I have a porch floor on my 80+ year old house that wraps around 3 sides. The existing flooring has some rot in areas and the paint is peeling badly over the entire floor. I would like to replace it with something that is lower maintenance but is real wood. After much reading I have decided that this material is IPE. I would like to use 5/4 tongue and groove since I don’t want it to have the “deck” look.
I have several questons:
1. My thoughts on securing it are to pre-drill a hole and drive a 3″ or so stainless steel trim screw at each joist in much the same fashion as if installing hardwood floor, i.e. at a 45 degree angle at the tongue. I don’t want to see the fasteners. Do you think this will work, is there a better way?
2. Can I lay the boards tight or do I need to leave some space between them?
3. Is IPE straight enough that I could mill the tongue and groove on my shaper?
4. The porch is covered, the drip line falls outside the flooring and there is a good slope to the floor, however blowing rain will wet the floor. There is good ventilation under the floor since the porch is about 4′ off the ground. Given all this, am I on the right track here?
Any help will be appreciated.
Replies
Beachhead,
There have been a few discussions lately about "traditional porch floors", so you'll probably get some immediate answers by using the search function here.
Tongue and groove is definitely the tradtional way to go. I think most guys here would recommend back-sealing the flooring as you go, as well as sealing the T&G edges. Penofin seems to be a very popular product, and I have used it myself.
I've been told by a local hardwood distributor that they're just on the verge of offering Ipe in a T&G format. He cautioned that you need to be sure you're using a dry product -- not wood that's still green. I have heard a number of horror stories regarding the use of green Ipe in T&G.
Also, any machining that you do yourself will need to be with carbide tools --- my local millshop told me they tried to run some custom Ipe moldings and got all of 25' before the HSS knives were toast!
Since I wasn't able to get the Ipe in time for my own covered porch floor, I ended up using Jotoba (Brazilian Cherry). It looks absolutely beautiful, especially after the Penofin went on. I was told that it would be a good choice for the application, and it cost me about $4.25 psf.
Don't use a subfloor --- that way, if the floor gets wet, it will be able to air-dry from the backside. Blind nail the floor in place, like you've described. I simply rented a manual flooring nailer. I've also used my 15g gun to blind nail in the same fashion.
Hope this helps get you started.
Ragnar
Your method for installation sounds good, though you migh also consider adding construction adhesive in dabs to the joists as you put each piece down. Reason is that SS nails are more brittle than regular and so a few of them could fracture in this application.
But the idea of hand milling that much of this stuff gives me the heebie jeebies. Be prepared to clean your carbide bits often. In addition to mineral in the wood dulling steel, there is a waxy build up that cements itself to the sawteeth, drill channels, and cutting edges of blades. This adds considerably to your heat buildup. Can you spell Smoke? boys and gurls?
Another thought for anyone wanting to mill their own flooring - regular panel T&G hbits are not made for flooring. Flooring bit patterns allow a small bevel on the lower flange of the grooves so the top can pull tightly together. Otherwise, too many unsightly open spots occur and invite more water in to the joint. Ipe' can handle a lot of moisture but who konws how much is too much.
It's great wood but you've got you work cut out for you if you can't find it already milled T&G
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I just had another thought while that was posting.
Ipe' at one by four(3/4") can handle almost 24"oc in square stock on a deck. The T&G will make it even stronger. There should be no need to go to 5/4" and spend all that extra money. Bits might be easier to find in the right configuration too.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
3/4" is strong enough. Ipe is rated for 24 O.C. joist spacing (although I would use 16", to help prevent warping more than deflection). The Ipe I've worked with is at least as straight as fir. If you screw it in I would recommend 2-1/4" stainless square drive trim head screws, and pre-drilling the Ipe.
steve
I want to thank those that have responded so far, the information is excellent. The reason I am proposing to use 5/4 is that this what is on the floor now. The porch roof is supported by stone and mortar pillars up to about 4' off the floor and the last 3' is square wooden columns. I am afraid the 1/4" difference may expose unfinished areas of this stone work. Call me crazy, but I also like the beefier look of the 5/4 on the outboard end. The wooden columns - they are the next projects and I am sure to have more questions concerning them.
