Hey all,
I was wondering if you think 31 yro is too old to switch to a career in carpentry. For the past 8 yrs. I have worked as a CAD operator with an architectural firm. As each day goes by, I become more unsatisfied with my current employment. A lot of it has to do with the way the firm is operated (or rather not operated), but I am also becoming less and less enamoured with the thought of spending every day of my working life in a 5X5 cubicle drawing virtual lines on a computer screen.
I know you all will love this, but as a child I would watch This Old House every Saturday and think that I would like to build houses. Please don’t hold that against me. At this time One of my older brothers was also a carpenter and built his own two story house which burned to the ground because his then wife (they are now divorced) left the iron on while they were down to visit us for Thanksgiving. He also built an addition to my parents home and I watched him every minute I could. These are some of my favorite memories, although the house burning I could do without, but that’s life.
I have picked up a few things from reading and have enjoyed working on some projects around the house- such as replacing carport roof joists, screening in a porch, building a chicken coop and repairing deck railings.
My cubicle prison has made me a little soft and given me some buldges. I know it would be a big transition and a lot harder work to switch to construction, but I am not afraid of work and actually am beginning to crave it. Like Wendell Berry says “after the games and idle flourishes of modern youth”, many of us use our marginal, growing useless bodies “only as shipping cartons to transport our brains and our few employable muscles back and forth to work”. Unfortunately, that’s me.
So again, is 31 yro too old for some soft in the middle guy like me to take up a career in quality construction. Also, does quality construction really even exist any longer (except of course for those of you here)? If not then this would be a moot question because I want to spend my life doing better things than producing crap.
Sorry for such a long post for such a simple question.
Steve J. from hot, sweaty south Georgia.
Replies
I may be the wrong person to answer your question, but here goes.
it's never too late too follow your dreams
you will start at the bottem, some folks have trouble with that
bobl Volo Non Voleo
31 is not too old to take up anything.
Perfect age. Go for it! You'll never need a gym membership again.
"... I am also becoming less and less enamoured with the thought of spending every day of my working life in a 5X5 cubicle drawing virtual lines on a computer screen."
I feel for ya - That's more or less what I do all day. And I'm not really all that fond of it anymore either.
Have you read the Spec House from Hell thread? I started that spec in part because I was tired of being cooped up in an office. I wanted to build a house from start to finish, but didn't want to give up my full time job. Ended up being an expensive lesson that I'm still paying for.
Actually, the spec house ended up getting me some part time weekend work. I've been working one or 2 side jobs trying to keep up on the mortgage payments and taxes for 2 houses......(-:
You might try doing some side work for a while, and see if that helps with your "Framing urges". Or buy an old house and see how you like remodelling evenings and weekends.
There's a lot to be said for not talking so much.
"Actually, the spec house ended up getting me some part time weekend work."
"You might try doing some side work for a while, and see if that helps with your "Framing urges"."
Is it very common to be able to do side work in construction? I have thought about it, but wasn't sure if its really possible.
Steve J.
"Is it very common to be able to do side work in construction?"
Well, yes and no. You have to pick jobs carefully, and be opportunistic.
Right now I'm helping a guy do some remodelling on an apartment complex he bought. Tearing out kitchens, boxing in HVAC ductwork, etc. No tenants at the moment, so there's not too much time pressure.
Another side job I had was insulating a pole barn. I've also helped build a wood shed, hung drywall in a garage, and other minor work.
You can't get into stuff like remodelling someone's kitchen while they're living there - WAY too much time pressure. But maybe building a garden shed, re-roofing a garage, or something like that might fly. I put tape on the mirrors in my house so I don't accidentally walk through into another dimension.
The best way to do carpentry on the side is to try and get on with your local fire dept. You'd be amazed at what you can do with 6 days off every 10! ;) The great part is that you always have a steady income to pay for your carpentry mistakes. I actually volunteered some time this summer with Habitat for Humanity just to get some hands on experience, fortunately I have some time to volunteer but you might want to look into that for some experience as some of the others have mentioned.
The more projects I get involved with, the more I appreciate the fine trade of carpentry.
Good luck!
Thanks for all of your responses - pro and con and even the sarcastically humorous. The encouragement to live my life doing something I would be satisfied with is much needed and appreciated.
I'm still kinda surprised that no one ragged me about the This Old House thing.
You all have given me a lot of options to choose from and some great advice on how to make them happen. I guess now I need to talk it over with my wife, make the decission, and live it out.
I look forward to the education I will get by continuing to read this forum. I have learned a lot so far by doing so.
Thanks to all,
SJ
Soli Deo Gloria
Paleo,
I firmly believe most of these guys are blowin' smoke up your [email protected]#.
As a neutral observer I would say that at 30-31 you are a middle aged guy having a mid life crisis. Chances are EXCELLENT that you ARE to old.
Most of the wonderfull stories these folks have told you are about the EXCEPTIONS to the rule---about the fortunate folks who were able to do this in their late 40's -50's etc.Heck---I could tell you about the 58 year old man working on my roofing crew yesterday working on something like an 18/12 or 20/12 roof tearing off 2 layers of asphalt shingles and 1 layer of wood shingles,re-decking and re-shingleing etc. He also is an exception----and if he wasn't so busy trying to save face and keep up with workers in their 20's---he would probably tell you about some bad decisions that led to him still doing this at 58.
I am 40 by the way
Can it be done---sure. But statisically I would bet the odds are way against YOU being able to do it.( nothing personal---just playing the odds here)
Really---with a wife and children age 8-10,still renting----I would say this is not a shrewd move to attempt.
Realistically,( and I would advise against it)----if you are GONNA try this at your age try to get in with a arch. millwork situation or a cabinet shop----less physical. Or controll your own gig by buying investment property and re-habbing.
"As a neutral observer I would say that at 30-31 you are a middle aged guy having a mid life crisis. Chances are EXCELLENT that you ARE to old."
Middle aged? If you haven't started earlier, 30 is an excellent age to begin working out.
Paleo, if it's too tough, you'll know it. My first few jobs they worked me to death incl tricks (being the only woman on the site), and I fell into bed and ached every day for a week but boy did I get buff quickly! An evil employer killed my back and I really miss the hard labor (tile setter/helper).
That was a good post, and I mostly agree with you.
>>Really---with a wife and children age 8-10,still renting----I would say this is not a shrewd move to attempt.
I would add that the TIMING is not good now. Housing is at the end of a boom, quite possibly heading into a major slump now. Lots of qualified people may soon be pounding the street.
>>Realistically,( and I would advise against it)----if you are GONNA try this at your age try to get in with a arch. millwork situation or a cabinet shop----less physical. Or controll your own gig by buying investment property and re-habbing.
This is very smart advice. Fancy millwork and installations. Store fixtures. Fine cabinetry. Very precise, skilled work that not every Joe can do.
Personally I would rather be doing rehabbing and fixing up my own projects, though. It's so interesting and challenging. Become an owner builder and sub out what you can't do yourself. You could probably dovetail this work with your CAD job until you are really established. Once again, though, since we are at the end of the cycle, you should wait a bit for prices to fall.
"Housing is at the end of a boom, quite possibly heading into a major slump now."
I've been hearing that since 1994. You got a crystal ball or something?It's hard to be funny when you have to be clean. [Mae West]
1994?
I'll see you and raise you three - I've been hearing it since '91 when I started my latest business. .
Excellence is its own reward!
Ya gotta go easy on boss there, talking. He 's taking a good whipping and ain't cryin' too loud about it.
OK, OK, I'll go easy on the Boss. I know what it's like to get a good whippin myself, after all.
You can take my depressive outlook on the economy as just another datapoint.
Started in Remodeling Biz at 30. Best move I have ever made!
