Another contractor and I are working together on a project this Fall and it’s a great learning experience. Our strengths are complimentry, so the division of duties has been a relief for us both. The best part is, I get to see how another business works, which often makes me examine my own business practices.
For example – concrete forms. I have my own forms (handed down from a friend when he went out of business), the contractor I’m presently working with does not; he always rents forms.
This job we are doing together is a pretty large time and materials remodel, over 100K, with a couple small additions. So we will be renting forms, and charging the customer the rental fee, which seems fair to me.
Would it also be fair to charge the customer the price of the forms rental, purchase as many forms as possible for that ammount, buy the rest out of pocket, and keep the forms at the end of the job? Then, on the next job, take the same approach? The customer would be paying the same as if we had rented the forms, so it wouldn’t cost them anything extra, and we would accumulate forms through the years.
I’m not asking if it’s smarter to own forms or rent them. I’m asking if what I propose would be fair to the customer. Does it seem shady? Manipulative? Reasonable? What say you? I hope to hear from homeowners and contractors alike.
Thanks – Jim
Replies
Can of worms. Did they plan on paying for form rental? It's like I want to replace a door, are they expecting to pay sawzall rental for me? They might assume you already have the necessary tools and equipment. Understood, you're on a much bigger scope here. I'd say if your contract specifies exactly what T+M really equals and you've got a provision in there stating we will have to rent forms and you're paying for the rental, then you're safe. If not, then even the appearance of less than ethical on your part might equal trouble down the road. T+M quandries have been rehashed a few times here, and there's some worthwhile gouge on it if you want to do a search just for collective thoughts on T+M vs. flat rate bidding. I know it's not what you're asking, but it relates and might be worthwhile.
If i understand your question... I as a homeowner would have a problem if it was a time and material price but if it was a flat bid price and i agree to and sign a contract then it doesn't matter what you are charging me for.
Dan
Another homeowner perspective. If you laid it out before me just like you did here, I wouldn't care which way you did it. If you didn't ask, I wouldn't know unless I asked for a copy of the rental bill. When you didn't have one I would think that was kind of shady. Renting forms would be covered under the "materials" part of T&M in my opinion.
"A completed home is a listed home."
Jim,
I would think you would be charging a standard rate for concrete work, x$ per yard, or running foot, or square foot of 8" wall, etc.
So how you form up the walls and get them poured should not be of any concern to the customer.
If you can buy forms for the going price, or even for a higher price, if the customer agrees on the price, Buy away!
If this is T&M then maybe you should spread the cost over several jobs.
Mr TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Jim,
It's fair, he has to pay the same dollars for form rental regardless. My question is, are you paying for the forms out of your half of the profits, and will they be yours alone, or are you guys going together on the forms and own them jointly?
JohnJohn Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
We're going to rent forms, John. It was just a thought that crossed my mind as we were pouring the footings yesterday. It was him that landed the job, so although we exchange a lot of ideas, his vote counts as two on stuff like this.
You raise a good question, though. My inclination would be for either him or me to purchase forms. We are only working together this job. I've been in a couple other partnerships over the years and division of tools/inventory/stash when the partnership ends can be akward...kind of like getting a divorce I guess.
Nice to see you around. How's your son's football team doing?Brinkmann for president in '04
Jim,
As Lisa said, be up front and everything should be cool.
When you say "his vote counts as two on stuff like this", what exactly do you mean?
Jon Blakemore
I think he means like president/vice-president.
Since the other guy got this job, he is the senior partner. On a job that Jim gets, Jim would be the senior partner.
Jim, I hope this is reciprocal from the other guy, when youse are working on one of your own jobs...
Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time
Jon - It's like Luka said, if we can't reach consensus about a particular decision, he gets the final say. He found the job, ultimately his name will go on it. I think it's fair for him to have final say and for me to support his decissions, as long as I don't have to compromise my professional or ethical standards. So far, that hasn't been a problem. He's a straight up guy.
Brinkmann for president in '04
This job has already been bid , but when I have expensive equipment , I always bid the job. Seems that I make more money. I have a full set of automatic drywall finishing tools and a texture pump. They dont get worked by the hour, simply because they make me more money being bid in. Same thing goes with a big airless. You have to charge or figgure a job using expensive equipment or as pfn said , you just get to watch it be wore out. The only reason I buy big ticket tools are to make more money. Some smaller tools are bought because of being handy. But just because these forms were a gift means nothing to me , because the next bidder is not likely to be as lucky. Im considering buying a big rotor rooter , to use in my rentals , but Im expecting customers to pay for it , at $75.00 a pop.
