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The local building inspector has just started requiring us to add firestop blocks in between our studs where the landing meets the wall. He claims that the landing constitutes a “ceiling”.
I don’t dispute his claim, but can’t figure out why the blocks are needed because we are using a solid member for a rim joist that prohibits the movement of air into the horizontal landing space. Basically, the stud spaces are essentially isolated already and cannot feed into the landing.
My question: Does anyone is here know the exact requirements for this type of draftstopping? We are building to boca standards in MI.
It’s only a few blocks, but this guy has gotten under my skin on several other weird requirements and I think it’t time that he is reeled in…
Blue
Replies
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I have been installing fire blocking along side the stringers and the landings since the first code book came out in Mass. The idea is to stop fire from burning out the wall surrounding and supporting the stair and landing. Makes sense tome....
*Brian, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or the reasons for fireblocking.It is my understanding that fireblocking (or more correctly, draftstopping) is used to prevent oxygen from being allowed into a stud cavity, therefore limiting the possibility of a fire from spreading. Without fireblocking, a small fire in a stud span would have enough oxygen to rage because it would draw from every stud space attached to the landing (or other horizontal structure).I have sucessfully passed at least 1000 inspections until now. Has there been a change that I'm not aware of?blue
*Clack him, bury the body, torch the truck and take his roll of stickers....suddenly you pass every inspection. This draft stopping is getting out of hand, soon we will just be studding the walls solid, or using ISP panels for EVERYTHING. Keith C
*Whay that bureaucrat doesn't understand is that the "landing" is really a shelf.In fact, the entire "staircase" is a a series of shelves installed for the express purpose of making it easier for cats to go from one floor to another. The building code does not cover shelves, does it?
*Fires...Man if there is enough fire in a home to make the stairs unsafe with out blocking, then I'm out the window!And firemen just have to assess the risk which is why they are firemen anyway...They love fires!near the stream that's at a trickle of late,aj
*blue... we had one.. god rest his soul,..used to make me block the furring in all my ceilings.. every 8ft and all the perimeters...see if you can work out a detail with the builder/owner..for pre-permit review.....the guy pulling the permit should be bringing this stuff up if it's an on-going issue..... sometimes they will give credit for cellulose insulation as fire blocking....also, some of the new foam blocking the plumbers and electricians are using to comply...
*get an ok letter from an engineer.....that always peaves them....if all else fails...when he goes under the house for his final, sneak up and screw the crawl door shut....then get the heck outta there. However, Don't plan on passing anymore inspections....
*The builder (super) has his own problems with him too. Here's something funny: the inspector allows the builder to lay a thin piece of insulation over the 8" oval that the plumber cuts for his tub drain. He accepts that as firestopping!!!I'm just curious about the exact boca language.blue
*A letter from an engineer won't override fire regs, an engineer can only address structural issues. As long as it doesn't involve a re-inspection fee, adding fire blocking here and there doesn't bug me too much. Sometimes, I think they pick out stuff like that just so they look like their doing their job. Kind of like an English teacher who refuses to give an A+ because no paper is "perfect".John
*I think John is right....it's called "one-ups-manship."Brian
*right... the one who wanted the firestopped furring .. i always thought of as mr. 3-for-5...he'd ask for 5 things.. i'd give him 3.. and everyone was happy....
*Jrs, it does include a re-inspection fee...$50.00! Luckily I'm not the one that has to pay, or we'd end up in court. I'm not too keen on taking bullshit from leeches, err I mean burrocrats.What galls me is this: if I have something wrong, they will not give an inch, even if common sense dictates otherwise, but when they are wrong, I'm supposed to accept it. For instance, in the house that I just completed, a triple 2x10 is required to carry a cantilevered chimney (see pic in boogerin' with Blue thread). In one of the same houses that we framed, they eliminated the cantilevered chimney and installed a masonry chimney with a foundation. That eliminated the need for the tripled member. To make a long story short, I got knocked down for not putting it in. The inspector would allow it to be eliminated only if the plans were re-drawn!I think the inspectors are simply knocking things down to keep their workload simple: half of their inspections are new, and half are quick re-inpections. They can spend more time at the malls or something.
*A funny thing I read is that technically the firestopping blocks are supposed to be tight to less than 1/8". I don't think that happens much in practice, especially with shrinking lumber. Without fireblocking the fire could quickly establish a good chimney effect, a draft bringing air in the bottom and flames out the top to stoke the fire. The shorter the chimney, the less the effect, so more smoldering, smoke, and opportunity to discover/contain it.Speaking of chimney effect, I saw a gas water heater the other day with about 10' of barely sloped lateral flue off of the draft collar. They was no way it could've had a healthy draft, not that it mattered now because the flue was corroded its entire length with fist-sized holes! The copper pipes were screwed into the galv. plumbing, too. Oh, the house had some other problems, too -- a rental. I hope this was never inspected!
