On the recent “Hitchhiking to Paris” thread the great Boss Hogg allowed as how he had been to Paris once and (except for the Eiffel Tower) he wasn’t impressed. Several Breaktimians piled on, saying that travel is broadening, especially for construction types. What are your thoughts on this? Here are a few of my travel impressions:
1. In Scotland the DWI plumbing is always OUTSIDE the building (the buildings are invariably stone or masonry so you can’t run pipes through walls). You can see that there are two independent systems: the gray water system connects up to the gutter and down to the sewer, while the sanitary goes straight doen to the sewer. There are also some mysterious open pipes projecting out from the wall, pitched downward slightly. I have no idea what these do. Vents?
2. Also in stone/masonry houses in the UK, when you want to add a cable run, you chip a furrow in the stone wall, staple in the cable, and replaster the furrow and cable. No drilling through framing. Since the voltage is 220, the cable is thinner than our romex. I mean thinner wire gauge.
3. In Rome you see concrete domes a couple of thousand years old, e.g. the Pantheon. How does an unreinforced concrete dome stay up? How did they pour the concrete?
4. In rural Mexico the lack of safety on construction and forestry sites is horrific. Teenagers in flip-flops working jackhammers and chain saws.
5. In northern France they roof with slate, in southern France with tile. (Actually I have never seen asphalt shingles anywhere in Europe.)
Maybe some European Breaktimites think North American practices are interesting?
Replies
There are also some mysterious open pipes projecting out from the wall, pitched downward slightly. I have no idea what these do. Vents?
Sounds like overflows to me. The practice is with toilet cisterns, to fit a pipe that will carry outside the building any overflow that results from the ball valve sticking open.
I personally think travelling is vastly over-rated. After all, as a wise man once said, without going out of you room, you can know all there is to know
John
Javier,
My wife and I get to travel a lot. Countries I've been to include Canada, Mexico (so many times I have minimal desire to go there any time soon), Hawaii,(Big Island, Oahu, and Kauai) Bermuda, Germany, France, a healthy chunk of the UK, Italy, Austria ,Switzerland, Luxembourg, Iceland (1 week), Hopefully you get the idea.
Yes, it amazes me the HUGE differences in building practices and safety, especially in Mexico. Kinda' makes you wonder why some building inspectors are so enforceful of codes. If they only saw some of the structures that have stood for close to 1000 years. (certainly not anything close too code compliant in the USA). Or the Mexican wiring (alligator clips tapping off the main on the street........above peoples heads at an outdoor cafe'.
Jon
>> How did they pour the concrete?
They didn't. They used a very dry mix and packed it into the forms. Similar to mud base for tile, if I understood correctly what I was reading.
The Germans use (used?) a similar system for building the autobahn. They don't pour slabs for highways, they use a very stiff mix and beat it into place. (They also make the slab about twice as thick as we do in the US, according to the article I read, and between the high strength mix and the extra thickness, their concrete highways last longer than ours.)
The semi-dry, lean-mix [18:1, aggregate:cement] is commonly used as a base for blacktop -- placed and levelled with a heavy vibrating roller. It is not reinforced and has a slight flexibility.The concrete road surface is air-entrained, full-strength concrete -- maybe over the semi dry leanmix sub-base.
IanDG
Well, I think travel is "broadening". When I was in the Army stationed in Germany, I loved the food and gained 20 pounds. (-:
Funny you should mention the Paris thing. Seems like some in that thread thought I "should get out more" just because I didn't like Paris. I don't think I'm obligated to like another town or country just because I've visited it.
I liked every town I visited in Germany, Austria, and Luxembourg. Just didn't like Paris.
I'd have to say I learned a lot from being in different countries. It's hard to imagine how differently they think unless you've been there.
So use the term "broadening" or "enlightening" if you must. I'd simply say it give you more of an understanding of how others live, and how differently they think.
He that does good for good's sake seeks neither paradise nor reward, but he is sure of both in the end. [William Penn, 1644-1718]
You didn't like the curb side toilets or the French's general attitude of themselves or toward anyone not French, is that it???
I didn't like the place either....
Here fishy fishy....
The French, colloquially known as 'Frogs' in here in England, are our natural enemies. They have a habit of teaming up with the Scotch against us. Doesn't do them any good
John
When you gig for "Frogs" there's no limit...
Here fishy fishy....
