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Autocad is definitely not for you unless you are in it for the longest of hauls; it is a huge program, lots of possibilities, lots of time spent learning. Sounds like you could go w/ some other program that won’t be so time consuming.
Furthermore, it is expensive – about $4000 last time we bought (R-14). Autocad LT (lite version) is, ooh, round $2200.
Why can you not do the drawing by hand and let the surveyor, and other folks, enter coordinates for you. We do it for others all the time, just have them charge you for the time if it is determined to be essential for project to be digital.
Hoping others can recommend other programs. Good luck.
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Autocad is definitely not for you unless you are in it for the longest of hauls; it is a huge program, lots of possibilities, lots of time spent learning. Sounds like you could go w/ some other program that won't be so time consuming.
Furthermore, it is expensive - about $4000 last time we bought (R-14). Autocad LT (lite version) is, ooh, round $2200.
Why can you not do the drawing by hand and let the surveyor, and other folks, enter coordinates for you. We do it for others all the time, just have them charge you for the time if it is determined to be essential for project to be digital.
Hoping others can recommend other programs. Good luck.
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Dave,
I've had good luck with MiniCAD Vectorworks. Others in that performance/learning curve range are Chief Architect and ArchiCAD, though the latter is more expensive (about 2 grand as opposed to about 700 dollars for the other two).
There are more, but these three seem to be the leaders in ease-of-use and reasonable price with good feature sets.
The learning curve is a little steep, but worth it in the long run, I feel. As Andrew says, it is like the difference between handwriting and word processing. You are much freer to try something without worrying whether you are going to have generate a whole new set of drawings. The ability to edit is a very liberating thing.
Steve
*Here's something that might get you started and all it will cost you is download time. TurboCAD is now delivering version 6.1 and is both 2D and 3D. But.....in the hope of getting you interested enought to buy the product, they have a free 2D version downloadable from this site. They also have a free version of TurboProject LT, project management software that will generate Gantt charts and other project management info. If you like 'em, use 'em, they're not time limited. If not, get rid of them and all you've lost is the download time.
*I'd suggest AutoCad LT .......it runs about $400 mail order. The learning curve is pretty steep. You can learn it by yourself but I'd take some CAD courses. Almost all community colleges offer them and almost all of them use AutoCAD. As far as a plotter goes ....nice but not necessary. A new C size monochrome plotter runs about $1300 on up. Copy shops such as Kinko's can plot your files from a floppy for a reasonable price. You may struggle with it at first, but down the road you may wonder how you ever did without it ....... making changes is so much easier.
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I would look into DATACAD it is made for creating Buildings. I don't know the cost, it was around $300. The problem will be finding classes or training. I am an Architect that used AutoCAD exclusivly and learning it for one or two jobs a year would not be worth it. I used DATACAD for 3 years prior to using AutoCAD and found it much easier to learn and use. But what can I say, AutoCAD is King of the CAD Business.
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Check out Softplan systems. (www.softplan.com) It's residential software specifically for the designer/builder and has a very short learning curve. It does a very professional job with excellent 3d renderings in half the time of standard line by line CAD programs. It is not cheap but there is a lite version that may be just fine for you. Be sure and check to see if dxf files are ok for export and importing with your professionals as that would be your only option in Softplan as it uses its own files internally. I have a few renderings on my home page if you like. mars.ark.com/~gmitchel/
Good luck.
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As previously posted, AutoCAD can do almost anything but it takes a while to learn how to coax it into doing it.
Consider checking at the bookstores of
b local colleges/universities
for the educational copies of AutoCAD. They're usually a version or two old, but
b much cheaper
($200?) and if you're new to using CAD, the features that were added to the latest versions won't matter to you anyhow.
With CAD you may discover errors that might go unnoticed in hand drawn sketches. A simple piece of advice to a new user of CAD: If you want accurate drawings, learn to use the "snap" feature. (Some specialized CAD programs don't have (and don't need) an advanced snap feature.)