You need a mentor! Find someone who will give you advice at the drop of a hat. We can do that here but someone nearby will help.
Niche. Be a handyman for the elderly. They talk alot and they will speak of the nice young man who was sooooo kind and prompt.
Keep your overhead LOW. You have more wiggle room when you dont have alot of money that you have to put out ea. month.
Dont be afraid to goof up. You are going to do it. Recover quickly.
Do EVERYTHING for starters. You will find your true talents fast enuff.
Does your wife work? If she doesnt then you have an enormous amt. of pressure on you.
Do EVERYTHING that you hear others complain about. BE ON TIME....RETURN PHONE CALLS...CLEAN UP!!
Keep us posted.
Paleo, at 31 I was a master Electronics technician making $10/hr. My inferior superior broke his promise of a raise and I quit. A month later, I was in construction earning $12.50/hr with a nice small co. The next christmas, I was riffed. Come the new year I gave my self a raise to $15/hr by simply asking for it when I applied.
I am now 53yo and do not regret it at all!
Yes you can do it. No, you can't do it. Take your pick and that is what will be true.
Some advice if you have never used a hammer and saw... design and build yourself a sawhorse, repeat till you get it right, then duplicate it. design and build yourself a workbench. then design and build a rolling bench/tool chest. become familiar with the main tools you will be using.
Buy professional tools. Worm drive saw, $30 hammer, $120 bags, 3hp router. Talk to a small tools repair shop about specific reccommendations.
See if you can find a carpenters manual from a dismayed apprentice union carp.
go to the library. Go see construction sites. Talk to some of the GC's you know from work, see if you can hang with 'em for a day.
Or do like I did...Quit work (gives incentive) and start cold calling contractors looking for a job.
SamT
"Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.From 32866.117
"design and build yourself a sawhorse"
Just built a stacking pair last night. Sawhorses always come in pairs never just one. Right? Correction- my son and I built a pair last night.
"Buy professional tools. Worm drive saw,... "
Used my new PC left bladed sidewinder. To weak for a wormdrive- besides this is the east coast. Still working on getting all the other goodies. Thanks for the advice.
"Come the new year I gave my self a raise to $15/hr by simply asking for it when I applied"
Who construction doesn't pay as much as being a CAD operator? You got me beat. Of course I do have some benefits.
SJ
Steve,
Roofing is definitely a young man's sport! Yer all washed up already! LOL
In at 31 out by 40 - maybe he can make a killing by then.
;)
Or maybe you'll hire him in a few.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffen,
I could write a book on this topic( and I bet you could also)
At about age 25( with a 1 year old and a second one on the way) I left the electro plating trade to start in a much safer business---roofing.Physically---there wasn't a great deal of difference between Stephen at 25 and Stephen at 31. but things can change QUICKLY after age 31.Stephen at age 40 is LIGHTYEARS away from Stephen at 31.
Look at baseball players----notice how many are at the absolute top of their game at28,29,30 etc. and are washed up at 34. Things change quickly----and THAT'S with professional athletes---prime physical specimens! for the rest of us---you can't fight genetics!
A lot of guy's at age 31 are looking to get OUT of the trades----or at least get into a gig where they aren't humping plywood etc. No way I would hire an ENTRY level 31 year old since an 18 year old will work him into the ground every day all day. Harsh but true.AND----frankly I don't see how a 31 year old ---with a 8 year old and a 10 year old could RESPONSIBLY leave a steady job with benefits for the undependable,irregular hours andd zero benefits of the average
carpenter/roofer etc.8&10 year olds know when they are suddenly poor----my todlers didn't----and by the time they knew about economic differences---they weren't poor anymore.I took physical and financial risks at 25 that would be insane to contemplate just a few years later.
plus I am assuming that a 31year old who is still renting doesn't have the financial resources or DIY experience to attempt to start his own show like a lot of us did.A bit of money and a good bit of experience would take a lot of the physical pressure off a start up at age 31.
I prosper moderately in a young mans sport by increasingly relying on mental and financial resources---resources that weren't available at 25 or 31!
BTW, Piffen-----
sometime next week I am gonna try to get some pictures posted here of my last job----18/12 tearoff of 2 layers of asphalt and 1 layer of wood shingles. Re-deck,50 year shingles,miles of copper valleys, copper drip edge,copper waste stack vents,copper roof vents,copper flashing. Over $1200 in copper raw materials alone.
"I am assuming that a 31year old who is still renting doesn't have the financial resources..." or DIY experience to attempt to start his own show like a lot of us did"
Maybe the fact that I am still renting helps give me the financial resources. Through my wife's employer we have a VERY good deal on rent. My children have the run of several thousand acres. I would have less financial resources if I were paying a mortgage every month.
"...or DIY experience to attempt to start his own show like a lot of us did"
I have some experience and am gaining more.
I appreciate your comments about not being able to labor as hard as a fit 18 yro. It probably would not be a good idea to work for a high production oriented employer.
I am leaning towards trying to find a way to ease into the field of remodling by doing side jobs or a handyman sort of gig as some people here have recommended. Maybe I could even get up the nerve to buy a fixer upper. I still have a lot of thinking and research to do.
I know nothing is meant by it, but this is the second post with the "31 year old who is still renting" comment and it kinda rubs me the wrong way.
Thanks to you and everyone here for your advice and comments. I really have enjoyed reading them and benefited from doing so.
SJ
>>I am leaning towards trying to find a way to ease into the field of remodling by doing side jobs or a handyman sort of gig as some people here have recommended. Maybe I could even get up the nerve to buy a fixer upper. I still have a lot of thinking and research to do.
Listen, I admire the way you are doing this. Take the time to do your research and plan and find the smart way to do this. I wish to heck I had a panel of experts like this forum to ask before I jumped into construction. I went into it on a lark, and the way I did it was a mistake--I didn't realize how important it was to choose carefully who to work for, and I ended up learning a lot bad habits and patterns of behavior.
Take your time. Now that you have started planning your escape from office work, you have entered "short-timer" mode, and that should take some of the mid-life crisis pressure off.
>>I know nothing is meant by it, but this is the second post with the "31 year old who is still renting" comment and it kinda rubs me the wrong way.
The smart money knows that renting is the best choice in some circumstances, like when the market is overpriced. Once the housing market deflation sets in, and it will, all these people who bought at absurd prices will be facing negative equity. Then you will look like a smart guy.
Everybody take care this weekend. I'll be looking forward to seeing all the new posts Monday.
SJ
Soli Deo Gloria
Paleo, I hope 31's not too old to change careers. I got into carpentry and woodworking in high school, worked as a carpenter through college, set up shop as a furnituremaker after college, and got sucked into self-employed remodeling over the next several years. A year and a half ago I got a job as a CAD drafter at a residential design/build company. I've learned a ton of stuff about running a business being in the office, but sitting in front of a computer screen all day every day is starting to feel like life is slipping me by. Sounds like you know the feeling.
At the ripe old age of 29 and 11/12 (birthday's next month) I'm seriously considering going back to work as a carpenter. With what I've learned in the office I will be much better at the business end than I ever was before, and the break from working with my hands has made me long for that aspect of construction.
Even at my relative young age, I've "mentored" several men older than me into a new career in construction. Maybe mentor isn't the right word, but they worked with me, I showed them what I knew about construction, and they showed me new things coming in with a fresh perspective.
Although it's not the path I took, I would strongly recommend finding a job as a helper to an experienced carpenter who works on the job site. You want a guy experienced enough to know what he's doing so you learn good skills, and who does a variety of things so you learn a lot of different skills. A builder who does remodels and additions in the mid- to high-end range would be ideal. That way you'll see all aspects of construction, and it won't be super fast-paced (let the younger guys race to wear out their bodies on that stuff).
