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Perhaps it's agood idea, but I don't know that it would be a significant enough advantage over square drives.
I agree that it is much better than phillips. But of the thousands of square drives that I've sunk, I can't remember a problem. So Why the need?
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
OK, I'll run with this.
From the webpage...
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What makes this new style of screwdriver different is that it has been designed with eight points of contact, which is double that of either the Phillips or the square head. The Phillips has four points of contact within the screw head and the square head also has four points of contact within the screw head.
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About four years ago, we met with an engineer and inventor who said he had designed a new type of screw head, one, he said, "that would revolutionize screws as we know them."
He pulled his new driver bit out along with a handful of screws and it was unlike anything we had ever used. The driver tip looked kind of like a cross between a Phillips and a square head.
What makes this new style of screwdriver different is that it has been designed with eight points of contact, which is double that of either the Phillips or the square head. The Phillips has four points of contact within the screw head and the square head also has four points of contact within the screw head.
The Phillips is certainly quick and easy to use. The tapered tip makes it very forgiving for the novice (or anyone for that matter) when attacking a screw from almost any angle. However, the taper that makes the Phillips easy to insert is the same thing that makes it hard to hold in high-torque situations where a great deal of pressure is needed to install the screw --as in hardwood or metal.
We no longer buy slotted screws. For the important jobs that require positive fastening, we have gotten used to using the square head. There is no slip-out (cam-out) and no operator force required to hold the tip in the screw slot (to get a tight high-torque connection).
Unfortunately, square heads shear very easily and we find ourselves going through tips by the dozens. Basically, the very corners of the square-shaped bit wear down in no time. When this happens, the tip slips and strips (rounds out) the inside of the screw and makes it almost impossible to remove.
With square heads, it is imperative to change the bit regularly as not to have this cause a problem. Otherwise, the square drive is a great tool.
Here's the technical mumbo jumbo:
Phillips: The Phillips tip has four points of contact with the screw (one at the face of each of four surfaces). These points are perpendicular to the screw axis. Perpendicular force is the strongest and provides maximum allowable force. However, the taper of the tip that makes it slip in easily also allows cam-out or slippage when force is applied.
Square head: The square head tip also has four points of contact (one at each of four corners). These points of contact are diagonal to the screw axis. Diagonal force is not as strong as perpendicular force and shear can occur under high torque. The good thing is that the square tip has almost no taper and therefore doesn't slip or cam-out.
So, the Phillips is really quick and easy to use. But, it's no good for high torque jobs. The square head doesn't require a truck driver's power to send a screw home like the Phillips does and the square head does high torque driving "fast and tight". But, because there is not a lot of "bite" or grip surface with a square head it takes about 10 bits to do the job you would expect from one.
The new screw tip looks like a cross between a Phillips and a square head. Actually, four little square heads clustered together and slightly offset from center (and each other). Thus, the screw offers eight points of contact. Four are perpendicular to the screw axis like the Phillips and four are diagonal to the axis like the square head. There is almost zero taper, so the tip doesn't cam-out and because of the perpendicular grip feature the screw tip doesn't wear out.
Here's a real caution. Be sure to use this tip/screw combination with a reduced torque setting. Without setting the torque on a driver drill you can literally break screws all day long.
u r not a feckless dastard
What about Torq or "star" drive.Starting to see a lot of those.
Ya, hope you guys don't think I'm trying to push these things.
I saw an article in a home section of the local newspaper and thought I'd check it out.
Posting here was just for interest is all.
be owning no stock
u r not a feckless dastard
And we're just bitching about them because we thought it would be of interest to YOU.(-:
Have patience - It's important to wait for just the right moment before screwing someone over.
Philips is OK. They strip and you have to stand on top of the drill, a real trick when driving a screw into a wall while on a ladder, but they work, mostly.Square drive is better but the bits wear almost as quickly as the Philips. And once stripped a square recess is effectively 'tamperproof'.Torqs is less commonly seen but they are far less prone to stripping or slipping. The bits last a long time as long as you get them into the screw head before starting.This new design might be an improvement but I have never had a Torqs head fail. How much better is needed. That new bit looks complicated. Might be expensive to manufacture in smaller quantities. Price would go down as usage increases but it is facing stiff competition. Philips are traditional and if you go into the local big box the vast majority of the screws are Philips with just a smattering of square drive seen. Square drive is the better design but still hasn't caught fire. A worrying fact when considering the chances of this new design making it because the square drive is clearly the superior design but it has not swept the Philips drive from the market. The square drive is about as old as the Philips so it isn't because the square drive is the new kid on the block. Torqs is, compared to square or Philips, the better design but it remains a niche market. Finding screws which use the system is tough if you wish to buy over the counter. Mostly you can only get them from specialty fastener businesses on the web.Time will tell but my guess is that people will be cussing at stripped Philips head screws well into the later half of the 21st century. Construction work is always slow to change. It seems the selection of fastener drive systems is particularly slow to change. Lots of people complain but very little changes very fast.
The local Ace Hardware chain has torque drive construction screws.