*And here I thought this thread was about Gadget's brother, Craziness.
*Blue,I hope you didn't think I was sticking up for the inspector. I have certainly had my problems with some of them. So far, I haven't had them stick me with a reinspection fee for such a minor issue.Usually they point something out and I'll get right on it and everything's fine.Last Thurs. morning I got a call from my elec. That the insp. wouldn't drive up the 1500 ft. drive to inspect the temp. electric on the new house I'm starting, cause his truck almost got stuck.(The homeowner drives a Cavalier up this drive almost every day.) So I call Mr. Insp. and ask whats up, politely of course. He tells me and I ask if it was out of the question to walk, he said if he was gonna walk that far he'd just go golfing instead. Our public servants!To get things done I told him I would meet him out there and drive him up myself. So I wasted a half day waiting for the joker to show up and get my sticker. You gotta swallow a lot in this business, keeping your eye on the final goal.Got a couple of other good ones for you, but I'm tired of typing. Maybe later. Nice post you got going in Construction!John
*Any chance he's trying to apply a detail for type V-1 hr. construction?I saw this on every set of stairs in multi- family, except if the the wall where the stairs ran was one or two hour construction, and the gyp was continuous by holding the stringer off framing to allow for the rock to be slid behind the stringers and landings. Then no blocking at the perimeter was required.maybe the stair cavity is held to the 10ft draft stop rule like every other wall in single family, and the fire block rule is applicable where there will be great traffic expected to empty the building when the elevators are auto shut down. Then, the firefighters may need a full hour to actually assess, contain and fully search and rescue. Or maybe two hours.just a guess. ask him to show you where it says it in the book, and open your copy. If he's right, do it. If not, then there is great peace knowing you just dissed the man.
*Mr. Devil,Whoa...that doesn't sound right! Mr. Blue,I've been blocking the stairs, landings, 10' verts, 10' horz, basically anywhere one "plane" meets another FOREVER. If there's a gap, and there often is, it gets filled with PL400 or expanding foam, or "chinked" with fiberglass insulation. It's enough to make a guy pull his hair out! However, I don't get paid 'till the inspections are all good. It would seem you're becoming a victim of a nation-wide, inspector-crazy, cover your a**, UBC must be taken literally (redundantly), sweep over single family dwelling construction. I think we've reached the summit in the municipality I'm building in. Get used to it, or get really rural?I hear ya man.The Machine
*JRS...is the elec. inspector Larry from Summit Co.? He could not find a temp. of mine 2 weeks, and would never get out of his truck to look for it. I think they think we are going to put them at the street, right beside the driveway, then run 800' of extension cord to get to the house. Keith C
*Summit Co., yes, but it was a guy named Glenn. Sounds like they're cut from the same cloth. BTW-you still think Massillon is going all the way?John
*Blue:In our parts we use rockwool insulation to firestop tub holes, etc. Never could find anything about it in my code book (CABO). For this item, I just do what they want and have a nice day.
*Glenn...he's northern summit co., I've heard there is a structural guy in northern that is the worst S.O.B. ever created.I'll stay in southern summit and stark if possible. Massillon blew it big last weekend. Perry may be the team to beat now. McKinley won't be a threat I'm sure. Keith
*I think this guy is just creating new ways to give a red tag. Since he's arrived, we've done about six items differently to please him. Now, he's grasping at straws. He's doing it to the super too changing his criteria and demanding new things.F***in' a-holes is what they are.blue
*John, I once had a new inspector refuse to do a footing inspection because it was too muddy! A call to her boss straightened that out.Andy
*Speaking of footings, I swear this is true. I was putting the roof on an addition for a friend. She told me that when the inspector came to inspect the footings, he told her that they weren't deep enough in a few spots. The bad news upset her and she immediately started crying. The inspector felt so bad he went out back and dug the spots deeper that needed it and gave her a green tag!bluePs. I still find it hard to believe especially since the community was known for their nasty inpectors. Pss. the woman was an attractive lady.
*PSSS. Shorts and a V-neck sweater?
