Greetings everyone,
I have been doing some soul searching on my next career path, and I figured break time would be a good resource for input on the pro’s and con’s of carpentry.
How about a little background… I’m 34, married, two kids, physically fit, paramedic, very methodical (somewhat obsessive), have always been regarded as hard working, I enjoy irregular and seasonal work patterns, I’m good at organizational work, but can only take sitting down so much before going nuts. My biggest thing is I enjoy working in a self directed atmosphere. I have no professional trades experience, however as an amateur house renovator and woodworker I am pretty comfortable with tools and the basic concepts of construction.
My biggest concerns would be that I am a bit of a perfectionist and that can be a pain in the
with people who have to work with me… As well, even though I’m a quiet independent person, I enjoy having a fair amount of inter-personal interactions with people during work and crusty people with bad attitudes and I don’t mix well (I don’t mean to imply anything…).
Any comments… or personal stories of what making this career change has meant for you would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Matt
Replies
crusty people with bad attitudes and I don't mix well (I don't mean to imply anything...).
Well.........you better get over that one in a hurry or you'll be leading a lonely life...........
Have a look at this thread and think about supporting a family.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=44791.1&maxT=16
Does your wife work? Any bennies there? What does she think of your career move to a field that isn't well compensated?
If you can't put up with crusty people with bad attitudes you might want to consider winning the lottery.
They're everywhere, and your position in the food chain leaves you vulnerable.
Joe H
mku,
It sounds like yer a newbie(wannabee newbie) with an attitude to create some attitudes in crusty people. Won't get you fired maybe, and a little time can fix that. BTDT, both sides.
Haveing said that, a bro here needs a good hand, and he's willing to hire a newbie. Wander on over to Dieselpigs and check it out.
SamT
It's a long road but there are a zillion little diverse jobs out there that can all lead to bigger jobs if you do them right and show up when you say you will.
Jump right in. We can always use more help. If you really like it, are dependable, honest, and good with people you'll be able to stick with it long enough to acquire some skill and experience and possibly earn a good living.
If you're interested in becoming a contractor, instead of a carpenter, that's a whole different skill set and you can make a lot more money. One profession doesn't necessarilly lead to the other.
Carpentry is a craft. Contracting is a business. Big difference.
Carpenter and contractor.thats all in one, right bro?
thats what we are.... as most of us are here...
I could never imagine "just" being a contractor.
How many "contractors" live here at BT....I dont know any...I mean JUST a contractor that doesnt bust a knuckle here and there.
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Well, your training as a paramedic will certainly come in handy and you'll have some opportunity to use it. Sort of kidding. Depends who you work with. (See the thread about the apprentice who shot himself with the nailgun.)
Sounds like you have just printed the job description for a remodelor, not a carpenter.
Where are you?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
"My biggest concerns would be that I am a bit of a perfectionist and that can be a pain in the #### with people who have to work with me"
slow perfectionist ... medium ... or fast?
I can handle a medium or fast(if there is such a thing) perfectionist ...
it's the ssllloooowwww ones that drive me nuts ... as I don't like the idea if paying someone a weeks wages to hang a door that swings properly, ya know?
plus .. theres a difference between being a perfectionist and being just plain anal.
shooting for perfection is good ... being an anal p.i.t.a. is not ... plus ... it's annoying as hell listening to a perfectionist either crying they can't get it just right ... or telling you how they just got it right ... all day.
MY advice to a new guy .... listen and learn ... as you work.
U don't have to stand there with yer hands in your pockets to learn how I do something ...
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Yeah, but he has to stand there with his hands in his pockets if he wants to have some fun while yer yapping about rule number one.
LOL
: )
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
What's your 20?
It's real hard to assume how well someone's going to make the transition. Stories abound, undoubtedly. I look at the pros and cons of what you say. Biggest down side is the uncertainty, the risk, the idea that while you throw your shingle out and pray for work to find you that bills are still coming and others depend on you.
Other plusses - somewhat of a clue with tools, you're mature enough that you should at least be able to decide in mid stream if this isn't what you banked on. Cons - you don't know what it is yet that you don't know. Being an avid learner is going to be important. But most of us here, if you lived in our town, would probably take the gamble on you for a day. You'd have a good 8 hr spell for us to get a read on who you are and what you are and what your tolerances are for average construction work. If you haven't been self employed before, and you haven't worked as a carp before, that's your best bet. Not saying you can't go the hard road, but that's a risky proposition. 0 on the stability scale.
If you really want to go it alone, don't kid yourself and start bidding decks right off the bat. Call yourself a handyman and look for that kind of work. Take what you know you can do. There will be enough little gee whizzes that crop up to show you where you want to steer things. The more you do, people you meet, etc, you'll better refine where your niche is going to end up being.
Wouldn't get hung up on the picky thing. You cant be a good carp without it, and we're all card carrying members of the retentive society. Wisdom is knowing when picky is serving a good purpose vs when it's making you look like a guy with nothing better to do. I think Jeff hit that one pretty good.
