Hi All,
I’m getting ready to cut my first crown moulding and have gone through a couple of trim carpentry books. Can’t seem to get a definitive statement on using a compound-tilt saw vs a standard chop saw. Seems like with the standard chopsaw the wood needs to be cut upside down and held against the saw table and the fence of the saw respectively. I’m supposing that with the compound tilting saw this isn’t necessary; the cut can be made with the moulding flat on the saw table. Any feedback here.
The reason I’m asking this is to determine which type of saw to buy. I can get a Ryobi standard chopsaw for a hundred bucks or pay 150.00 for the Ryobi that has the compound tilt feature… Thanks for you help here!
Dave
Replies
Dave, may I suggest to you that buying a chopsaw for one job is a poor cost analysis. Unless you intend to toss it at the end of the job, sooner or later you'll wish you bought a better tool. If this is a one-job decision, then please consider renting - better for the environment.
Oh, standing up-side-down is the way to go with crown if you can; if not, then you'll need a double-compound mitre saw, if the crown is too large, you'll need a slider.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Dave,
I think this was covered in a previous Fine Homebuilding artice but when I did the crown I cut it upside down on a "sled" built for the miter saw. You can do it either way and I'm sure guys who do this for a living are better than me and can almost eye it up but I can't. Keeping the wood orientated on the saw allows you to only worry about the angle between the walls (somewhere around 90 degrees for a regular room). Get one of the tools that measures this angle, set the mitersaw to this angle/2, make test fit pieces in the common angles of 89, 90 and 91, test the fit before cutting the expensive wood and I bet you knock the job out easy.
I have a sliding PC saw which came with a 4 page listing of all the necessary angles to adjust both the bevel and angle to based upon your wall and crown type but I find it almost impossible to imagine adjusting the bevel accurately (IMHO).
BTW, have you decided to miter or cope the inside corners?
Dave,
I have only done crown a few times, and try to employ the 'Kiss' theory! I cut it upside down. I gotta agree with the woodwright...if your going to keep the saw for future projects, get a decent one. If you only need it for this project, borrow one or rent. Good luck!
If you have to buy a saw and don't want to spend a bunch of money, why not go old-school and use a miter box?
When I first needed a miter saw about 12 years ago an expensive heavy miter saw was out of the question, so I bought a miter box and backsaw. I have long since upgraded, but walk before you run.
The Short Answer. No
You don't need a compound mitre saw to cut crown moulding. I think you have to evaluate, as you seem to be in your question, your specific needs.
If I was going to buy a compound chop saw. It would have a 12" blade, only because of versitility. Most of the work I do is remodeling. If the chop saw is set up. I will sometimes use it for everything. From 2 X stock to drop ceiling angle. I use it to cut all types of aluminum, Siding. You name it. The larger saws are nice because they have a wider ,stable base. The trade off, They are heavier, and take up more room in your truck.
To get back to the main question. There is an advantage to cutting crown on a compound mitre saw. You can lay it flat on its back and cut both angles. But you have to take the time to calibrate the saw and determine your angles. etc It takes more time I think.
Using a simple chop saw will work too. The thing to Know. Because you are tilting the stock itself, against the fence. The saw will create that compound angle. As the chop goes thru the pitched stock, vertically on a 45 degree Angle. You get a 45' for the mitre at the proper pitch. The trick is leaning each piece against the fence, the same way for each cut. And remembering to change the direction of your 45' cut.
You really shouldn't have to many of these cuts to make.Unless you are working out side. There can only be so many outside corners in any given room. And all inside corners should be coped anyway . If you want to do it right.
Good luck
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Edited 8/22/2002 6:27:20 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 8/22/2002 6:29:40 PM ET by Edgar76b
Only Phill alluded to the fact the main benefit of a compound miter saw when cutting crown is some crown profiles will not fit with the upside down a backward technique so you have to lay it flat on a table. This allows you to cut crown that is about 12" wide with a scms. The easiest way for you to cut the crown as a beginner is upside down and backwards. You will have difficulty getting the bevel set exactly- with the other method this isn't an issue. Good luck.
Most of the crown that size is built up. And you Can Add a peice of stock to make your fence Higher.
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Edited 8/22/2002 6:33:41 PM ET by Edgar76b
I'm not sure it's an issue of adding a temporary taller fence. Sometimes the problem is that the blade has only so much cutting capacity.
That is for sure.
I guess you could do a little math. If you want to plan ahead, measure the face of the Profile, looking at the end grain, that will be your Hypotenuese. Do a little square root dance and plug that into your A2+B2=C2 formula. You can figure out the hiegth, before you buy the saw.
My 10" delta will cut a little less than 5" high stock. Sometimes I have to cut that last 1/4" with a backsaw. If it gets to close to the Arbor Nin o. Not a problem.
If you are using stockwith US standard 38'-52' that is even easier. Just remember the Cyma-Recta will always go on the Bottom of your profile. You just have to be able to flip it all around in your head. Think about it twice and Cut it once. It can be confusing. "I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
I do a lot of crown moulding in alot of older houses and I use the upside down and backwards method with a older 12" Dewalt compound mitre saw. You don' t really need the bevel feature unless you have a ceiling that changes from flat to slanted. Then a double bevel is nice. I also use crown stops so the spring angle is constant. Yes they are overpriced for what they are but they sure save time. On the other hand one of my friends who is also a finish carpenter always cuts his crown on the flat with a 8 1/2 " hatiachi slider. He has always done his crown on the flat and he sure is fast. I think it just which way you learn and which way you practice. I think it is easier to make intuitive adjustments with the crown up against the fence rather than on the flat. A bosch miter finder is a very handy tool if you do a lot of crown and it will tell you the mitre and bevel angles for corners which are not square.