If you like the heavier look of the 5/4 at the exposed edges, you could possibly use something akin to a stair nosing around the perimeter. That is, use net 3/4" in the field and rabbeted 5/4 around the edges where you'll see it.
A quesion to all: what is the opinion on putting the last piece of flooring perpendicular to the common direction in order to hide the end grain?
By all means, use the beefier if you can afford it to keep the design integrity intact.
Ragnar, I have done this for t&g applications because I don't like the look of the joints showing. I use plenty of waterproof glue to seal the board ends and then trim head SS ring shank nails. For square edge, I just leave it exposed .
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Thanks for the info, Piffin.
I've got more questions if you'd oblige....
Do you really get decent glue adhesion to the end grain? What about expansion issues with the grain being glued in two different directions?
I just had a client requesting me to do this, but I was hesitant to say yes because I wasn't sure if the joint would trap water and facilitate rot
Ragnar
Edited 11/26/2002 8:15:09 PM ET by ragnar
I'm counting on the nails to hold the strip in place and at least 75% of the glue purpose on this situation in my mind is to seal the end grainand interfere with it wicking up moisture.
I stopped by one a few weeks ago that I did over ten years ago this way ( part of it curved, too) and it was all just as good as the open deck. I'm actually suprised because this is an uncovered location and the caretaker is supposed to be removing snow and slush after storms but he doesn't give a rats ____ (whisker) and lets it soak and refreeze unless the owner is around..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I'm a big lover of wood, but one of the places where I've been open to synthetic alternatives is porch floors. I just saw a sample today of a composite porch flooring that is shaped just like traditional Fir T&G flooring. Forget the name of the product, but I was impressed. It has a little cellulosic texture in it, but not like objectionable fake woodgrain.
I'm hoping to try it soon on a project I'm working on so, I'll report further on it if anyone is interested.
Steve
I'd love to know the name of this product. All of the the synthetic products i've looked seem to have two major drawbacks. One, the coefficient of expansion is such that a signicicant gap is going to be present. Two, they just don't resemble the real thing at all, especially the flat even look of tongue and groove. The tongue and groove produsts I've seen have fairly deep grooves detween "boards".
I believe the composite decking you are refering to is Tendura. Tounge and groove and it looks pretty good. Website: http://www.Tendura.com
Good luck
just used the Tendura t/g composite flooring and I love it !!!!! had NO PROBLEMS installing it, the floor is smooth, the look is great and the client is impressed. if you need more info let me now. oh, I did have one problem, I made a wrong cut and had to use it somewhere else! tattoo
Makes sense, Piffin. Thanks for the info, and good to know that you've got at least a 10-year track record behind the method.
Regards,
Ragnar
If you are planning on milling ipe, one word of caution....use a dust mask. We did an entire deck and milled all the balusters individually. After a while, you want to clean the inside of your sinuses with a paint scraper.
On that note, have fun
Will
Excuse my ignorance, but what is IPE?
Use your search engine
ABOUT IPE - Properties of the Wood
http://www.floorings.com/decking/ipe/ipe.shtml
Thanks for the info. I didn't use my search engine because I thought it was an abbreviation. Now I know better.
As a follow up to your post 2 years ago about using IPE T&G for a porch...
I would like to try the same but given the $2000 cost of buying the wood, I want to make sure it will survive the elements.
How did it work out for you? Did you see any cuping or gaps? Do you get snow where you are? etc...
Thanks.
P.S. Anyone else with thoughts about using IPE T&G on a covered porch in Ontario, Canada? I'm not convinced that it is a good idea but would like to try it if others have done so successfully.
Don't hold your breath. His last post was Feb. 11th.
As for snow, his profile says his location is Rehoboth Beach, Delaware. My guess is some snow, but you can probably look it up on the web for a more accurate answer.