Tim Mooney
Here's a new question....why bid a job T and M when you don't have the tools to get it done?
From where I stand.....t and m should only be bid when all the tools and know how are in the van......anything with rentals and unknown costs should be bid..as a bid.
That way..there are no questions about hidden and last minute costs. just seems like better business practice. A sub would give a set price based on him having all the tools and equip needed.
Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Well, in our case we decided a T&M bid would be the most reasonable way to go because of the uncertainty of the job. There were a lot of unknowns that couldn't be determined until demolition was complete. We have a 100 year old house which started out as a small square farmhouse and which has been added onto in all four directions by different people over the last 100 years, mostly without permits, and some on an apparently very tight budget.
The contractor gave us his flat CYA bid, which was very high, but had to be in order to cover the unknowns. We all decided that we'd rather do it T&M, knowing that worst case it will come in at his bid price. Whatever he ends up needing to buy or rent to do the job we pay for, and we pay him for labor whenever he gives us an invoice. He gets paid hourly for any time he spends on our job - on the phone, at the lumber yard, whatever.
His only sub is the tile guy who is doing the saltillo floor, and that was a "won't be over but could be as high as...." bid, with me ordering and delivering the tile, thin set and grout to our house. Again, the tile guy just couldn't really see what he will be dealing with until we got demo done.
So far, so good. Until we took out the wall between the kitchen and the family room, there was no way to know that the slab in the family room was 2 1/2" higher than the raised floor in the kitchen. He even tried to determine it with his laser level but couldn't. He didn't know he would have to use a jackhammer beforehand, so it wasn't "in the van".
It seems our logic was the opposite of yours: "anything with rentals and unknown costs should be bid..as a bid." How do you bid complete unknowns, short of really upping the bid to CYA?
We've had more good news than bad, and I've been getting really creative sourcing materials, so I think we'll all come out well. Maybe this kind of arrangement wouldn't work for all contractor/client relationships, and certainly wouldn't work well for a client who was funding their project with a loan. Depends on the circumstances.
"A completed home is a listed home."
Edited 10/6/2002 2:54:34 AM ET by Lisa L
I was refering to Jims post..where the unknown was the know equip need.
Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Jim,
I see no problem with you having to rent forms and the customer paying the rental for this job. But I do see a problem with you "Telling" him he's renting the forms and in fact he's buying them and you're keeping them.
On any t & m job we do the customer keeps any of the "m" that's left after the job's done,he paid for it,and we get the "t" money.Vince Carbone
Vince,
I don't understand how you can have a problem with Jim telling the customer that the customer is renting the forms... from Jim. Jim owns the forms. He is renting them to the customer himself. (In the hypothetical situation presented.)
He is not buying the forms surreptitiously, and telling the customer that he is renting them instead. He is being upfront about telling the customer that the customer is actualy renting them from him, not some rental store.Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time
luka,
My only problem would be if jim told the customer he was renting the forms and then kept them.If Jim owns the forms and wants to rent them to the customer that's fine.
On t & M jobs that I do tools and equipment are supplied by me, their cost is already in the cost of what 's being charged per hour.If I don't own the equipment that will be needed the customer is told in advance and they are responsible for rental costs.
But I wouldn't tell a customer I was renting something have them pay for it but keep it.
Vince Carbone
Agreed.Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time
I can't speak for Jim, but for me...
I work and live on an island. There are no concrete subs out here. It is hard to get one to come from the mainland because of cost shipping all the gear out on the ferry and once it is here, they are prevented from working other jobs in their area. Occasionally that means the only sub willing to come out is because he is out of work over there. Guess who always runs out of work first in an area? The one who does the poorest work. If several of us have foundations lined up in line, we can get some good people out here,
More often, for a small job, I'm going to need to pour it myself. Since I don't do concrete as a rule, and hate to do it, I'm not going to bid and take a chance of losing my butt doing something I hate. That's a bad way to start a new job - kinda ruins the attitude. So I am charging T&M..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin , Ive had this info in waiting for you. My brother lived on Marthas Vinyard Island , and did the same thing as you. Isnt it true that your rate is a lot higher than the city across the water ? He told me of many things that were high because of living on an island , like getting a concrete truck across the water, along with trades men . The real point to living there is that you are able to live on the island to recieve that higher pay ?