Try to find a guy who will let you in on some of the business stuff too, 'cause that's the hardest to learn. And spend lots of time on the Breaktime business board and the JLConline business board, to round out your business knowledge.
My brother, who is a carpenter on Nantucket Island, Mass., just emailed me about a guy he knows who started out in construction just three years ago, hooked up with a more experienced guy, and the two of them have more work than they can handle for the forseeable future. It helps to be in a place where carpentry skills are in high demand, but it's a success story for you.
Good luck,
Mike
Paleo,
While considering all this keep 2 things in mind
1) Most people who own a home from say age 21 to age 31 will be much better off financially than if they had rented from age 21 to age 31.It is this basic fact----and the money it creates that makes what most of us do possible in the first place. Real estate appreciation,re-financing,customers moving up from starter homes to nicer houses etc.----all based on this fact. I am on safe ground making assumptions about 31 year olds "STILL" renting(your emphasis,not mine). My assumptions about this will be right WAY more often than not----but your individual case might possibly be different. Makes no difference to me 'cause I am talking about generalities while you are concerned with specifics------( I am commenting on the average 31 year old still renting----you are concerned with yourself specifically)
2)A lot of the projects you or I might consider----will require more $$$$$$ than would be convenient to pull out of petty cash. A LOT of people handle this with financing---personal lines of credit,business lines of credit,home equity lines of credit etc. guess who gets the higher credit score? homeowner or renter?
If you had owned a home for 10 years you would be viewed as solid as a brick-----renting?---not so much.And As it was explained to me any money I might have in the bank,or stock market doesn't mean nearly as much as I might imagine----because I can withdraw that at any time---poof it's gone. but your house that you have owned and lived in for 10 years----the bank KNOWS you aren't skipping overnight.
BTW---there are WAY more 31 year olds with plenty of experience LEAVING the trades than 31 year olds looking for an entry level gig.Maybe they Know something that the " follow your bliss"," love what you do"," work at what you are passionate about""blah,blah,blah" types are not telling you.
but hey----maybe YOU are the exception to the rule like Andy.but probably not.Statistically I would feel safe betting against you.
Good luck to you---if you make the jump---I hope you prove me wrong.
"there are WAY more 31 year olds with plenty of experience LEAVING the trades than 31 year olds looking for an entry level gig."
That is causing a lack of labour in the pool and driving labour costs up. Good for those of us who remain over the next several years..
Excellence is its own reward!
Paleo: I use to farm and was not making a very good living at it. So I made a change in 1987 and at the age of 33 answered an ad in a newspaper for a carpenter job. I hired on at $7.50 and hour and was ecstatic. I had a steady income ..even if it was small...but most importantly I had a severe obsession to catch up with my fellow workers that had 15 more years experience. I always liked to work with wood and math. It just dawned on me that MOST carpenters were strong in the back and lazy in the head. Stairways require a lot of prior thought and this just opened up an avenue for me to pursue. I soon realized it was my passion for stairwork that was my biggest asset.
I soon find myself "climbing" at a "step" at a time...pun intended..:) I kept pushing myself and my obsession with stairways. I read every article I could find and one article in particular appeared in Fine Homebuilding years ago. It was about custom curved stairbuilders and after reading it..I was never to be the same.
Anyway...I chose to specialize and stay in areas that required much thought...this automatically increases your odds and eliminates a lot of competition.
My advice is to find your passion and this will be the catalyst that just may find you doing something you love for 30 or more years.
Good luck
I know all about aging gracefully, but not everyone does it the same way. Some guys hold up longer. And it's certain that roofing has got to be one of the hhardest, if not the hardest trades going.
When I started it, I was making better money that entry level carpenters so I stayed with it, telling myself that I would get out after three years. I saw thirty YO guys who looked fifty and fifty YO guys who looked seventy after frying in the Florida sun on roofs.
Fifteen years later, I was still trying to get out of it. Customers kept caling me.
BTW, I surprised myself the other day. I had a five square roof on a storage building with two valleeys that I had been postponing because I dreaded the job now that I'm out of the roofers mindset. I started the job at 2PM and was all finished at 6PM, ridge and cleanup, hand nailing, pretty close to my old pace of two sq / hr but I'll admit that I don't know if I could've kept it up all day.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Nope, 31 isn't too old. But you'd better look at the wages of a carpenter versus those of a CAD operator before you leap. Construction doesn't pay very well.
"But you'd better look at the wages of a carpenter versus those of a CAD operator before you leap. Construction doesn't pay very well."
Neither does being a CAD operator - at least not around here. I make decent but not great. What about benefits, do any contractors offer insurance and other benefits?
you are certainly not old for construction- you are more likely at an age where you might retain knoweledge of the hows and whys of building and carpentry than might be expected of say a twenty year old. That is a huge plus! (The kids that work summers with me - well let's say their brains are valuable cause they hardly have any mileage on them.)
you get a job framing you won't be soft for long, cause starting at the bottom means tote and lift.
insurance is - well marry an agent maybe- benefits- all the sawdust you can eat.
let's not forget the sun, rain, ice, snow, hail, sleet, wind and dust storms, and mud. the first commercial job i ever worked we lost a tv crew to the mud. trucks crew cameras, anchor... the whole shooting match. they came out to film some story on real men working in the elements.( we could have saved them maybe but it was break and we were union...of course this is a lie- i have never been union)
you work for the end of the day.
cause that is when you see what you built and feel good about it.
give it a shot- you spend something like two thirds of your life working- oughtta be doing something you want to do
CAD operator is the sort of digital slave job that is now being massively being outsourced to India, China or Russia. You will be better off in construction.
The good thing about construction in general is that the value-added part is local. No way to outsource many aspects of construction, especially trades like masonry, electrical and plumbing.
As for quality work, there will always be people well-off enough to demand and pay for quality work. If you want to do this kind of work you really have to get your skills up, and that means a big committment. Gotta go whole hawg to reach that level.
I'm about your age and work in an archy firm, too, so I know where you're coming from-
1. Some firms can give you a broader experiance than others. I'm pretty happy where I am because I get to do client meetings, model building, construction administration (aka arguing w/ contractors)...in addition to CAD monkey-work. If there was any possibility of bailing and finding an employer who has more respect for your various abilities, go for it!
2. I bought a nice historic colonial; in very good shape for its years, but it gives me plenty of opportunity for all kinds of hands-on weekend work from framing for finishing the attic and basement, to finish carpentry, to scraping paint...
But most of all I agree with one of the other responses - 31 isn't too old for anything! Good luck!
Steve
Some firms can give you a broader experiance than others. I'm pretty happy where I am because I get to do client meetings, model building, construction administration (aka arguing w/ contractors)...in addition to CAD monkey-work. If there was any possibility of bailing and finding an employer who has more respect for your various abilities, go for it!
I am actually trying to get a position with another firm in town that would give me much of the opportunities you describe. They are actually looking for an architect, but may "settle" for a CAD operator. One of my former co-workers has been there nearly a year and says it is a much better place with a lot of room for professional growth. I'm supposed to contact them again arounnd the end of this month. If it doesn't go through I've got to find something else. I'm whithering on the vine here.
Steve J.