I really do not understand this antipathy toward France and the French. When I got out of the Army (I was stationed in Germany like Boss) I hitchhiked through France with next to no French and was treated in a courteous and friendly manner by everyone except the cops. More recently, returning to France with my wife and more French, I've had the same experience. People in shops are patient with our French, when struggling with a map, passers by come up and offer help, and so forth. So, what's up with this anti-France stuff?
I'm not anti-France or anti-french.
All I said was that I didn't like Paris.
I do believe it's possible for 2 different people to go to the same city and have different experiences. We all take our own perceptions with us when we visit places.It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to have to paint it.
I didn't like Paris but Calais was nice.
Here fishy fishy....
I think Munich was my favorite out of the cities I visited. Really cool town.
Paris was the only big town I visited in France. There was one day I went on a bike trip with an adorable blonde teenage girl. We rode into the eastern edge of France and through a few tiny farming towns. They were kinda cool.Congressmen have been bought and sold so many times they should have bar codes.
All of southern Germany was partyville. Liked all of it.... Rural Bavaria... Holland, Denmark and Sweden were something else...
I gotta go back...mmmmmmmmm. Rural any where's Europe was cool...
Here fishy fishy....
I have to agree with you on this one. I went to Paris, and didn't like it much, at least compared to other places I've been. Big cities are often cold, impersonal, and full of rude people. Tourists just get in their way, so they don't like them. Paris was like that. Southern France was great though.
They did it to themselves. All I mentioned was what I observed...
EOS.
Here fishy fishy....
Maybe they didn't recognize you as American ?.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
peut-être
gotta agree with you - - at least some of the current french bashing is the result of a juvenile reaction to the war in iraq politics - - we visited in 2001, and found Paris wonderfully entertaining and polite - - our time in the country/small towns was without cause for any complaint - a little bit of fractured french goes a long ways towards gaining a positive reaction from populace...
we were treated rather rudely in Switzerland, but we were there on their national holiday, and I can't really blame them for not wanting to deal with a bunch of tourists on the one day they apparently lighten up -"there's enough for everyone"
---"we were treated rather rudely in Switzerland, but we were there on their national holiday, and I can't really blame them for not wanting to deal with a bunch of tourists on the one day they apparently lighten up "---
I lived in Switzerland for several years and I never saw any one lighten up. Ever. But they are normally friendly and polite.
"in Switzerland . . .I never saw any one lighten up"
I'd agree. Remember a Swiss guy applying as a day laborer and wanted to know the retirement plan! For day labor.
I did get shorted 2/3 of the time I purchased something there. I would just stand there, change in hand, until they gave me the rest of my change. Clearly they knew they were doing it because they didn't argue, but had just assumed my math skills were as bad as my langauge skills.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
well, we hoteled at Entelbuch up the valley from Lucerne - - the town had a beer/food tent set up, local talent of various sorts (the alpine horns were memorable) exhibited, followed by a live band with popular favorites till about 2AM - - seemed pretty loose to me - - but not loose enough to invite a tourist to sit down and buy a beer - and that's OK, just different from here - - the fires/fireworks on the hilltops were pretty neat - - -
the rudeness we experienced was in Lucerne itself, as everyone was ready to get the hell out of there and have a good time away from the bane of loud overweight tourists (of course our family exhibits perfect apperance and manners!) - - it was not malicious, and since I have the same reaction to people sometimes, I refuse to get upset over it - - beautiful place, glad I saw that little part of it - "there's enough for everyone"
Entlebuch and the Lucerne valley are really pretty places. I bicycled thru there.
Since I tend to keep to myself, maybe I just didn't notice if people were nice or not.
I would not consider their dancing and singing, pretty as it is, to be very animated, more in the boring category. You didn't miss much, I think.
You didn't miss much, I think.
ya, we saw/listened to enough of the local talent - - after dark, my eldest and I wandered down and sat at a vacant table and listened to the band till they shut down - - really a pretty good show - - only thing we missed was the food and an invite to participate, and that's OK - it's their town, it would be different here...and I have no room to critizise someones dancing - ya oughta see (not) what I do..."there's enough for everyone"
Ahh -- the "auld alliance"! And "Ecosse" bumper stickers on cars in Scotland.