Tim Mooney
Nope. The real point to living here is that it is a nice place to live. Some hate it because of the isolation and all. The rates get a little higher (not quite as bad as the Vineyard) simply because it costs more to live away like this and because it takes a higher rate to miotivate workers to undertake the commute. Housing is extremely scare, materials deliveries have to be planned ahead, storms can cut you off, etc.
I've almost always lived and worked in smaller, somewhat isolated communities so it's no biggie to me but some folks feel very cut off and can't stand the isolation. There are always methods and opportunities (like Breaktime) to make outside contacts. But other people don't always want such a quiet,peaceful place. So skilled labor is a scarcer commodity. Scarcity can drive a price up.
Suppose a man can make 20 bucks/hr on the mainland. If I want him to work over here, he has to be paid for at least half of his commuting time. So in a day, given ferry schedule, he can work 7.5 hrs actuall with half hour lunch and get paid for 8.5 hrs. He's gone from home for ten hours and gives up the convenience of working close to home, kids, dentist apts, lunches with wife etc. So maybe he negotiates for travel time both ways or for 22/hr. Add the cost of the ferry tickeet and I am paying closer to $25/hr actual time worked for a twenty dollar man. A local boy figures out the math and now he is worth 25/hr in the marketplace. Add the insurances, overhead, and taxes and you can see cost adding up. These are rhetorical figures. My guys are at 24 and 26 plus trans time
So I'm not going to add another dollar an hour for forms on all the work I do when I might only do form work once every couple of years. I jusy puit it on the job that calls for the cost.
Just like your Roto rooter. You won't add another dollar to every paint job, you'll charge a fee for each use..
Excellence is its own reward!
You have 27 form panels. You need 32.
You tell the customer that you do own some concrete forms, but not enough. You will rent the forms you don't have, and charge comparable rent for the forms you do have.
As long as the customer is aware they are renting the 27 forms from you, then where is the quandary ?
...
But I really don't see the overbearing neccessity to tell the customer.
When you estimate a job, you put in your overhead, do you not ? That nice van of yours needs maintenance once in a while, right ?
To argue that you already own the van doesn't hold water. Because you still have to pay for the maintenance and replacing of bad parts/whatever. The customer's job is going to contibute to wear and tear on those panels. The same as it contributes to wear and tear on the van.
The cost of the panels should be worked in the same as the cost of the van. But only on the jobs where the panels are actualy used.
Whether you tell the customer or not, is entirely up to you. Not explaining in minute detail, just how the cost of the panels was worked in... Is no more irresponsible or illicit than not telling them in minute detail how the maintenance and upkeep on the van was worked in. Give them a price, and if they like it, the job is yours.
...
One last note.
The panels were free to you, if I read this thread right. Because they are free to you, doesn't mean that you should not charge for their use.
Unless you intend to just use them till they are gone, and then start renting from that time forward.
If you intend to keep buying panels to replace those you have, when they wear out... Then charge rental for them, so that you can afford to replace what wears out.
If you don't intend to keep on buying/replacing them, then don't charge for their use. Make a point of it in the contract, that you are saving the customer the cost of form rental. Gotta be worth a few doggie bones in customer relationship.
Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time
No, without supporting documentation, that might even fall under the category of defalcation. You can't claim a purchase because it's not a consumable and you can't claim a rental, because you didn't. You have the option of going to the customer and asking him in advance if he will accept renting the forms from you at the going rate of the local rental agency (explaining that you don't have the forms, but would purchase them). Another option is a rental/purchase agreement with the supplier of the forms (you rent them this time if he will apply the rental towards a purchase). And there are probably some tax anomalies to consider.
Unless you set up a separate entity to own equipment that you "rent" from or you set up a surcharge schedule for certain tools at the time of signing the contract; you're in a quagmire. PS, the surcharge schedule is fairly common with larger companies for things like cranes or specialized in-house services, like in-house architect or CAD tech. If it's upfront, it's good business, if it's a gotcha to the customer, then it's shady business.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Thanks to everyone for their opinion, in both threads.