*Daved, What ever Cad program you get make sure that it is compatible with the surveyor, engineer etc. Where I live that usally means AutoCad or AutoCad LT. Good luck
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Daved,
I would definately recommend some CAD courses at your local community college or university if you are serious about doing the drawings yourself. It would be well worth the time invested, and would increase your productivity over the long run.
I've been a DataCAD user for ten years, and find the program to be well suited for what we do (custom homes, additions, and commercial buildings). Also their newest program (8.5) has an "open drawing" toolkit that allows compatibility with all autocad dwgs, which many firms use. Try datacads web site http://www.datacad.com
* daved,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*Along these lines has anybody used the "CAD" type programs from sierra or broderbund, they promise 3d walkthroughs and other interesting little features. I actually have AUTOCAD r12 but 3d modeling with this program takes me longer than building a model.
*Dave - I recently purchased 3D Home Architect by Broderbund and was amazed at how easy it was to get started. It is the little brother to Chief Architect that was memtioned earlier. I paid about 50.00 for it and was doing floor plans within an hour. If you're a computer nit-wit, like me, you might give it a try. - jb
* daved,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*I'm on my way to the computer store today. Thanks guys.Dave
*Soft Plan Lt seems to do all that I need. I think I paid about $700 for it several years ago. It draws elevation views and detail views automatically based on the plan views which you have drawn. (although I have to edit the detail views quite a bit to get the look I want). If you don't have a plotter you can put the plot file on a disk and bring it to a plotting shop.
*Regarding buying AutoCAD educational versions at a college bookstore: The bookstore personnel is supposed to check that you have college ID before they will sell you the educational versions of most software. This is particularly true of AutoCAD. When I bought my last educational copy, there were two educational versions - Prentice- Hall put out a tutorial version that was about two versions behind the commercial release and AutoDesk put out an educational version of the regular package that was one version behind. The AutoDesk educational version required that you send them a registration card with your college registration information on it before they sent back the serial number you need to start the package. I don't recall the wording, but their registration material also made some threatening rumblings about using the educational software for business purposes...
*Well, yes, fraud does have its downside. Imagine giving someone a break on your labor rate thinking they were a nonprofit, later to find out they were sneaky investment bankers.Sorry, just cranky about software piracy.I received a demo of Vellum Solids -- unfortunately just a movie of a demonstration conducted by some salesperson. Vellum runs on Win and Mac platforms.
*The 2-d version of Vellum, Drawingboard, also runs on both platforms. I found it to be a very painless transition from the board to CAD.JonC
*Thanks for all the repsonses!Will Turbocad or Datacad work with the current AutoCad that the surveyors and engineers use?
*Turbocad is okay up to Acad R 14; we'll have to see with R 2000. I haven't noticed any problems with Acad files, but it's hard to tell sometimes unless you are the person drawing in one program and opening it in another. If you go that route, try the free 2d version, but stepping up to the full 3d Ver 6 Turbocad isn't that expensive (less than $200 now, i think), and it's really powerful.
*Dave...good advice so far...however, please don't underestimate the commitment required to learn a new "TRADE"! This in effect is what you are doing... I would suggest taking the course before you purchase the program. You can take this with as many grains of salt as you like. *on a part time basis, I am probably going on 10,000 hours, and only now feel competant* *and likely getting divorced because of it* Be careful when choosing your priorities.L
*10,000 hours? Straight?