But a story to give you hope. Guy I know, he spent 23 years shuffling paperwork at a place that made ball bearings. Oh man. One day he says to himself, that's enough. I want to do something with my life. So he grabs some tools, he makes some calls, he crosses his fingers, and off he goes to his first work for hire. I'd be lying if I said many people thought it would last. No joke. This is one picky guy that people can't get enough of. He's a little slower than I guess I'd expect out of a trim guy, but his stuff is all squared away. His decks are masterpieces. He got in with somewhere and convinced them that hey, why not, I can install marble, and there's nobody else who comes close. He's a natural. So yeah, there's hope.
You'll pay for your education along the way. When you goof it up, you fix it. Just remember all the headaches are just tuition payments.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
"Just remember all the headaches are just tuition payments."
I don't think I've ever heard a more honest statement about this business. It's somehow rewarding and discouraging at the same time...just like the biz I guess.
"Just remember all the headaches are just tuition payments."
My Dad tells me a similar thing ... all too often.
like right after I worked a loosely worded contract ... and the customer balked at the final payment ... $3K.
I went thru the magistrates office ... won the suit ... and got to settle for half ...
The guy promptly and quickly paid the $1,500 ... I found out later that was how he handled all his "final payments" ...
Dad's words of advice ... "A lawyer probably would have charged ya the full $3k to tell you next time word it tighter ...
You just got a fifteen hundred dollar education in contracts and the wording there of ... it's worth every penny if you don't forget it."
he's right ... business school costs plenty of money too ....
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Thanks everyone for the replies so far,
I realize I don't realize how little I know... so if I go down this road I would pursue getting into an apprenticeship position and then attend trade school with 5 years as a goal to being well trained.
My wife does work... and I am able to supplement my income with other work between jobs... I should be able to maintain my present benefits... but that being said it sounds from what you folks are saying that if you want to eventually make a solid living you have to run your own business...
I actually don't have a problem being the new guy, I'm very eager to learn, ask questions, and can recognize when to shut up. Where I would potentially be a p.i.t.a. would be once I had some skills and a position of responsibility that would allow me to decide how things should be done (just being honest).
I would have to say I work at medium speed... I enjoy trying to be efficient, I don't screw around, and can keep on going... but I don't move real fast.
As was stated above, you folks can evaluate if someone has a good attitude for this after a first day of work... so that is obviously the next step, but your answers have helped me get an initial "feel" for the industry.
Any suggestions on looking for the first job?
thanks, Matt
Golden B.C. Canada
This isn't really answering you last question, but...I thought I knew about carpentry because I'd done some of my own and helped friends with remodels and additions, but when I got a job with a framer, I found out what production carpentry was all about. Stuff that I would puzzle about before and take a day to do had to be done right now. I learned all sorts of new techniques--can't haul every board to the table saw to cut it, etc. Fortunately the boss was patient. He'd say things later like, "Remember how slow you used the nailgun when you started?" or "Remember how long it used to take you to rip a sheet of plywood?" I remember following his way of cross cutting plywood by propping it vertically on his toe and letting gravity pull the handsaw down through--he made it look so simple and zip was done. I'm struggling and worrying about cutting my leg off , etc. Within reason, the faster you run the saw, the smoother the cut. Same with drawing a line free hand.
Anyway, to answer your question--ask around at places where friends gather--I asked around my church and a retired carpenter told me to call the guy I eventually worked with. One thing about church is you are slightly less likely to get hooked up with a crook. Now probably 80% of my jobs come from word of mouth through church members. However, the fact that they go to my church doesn't always make them any easier to work with, and the guy I work with/for got ripped off for almost two grand when a "church lady" refused to pay him for his work because it wasn't up to her standards.
You sound like a go-getter.
And with that in mind, I'd keep your day job for a bit............
If you want work as a carpenter, look for a job with a like minded Master and work 40 hours a week.
or
While you do your regular job, start asking around other Contractors, family, co-workers for little week-end, off hour jobs. Do a few.
See how it goes. See what tools your lacking. See how you like collecting fees. See if you estimates matched the reality. See if you make money. See if you like being a businessman. Because that's what you'll become.
As time goes by, you might find your self developing a backlog. I suggest not quiting your day job until you can:
-----Have a backlog of small paying jobs that'll keep you busy for a month.
----Match or exceed your current income AND benefits............in 40 hours.
----Have that wife of yours completely behind you.
---Accept that all other activities will be reduced.....time with kid, ect.
Keep us informed and good luck with your journey!
I don't know........ a paramedic in Golden.....
that sounds like a sweet gig if ya can get over the blood and guts
.....and helping people......
