I had to travel up to a city 2hrs away on the weekend because my old Japanese boss had a “special” job for me. Him and his crew wanted me to help them frame a floor for a few days.
The foundation was a pad with 2′ walls. Mudsills were 4×4 treated all around, with girders at 16 inches. The joists were 2×8’s on 6″ pitch!! To top it all off the sheathing was Douglas Fir plywood, 1 1/4″ thick 4’x8′ sheets. It weighed a ton! I got the call because I was the big Canadian, and “We must build houses like this one all the time in Canada”….. not! We got the floor done, but I really felt like paying a visit to the architect, or better yet, calling him to the jobsite and getting him to help hump the plywood across the floor.
I asked about the reasons for the super-strong floor, but they gave me no really good reasons. The customer was a little worried about having a weak floor, so that’s what the architect came up with…..as far as I’m concerned its irresponsible. How many trees from North America did it take to make that floor….?
S
Replies
Sumo training?
That does sound like a tremendous waste. I hope the waterproofing details are good, and the roof is well built. The best you could hope for is that there's 4 times as much wood in it as needed, but it might stand for 200 years...
Friggin architects. It's so easy to snap those lines on a cad program... you kind of forget what it really means.
k
Yup....Its the architects....I heard that the architect for that project suggested the idea of using that really thick plywood....without actually doing any calculations or anything, basically just a cosmetic thing to set the customer's mind at ease. Thats what really ticked me off. The architect or salesman has to set the customer's mind at ease by telling him a regular floor system is plenty strong!!
S
sound like you want to build to minimum standard that you want a short cut, yes its a overkill, a big overkill, but is it hurting anything. It proberly be the best place in a storm or eathquake. I want to build concrete hurricane proof housing but its a overkill. American just want minimum standard that look pretty. wasn't for code enforcer, quarenttee they be building to less standard than today.you ought to go shake the hand of the arch "Damn good design" he not building the norm.
I agree with what you're saying, but its part of a bigger problem. I build houses and finish them for a living here in Japan, but I'm Canadian. I know what is standard back home, and the standards here. There are lots of things they do here for earthquake protection, etc. that I would do on a home in North America, even if the place wasn't prone to earthquakes. Overbuilding, per say, is OK> I was addressing "overkill" in my first post..... the joists (at 6"pitch) never spanned more than 8' at any part of the floor....3/4" ply would have been plenty strong.....
The problem is, waste is waste. Plus, whenever they do things like that, they rarely give carpenters extra money to use those products. For example, there's no labour price difference if the joists are set at 6 inches, or 12 inches. In my contracts I supply all nails, glue, fasteners, etc. so there's a huge labour increase and fasteners increase as well.....but they don't pay for it.
I don't mind when architects spec stuff that is higher than code, in fact, I respect that....but I hate it when they just over-spec things just to keep the customer from whining.
I think someone pointed out on another post, that if you really want strong floors, you would put the plywood on in two layers (a layer of 3/4" and a layer of 1/2") with the seams offset (and probably use glue or construction adhesive between layers). With the joists at 8" though, I don't suppose it really would matter much!
Haven't heard the phrase "joist at a 6" pitch". Does that mean 6 inches on center? Thanks for educating me,John
Haven't heard the phrase "joist at a 6" pitch". Does that mean 6 inches on center?
Thanks, I was wanting to ask the same.
Don't feel so alone in my wonderment now. :o)
Yup. Just shows you that I've been over here way too long! 6 inches on center.... sorry....
Danno is right.
A laminated floor skin will be stronger. Quick question, if you are there working flat rate--are there no specifications in your agreement to prevent you getting pinched by spec changes?
On another note...
Tate--have you gone to visit any temples yet? When it comes to stick framing for the Japanese it is like learning another language. You are there to teach. When it comes to their unique brand and passed down knowledge most of us would be freaked out to see how those old temples were built.
First step... choose the trees to be used in the temple up to a quarter century before using them. No joke...
Before they are dropped they mark the direction the tree was standing and their orientation to each other.
No kidding. They place the lumber in the temple in the same orientation as it stood in the forest.
The timbers are then quartered and squared off and then they get to rest-- air dry for 10-25 years depending on how large. (to prevent cracking and twisting).
Those guys know their woodwork. We use many of their techniques small scale.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
For house building contracts, I have to give a sq/ft price. Most of the time its the same price, then I have a meeting with the company, fight, negotiate, and then sign a contract. They leave out as many details as possible so I can't charge more, plus they only give me the blueprints the day of the meeting, so I can't study them ahead of time. Its this particular company's way of doing things, and I'm getting really tired of it, but there aren't anymore 2x4 housing companies in the city I live in.
Yes, I've seen lots of temples, I have a huge one that was just built up by my workshop in the mountains. It cost over $140million apparently. I know the methods they use to select the wood/beams, etc., but its changed a lot these days, due to lack of trees. You'd be surprised... A lot of Yellow Cedar from Canada is now being used in temple construction, although its not advertised.
S
Ick... yellow cedar. Now why wouldn't they use doug fir or something a little stronger that comes in lengths longer than 8'--and isn't mostly rotten when they get it--you know, without the core of the tree in every piece. Say it aint so. The masters forgot how to build huh?
They can keep that temple.
You'd want to whisper in there for sure so it doesn't fall on your head.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
I guessed right as to what "pitch" meant, but got the number wrong (I said 8", not 6"). Seems like at such a close spacing, he might as well go all the way and just nail the joists together and make a 7-1/4" thick floor!
It sounds like there is a distinct lack of creativity over there. This recession has hit the Japanese hard...since it has lasted what--15 years so far?
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Maybe they should be taxed for the wasted carbon footprint.
You've seen the pictures of the overkill on my project, too.
Someplaces there are seven or eight studs nailed together.
What the heck is the purpose of that?
Yeah, and I'd hate to be the one paying for that overkill in the framing......
Its funny though, as they strengthen the 2x4 structure in a lot of places, they weaken it in as many others, like using a spacer piece of plywood around the rim joists, and pulling full sheets off the center of the double rim joist. Sure, it saves plywood, a little, but there's nothing pulling the rim joist onto the house...
I just started framing a new house here in Oita. Not as much overkill, at all, but they were so cheap with their labour prices this time. It'll be the last one I do for this company.
S
What's the term, oh yeah "redneck engineering." That's what
it is.
6" pitch? unless I am misunderstanding you, why would a floor have a pitch?
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
The Japanese use the word "pitch" where you would say "on center."
It refers to spacing, not angle.