*We supply custom design and consultation for RFH and piping systems almost always 2D illustrations. In the past I have relied on moonlighting CAD professionals and CAD students to fulfill the need for drawings and layouts. I could provide the client with a little extra value at a very manageable overhead. Problem was, when the project demanded CAD work under specific timelines, the part-timers as good as they were at what they did, couldn't always meet the deadline. I could usually set down at the drafting table myself and pump out a drawing under pressure within the timeline. Not as professional looking as the CADs but passable and accurate. Not a "fun thing" to have to do under pressure. About 10 days or so ago, I dusted off a copy of Visio Technical 4.5 and decided now or never. The learning curve has a starting point, eh? I wish I would have started the deed 3 years earlier! I am about 20 hours into fooling around with this program and I ain't no quick study by any means. There were no classes offered in Viso in my neighborhood so I am at the mercy of the software manuals, online help and a couple of independently published softcovers. This program looks as if it will do everything I need until it don't. Layers, generating custom shapes and properties, linking with outside databases, the ability to use AUTOCAD formats, storing data within the master shapes you produce, measuring area, perimeter, importing AUTOCAD libraries and a whole sh**load of little niceties that I don't even know exist yet. I have linked to a couple of examples of what I produced in the first 10 hours of fooling around. The mistakes are still there and the learning curve is not unbearable for the type of product I need to produce. I guess what I am trying to say is this: If you are in the construction industry and even think you may have a need to use any type of drawing or CAD program in the future.....do yourself a big favour and get started on at least the simplest of programs NOW! The "Learning Curve" doesn't start until the software is installed and you are finally punching keys and wearing out the mouse. How many of us in our 30's, 40's and 50's wish we would have stuck out those piano and saxaphone lessons when we were kids? Visio Technical 4.5 Practice
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That would be 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, for 5 years, by my guess. That's commitment! (or wild exaggeration!) JRNicholson
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Congratulations!
*Thanks Andrew!
*Hi folks,Picked this news release up off the web, FWIW.StevePENN State adopts VectorWorks, QT 4 for animations23 Aug 99. According to a press release by Diehl Graphsoft, Penn State University, in Pennsylvania, is offering VectorWorks as an alternative to traditional drafting tables for designers. VectorWorks will now be a part of the foundation of the NEW architectural curriculum at Penn State University. Penn State is one of the country's leading universities.A new course, Introduction to Digital Design Studio, presents VectorWorks as an alternative to the drafting table for design studio courses. Along with VectorWorks, form-Z, from autodessys Inc., will be used for advanced rendering. Also of note, the course will cover animation using QuickTime 4.0.According to associate professors Madis Pihlak and Tom Yahner, they chose VectorWorks over 140 other CAD programs because "VectorWorks is robust enough to import large data files, yet simple enough to learn within a few hours of hands-on-training." More information about this course is available at: http://www.outreach.psu.edu/c&i/designtools/DigitalStudio
*FWIW???... ah, for whatever it's worth ...
*. . . not Fiesty Widows In Wisconsin???-pm
*AutoCad LT98 is around $400; LT2000 around $500. Great programs!
*Just in case any of you are planning on becomming full time students in the near future, I just received a flyer from my college bookstore indicating that they will be releasing the AutoCAD "academically priced" version of AutoCAD 2000 in September. The price will be $379, the same as the current version of AutoCAD R14. They are also selling AutoCAD Mechanical Desktop 3.0 for $379 for those of you wanting to do mechanical design...As indicated in the flyer, however, "there are specific end-user restricitons and guidelines to be met to purchase these products."
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I'm a Civil Engineer and was trained extensively with Microstation (several thousand dollars). I also know Autocad (also several thousand dollars) and Chief Architect (several hundred dollars). Full blown CAD packages such as Microstation and Autocad are full of features to make a full time designer's life easier and production faster. They also require many many hours to master. I you are not going to use all these features than don't pay for them. I have found Chief Architect ( a Professional Package) very easy to learn and master and its geared for producing building plans. Microstation and Autocad are designed for the full spectrum (Civil Architectual, Mechanical Design). Choose Carefully!
Plotters are very expensive to purchase (1500 dollars and up) and can be difficult to set up. I havent seen one that can just be plugged in and used. I use a printer that can print 11X 17 paper. The printers, paper and accessories are available at most office suppliers. Color printers start at about 225 dollars wich can be helpfull for working drawings as well as presentations. I make each floor a different color and print out all floors superimposed on one another for laying out plumbing and loadpaths. The prints end up being at a 1/8th inch = 1' scale which is small but readable. The small plansheets are GREAT in the field though, very managable.