It's not too old- wish I was 31 again with what I know now. Keep up with your CAD skills, though. It's your ace in the hole in the event you find you don't like carpentry. I did the reverse of you. I went back to school in my forties to learn CAD after knockin' about construction in various capacities and I'd have to say, I still enjoy swingin' a hammer better than sitting in a cubicle. Who knows, maybe after a few years, you'll go on your own and build what you design. To me the issues would be money- do you have a family to support and can you survive on what you make starting out in construction? ........... and health. You'll probrably be a hurtin' unit the first few weeks wondering why did I ever do this but it should pass. It's physically demanding and you need to work safely and take care of yourself and get/stay in shape. The price is too high if you don't. As for quality construction, it still exists. There are still people that care care about what they do. In your work, you or your company may deal with builders .....keep your ears open, and find out who's good and who's not. Start to network with people and make contacts. I was fortunate enough to work for a friend who was (and still is) top notch. You'll learn more in a few months with someone good than years with a hack outfit.
Interesting responses so far. I'd advise against it. At 31, the best years of your body are behind you. Construction will not put you back in shape, it's doesn't work that way, but it could throw your back out. If you lack professional experience or contacts in the industry, any opening you get will probably be entry level. Which means relatively low pay and tasks like unloading materials and doing coffee runs. The romance of building something with your own two hands will quickly fade. Think how you'll feel both mentally and phyically unloading asphalt shingles in Georgia heat. Just an opinion
GC
"Think how you'll feel both mentally and phyically unloading asphalt shingles in Georgia heat. Just an opinion"
I hear you, and good opinion - more than opinion its a fact. Believe me, this is one of the factors I am considering. It is hot here and very humid. Sometimes the winters get somewhat cold, but usually we have three seasons not quite summer, almost summer and summer.
SJ
I must be the exception as I left a career in sales and went back to my roots doing remodeling ...went back to trade school at 30 yrs old.
I'd say it all depends on the individual.....
Even at 30+ ...short and fat .....I could out work half the young guys on site when I worked with a crew. Production-wise ...not necessarily sweat-wise .....
We worked with a framer in his mid 40's that sweat even more than the young kids ...running around like a madman ....screwing up things left and right.....
At 30 yrs old .....maybe this guy is old enough to know to work smarter ...not harder.
All depends what crew/company he hires on with too ....
I'd recommend remodel over new const .....
Remodel usually give ya more time to think thru the next job ....
New Const is usually bust #### and move on.
In remodeling ...if ya do some back breaking work today ....might have something different tomorrow ...
In New Const ...if ya start out wit the back breaking stuff ....you'll probably be doing the back breaking stuff the rest of the year.
Interview and let them know you'll start as a "helper"....
Not a "grunt".
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I agree with Clancy. At 33 I was at a crossroads - go for the contractor's license or find another career. I too felt the strain on my body, and had not developed the chops to focus on finish carpentry. Chose computer programming instead and have never regretted it.
I don't get the same thrill at the end of the day looking at what I accomplished, but I have found plenty of other challenges and opportunities. It has also paid enough of the bills that I now have a great fixer that gives me tons of satisfaction after hours and on weekends - plus building out a sweet little woodworking shop that will keep me entertained for years.
All depends on where you find your joy. You will start at the bottom and are looking at a good 6-10 years to really get established and skilled enough to drive your own career. Which still leaves you with 25 years or so of doing what you love. Not a bad investment!
Good luck whatever you choose.
Wayne
I feel your pain..I worked for an engineering firm out of college as a CAD draftsman.I lasted about 3 years..Went to work for archy..same deal..about 3 years and I had enough of sitting in the cubicle..I did however build spec houses on the side with my father and brother...
I then decided to go out on my own and build additions and houses...I had bad experiences and basically bankrupted myself...That aggravation wasn't worth it....
I'm 32 yo now and work for a national construction firm building large commercial projects (skyscrapers in Manhattan)..I look forward to every day. Benefits are great, pay is very good (could always be better!) contractors are difficult..but at the end of the day..I feel good about myself and the job..go home satisfied..and look forward to another day...
Just bought a house that I renovated myself at nights/weekends/vacations, etc...so I keep the tools in use...
So I guess what I am trying to say is..31 is not too old to make a change..Think about what would the ideal job be for you..and go for it..
Few people are lucky enough to have a job they really love...
One way to have your cake and eat it too would be to put up enough scratch to buy a fixer-upper in a good location, or figure out a way to live in your current abode, whiel you then take a year or two to finish up either the fixer upper or you new house/remodel, doing much of the work yourself and learning as you go.
The pay-off would be the EQUITY when you sell. A way to get in on the profits from the get go, and pay yourself a pretty decent wage (although the pay check will be delayed) at the same time.
Yes, certainly a risk, and for sure most evenings and weekends for X time period...but you said you aren't afraid of work. Are you single or married? Kids? That would certainly make a big difference in this whole equation.
"One way to have your cake and eat it too would be to put up enough scratch to buy a fixer-upper in a good location, or figure out a way to live in your current abode, whiel you then take a year or two to finish up either the fixer upper or you new house/remodel, doing much of the work yourself and learning as you go."
I have thought about doing this for years, but have been too chicken I guess. If I were going to do it now would be the time. We have a VERY good deal on rent right now and of course int. rates are low.
"Yes, certainly a risk..."
Definately. That's why I've been so chicken.
"Are you single or married? Kids? That would certainly make a big difference in this whole equation."
Married with 2 children (8 and 10), got started early. I Married my highschool sweetheart nearly 13 yrs. ago.
Steve, since I am also in "hot sweaty south Georgia", I'll tell ya what...
Since I'm in the process, right now, of doing a pretty extensive remodel of an old farm house, and I've got a _good_ handyman-type doing the work, he could use some genuinely-good help. If you'll drop me an e-mail, offlist, at < [email protected] > maybe we could give something a try without you having to simply jump in on your first shot?
<Jack>
31 too old! Holy kamollee, man! You're a pup!
I worked at construction jobs for about 20 years and spent the last 1/3 of that time wanting to get out of construction. Now I'm sick and tired of being stuck at any one job (I'm in the real estate biz now) and I'm edging back into construction: building my own home and buying/fixing some rental property. It's better for me.
You would still have a transition period where, as others have noted, you'd get a little beat up and worn out, but you'll get in shape. Not that I have. :)
Suggestions: Start by reading this forum a lot. There are a lot of people here who are very knowledgeable and very generous in sharing their knowledge. Also, read like mad on construction topics. You might start reading Taunton's series on roofing, framing, plumbing, electrical, etc. I think it's a very good start.
If you want to start on your own part time, consider advertising as a handyman. When times were tight in the framing & finish world (where I previously worked), I did every type of odd job from trash hauling to lockset installation/replacement to adding insulation, you name it. If you are friendly with your customers, always treat them right, show up and do what you said (even on the occasion where you lose $!), return phone calls, etc. you can expect to get busy in virtually any location. The size of your jobs will likely increase, you'll get better at bidding (IMO you will have to learn to bid your work if you are ever to make much $ in construction).
I live in town with high unemployment and lots of older folks still can't find anyone to do loads of little home maintenance tasks (or they find someone and will NEVER call that someone back). With me as back-up and coach, my 19 year old son has been making $15 an hour doing such repairs / odd jobs while his friends are working at the A&W.... He returns calls, shows up, etc. It makes all the difference.
If you decide to go this route, don't worry about what you don't know. Look at a job and tell the owner you'll get back to them soon (then do, of course), and go take a little time to decide if you can do the job. If not, be upfront and tell them it's over your head. Just that honesty can get you future work that you can do. Go around to real estate offices with some fliers & cards. Most brokers have customers who need repairs done as part of a sale. We match up handymen and home owners all the time in our office.
I have an old friend who now builds multi-million$ places in the Santa Rosa, CA area. He was about your age when I first talked him into bidding on a bathroom remodel. He admitted that he was mighty worried about that bid... But he went for it, and kept going for it. Now he gets most of his work from architecture firms who ask his company to bid on their jobs. The future is always there in any way you want it if you push yourself to make it happen!