I can't believe that nobody is mentioning the various toilet styles. The US toilet uses water in the bowl to "seal off" the odor of the solid waste as it is "deposited" in the toilet. So many toilets in Europe have elevated platforms with just a quarter inch of water on them to catch the waste. The smell is orders of magnitude greater than you get here. Then when you flush, you are left with a dirty streak you need to clean up with a brush. Other toilets have a design such that the waste ricochets off a dry slope and into water. That's better odor wise, but still leaves you with a dirty streak. The "Turkish style" hole in the floor toilets are interesting, but at least if your aim is good, they work just fine.
People in the US gripe about the low flow toilets here today, but they are orders of magnitude better than what many places in Europe have.
Other than the plumbing, I love the buildings in Europe. They are so much more solid. The rolling exterior shutters that most homes have are a great idea. I wish we had those here. They must save in heating a lot when you close them at night. I know they keep rooms in the summertime much cooler.
My wife hates the "Turkish" toilets. Apparently it's hard to keep your skirt, etc, out of them. When we are in a cafe in France, our routine is that I check out the toilet first. My ageing knees don't like Turkish toilets either. Plus you can't sit and catch up on the newspaper.
I could never figure out why the round holes vs the diamonds... But speculating... ROAR!!!
Here fishy fishy....
The US toilet uses water in the bowl to "seal off" the odor of the solid waste as it is "deposited" in the toilet.
And, of course, the water in the U bend prevents vapours from the sewer escaping. Invented in England, of course, and the only type to be found in this sceptered isle
John
Speaking of international toilets:
Saw a website that claimed that those "shelf" toilets are because of the German penchant for examining one's stool as an assessment of health issues. Which also results in the smear and the smell.
Saw a cool idea in New Zealand, "a pan fan" which activated on a seat pressure switch and drew air from the bowl while you did your business. What a great idea - take the stinkiest air before it even enters the room and exhaust it from the house! I would have brought one back except it was 220-volt and needed a purpose-built toilet - big and heavy ceramic as usual.
The Kiwis also had more bathrooms equipped with fan timers. So that motion or hitting the lights would automatically ran the fan and kept it running a few minutes after you left.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
New Zealand is one of my favorite countries.
Sign in the public toilets, Jeddah AirportView Image
New Zealand is beautiful -- such a contrast to Australia
IanDG
I don't know why Australia gets such good press. I mean it's OK. Don't get me wrong, but compared to New Zealand, it's just a barren wasteland.
It can only be the animals -- NZ doesn't have a single native mammal.
IanDG
And it has more critters that kill you because they bit your shadow to qoute somebody here...
Here fishy fishy....
Nah -- only Red-back spiders, Funnel-web spiders, Paralysis ticks, Box Jellyfish, Blue-ring Octopi, Platypuses, most snakes and the Cane Toad are fatal -- the rest just lay you up for a few days in unbearable agony -- No Worries!
IanDG
>> I don't know why Australia gets such good press.
Maybe it's because the Aussies are generally glad to see you, while the Kiwis would pretty much rather you'd stayed home.
My experience is that Australians are far more anti-American that Kiwis -- and far more racist generally.I don't recall a NZ equivalent of the Oz "Septic Tanks" as slang for Americans.
IanDG
More follow-up on euro-toilets:
http://www.spies.com/~scott/misc/toilet.htm
From which: "The excrement lands on a bone-dry horizontal shelf, mere inches beneath one's posterior. . . . is in fact designed to facilitate stool examination. . . . forced to grab a wad of toilet paper and give the horrid thing an encouraging nudge" and so on.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
K. My 2 cents.
Hong Kong. Scaffolding is bamboo lashed together. ALL THE WAY UP THE SKYSCRAPERS. Plumbing is on the outside. Saw no evidence of safety cables or nets.
Clean people, but they totally decimate their environment. What they do to the harbour is criminal.Unfortunately, Stupendous Man's cape is caught in mild-mannered Calvin's zipper! Curses! Calvin
All scaffolding in England used to be pole and rope before the advent of tubular steel.
Some of the old-timers said the pole and rope was safer because the steel couplings loosened in cold/hot cycles [true] whereas the rope lashings stayed tight.
IanDG
They have a habit of teaming up with the Scotch
Teaming up with distilled spirits usually is detrimental the parties forming that alliance--it will cause dellusions of grandeure (thinking one's self 10 foot tall and bulletproof just not a good combo).
We sons of Caledonia are quite willing to live with the Picts & the Gaels--but the Angles & Saxons can be a different matter . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Thought somebody might nibble on that one.