I tell any poor bastard that really has his heart set on being a carpenter
to go to school and take the pre-apprenticeship......
starts you off as a second yr. apprentice and the course goes over 95%
of what's thrown at you in yrs. 2,3 and 4. And you will be able to better
judge if your employer is worth you putting your time in with.......
plenty of guys going thru apprenticeships that just don't have a clue.
regards
Well...
First your going to need a hammer. You can get by with a light one if you go for being a finish carpenter. Framers seem to favor larger clubs. Curved claws or straight? Conventional design or California with the dumpier heads and larger strike zone? Common steel or go high dollar and bragging rights with titanium. Regular handle or axe?
Handles are a big debate. The durability of metal, the unromantic effectiveness of fiberglass, the traditionalism of wood. Then weights. A light club that sacrifices weight for speed or a massive bruiser that virtually intimidates the nails into place. Either way only buy quality. Spend the money. Get one that feels right because you may be spending time with whatever you get.
Next step is to consider how to use it. You should plan to take your chosen hammer and grasp it in a light but firm manner. Relax your body and think about focusing on the target. Swinging from the shoulder with a snap of the wrist at the end of the stroke is the picture you should form.
Getting down to the job at hand: Using the principles outlined above apply the hammer vigorously, energetically and repeatedly to the side of your head. Continue until such time as any idea of becoming a carpenter has completely dissipated and becoming a banker starts to look good.
Become a carpenter? You want to sign up for such abuse and misery? What are you? A masochist? Get a real job. Get a job that doesn't try to kill you every day.
Thanks to Bill who said much the same to me when I asked him about becoming a carpenter.
A carpenter ey? At 34? Freeze in the winter, sweat in the summer, low pay, no bennies, seasonal and weather layoffs, dangerous working conditions, lift, craw, tote and climb. Construction is the place for us former criminals, drug addicts, drunks, black sheep ne'er do wells with no education and anti-social tendencies. You don't like crusty people? Kiss my grits. Perfectionist? That job has to be done yesterday. I can pick up an illegal on the street that will work you into the ground for next to nothing, I'll even make him pay his own comp. Look at this forum, ask 10 carpenters a question and get 10 different answers. Training? There is none that is consistent. You are shooting for the bottom of the heap, why not go for a socially higher position like used car salesman. Plumbers and Electricians figured it out a long time ago, licensing, keep your trade work a secret mystery. Why not take your training and become a fireman, you can get all your bennies, a decent income and have your off time to go out contracting where you can cut the rest of our throats for a few dollars.
OK, I'm done with the sarcasm but much of what I said is true. I would recommend talking to career councilors at local colleges, employment agencies, adult education programs, etc. See if there are training programs or a niche that needs workers. There are many ancillary jobs in the field from drafting to safety that may have a better "career" future. Look in your area for the whole range of woodworking businesses. There probably will be home builders, remodelers, cabinet shops, architectural shops, furniture manufacturers and others. Make an appointment and talk to them about the possibility of working there, what experience they are looking for and what it will really means in terms of growth potential. Your best bet for steady income and perhaps some benefits will be with long established businesses. You will most likely start at the bottom until you prove your worth along with the 20 something year olds, you have to pay your dues. Some of them will be ahead of you. There are a lot of interesting aspects to woodworking, design, planning, research but you won't be doing any of that. For the most part you will be a machine operator or a laborer. That's really what most of woodworking is, repetition in a noisy, dusty environment. That's true for carpentry or cabinetmaking. The exception being the rare artisan woodworker using hand tools, they cut down on the dust and noise. All of us last as long as our backs and joints. Many of us grow into self-employment, often starting by moonlighting to supplement our meager earnings. This is about the only way you can start getting out of the tax tables if that is important to you. The list of failed contractors is a long one. I did not recommend the trade to my kids but for me, I wouldn't have done it any other way.
There are many positive aspects to the trade. Knowing that as a journeyman, you can go almost anywhere and find work, that you can look at most anything and know that you can make it or build it. There is an amazing satisfaction in taking raw materials and constructing something of value, utility and maybe even beauty. No mater how long you work in the field there is always something new and challenging. In reality you work with some great people that are down to earth and straight forward. At times you feel like a championship team member, at the end of each day you can see the results of your combined efforts. People appreciate what you do and are sometimes in awe of your abilities. There is a lot of autonomy in the work, you won't be bothered if you know what you're doing. In carpentry the location as well as the work can always be changing. Working outdoors is great despite a few bad days. The ability to build and maintain your own home is satisfying when you get around to it. You'll stay in pretty good shape and you won't have trouble sleeping at night.
I liked being a carpenter because in what other profession (legal) can you build a fire in the front yard of a house in a posh subdivision and not get introuble? Neighbors don't complain either.
mabye I should just say what my desk jockey friends say to me
......."what are ya NUTS???!!"
Thanks again,
Great advice!!!... and I appreciate how straight forward, and humerous, the answers have been, just what I was looking for. I am still very interested, but will precede with caution, and will provide an update.
Matt