Don't worry about stating at the bottom, the construction industry would be better off IMO if all contractors and architects had to start with grunt work.
Best of fortune to you!
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
"Suggestions: Start by reading this forum a lot."
Have been for a while, but only lurking.
"There are a lot of people here who are very knowledgeable and very generous in sharing their knowledge."
I have come to see that and I appreciate each and every one of you for your responses to my question.
"Also, read like mad on construction topics. You might start reading Taunton's series on roofing, framing, plumbing, electrical, etc. I think it's a very good start."
Reading is something I can definately do and love to do. I have also been thinking about getting some of the videos.
"If you want to start on your own part time, consider advertising as a handyman."
My wife has actually suggested this to me, and it may be a good route to go. Thanks for the pointers in doing this type of work- very enlightening.
"Don't worry about stating at the bottom..."
Best place to start. You learn a lot more.
"the construction industry would be better off IMO if all contractors and architects had to start with grunt work."
I agree!
"Best of fortune to you!"
Thanks, and to you and everyone else here.
I am working a helper-in-transition now on remodels. What you see below is the way I got into the business, and is my advice to him (he took most of it, i think it paid off), and you:
Don't transition for one year. Spend that year DEDICATED to getting in shape. Spend an hour at the gym EVERY day. Think of it like going to school, part of the experience. Your body will thank you. Read everything you can about construction. Fill your head, it will be easier to teach your hands. Go to various projects under construction (permission), and learn by looking. See how everything is put together, learn to look for things that aren't good enough, aren't right, or could be done a better way. Work to make contacts with handymen/remodelers.
After this first year, start working with a handyman-remodeler. Be flexible with money, especially if he has never worked a helper before, and you will be learning. To a degree (meaning don't work for free), accept that you will not be work thirty bucks an hour for every hour you are on the jobsite. Many of us work Saturdays, if not all weekend long. Plan Saturdays to be a work day. Don't forget wife/family/church/civic obligations. You will learn much from an experienced person, plus many tricks of the trade. Possibly work out with your boss to take one weekday a week away from the office, made up at night or on the weekend. Work 4 tens at CAD if you can handle it, four days a week.
Then, negotiate reduced hours with your boss, maybe drop to 32 hours per week. Or work as contract labor, in his office or yours. Keep working with your experieced remodeler/handyman. Hopefully you can find a lasting relationship with a handyman/remodeler.
Finally, take the jump to full-time. I'd still do cad on the side, maybe a day's worth of project a week, just to keep that part of your skills up-to-date. If you drop CAD, you will loose all you know about it in a year away, so keeping active in CAD will give you something to fall back on. Contact local builders -- many have a cad jockey to draw out floor plans on contract basis.
Good luck!
Yes, 31 is too old.
You've got one foot in the grave, man !
What kind of idiot waits until they are a crinkly old man, then changes careers from a sedentary one, to one that will break your back in just a few short years ?
Yer being crazy, man. You'll go broke. You'll always either have too much work, and thereby lose some work... or you'll not have any. You'll spend all your money on tools and trucks. The people you'll work for will hate you for not being cheaper. Your family will hate you for starving them.
I think it's a crazy idea. Leave it be.
; )
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Bitter?
sarcastic??
'er just plain funnin' ya???
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Figured as much. Very funny.
Paleo-- Ive been a carpenter since I was 21. I ( usually ) don't regret my career choice. I say go for it- if you don't, you'll always wonder if you made the right choice. If you decide you don't like doing the physical work, you can always go back to the CAD thing. Besides, most of the people I know have had 2 or 3 careers.
Didn't notice the wink at the bottom, 'eh ?
he he he
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
If you were 51 I might think you were a little too wrinkled up for the change, but not at thirty one. Shoot, That's when Jesus started doing his best work in a new career!
I figured that I was in the prime of my life, physically speaking, at about 32 to 36 or so, so if you can whip it into shape, that body has some good miles on it yet..
Excellence is its own reward!
One of my neighbors retired as a policeman a couple of years ago. Forgot his age, but about 50-55.
At that time he said that he was thinking about going to work with an old buddy of his that was in construction, but he hung around the house about a year he got a part time job at a local hardware store. He was there a 2 or 3 years and this summered he started working with his friend.
He told me that when I said that I had not noticed him at the hardware store. He said that the was on leave and had to this fall to decide if he was going back or not.
This reminds of two stories that I saw in the local paper about 10 years ago.
The first story was a human interest store about a man in his 80's that spent almost every evening dacing in a local night spot area. He did not want he name used as he already had too many 30 YO women after him.
The 2nd story was about a company that was moving operations and offered to move about 1/3 of the employees. One guy that was not offered a move was 35 and said that he had give 15 years of his life to the company and his live was over.
Edited 8/5/2003 7:02:59 PM ET by Bill Hartmann
Paleo,
Go for it. Where else can you work with such adoring clients, with such brillant coworkers and such pleasant weather. The money is very good as are the benefits. It's like working at a health club all day with the tanning bed and sauna included. You even get money if you drop a digit or two, try that in a cubicle. Your fear of heights or closed in spaces will be cured also. Your scars will make for great conversation too.
Down the hot muggy bayou,
KK
Interesting.
I think the thing that makes it harder for most people by the time they are fifty is that they have set mental habits and ways of thinking or approaching problems that can be a big hurdle to get over.
Obviously, you can have mental blocks at 35 or even at 19!
One contractor that I did a lot of sub work for was nearly forty when he started in construction. He had been a milkman for twenty years and retired from that gig just about the time that milkmen were no longer needed for their creamy deliveries. he moved, bought an old building, and started to turn it into a six-plex.
From the stories I heard of his early days, he knew nothing whatsoever about construction, but he caught up quick. The kind of guy who got along with everyone so subs taught him their stuff, he co-ordinated, and organized.
He also got along well with poterntial customers, so when they saw him doing nice stuff to his buildingt, they lined him up for other work.
I oughta give him a call - see if he's still alive out there..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
I think the thing that makes it harder for most people by the time they are fifty is that they have set mental habits and ways of thinking or approaching problems that can be a big hurdle to get over
Ya gotta quit bad mouffin yerself thataway... Oops never mind, I just looked at your PersInfo pic. I guess that you have no choice.
SamT
"Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.From 32866.117
Hey there, You check the same box I do on the Census form fer age grouping, Sonny!
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
The one that says "older than dirt" ??
; )
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Piff, whatinheck are you talking about?
I was 56 when I decided to follow my dreams and get into construction via a handyman ad. Now I'm GC'ing a nice little reno and looking forward to expanding.
You starting to think like an oldster LOL?Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Hi All,
This is my first post, so please bear with me. I was very happy to find this site with all it's usefull info and help. I was particularly encouraged to hear that Aaron got into this business at 56 and made a go of it. I'm 46 and am thinking about changing carrers going into this business also.
For a little background on me, I've spent the last 23 years with the Army and also full time with the National Guard. My working life has been spent working on (and in) the computer repair and communications electronics field. I basically fix broken junk for a living. Fifteen years ago, I got into woodworking and read and built my way into being a fairly good cabinetmaker. I read all the magazines I could find over the years until I no longer read anything but Fine Woodworking unless I see a particular jig or project that I'd like to build. (I'm not trying to be a woodworking snob here, it's just that I've progressed beyond what the others cater to. I also realize that I learned alot in the beginning from those other mags but I've kind of "graduated" beyond their level and now there teaching the next "class" so to speak.) I've gotten to the point where I have made quite a few custom cabinets for others which have paid for all of my tools. But, as anyone who's done it knows, it doesn't pay very well considering the time that's put into a project. It does build skills and pay for tools, though and it's fun. I work out of a single car garage shop so I can't do the kind of volume a big cabinet operation can so I can't really compete in that business. I love fixing and building things and I'm ready at this point in my life to do something I actually enjoy doing.