Had a look at your profile, whereabouts in Scotland is Texas?
John
whereabouts in Scotland is Texas?
If you want the exact location, you'll need to use Mapquest. It's north of Dallas (is Scotland, TX), and West of Highlands, TX, norhwest IIRC of Argyle, TX. Not far from Edinburgh, TX, either--luckily the towns are all of different sizes so that the Friday night football game is not Highlanders vs. Highlanders . . . <G>
Dallas is in the Central Highlands near the single malt tour route, if I recall rightly. (One of the rares of the malts is Dallas Dhu, a favorite of the crew of USS Dallas.)
I was quite happy to celebrate the late St. Davie's Day with a bit of cock-o-leeky soup, even if I wan not quite tough enough to waer a keek in my bonnet. Come 6 April, I'll be celebrating National Tartan day, too. Even if that confuses the Czech, the Molravians, the Bohemians, Poles, and German types around here (polka & pivo good--just not in kilt).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"You didn't like the curb side toilets or the French's general attitude of themselves or toward anyone not French, is that it???"
Actually, I thought the toilets were kinda cool.
There were a lot of things I didn't like. The obnoxious attitudes were definitely up there on the list. Glad to hear I'm not the only one who didn't like the place.Rejected Hallmark Card: Looking back over the years We've been together, I can't help but wonder ...(Inside card) What was I thinking?
Actually, I thought the toilets were kinda cool.
If you had caught the place when it hadn't rained for several days and the comunal sewerage ditches hadn't got flushed....
Or most of the French seemed to use gallons of perfume because bathing / showering isn't in their creed...
Here fishy fishy....
"Or most of the French seemed to use gallons of perfume because bathing / showering isn't in their creed..."
I didn't notice that.
But - Being a redneck - bathing/showering isn't high on my list either. No maybe it just seemed normal to me......(-:Rejected Hallmark Card: I'm so miserable without you ...(Inside card) It's almost like you're still here.
But you don't go 6 months to a year without one ... Do ya....
Here fishy fishy....
everything we do is or should be broadening. if we pay attention anyway.
i love to travel- been here and there- going again.
off to france next month- hopefully to romania from there to see our little girl. (we are adopting- she is a year older and no closer to coming home. )
so it goes...
been to spain,england,ireland,slovakia,czhec republic,hungary,italy,germany,austria,switzerland,denmark,poland,lichtenstein, canada,mexico,and i guess that is it.
my brother in law is taking my kids to africa in a year and a half- he and i are going to padagonia this fall...
traveling is like breathing in my family
Last time I was in Wales, the friend we were staying with pointed out the water disposal lines. One sanitary sewer line and a totally seperate line for downspout runoff and grey water. House was sided in a rough-tooth product similar to stucco or "tabby" Powder coated steel for soffit and fascia. Similar material for the window frames.
This was quite near the Bristol Channel, so I'd imagine the grey water went to the bay.
Most everything built in south Wales is solid masonry.
Greg
i grew up in london england(emmigrated to canada in 66) and remember exterior dwv pipes
another unique but dumb idea was a large water tank in the attic no idea how big but do remember it leaking one time and the bathroom ceiling collapsed
i have many relatives in north wales and most of their houses were built from stacked slate with thatched rooves
caulking is not a piece of trim
"another unique but dumb idea was a large water tank in the attic "
Yeah, the British have this goofy restriction against running most fixtures from "the mains". You can have the kitchen sink and the reservior in the attic but nothing else. The reservior is at atmospheric pressure and tops itself off like a toilet tank. So the upstairs shower it about 3 feet below the reservior giving you less than 2 psi to spray through the shower head. Feels as if someone is pissing on you. Some people are into that, I'm not.
I believe part of the reason dates from upstairs cisterns that filled with rain water as the only option for those few houses that had inside plumbing 200 years ago. That was done only a little bit in the US. Most of our indoor plumbing was contemporary with the development of muncipal water supplies.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Hot and naked sparks
feeling of being pizzed on
This is more whackiness than I have heard from you in all these years. Travel seems to have broadened your perspectives, for sure, LOL
the attic cisterns -
The big old places here had them. Back when they were built a hundred years ago, and indoor plumbing was in it's infancy, the pumps on the wells were one cylinder gas powered with a three foot flywheel. The cylinder was about the size of my leg. I think I know where there is one still with weeds and trees growing up through it...