John Q.
That bit about "intuitive adjustments" deserves as much time, as this discusion on tools. Possibly it should have it's own post. When I do trim, there is always an adjustment to be made. There isn't any tools or formulas that can account for that.
I think one of the first realizations I ever had in the Art of Carpentry, and trim work especially, was the insignificance of the tape measure. The pencil is a much more important tool. That isn't to say that your stock doesn't have an exact measurement, only that you don't always need that information, to do the job.
Make sure when calculating the crown moulding needed for the job, that you add enough for using the drop. Each time you cut a mitre you will likely need to cut off the an amount equivelent to the length of your Mitre cut. That could be as much as 6 or 7" sometimes plus having enouh for adjustments. I will add about a foot to my estimated length, to get a useable peice, It all depends on your Job.
What I mean is once I figured to get 2 pieces out of a 10' piece. I forgot about the lenth of the mitres. I was short . I had to go and get another piece.
In regards to the bevel feature, I have put a pencil mark on the saw desk as a reference point. Then I can lean the piece against the fence . It can then be regestered against the fence, the same way each time. Those bevel stops are nice though.
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Edited 8/23/2002 12:23:48 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 8/23/2002 12:25:48 PM ET by Edgar76b
Nothing electrical powered is required. You can use a hand powered backless cross cut saw and a mitre box-- darn, I did similar jobs that way for years. Cheap saw for a one-off job from Home Despot= $20 and a home made mitre box from scrap ply or MDF-- it's just a deep U shaped channel that holds the moulding at the appropriate angle and costs no more than half an hour of time. For a one-off job in your own home this is high technology to the n'th degree. You might need to add a $15 coping saw to your armoury for the inside corners and a $2 rasp or two for refining the back cut. That's it, and a wee bit of practice. Now, if you plan to go out and put cornice or crown moulding into hundreds of houses, and can think of many uses for your new chop saw, then buy the chop saw, but otherwise, I'd question the need for anything electrical. Maybe I'm just old fashioned. Slainte, RJ.
Dave, I would recommend that you buy a ten-inch chop saw. It's a great basic tool that you will be able to use for years to come. For a good explanation of the "upside down and backwards" method, check out Tom O'Brien's video tip. This tip can be found from the Taunton home page. This may (or may not bring) you there: http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/hvt034.asp
John,
Are you the John Carrol of "Working Alone" and the video tips on this website? I'm guessing you are and I thank you for your advice and your book which I'm purchasing today!
John, just to confirm, when you say 10''chopsaw, you mean without the compound tilting feature. If so, the only chopsaw I've seen over at Home Depot (maybe I need to look elsewhere!) is a Ryobi for 100.00. What do you think? I would be using the saw regularly, but not every day.
Thanks again
Dave, I am the same John Carroll you describe. To me, the decision to buy a standard miter saw is a slam dunk. It costs about the same as a decent circular saw, you can set it up in seconds and it is a workhorse of a tool. I've had three since the mid-seventies and I've used them for everything from framing to siding to trim (including crown molding). -JC
John; Just bought and read and reread your marking, layout book. Very good read. I'll cherish it for years. Next I'm going to buy the working alone book.
Thanks for being here for us. Where did you grow up in Md? DW is from Towsen. We are now in Charlotte!Old mis-marked Pro
Old Pro, Thanks for the kind words about my book. I lived on the Eastern Shore (in Salisbury) until I was 11, then we moved to Prince George Co. (Bladensburg), just outside of Washington. I have a brother in Towson, one in Baltimore, one in Frederick Co. and my mother lives in Ocean City. So I still have strong ties to Maryland. I've lived in North Carolina for two decades, however, and really love it here. I do miss the steamed crabs, though. -JC
DW just informed me that my spelling of Towson wasn't correct. Please excuse the southern (Southern) language liberties. Most of us are educated. Some just can't spell!
DW also just informed me that she also misses the steamed crabs and the rockfish as well. That stuff is pretty good until y'all go messing with nature and cover all the flavor with danm old bay (she also thinks ole bay should be capped) (I think the originator of old bay needs to be capped) LOL. Here in the south (South) we bread it to lock in all that great seafood taste. She will never understand southern (Southern) food. She does eat okra now. All of a sudden she expressed interest in Gumbo. Now we're talking!
PS We got a Turkey Fryer (for fish)Old Bay Pro,
What people do to crabs in North Carolina would be considered a crime in Baltimore. I went to what was supposed to be a crab house here in Durham and the steamed crabs were served with melted butter and almost no seasoning. That, my friend, is like shredding and baking pork with no spices, then serving it with melted butter and calling it barbecue! IMHO, coating seafood with batter and frying it is akin to painting mahogany or walnut. -JC
Dave,
I started out with a mitre box, then graduated to a standard mitre saw. I was never satisfied with the initial fits.
Before the compound mitre saws were popular (about 15 years ago) I ended up buying a Delta Sawbuck. This is essetially the for-runner of the compound mitre. I immediately started getting great results. The Sawbuck is more robust, has a bigger platform, and is generally designed much better than most compuond mitres. It is also much bigger and more awkward to store.
The Sawbuck was pretty pricey, and I am not sure if it is still available. If you run across a used one it might be worthwhile to purchase. All parts are still available through Delta. It is built to last forever, with regular maintenance.
Good luck
To all,
Thank you folks very much! Never thought there would be so many thoughtful and knowlegeable replies...I think I'm going to save my bucks for the Rigid 10'' compound saw: 179.00 and a lifetime guarantee over at home depot.
Again, thanks.
Dave