I do have alot of questions though. Some of the ones I can think off the top of my head are 1.how do you come up with a reasonable price/bid, 2.is it better to start with a GC to learn how they'e doing it 3.do any GC's hire people like me (with knowledge but no experience) on a part time basis, 4.would it be better to just start out on my own as a handyman, 5.do I need insurance right off the bat?
One other question getting off the subject a little bit. Does anyone have a knolwedge about installing a hardwood floor over a concrete slab? I really don't want to install it over a false floor of 2x4's and plywood as it would lower the level of the first step on the landing, which my wife already said is unacceptable. Also, I do have a limited background in hardwood floor installation. I've installed two, so far.
Thanks in advance for your information and help.
Dan019
Why did this thread die all of a sudden? I think new guy Dan has some questions.
Dan-- if you want to puy a wood floor over a concrete one, I would start by making sure that you don't have any moisture problems. You can do that by taping a piece of plastic to the floor and letting it sit for several days. Then pull the plastic up and look for moisture on the plastic. If that's OK, install a full polyethelene vapor barrior over the entire floor. Lap any joints at least 6" and tape them. Then install 3/4 CDX plywood over the poly. You can use Tapcon screws or a power-actuated tool (ramset) to fasten the plywood. Once all this is done, you can install the wood floor in a normal manner, and you only lose 3/4" in height. One more thing-- you should try to check for any dips or humps in the concrete. In my experience, concrete floors aren't always the flattest. Sorry for the long post, but I hope this helps.
Dan-- I was looking at other threads on Breaktime and thought you might want to check out the one named Delta-FL. I'm personally not familiar with the product but it sounded interesting and might help you out.
Shep—your idea sounds like a winner. Went to pick up some rough cut cheery for a display I’m making for someone and talked to the guys there. They mill flooring moldings etc. and they’ve laid a lot of floors. They said the same thing. Lay the vapor barrier shoot down the ¾ cdx then install the flooring. And it only adds about ¾ “ after all the other steps are capped. I didn’t really think about that. Thanks for the info
Dan
Dan-- Happy to help. The only other suggestion I have is to use the 3/4" tongue and groove subflooring instead of the CDX. It might help keep the joints even. Plus, some of the newer products have more moisture resistance than regular CDX.
Dan,
You've got a lot of questions not necessarily directly related to the stated topic of this thread. You might get more response starting a couple of your own threads. In the upper left hand corner, I believe it is, there is a button that says, "start new"
There are several threads discussing estimating and bidding under the "Busiuness" bar heading in the left column. Click on it for a listing of the recent ones, or try the search function to find a topic that's been discussed.
On the floor, you could consider a floating snap together engineered floor product. Only about 3/8" thick plus floatation pad.
Getting started in handy man work lets you price thing time and material until you get yourself a track record and database of job cost for your self. My intentionm in this ioncarnation was to be a one man outfit doing the small stuff that everyone else is to busy for. It wasn't long before i was too busy for the small stuff.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the heads-up.
As I said I’m not too familiar with this posting stuff. “I only fix computers, I don’t actually use them.” (Joke) Anyway, I did figure that out after I was on this site a little while and I did as you suggested. In the beginning I just got lost in that thread and decided to throw the question out.
Thanks for your response. Also the fact that you and others started out with the small stuff and then had more than you could handle is encouraging. It’s exactly what a mentor/friend of mine told me when he started. It seems to be a common story. So maybe I’m moving into territory that those people just vacated…entry level so to speak.
Also, I’ll take your advice and check out the business heading and see where that takes me. Thanks again,
Dan
wow lots of responses here, i think you may have hit a nerve paleo. i was one of the first responders and would like to add. first it occurs to me that you are thinking that being in construction will help you to get in shape, and that you are unhappy about your current level of fitness. let me assure you that even if you work construction you still need to exercise. its a marathon, not a sprint and you have to train for that or be exceptionally blessed genetically. like dinosaur said its not about being strong its about technique and to that i add aerobics. i am not a large man but hold my own with the biggest, strongest, and youngest by being fit and using the best technique. work alone is not enough to maintain this fitness. i will sometimes take breaks from exercising for periods of time depending on the work i am doing but i always go back to it and i am convinced it is necessary.
piffin said something about not being able to change your thought patterns, and i said something about thinking sequentially is the way you work in construction, and i thought a CAD operator may have some insight for this just from drawing plans, i may be wrong, but i prefer to see the glass half full, not half empty.
also others have advised you not to do this for physical reasons, and this may be the best thing anyone can say to you in that when the doctor says you will never walk again is just the motivation some people need to be able to do it.
all my heroes have been working people, craftsmen who at advanced age still possess the fitness of mind and body to do the work of a young man. people who work at the trades when they don't really have to because they love the work. if you try it and love it as some do it will keep you young. i can think of several examples of guys that i have the utmost respect for, and i want to be just like them when i get old. i am 44 now and will continue to work as a builder as long as i can. i hope to be side by side with my grown grandchildren at work someday.
i started very young and came from a construction family. my grandfather taught me a work ethic when i was just a boy. i still have it and it is an everlasting source of pride. i hope to pass it on to future generations. it is never to late to learn, and if you work at it despite a late start you can still be great craftsman. its all about desire, heart, and the character of a man.
do your best to get in shape and stay in shape, never quit trying to improve, never let anyone work harder than you. results are unimportant, its effort that counts, mentally and physically.
Darn right you'ver gotta think sequentially for CAD work, with an overview of the whole at the same time.
unless you want to be pulling your hairs out..
Excellence is its own reward!
No, it isn't too late and yes, I agree that you're just a pup. But life is too short to spend at a disagreeable job. At least it seems that way to me.
Most of what you really need to make this change of career and life is to be found between your ears; determination and the willingness to learn and to make what changes of life style are necessary to see it thru. Change your mind and your a$$ will follow……in this case, I mean that you'll willingly do what is necessary to get your body in shape for doing construction. And there's no time like the present to start. This isn't something you should wait until the last minute to start. You'll need six-pack abs or you'll pop your back. Then you'll be back at the CAD desk.
Not everyone involved in the construction trades is cut out for framing, roofing, or pouring concrete even when they're young (like you). There's no shame in finding out that it's not for you after all or in being aware that those things aren't forever. We'll all get too old one day to cut it anymore.
If you haven't already, you might even consider getting a job with a custom cabinet, furniture and/or architectural millwork. Somewhat less physically taxing than the above and many shops build the stuff and do the install so you get your fingers in on it all. And you wouldn't find yourself standing in the rain or snow all day. That sort of thing isn't all as much fun as it's cracked up to be. <G>
No, you're not too old if you're willing to do what needs to be done to see it happen. Don't forget that this may well mean living a leaner financial life for a while.
31, huh? I'll trade ya. Years, not abs. :-)
Edit: Ya know I'm sittin' here wondering how it can be that at 31 you're evidently feeling at least borderline old. Probably cause you're sitting there all day. I'm 51 and I don't feel old at all. Well, not most days. I'm pretty sure that if you get that body in good shape, your head will think differently about your age and potential......the reverse of what I said before will also prove true......change your a$$ and your mind will follow. <g>
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 8/5/2003 7:08:44 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
I'm 43 and still framing, not sure if that is good or bad. Today it was bad. I was in my early 30's when I started to figure out what was going on, so I don't think you are too old. Maybe you can test the waters first, try being a weekend warrior.
Paleo
My god man you got 30+ years of work left in you, don't do it doing something that you don't like.
If you cant get into shape at 31 then your screwed anyhow, no matter what you do.