Anyway, it was explained to me that they pumped erratically and pressure tanks didn't help much. The engine was also loud and smeely and it took some nursing to get it going and keep it oiled...
The rich owners came here to get away from noisy, smelly, cities. They didn't want that thing running around the clock so the kitchen girls could have easy access to washing water.
So they included the cisterns in the attics with overflow onto the roof via lead pipe. There was a float control for shutoff but I believe the startup was manual.
On the subject of travel broadening one -
I had a client tell me once that he enjoyed having me work on his house because it was obvious to him that I took time to look at a problem from multiple viewpoints before attacking it. He said that he was sure that this came from the fact that I had lived and worked in multiple settings. I had never thought of it as being anything good or bad, one way or another.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
UK plumbing:-
The stormwater [rainwater] system goes to soakaway pits -- big fine for running it into the sewer system.
The pipes projecting from the walls are overflows from the storage tank in the roof, etc. By code, these have to discharge over a walkway so they are a visible warning to the householder that something is amiss.
UK electrical:-
A lot of the stone/masonry houses pre-date electrical supply.
All power outlets are on a ring main -- the cable starts and terminates at a 30 amp breaker in the box. Cable used to be 7 strand, .029" -- I haven't worked with it since metrification. Stove and water-heater have a separate supply from the breaker -- 7 strand, .044" for the stove, 30 amp breaker.
IanDG
I was struck, my first time in Europe as a 21 year old that every engineer should travel to see how many different ways there are to solve the same problem.
Road-abouts for instance. Americans would spend a bundle on engineering and highly-reinforced concrete overpasses to make a cloverleaf. You travel further if turning but keep your speed up. Whereas the round-about can be constructed by a crew with shovels and wheelbarrels. A potential area to save money if you are providing national health care.
Point-of-use hot water heaters have been in wide use in Europe for decades. Partly because plumbing itself is a retrofit and 220-volts makes the wattage easier. And they're used to short and wimpy showers. In an older stone house, there's only cold piping fixed to the walls with a little POU HWH in the kitchen and another in the bathroom.
DO NOT touch the piping on a POU HWH in South America. The piping often carries return current. Sometimes I want excitement when I'm wet and naked but not that kind.
Urban design and the European assumption that youo shouldbe able to take the tram to work and do all your shopping on foot. Used to be true in US cities beyond SF and NYC but the suburbs, cars, and malls killed that.
Metric! Helped a Dutch friend remodel a 300-year-old, 3-story row house. Nothing is on 4- or 8-foot intervals, of course. So much easier to add up 120 mm + 382 mm + 231 mm than 46-7/8" + 132-1/2" + 108-7/16".
Travel is broadening to me. I look at construction, and other things, of course, everywhere I go. There's a tremendous amount to see. I'll only mention one here, though. In England I was struck with how homes are constructed to last centuries. They don't build disposable homes, with plastic siding and gravelled tar coated paper roofs. Buildings really last a long, long time. In fact, in no where else in the world (I've been to about 12 countries) have I ever seen a mobile home. Not one.
Oh, I guess a second thing is that all the light switches in England work upside down, down is on and up is off.
Most of the posters seemed to be facinated with plumbing. Then, Paris is for you! Its the only city in the world where you can take a guided tour of the sewer system.
Immediately after the war, America shipped to England a lot of pre-fabricated homes [pre-fabs] that were designed to last 3-4 years. Some of them were still standing and occupied 50 years later -- we look after our homes!
IanDG
This yaer I had the Broadening effect of El Salvador, Mali West Africa, and Paris. Those slanted pipes coming from the roofs in Africa anyway are drainage for the rainy season. The block laying there is a lot like french block laying. really dry mud and mostly plumb, but heavily dependant on a surface bonding stucco-like coat. The building codes in the Saharah desert are a little loose. El Salvador was great because you never met a stranger! Many homes there were literally 4 sticks and whatever can be found to make walls. lots of what Americans would consider adject poverty.and a few monsterously wealthy families.They have everything we have here except land phone lines. those keep getting cut down for the copper value. Seems funny to walk into a hut-like shack with dirt floors, no windows or running water and hear a cell ring and see 3 people check their pockets! Ahh progress! One thing I will say, we've got it great in this country! You can choose to be anything you want and prob get it if you work for it! Miami