With Hitachi, Dietrich, and Grabber handling them they might have a shot.Looks like they are going after the metal framing business.
What's the best place on the Net to find Torx construction screws. I've been looking for them, but the only ones I can find are automotive.
dog,Try grkfasteners.com. They sell direct.Bill
If you want to go local try this:http://www.grkfasteners.com/retail_locator.htm
Menard's around here carry a pretty good assortment of torx drive - though they call them 6 lobe.
If I had to pick one style drive - it would be torx.
Edited 10/1/2005 9:05 am ET by Shoeman
I don't see the advantage. Seems to me you have 8 SMALL points of contact with this new kind, instead of 4 LARGE points of contact with square drive. So there's no real advantage.
Know how do you drive an engineer completely insane? Tie him to a chair, stand in front of him and fold up a road map the wrong way.
And, I'm still figuring out how this will turn when you can quite get teh bit , 'cept at that, ugh, over a bit, up some, getcher e'bow right theya, angle that is occasionally needed?
Next question I have. So, I've got this next wonder of the world bit--howsat going to make the cheap, discounted, only been rejected the once by People's Glorious Screw Fastener Plant #1159 screwheads from snapping off under torque?
The heads come loose because there's a weak spot there, not because our driver bits are so good (to paraphrase our sage on the archimedian fastener, Piffin).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Rez -- not arguing with you here -- just continuing the dicsussion, based on the info you've dug up for us.
Unfortunately, square heads shear very easily and we find ourselves going through tips by the dozens. Basically, the very corners of the square-shaped bit wear down in no time. When this happens, the tip slips and strips (rounds out) the inside of the screw and makes it almost impossible to remove.
With square heads, it is imperative to change the bit regularly as not to have this cause a problem. Otherwise, the square drive is a great tool.
Maybe I'm the goofy one here. (I hope I can say that without having a strike against me -- teehee) I bought a Kreg jig set about two years ago. The driver bits that came with it immediately went into my drill/driver carrying case. Those are the square drive bits that I've been using ever since, with no trouble, and no rounding that I can see.
Without actual data, its impossible to know how many screws I've driven, but I'll conservatively estimate its many thousand.
So for now, I'll stick with square drive.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
We prefer Torx drives, but use a lot of Stqinless Steel square drive. We get lots of broken bits, reamed round screw holes, worn shoulders. They don't begin to compare with Torx
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
No, Mooney has the hororary title of the Goofy One around here.
Something about sloping a bath floor under the front of the vanity in rentals is what I believe started the whole thing.
be a piece of Breaktime trivia
u r not a feckless dastard
U realize I still have the power to proclaim and remove that title at will, don't ya?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You'd have to go talk to Stewart about that.
His particular affiliation for strange screwheads puts him in a category of all his own.
be now we know why he likes to play in an all male dominated sport.
u r not a feckless dastard
Edited 10/1/2005 12:36 pm ET by rez
What's this about Pittsburg developing a new steel Stew screw?
be hearing Stewart got all excited when it was announced that this was the Steeler's Bi week.
cu invented the feckless dastard
have you heard in the last coupla years that Kordell Stewart isn't a Pittsburgh Steeler?
I'm also wondering what's up with all your homophobic one liners as of late.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Would have sworn I heard Pittsburg had resigned him but the sites say different.
My mistake.
I must be a feckless dastard
Edited 10/3/2005 9:36 am ET by rez
A Torx head and bit is definitely significantly better than a square drive, so I don't doubt that this would be an improvement too.A deciding factor for me would be how much longer - or not - the tip bits would last
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
anybody heard of deckmate. best screw i've ever seen. we do everything with em';subfloor,decks,siding,whatever.they work with a deckmate bit(blue bit) or a #2 square bit.haven't seen one rust yet down here on the coast. even stainless rusts down here.good stuff.
RTC
Yea, thats just great, one more tip I gotta keep in my box!!! <G>
Looks like removing screws would be a chore -- the tip's going to jam or cam out. I'll second Torx as probably the way to go if you want something better than square.
Well, the site had a place to click on to receive 5 free stainless screws and a bit for free so I'll let ya know in 4 -6 weeks. bwaa!
u r not a feckless dastard
What is that website? I'm not known to pass up an amazing freebe like 5 stainless steel screws and a bit!
http://www.grabberman.com/Program.aspx?pid=1
Ditto........rez
nevermind, I see it now.See ya in 4 to 6 weeks!