Lots of legitimate opinions have been voiced. The truth is, if I didn't kind of wonder about this approach I would never have posted the question. I think it's a delicate scenario, one that could lead to bad feelings if not addressed openly by contractor and customer. In fact, if I were to propose this to a customer, it would have to be someone I was totally confidant would level with me if they thought it at all questionable. I quess that alone should tell me to avoid the discussion in the first place.
As for the issue of charging customers for tool rentals, again, it's a judgement call. I think a good percentage of contractors do not have their own forms. I wouldn't if my buddy hadn't given me his. So when those contractors who normally rent forms do a t&m job, the customer pays the rental, right?
Piffin brought up a great point about either developing a way to charge them to each job they are used on, or raise the overhead for EVERY job, whether the forms were used on that job or not.
Seems like a slippery slope.
Brinkmann for president in '04
"So when those contractors who normally rent forms do a t&m job, the customer pays the rental, right?"
Yes, but it should be clearly stated in the contract. If you already own the forms(or whatever ) , and you are trying to re-coup the investment, that should be included in your over-the-top profit percentage.
The question of working t&m vrs. bidding work has been cussed and discussed many times on this board. I'll just say I see advantages to both and bid some jobs, while working t&m on others. This particular job is a large (for us) remodel with many unknowns and decisions to be made later as the job progresses - compounded by the fact that the nest egg the customer has to work with is shrinking daily as the stock market continues to drop.
Bottom line though, working t&m puts the contractor and the customer on the same side of the table, trying to get the best possible results for the ammount of money invested. When you bid a job you immediately become adversaries, the customer trying to get the most for their money, the contractor trying to deliver what she promised and still maximize proffits - not a healthy relationship, in my opinion.
Brinkmann for president in '04
Good always to be upfront.
But I will disagree vehemently about your suggestion, "of going to the customer and asking him in advance if he will accept renting the forms from you at the going rate of the local rental agency ".
Jim is not a slave or peon needing to beg permission. He is a craftsman and a business.
When I go to the local gasoline selling business, they don't ask my permission to charge me $1.79/gallon, do they?
When I have my plumber come in to repair the heating system, he doesn't ask my permission to charge me 45 bucks per hour to do the work does he?
When I bring my excavation contractor on the job, I don't expect him to ask my permission to charge me $28.00/yd for inch minus plus $32/hr for an operator plus $40/hr for his excavator or dozer.
In each of these instances, the business person sets the rate he needs to charge to supply the goods and services that I might want. If he sets them too high, I might go purchase them from someone else. Other factors will affect my decision, for instance whether there is another place to buy gasoline on the island, whether the plumber can show up tonight before the pipes freeze, or whether I want to dig a foundation by hand after loosening the soils with a rototiller.
These are all choices and negotiations. In the intrest of good relations, it is nice to be able to be transparent and lay your cards on the table but there is no moral compulsion to do so, it is more a matter and manner of communicationg and negotiating a plan that is good for both parties.
I stand by the fact that if a price does not support the continuance of a business, something is wrong with the price. You can factor it in either way you choose but it must be factored in. If you don't, you have to work extra hours to pay for the privelege of owning the forms and watching them get worn out. That time is time stolen from your family. Not much different, in the final analysis, than sitting by and watching someone walk into your house and steal your TV. Matterof fact, by volunteering to buy the forms, you are holding the door open for them..
Excellence is its own reward!
Seems to me like a lot of the difference in views here is related to a T&M job vs. a bid. I have a contractor working with me right now, T&M, remodeling our kitchen/family room.
I agreed to his hourly rate, understanding that he would use any tools that he had at the rate. I also understood that I would pay to rent any equipment he didn't have, like the jackhammer last week. If he had told me he would have to rent a jackhammer, but would prefer to buy one, and asked if I would pay the rental rate to him so he could put that towards the one he was buying to use on my job, I woudn't have had a problem with that at all. I had planned to pay the $70 anyway, why would I care?
On the other hand, if he asked me to do the same for every tool the job required I'd think that he needed to raise his hourly rate to stay in business! (In reality, he has been loaning me some of his specialized tools to do my part of the work, and I'm very thankful.)