I finished college when I was 30, thinking that I wanted to do something else, went back into construction and have loved every minute of it, well not every minute but most of it.
Don't let anybody tell you that you are to old, pessimists are everywhere.
I wouldn't give up on the CAD though, its something that you can always use, all knowledge is good.
Good luck in whatever you do.
Doug
pale- it aint about the destination , it about the journey. go for it life is 90% a do over anyhow. so ends the bathroom wall philosophy session. it'll make ####good difference in the rest of your life....b
no i don't think its too old, and if you wanted to relocate to northern california i think i might even be able to help you with employment. i think you should focus on the positives of your situation, i would love to have someone who is very good at CAD working with me, in my opinion computers will play a large part in the future of successful construction business'. in construction organization and efficiency are key, i have had the opportunity to work on very complex projects, one in particular was with a 3-D computer program, that was so complicated it would have been next to impossible without the advanced software program that was used. i see this being implemented more and more in the future even on simple projects like basic homes. a carpenter is simply fastening two pieces when he drives a nail, it takes a builder to layout, cut and place fastened pieces together in a logical sequential order to maximize the efficiency and stay profitable in todays highly competitive construction world. if you are already drawing the projects to be built you must have some sense of how they go together, the sequential order, and anticipating the next move is how you work in construction.
How old will you be if you don't become a carpenter?
What division do you work in - i.e. drafting civil, mechanical, etc.?
I am sitework at a contractor. It seems the CAD guys do a lot of the design on jobs while the P.E.'s handle clients, route inquiries, and do the conceptual work. Anyway estimator / project manager positions at contractors are reqsonable steps for CAD operators, I've seen it a few times. Closer than the engineering firm to swinging a hammer, but a little better paid unless you're contracting yourself.
remodeler
I was doing side jobs ,nites and weekends while working fulltime as a auto painter.
At 35 I started my home remodeling business. I work alone but have friends to help on the big projects. I mostly take jobs I know I can do well and don't over extend myself. Trim, doors,kitchen and baths are most of the lot. That's what I have been doing for the last 18 years. If you work with your head you won't break your back! Good Luck,Steve C
Most Subcontractors will not want to start someone your age because they can get 21 year old guys enstead that are usually stronger and can work faster for longer periods of time. Plus they don't mind just getting buy to pay for rent and just have a few bucks left over for fun each week. They are not as street wise as you are, so they don't cause trouble either. GW
What kind of personality do you have? Working around construction it's good to have nice and thick skin. Kind of like a football player. Get your bells rung by the guy you really don't like and get up to do it all again. Maybe get a hit on him, just for chuckles of course. You like working around guys like that. Have fun.
Is he back????
Deletes showing up....
He posted right before me last night but it was deleted within 1/2 hour. Matter of fact he even used his real name.
Doug
Edited 8/6/2003 10:43:50 PM ET by [email protected]
I saw deletes showing up thru out the forum lately, over at Knots too.. He used his real name too.?? Gheese.
Gotta admire his persistance...
What?!?
In a thread about mental blocks?
Never.
LOL.
Excellence is its own reward!
did someone say 31 is old?????????????? Whaaaaaaaaa???????
Be 52 and still climbing ladders with 50 lbs in yer nailbag and a 20 '2x12 over yer shoulder
Namaste'
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"Be 52 and still climbing ladders with 50 lbs in yer nailbag and a 20 '2x12 over yer shoulder"
Yeah, but - You're an exception to just about EVERY rule out there.................(-:Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. [Theodore Roosevelt]
There are no rules covering Andy.... He's his own book.
Yeah, but - You're an exception to just about EVERY rule out there.................(-:
Boss, Chief,
There's rules?????
The only rule is to follow your heart and not your pocketbook.
I learned that being brought up in the projects here in N.Y...you should only see where some of my friends ended up (besides jail). Amazing stories come out of inner cities.
If you can get your hands on the book, "Ringalevio (sp) " by Emmet Grogran check it out. He was a friend of mine till he passed on from a massive heart attack on the subway here in N.Y. years ago.
He was one of the founders of The Hog Farm out of Taos N.M and traveled with the Merry Pranksters and me (later on with me...we kinda lost touch in the beginning.actually thats what we were all trying to do...lose touch to regain it if you know what I mean)
Its a real long story......him and me.
Be well guys
Namaste'
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
And you were kidding me about wearing a Paslode on one hip and a Makita 14.4V on the other, Ha!.
Excellence is its own reward!
I was able to do it at 36, used to be a former baker
mark
I was in management for 4 years, a computer programmer for 21.5 years and much older than 31 when I quit my last job and became a remodeler. It is now 2 years later and I have not looked back nor do I wish I had stayed in the corporate world. About 2x / yr. someone tells me that they wish they could do what I did. Granted it is not easy w/ a wife and 5 kids but I have been blessed more than I deserve. I wish I was 31 when I got into this business. That is my 2 cents worth. My advice: Go for it and don't look back!!
dlb
I think that the only advise that you can take seriously, is to try and ease in somehow with weekend, and evening work. I think it was Jimmy Buffet who sang the song about the streetsweetper who said " its my job". Try it you might like it, if you do enjoy, I don't believe that 31 is to old. If you don't like it, then 21 is probably to old. I will admit to thinking the same stufff as others about a 31 year old renter, but you obviously had some extenuating circumstances. Without details, nobody can offer good advice, and with details we are still doing a lot of guessing, the proof will be in the pudding. Depending on your location, if work is not plentifull, I would recommend the fixer house. If nobody else will hire you, hire yourself and prove them wrong. Nicely done remodels will sell well in most areas, so get to it. Good luck no matter what you decide.
Dan
quit working in a office when i was 31 (1973 ) management at head office told me a transfer of 1 year to new plant i would become the plant manager
this was a us co that was one of the 200 largest companys in the us
i quit on principle over a 30 $ arguement. I next went to asia for a holiday incl japan hong kong taiwain hawai etc
i had bought an old (1873) school house prior to this & on return while on unemployment insurance i renovated it , this led to numerous requests for me to do jobs for others. i bought a second property at this time to renovate in the next town knowing that i would have to sell my principle residence otherwise to get any equity out for operating capital.
traded equity from that property for 2 lots built on one sold the otherafter that ibought 43 acres next to home & subdivided into 38 lots which i am still selling..
Spec built with similar experiences as per boss hog now only sell lots
being self employed is never boring but it sure as hell can be very nerve wracking
i semi- retired in 1990 at 45 lived 6 mon at my home in sw florida& 6 mon in canada. after economy went bad in 96 sold florida & put money into supporting my developement in can (figure i lost 1/2 mil due to recession)
come tues my agent has 3 contracts for me to sign on sale of 3 lots (99m)
so things have turned around thank the lord this i have done since i was 31
left home (6 siblings & 2 hole backhouse ) at 16 now have 3800 sq ft home with 5 bath rooms . even though wife & i have had lots of ups & downs in business i have learned you will get nothing if you do nothing .
Out of curiosity foxfire----how did you manage to quit a job and then collect un-employment? I don't think that would work here.
Has the equity in your own home been usefull in any way in your new career----or were you a renter at the time like the original poster here?
all in all it sounds like you made excellent use of your available time and resources. good luck
Dude I say go for it. Im 49 right now and been playing around with side work (escape from the cube farm) for about 8 years. I plan on doing it full time once I retire at 55. There are so many ways to go in the trades that you can start on one and transform into another as you get old. A example would be from kitchen remodeler to trim carp to cab maker for example.
My pal and mentor who passed on 1 year ago this Oct. retired from the cube farm at 55 and was working doing custom high end remodels at age 60. he was a licensed GC prior to retireing for many years and worked after work and on weekends.