Edited 9/30/2005 4:33 pm ET by TRIGGER
Edited 9/30/2005 4:41 pm ET by TRIGGER
I was thinking the same thing, driving a Robertson, Square Recess, or even a Philips, is rarely a problem: taking them out, particularly if they've been there a while, is seldom easy.Torx is expensive and complex, but I used hex-socket screws with particle-board and remembered how much I liked them from my mechanical systems days. Just like male hex capscrews, the socket-heads went in, and out, with longevity and speed..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I'll vote for the European Posidrive screwhead as my favorite, with Robertson as second.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
I'll second that. The worst thing that ever happened for longevity of cars was the introduction of Torx heads. In any application exposed to the weather, a Torx head is a one-way screw. There's just no way you can get enough torque into that socket to turn an old screw out without stripping the screw, the bit, or both. A 10-minute job turns into hours when you're cutting flats into the outside of one of these evil pieces of junk. This is automotive of course. I bet torx would be great in a stainless screw for wood.Pete
Maybe I'm being thick on Friday afternoon but something doesn't make sense. In fact, it looks like sloppy marketing hype. How can they say that a Phillips drive is perpendicular to the head axis but a square drive is diagonal? Since the screw is round aren't they choosing an arbitrary x-y axis to reference perpendicular? Why can't we rotate the Phillips x-y axis 45 degrees and call it diagonal to the screw axis? Ain't nuttin changed except an arbitrary line.
If I'm missing something obvious you have permission to whack me upside my haid.
How can they say that a Phillips drive is perpendicular to the head axis but a square drive is diagonal? Since the screw is round aren't they choosing an arbitrary x-y axis to reference perpendicular? Why can't we rotate the Phillips x-y axis 45 degrees and call it diagonal to the screw axis? Ain't nuttin changed except an arbitrary line.
Yeah, my head started spinning on it's axis trying to make sense of what they were saying.It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
We are turning the screw, so the force must be applied tangent to a circle, the centre of which is the axis of rotation.
Ah, there's the problem! Come up with a screw where you apply the force radially, then you could use a round bit!
Interestingly enough. I have a 3" roberson tip that I can't wear out either. Subbed a cabinet job seven years ago, and the cabinet builders gave me the tip. I didn't even have a Kreg jig at the time, but this tip is perfect for pocket screws. I've used the bejeezus out of it, but lately I've been trying to ease up on it. It can't last forever, can it?I like the torx, but it pizzes me off that they make two size bit holes in the same size heads. Of course, I always have the wrong one<G> I like the screws though, the bits will snap off before the screws are damaged. Bosch is the crappiest.For shorty #2 square drive tips, the DeWalts have held up the best for me, McFeeleys have been the worst.Rez, wtf did you have to show me another one for? "what's in a name?" d'oh!
Ok,looking at the new goofy screw ...
Draw radials from the center of the screw, like spokes on a wheel. If you draw a perpendicular to the spoke where it meets the contact point, half of the contact points are at 90*, the other half are at 45* or somthing else.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
ZooGuy,Post #28 says it pretty well; I just wanted to expand on it.On a slotted screw, the ends of the slot are loaded almost at 90 degrees to a radial line when driving the screw. Similar with the Phillips. The corners of a square (Robertson) recess are actually being loaded at 45 degrees to the direction of torque. The 6 lobes on a Torx are also loaded at an angle to the tangential torque. The newer Torx-Plus bits and screws have a lower angle of force offset, and can take more torque because of it. Given the good recess styles we now have, I concur that this new system is a solution in search of a problem. Besides, it is ugly. I prefer the symmetrical look, personally.Bill
Re: " Besides, it is ugly. I prefer the symmetrical look, personally."I hadn't considered the aesthetics side of the situation. It is a very powerful force. Often to the extent that it can overwhelm the practical side of the equation.A good example was the development of the AR-15. Simply put it was/is sexy looking. It has a streamlined, high tech, modern look. Some historians of firearms design have noted that if it was uglier there would have been less tolerance of its flaws and the program may have been dropped before the problems were corrected. Over time it became a respected weapon with a personality that approximated its physical beauty.'You can't kill me. I'm too pretty to die.'
> Besides, it is ugly. I prefer the symmetrical look, personally.
Yeah. The design does kinda remind me of the symbol of a certain German political party that was in power from 1933 to 1945. (The dirty word filter freaks out if you use the short version of National Socialist German Workers' Party.)
-- J.S.
Hmm. I thought the torx head has already solved this problem. Installing 1/3 logs to framing with 4" torx head deck screws, we would often go through a box of 2500 screws with one T25 bit, sometimes two if we weren't careful.
I don't think it has much of a chance. Torx is better established in the marketplace, especially in automotive applications. Torx is a stronger design, it can deliver more torque in the same size. This one isn't symmetrical, what happens when you have to unscrew something?
The other obstacle is getting people to stock yet another kind of head and driver. We already have slot, phillips, square/Robertson, hex/Allen, and Torx, not to mention external square and hex turned by wrenches and spin-tites. I don't see any advantage here that would justify yet another standard.
As the SMPTE guys say, "We love standards. We have lots of them." ;-)
-- J.S.
That's not what I thought this thread was about at all. <VBG>
"four are diagonal, 4 are perpendicular to the screw axis"
Huh? The more I think about that statement, the less sense it makes.
I'll take a well fit phillips to a poorly fit anything else, myself.
Post 28 explains it.
Another case of engineers can't communicate their thoughts.
I still think "0" head screws would be awesome.
Be screwed
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
Hey, I make my own all the time - LOL! Just made some today out of some pot-metal #1 Phillips....