*Blue,I'm ashamed to admit that I own the 96 Boca book. I suggest you purchase one too. A couple of my inspectors that know I own it and study it leave me alone just so they don't get caught with their pants down.You need to get some clarification as to what section he is referring to if he does not think your ledger constitutes fire or draftstopping. Since you wondered what the code says:721.6.2 Connections between horizontal or vertical spaces: Firestopping shall be installed at all interconnectios between vertical and horizontal spaces such as occurs at soffits over cabinets, drop ceilings , cove ceilings, and similar locations. Fireblocking is not required at the interconnections between vertical and horzontal spaces where such spaces are constructed of noncombustible materials as defined by section 704.4.This appears to be the section dickhead is referring to. If he does not understand that your ledger constitutes fireblocking, hand him the codebook and ask him to explain where you can find the pertinent sections and interpret them like he did. Explain to him that this will help you in your quest to become a better framer/person and on the next house you will not waste so much of his valuable time. This is the same smart-assed sarcasm that I use on any government employee, appointed or elected official right after I get done showing them what their job is and how it should be performed.At this point in the discussion, it may be fun to remind him who he works for too!Tom
*Bingo Tommy! That is exactly the information that I needed!Your advice on getting the Boca book is well founded. I don't think I'll do another house without one. I am concerned that my ledger, which is solid 2x material, does not fit into the exception; "Fireblocking is not required at the interconnections between vertical and horzontal spaces where such spaces are constructed of noncombustible materials as defined by section 704.4.". Could it be possible that this inspector doesn't thinks solid 2x is equal to a 2x4 block? I'll have to look up section 704.4 whn I get my book.thanksblue
*If you're having a hard time finding the book, community college book stores probably will have it. I couldn't find one in any book store and didn't want to wait for the mail. I got the idea that maybe the construction tech courses needed one and I guess they do.Some poor student probably had to wait while they ordered another one but at least I didn't have to wait.
*Thanks for the tip, Ryan. I think there is a construction bookstore around here that I might bop into. I really haven't done much reading in the last few years, expecially since I got wired.blue
*I just looked this up for another thread here ... you can mail order anything you'd want from http://www.icbo.org Cabo's $30. I do most of my shopping "wired." :) The NEC is online with the NFPA, too, http://www.nfpa.org
*Yeah Blue-I think the store is in Novi or Northville. I think it's called "Construction Bookstore, Inc."Ryan also has a good idea-probably most schools with a civil engineering or architecture program would have it. You could check Oakland U or Lawrence Tech in our area.The only thing I could find about stairways in my 1993 BOCA was:720.6.3 Stairways: Firestopping shall be applied in concealed spaces between stairway stringers at the top and bottom of the run.By the way there is going to be a construction equipment auction at the Silverdome in a few weeks. A friend of mine bought a couple of man lifts at the last one. Lots of stuff there-think it lasted 2 days
*That's the store I was thinking about!I've been to the silverdome auction years ago. It was a big one, with lots of big toys. Unfortunatly I'm too poor to participate.blue
*Hey Rick,Where is that store exacty? I tried looking it up and could't find it. Thanks, Bryan
*It's in Ohio.Here's their website...http://www.lehmans.com/b : )
*Bryan:There USED to be one in Novi or Northville! I'll keep looking and let you know.
*Hey, guys. Most building plans inspection departments have code books for sale. They are even discounted a bit in some cities. That way you don't have to wait for one to be ordered. Just one thing. They are expensive any way you get them.
*Lehmans....been there many times...in Kidron(amish country) lots of non-electric stuff, stoves , refrigs, toilets...they did a HUGE business last year when the Y2K thing was the worry. Done alot of work for the guy who does there computers and his mothers family. Wow, small world. Only moles away from the joint.....what can I get ya.....Keith
*Had an inspector come to final a remodel, old funky farmhouse. Ceiling height in the livingroom was 6'8", had already passed installation of a 200 amp service, all new windows, and siding. He told me that because of the ceiling height, the house was uninhabitable and he would not sign off. I asked if he knew what pre-existing non-conforming ment? He stood his groung, so I called his boss and let him explain this to his in overpaid under-responcible nitwit of an employee. I believe we do need to know the codes, as well if not better, than the inspectors, they just look at it, we have to know why it goes together that way. It just adds another degree of difficulty to an already difficult job.
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The local building inspector has just started requiring us to add firestop blocks in between our studs where the landing meets the wall. He claims that the landing constitutes a "ceiling".
I don't dispute his claim, but can't figure out why the blocks are needed because we are using a solid member for a rim joist that prohibits the movement of air into the horizontal landing space. Basically, the stud spaces are essentially isolated already and cannot feed into the landing.
My question: Does anyone is here know the exact requirements for this type of draftstopping? We are building to boca standards in MI.
It's only a few blocks, but this guy has gotten under my skin on several other weird requirements and I think it't time that he is reeled in...
Blue