If I had accepted a flat bid price, I wouldn't want to know where his tools came from or how he paid for them or what he planned to do with them when the job was done. That's more like the scenario Luka was describing.
"A completed home is a listed home."
Good point.
So the bottom line is... If it's a T&M, tell the customer. If its a bid, just factor it in ?Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time
I'm agreeing with that take on it Lisa. The jackhammer comparisson is a very good one, especially from my point of view. I have an electric Bosch Brute that I bought under similar circumstances. The yard charges $5/hr to rent one. I bought it for $1500 and charged the customer $45/day for it's use. The tool needs to be serviced every 250 hours and the average sevice job runs to about $2.25/hr. That means that in a ten hour day, I am making nothing on the tool. Service, upkeep and maintainance are not often considered when charging tool costs to a job. .
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm agreeing with Lisa on this one, too.
Jim, I just signed a T&M job with very much the same circumstances as you.
As I see it, there is a certain amount of tools and equipment the customer can reasonably expect me to bring at no charge because I am a builder.
There are also certain pieces of equipment that, because of their nature, could not possibly be covered by the overhead in our presumably modest markup, and are not part of the usual complement of tools that a small builder would be expected to have.
In my case, I was completely up-front with the customer to the point of including a clause in the contract about what equipment I would be charging an hourly or daily rate for.
That way there's no surprises and no confusion.
The clients were 100% OK with this, and actually seemed to appreciate the candor.
I think as long as everyone is being up-front and honest such that fully informed decisions can be made by all the parties concerned, then there's probably no ethical problem.
Good post -- thanks.
DRC
Piffin,
Does a 250 hr. service cost you $562.50 (250*2.25)? That seems high.Jon Blakemore
Jon,
Yes, it does.
In addition to the $350 bucks or so I get to pay about $80 for shipping because of being on an island. my highest service for the brute was $567.00 and the cheapest was about three forty. I don't always wait for the 250 because if I have something major coming up, I don't want to have it squat on me while I'm needing it.
There's been a lot of good points raised above here to think about. Luka especially. I never thought about charging for a circ saw blade because I see that as standard equiptment and they last a long time. But I do charge for sawsall blades. I know there are times in demo and remodel that I would be losing money if I threw them in. On many larger jobs I also add a tooling charge which can be from eighty to four hundred dollars, based on sharpenning planner blades, carbide eighty tooth 12" blades, and cutting special profile knives or router bits. I bring a blade to the job sharp and expect it to go hme the same way. Lots of router bits will only go one job. Any millwork shop I ever subbed to made a tooling charge and/or a new cutter charge for special casings or other millwork.
Lukka asks what else might they want to ask you to bend over for, since you already have it?
I get my truck and tools to the job and home again. Materials are delivered. If the customer wants me to use my trucks for something else, they pay by the mile. My trash trailer sits at the job and when I charge for the dump run, it includes dump fees and an extra 20% for the trailer to get it there, plus the mileage on the truck. I estimate dump fees for a job at so much per trip.
Customers know what they are getting from me and what they are paying for. I think that is the point all of us are agreed on, the customer needs to have access to info for time and materials jobs. I consider it fair this way because a customer is paying for what he gets, specificly, instead of paying high overhead on all the work I do. When I make a major purchase on equiptment that will only be used occassionally and that is not typically owned and provided by every builder, I calculate depreciation, maintainance, and storage costs, then estimate the useable life to come up with a fee to charge for that piece of equiptment. It often comes quite close to rental yard fees..
Excellence is its own reward!
Your last paragraph said in better words than mine, exactly my view of the situation.
The last thing I would want to do is to cheat a customer, or to have a customer even feel cheated. I would definately explain the situation.
But some people don't seem to understand that if they EXPECT the contractor to supply things of this sort without recompense, they are expecting to cheat the contractor.
I don't think anyone here is in business to subsidize the jobs that they do. They are here to make a profit. Just the same as any other business.
Circ saw blades... I probably wouldn't charge for them now either. But when I was in business, the sawblades were all carbide-less. I never charged for those then either, until I worked for a GC that insisted that I charge for them. Even had forms to show the circ/sawzall/utility knife, etc blades, sandpaper, pencils, chalk and any other incedentals that we had used. He bought me a new set of chisels when some idjet broke one of mine using it as a prybar. Said that was covered in the cost of the job as well.