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Well perhaps Mr. Duval you can get by on $1500.00 for a plotter.
Surprise, surprise!!!!!
I must work in more than monochrome and 16 colors with the work I need to produce. $11,000 bucks at the minimum for an ink jet printer sufficient to produce workable drawings......or......$6.00 a square foot at the only key plotting station within a hundred miles. That is where the professional arkitekts and cibil injuneers send their chit.
When your drawings span several 8 1/2 x 11 pages, why not use transparencies and plan your layers to get the job done in a pinch?
Yada, yada yada. I could give a flying flip about the cost of the software. The prospects of rigging a half assed fake 3-D view for my purposes. Of prime importance, will the software allow me to present a hard copy to the client for "actual use" without taking out a second mortgage on the family farm?
I'm not making light nor fun of anyone's cad program, I'm only trying to make light of the capabilities that make it useful for those who actually need it and use it. For hells bells, if all you need to do is impress a client with a rendition of a concept? Take a vacation and a couple of hundred rolls of KodaChrome and your favourite Minolta and shoot away.
Frustrated with the available software and at the same time humbled with the learning curve.
I have not seen a "CAD rendition" of a 3D structure that was worthy of even an "honorable mention" when placed next to a "hand drawn" rendition.
MY suggestion: Leave the 3D stuff to the artists unless you are designing nuts, bolts or space craft. Less embarrasment. The level of software sophisitication and the learning curve to master the "cheap stuff" is way out of the realm of the normal builder or subcontractor.
Upon checking out what computer aided drawing software is capable of, I still favor the long haired kids talents with the pen and pencil. Much more realistic and presentable to the client. Of course you have all seen your kitchen cabinets come to life at Home Expo, right? Lookin' cheap?
Enjoyin' 2D for the mechanics,
Jeff
*Hi Jeff,Realistic it's not. Accurate it is, and it can help you try out many options for the client to consider for far less time and money than having it hand drawn.A recent client who has trouble visualizing has had me draw no fewer than 10 different additions for a project they are considering. I've been able to show them 3D renderings of them from any angle, inside or out, all for less than 500 bucks worth of my time. How many hand-drawn perspective renderings can you get for that?I agree with you they look a little cheesy compared to real hand drawn renderings, but they are very useful, particularly when you have a spatial-relationship challanged client.Steve
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Jeffy:
You must realize who you audience is. Dave is doing a few spec homes a year and will probably be a part time user. What I am recommending is reasonable for this. My point is that if someone went out and spent 10 grand on software and another 10 for a workstation and 6 grand on a plotter, they probably would never be able to use it on a part time basis and would be wasting their time. Your right though, 1500 dollars will get you a monochrome plotter. Good enough for D size (22x34) plansheets though.
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My partner and have a company that works as a frame sub 2 or three times a year. We also work as a general contractor. In addition to this work we build 1 or two spec. homes a year.
On the last 2 specs I drew them on paper and then had a draftsperson put them on CAD. This works ok but details are always left out--especially grading. The reason the drawings need to be on CAD is because the surveyor, structural engineer and civil engineer(for the realy steep sites) all use CAD.
The final plans go through a strict Design Review board. In the past I have spent as much time getting plans drawn by an architect through the board and town staff as when I have done the job myself. Redrawing the plans is expected.
I am considering getting and learning CAD. How much time does it take to be able to work with it? What type of CAD would I need? Will I need a plotter? What are the cost? My drafts people have moved away. I need to learn it myself or subcontract to a new draftsperson.
*CAD has had several long threads recently. try here and here.I just started fiddling with a 2D CAD program (Cadintosh, Lemke Software, $32, http://www.lemkesoft.de) and am impressed. It's like the difference between handwriting and word processing. Essential skills for future competitiveness, and a lot fewer aggravations too -- once you learn your way around.Did I put in a plug for Macintosh yet?