I was reading a article in one of the mags it could have been FHB or JLC cant remember exactly where they said the builders were hiring older workers. The jist of the article was the they prefered older workers because of their work ethic. Showing up on time, giving them 8 full hours a day and meeting their commitments.
All that being said I say to follow your dreams. Its best to beable to say you tried something a failed then to be thinking the rest of your life..... what if and never knowing
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
company relocated to new location 220 miles away & idecided not to move after which i collected unemployment ins. for 50 wks.
govt loaned me 15 m in 73 on a 8% lifetime mtg which i used to do renovations on my 1875 2 room school house, now 15 rooms.
prior to this i was renting up to age 31 , even though wife & i had good incomes w
at time of purchase we had very little cash + fairley new car we paid previous owner 5m for building as he was using it as a barn we borrowed 1/2 the purchase price from the vendor and he was happy to lend it as bldg was worst looking building in hamlet. it is now the best with a market value of 400+ (can)
we borrowed against it for some of our other dealings
we have been sitting on a 32 acre parcel acress the st for nearly 10 years
that we have a first option on at a price established in 1992 all id to maintain the option is to plow their laneway every winter free
i made a deal with a farmer to give me 365 bales of hay from it & he keeps the rest (been doing this now for 7 years)
nearly all my dealings are with customers or they became customers after
in dealing with people i have rarely used a contract on paper (if you don,t trust me i don't trust you ) rarely have i been wrong ( i have used psychics on occassion to check out the other guy or person )i often worry about the other persons saftey financially when they deal with me which is why they probbaly trust me
i usually put it on paper just so we both know what we agreed to , just a list not a contract
i have done this in ont & florida ( put a deposit of $250 us on plastic for lot next to home i was selling & sold it to buyer of my home fo 3000 go a profit of $1500) even my lawyer shook his head on that one as you could not legally build on property, the buyer was going to garden on it
not all my dealings are money structured (ie . horses ,dogs cats ,land ,renovations for land , part payment in equipment etc
the 32 acres i'm dealing on i offered vender choice of any 2 lots at time i sub-devide it & they refused saying "what would we do with them"
as this was a nothing down deal i was trying to improve my offer to them
any kin of deal structure beats no deal if you & opponet get what you want in the end & still remain friends (business 7 personally) (even business only will do)
No contracts----but use a pshycic to check out the other party?
that's thinking outside of the box!
I'm 51. I started doing this seriously in my thirties for reasons similar to yours.
My best lead carpenter is 69. He's retired from the building trades, and works for me and a few other individual builders because he likes to.
He pushes me in the a$$.
I push myself in the pride gland.
The customers benefit from both, and everybody goes home proud.
Age has little to do with it.
In the winter, when only someone really desperate would be swinging a hammer around here, I work as a professional ski patroller on the biggest mountain in eastern Canada--I've done this for 12 years now, I think, and I am by far the oldest full-timer there. In the last 5 years, a whole raft of new kids in their 20s has been hired onto the patrol. They're all just as brain-minus as any other 20 year old (that specifically includes me thirty years ago), and they all think they're sh!t on a stick.
They are the ones that get hurt and wind up losing half or two-thirds of a season by trying to use their muscles instead of their brains to do the work. Patrolling is very physical--an empty rescue sled weighs 80 lbs and you've got to be able to lift that thing off the ground, and then ski onto (and off of) the chair lift with it in your arms. It's the youngsters that bitch to the boss that we should have some kind of mechanical device to do that--not the guys in their 30s, 40s, and me. A rescue sled loaded with 200 lbs of injured tourist, wearing 20-50lbs of clothing and ski gear etc., weighs in excess of 300 lbs, and you slide down the hill braking with your legs with that pushing you all the way. The older patrollers do it alone. The youngsters want somebody on the tail-rope even for the bunny trails.
Construction is physical, too. You will need to develop hand and arm strength to handle and control the heavy tools you will use in horrible body positions. You will need to learn how to use your body to save your back, and you will come home with feet that swell a full shoe size as soon as you take off those steel-toed boots. You'll fall into bed at 9pm (if you're smart) and drag yourself out of the rack about 5 or 5:30 to be on site around 6:30 or 7--earlier if you do roofing in hot climates.
I love it. But I work for myself.
The worst part of construction is working for a penny-shaving pushpushpush subcontractor who's working for a fixed contract price, hence the faster he pushes his crews, the more money he makes. The best part is working for a small outfit, where the owner is there swinging a hammer and carrying 4x8 sheets and 16-footers and packs of shingles himself right along with you. Working for an outfit like that can be a wonderful way to learn. Or you can just take the leap, and build your own house based on theoretical knowledge and a general familiarity with which end of what tool to hang onto. You might go through hell, and probably will, on that first house--but the mistakes you'll make there you'll never forget.
And after that, you'll KNOW if you want to do another one. You won't have to ask us.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I understand the predicament.
I am a self-employeed preservation architect that started out at 14 carrying sheetrock to the 2nd floor of apartments. Every minute of field experience was worth a week in the office. After 15 or so years in the field and an education, I took a job in a architectural firm as a project manager.
Now, 20 years later, I am back on jobsite, restoring and converting a National Register property to apartments while returning the common areas and lobby/ballroom to their former glory.
Every step that I took on my path has benefited my current situation. The GC has a very weak project superintendent and the PM has too much work to really be able to focus on this project, so I am all but running the project.
Now I think my next move will be back into construction and/or design-build. I spent 4 good years of my life drawing this project and I am (now) becoming frustrated that it is so hard to get the project executed.
It is not the tradespeople, it is the suits. I have never met a tradesman (except one, and I fired him) that I have not liked and who was not willing to pour their soul into a project as long and they received RESPECT.
Best of Luck and all I can say is GO FOR IT!!
If you want to see if you like working on framing and carpentry, try out habitat for humanity for a few months over the weekends. For free, you can frame all you want, and see what it's like. Just my .02 worth. Good luck.
I don't think it's too old to change careers, but consider this: if you really love something, they say to make it your hobby and not your career. I'm on this kick with woodworking. My dad started in the cabinetmaking trade when he was 14, and I doubt that I could ever give him a run for the money on his furniture making skills. But, I like the home renos as a hobbiest and I hire local contractors for many of the jobs because some of them let me work with them and I learn lots and enjoy this secondary outlet. I also like the fact that it helps my muscles when I don't sit in front of a computer all day. I think you gotta love it a lot to change at this stage, but I don't think it is ever too late, especially if you can afford it.
I have a great Milwakee add posted in my shop. It reads, "Nobody ever got a blister building a Website." Somedays, there's a lot of inspiration in that. I also think there is a hell of a future in the trades.
The challenge these days is learning the right way to do things with pride. A lot of apprentices learn on "production jobs" and they think that the quicker way is the right way. My favourite contractor, who is about 55 years old now tells me that in the old days you worked as fast as you do today. The difference was that you learned how to do a job right first because you needed skill to do things. These days, the materials used make it almost idiot-proof to build things, so there are a lot of idiots out there building. I hope that you don't follow their lead and recognize the difference.
Good luck at this. You might find ultimate career satisfaction in this move. I know an architect who did it and, aside from the toll that carpentry takes on his body, he loves his work!
Joe Redington Sr, didnt arrive in Alaska till he was in his thirtes. He never won the 1100 mile sled dog race which is considered the world championship race because all the countries are invited. He was too busy trying to keep the race alive that he rarely had time to train dogs for it. One time a visitor asked, "what was the big deal with him , he placed 10th the last time he ran. "
Answer;
Well, for one thing he was 76 years young and had cancer .
Nuff said .
Tim Mooney
I'm looking for ANYBODY WITH YOUR ENTHUSIASM, so, if you move to california, e-mail me