Don't bogart the Ghost
Quittin' Time
This is a T&M job. That's "time and materials", and has a fairly narrow definition. The "time" portion has already been fixed; that's means a rate has already been set. Jim is not the prime contractor (it's hard to tell if he's technically a sub or a secondary contractor). Unless there's a stipulation of exclusion within the contract, the only legitimate "materials" are those charges that flow through and you generally must provide receipts for major items, but can umbrella small items in a % uplift (again, that's in the contract). If you intend to supply goods that you aren't purchasing (maybe you had them on-hand), or performing a service that attracts a surcharge, then you have to identify and negotiate those items with the customer: you can't bill a customer a surcharge amount for a non-consumable and tell him "well, that should cost extra so I billed you for it". .
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Concrete form panels _are_ consumables. Just like circular saw blades, pencils, chalk for chalk line boxes, blades for utility knives, etc... Only on a larger scale.
They are materials, not tools. They are materials used to construct concrete forms. They are not indestructible. They are by nature, sacrificial. It is not unusual to lose one or two panels to attrition, on a job. Even those that are pulled off in shape to be reused, will only last for just so many jobs.
They may not get immediately consumed on one job, like a circ saw blade. But they are just as surely consumed over the course of several jobs.
To charge rental for the forms is no different than to charge for circ saw blades. On a job involving concrete form panels, it is not unreasonable to charge for wear and tear on the forms. No more than it is unreasonable to charge for the metal ties that hold the panels together. (Which are broken off, and left in the wall.)
Those ties have no other purpose. They are used to help make the concrete forms. Just like the panels. The difference between them and the panels is that they are used up on one job, where the panels will last for several or even many jobs. But eventualy the panels are used up as well.
The only way that charging for the panels could be a problem is if Jim were to charge the full purchase price of the forms to the customer, and then keep the panels himself.
There is a difference here, in what Jim is suggesting. He is not talking about charging the customer for the full purchase price of the panels. He is talking about charging a rental price that will reimburse him for the wear, (consumption), that occurs to the panels on that job.
To add a reasonable charge for the form panels, is not begging, any more than adding the cost of a couple circ saw blades.
To presume that Jim should give the use of the panels for free just because he already owns them, is ridiculous. Greedy. Wanting something for nothing. It is asking Jim to subsidize the job. When did Jim ever "take the customer to raise" ?
If you hire Jim to do a job, and you push him to submit his panels to wear and tear for your job... for free... you are trying to steal from Jim. He should justifiably start wondering just how else you were going to try to make him bend over and drop his pants for you on this job.
Don't bogart the Ghost
Quittin' Time
As a separate aside, "asking" is not "begging" unless one is over-the-top arrogant; it is negotiating. Because this wasn't in the original contract, you have to negotiate (negotiations open with the party requesting a change to present that request to the customer, commonly called "asking") with the customer to accept billings from you for 'equivalent to rent' materials charges..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Pretty much ditto to that. seems fair to me. On T/M (which I rarely do), all tool rentals get charged; on bid jobs, they get factored in and charged to the customer anyway.....same as anyone doing work for me....I pay, one way or another.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
What impresses the heck out of me is the integrity and ethics clearly displayed in all the above postings. Would feel comfortable recommending any of you to work on a relatives house. Can't add anything to the thread except for my clear sense of what customers have a right to expect:
Bid: Assuming good faith negotiations, a finished product that fairly reflects the total amount they paid. What the monies actually paid for (e.g.: full versus pro-rated cost of a piece of equipment) is not relevant.
Time & Materials: Honest billing of hours, billing only for specified materials (i.e.: no hiding or shifting of charges).
Regards,
Rework
" You have the option of going to the customer and asking him in advance if he will accept renting the forms from you at the going rate of the local rental agency "
That's just like asking a client if they will pay a rental fee on your circular saw.
If the forms were "in the truck", then I'd agree with you; in this case, Jim is contemplating buying the forms and recouping part of the cost through a going-rate rental - as per Lisa above, most customers will cheerfully accept that arrangement IF it's presented in advance rather than a fâit accompli. But charging for a rental that never happened, now that's when nasty words can start to enter conversations..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario