what can I say, I like 'em
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I think all of the knockdown cabinets are fine if you accept them for what they are.
I like them in rentals as I can send someone down to home depot and get a new door or hinge for a damaged mills pride cabinet at minimal cost/effort.
The only Mills pride that even comes close to being tolerable aesthetically is their maple version.
I am a granite fabrictor by trade so I see a lot of cabinet installations. Lots of crappy cabinets come from some allegedly swanky kitchen and bath showrooms. Mills pride actually exceeds the quality of many cabinets my customers claim are mid range cabinets from the showroom.
I have put together several kitchens of mills pride and if you are careful and know where to take your time they can turn out fine. If you hire someone to assemble them and they haven't much experience they are likely to turn out crappy. The kitchens I did were for my own rentals, if someone wanted to hire me to assemble them it would either cost too much or I wouldn't wouldn't make wages. ie. if you are willing to work for two dollars and hour on your own home it makes sense but if you are paying someone 40 or more an hour it doesn't pencil out. I wouldn't turn low priced labor loose on them either as you are likely to get a botched assembly.
I suppose they are well suited to someone who has a good understanding of the assembly process, who won't cut corners but lacks the budget or tools to go for real wood cabinets.
I think they are very intolerant of abuse until they are installed. I think Home depot is pretty good about customer support so you can get replacement parts from them or the mfg.
I assume ikea is virtually the same as mills pride just different finishes and styles. I would go with whichever is closest.
karl
Any tips on what you do special to assemble MP cabinets ? :)
"Any tips on what you do special to assemble MP cabinets ? :)"
I've got Mills Pride raised panel maple cabs in my kitchen, and I'm very happy with them. They've been installed for six years now, and nothing has fallen off, cracked, warped, etc., so they can't be that bad. The finish still looks as good as the day they were installed.
Regarding install/assembly tips, make sure you fully seat and fully lock all of the cam bolts (a cordless drill makes quick work of this). Also, forget the tacks/nails they give you for fastening the backs- assemble the box, hold it square with a framing square, and use a brad nailer to install the backs. A few extra brads in the joints doesn't hurt either.
Other than that, there's really not much to say. Once we got all of the boxes in the house and got a rhythm going, my father and I had 15 boxes together in less than 4 hours (we assembled and hung the whole kitchen in one day).
Bob
As far as assembly tips, I agree with what bob said. Furthermore:make sure you have fully seated all dowels, hinges, pins, etc before trying to tighten the cam fasteners. It helps to have some bar clamps handy to squeeze the sides together. Having a soft mallet wouldn't be a bad idea.Use the clutch on your cordless to prevent overtightening fasteners and stripping them.I forget what size they are but buy a box of good quality wood screw to hold drawer slides and hinges. The ones supplies seem to twist the heads off easily.When I am all done, I carefully lay a bead of translucent vinyl caulk (polyseamseal) in the corners of the boxes to reduce the likelyhood of water inadvertently getting into the particleboard/melamine sides.Consider using real wood for the toe kick rather than using the melemine offered. It has been a while, so I am sure there is more I could say but at the moment this is all. Just take your time and pay attention to detail.Karl
I'll throw a couple more tips into the mix....
-Use a square on the cabinet back before stapling the backing. Especially on the taller cabinets that have more of a tendancy to get out of square.
-Screw the plastic adjustable feet to the bottom so when you move the cabinet around they don't come off.
-Definitly get a rubber mallet, preferably white to minimize marks.
-Use an impact driver for screws for the best fit, but be carefull to not overdo it.
-When your screw the cabinets together make sure you don't use the holes reserved for hinges.
-Set the feet to the right height before putting them on, no sense in trying to do it while laying on the floor.
-Organization will help. I had 170+ boxes total. Had them seperated by doors, boxes, wall cabinets, etc...
-Think assembly line. I would tackle a few cabinets at a time, ripping open the part bags and dumping them into a common parts bucket (one bucket for feet, one for screws, one for hinges, etc...) All the bags can get annoying.
HTH...Kevin
We are buying a kitchen's worth of Ikea cabinets for my son's condo. Floors are pretty level and flat. Ikea sells a couple of different adjustable leg systems for the base cabinets. Is there any reason to stick with those things rather than simply installing the cabinets on top of a 2 x 4 frame (maybe topped with 3/4 ply) for a consistent 3 1/2" (or 4 1/4") high toe-kick? If there were some height or out-of-level differences, I would still shim in the usual way.
It's not just saving the money on the expensive legs, but it also seems like a) a lot of places to adjust for 8 base cabs, and b) perhaps less sturdy than the 2-by base. Or is Ikea's solution really better?
Rick
i wouldnt use those legs either, building a platform 4 1/2 inches high is relatively simple and much sturdier
mark out the cabinet layout on the floor and build the platform from pine or plywood ripped to the right height adding braces at the cabinet gables
at the end of the run of cabinets, the platform can be recessed same as at the front
the platform can either be shimmed level or scribed to the floor
How much would you recess it from the front --- since I have the luxury of doing whatever depth I want.
Rick
I have made bases the way you describe and it works fine and is a much better sub base to attach a toe kick, rather than the flimsy systems by IKEA, Mills Pride, etc.
IKEA I love these people. I hate particle board. I live in a humid place, and see it as confused sawdust trying to get home. NOt all IKEA cabinet-like things are particle board. They have some solid birch, pine or spruce case pieces that can be put together to make a very classy kitchen. Not all of them in the kitchen department, by the way. I always glue the hell out of KD stuff, and substitute 1/4 or 1/2 plywood for the backs. What IKEA has that most suppliers won't sell me is lovely cabinet doors. not cheap by my standards, but solid and consistant. I build the boxes out of plywood. My clients are underpaid academics in small, old but not antique houses, and good planning is more important than flash in ####tiny kitchen. Do what you can.
I haven't been at this forever but I have installed two kitchens in the last year, one Ikea. I think that the Ikea kitchen is great for the price and immediate availability. They have really figured out how to manager their innovatory to produce something like 12 kitchen styles using the same frameless cases and a bunch of different doors, drawer fronts, and face panels. I particularly liked the metal rail and hardware for hanging and adjusting the wall cabinets. I strongly agree about using an air nailer/stapler for the cabinet backs. Overall if I end up doing many kitchens I'll probably put some effort in to reverse engineering Ikea's inventory system to poach the pretty stuff and build cases myself.
> I always glue the hell out of KD stuff, and substitute 1/4 or 1/2 plywood for the backs.
I always glue the hell out of everything, and substitute the middles and fronts, too. ;-)
-- J.S.
Understood. When I can I do the same.
glue all of the dowels as with any knockdown cabinet
I have installed 2 kitchens with Ikea cabinets, one of them was mine. I selected them because the look is aesthetically way more hip than anything you could find at a home improvement store. They are comparatively inexpensive, well-made, and the hinges and drawer glides are top notch. You should be prepared to deal with assembling them as they come unassembled in boxes. This is actually a benefit for me while doing a kitchen remodel, as I don't have to worry about finding space to store lots of pre-built cabinets. You should also be aware that going in for a kitchen consultation at Ikea can be somewhat hit or miss.
I've had good luck with the Kraftmaid cabinets