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I have been a carpenter for around 7 years & have now started my own company. I have done small jobs recently & have no problem doing on an hour rate. I now am beginning to get some bigger jobs & need help on bidding. I have seen some books on estimating (RS Means & Craftsman books are two examples) but this books are too much for what I’m doing. They seem to break down a job to much.
I do most work on old homes and some apartments so these books do not seem to take this avenue. I am looking for info on basic costs for say finishing an attic space to an open room. It’s time/ labor things is my down fall in estimating.
Any info would be of great help. Web sites, books, basic formulas for certain jobs etc.
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There is a long learning curve when it comes to estimating and it makes or breaks all of us who do this for a living. If there was an easy formula, I'd be using it, but as a guy told me a long time ago, "charge what the market will bear" HUUUh??
On smaller jobs I figure by the day, say I want to make three hundred dollars a day, I try to figure how many days the job will take and multiply it up. Then I figure in my materials CAREFULLY and give the homeowner the estimate.
Sometimes I figure everything tight to the wire and then multiply my labor cost x2. Works pretty good most of the time. This is what I do when (I'm) doing the whole job.
Subbing is another story. This is how I do contracting.
First you draw prints, give one to all
your subs and get their bids, suppliers included.
Add it up, figure for your own labor and add that in.
Figure in your overhead and profit ALWAYS.
Have a check list so you don't forget anything (if you want, I'll e-mail you one I use)
Figure it all up and throw in a couple hundred for unseen things (this varies according to job size)
On a house, I figure 12% for overhead and profit and take nothing for myself from the subs. The smaller the job, the larger the % for profit, but don't get greedy, try to be honest while not giving away the farm.
I never hire anyone and am a small-timer by choice. I sub or hire a laborer from the pool.(They pay their workers comp and stuff)
I once had a bunch of employees and the State drove me nuts. Employees open a can of worms I'd rather stay away from, bidding changes entirely when you have others on your payroll.
Working by the hour is not the thing to do unless you're working for someone else. Tell a homeowner you want 35 an hour and they will faint, end up making 75 an hour on a bid and it won't bother them because they know upfront the cost of the project.
It just takes a lot of time and headscratching. Good luck.
*Jay, look in the business section. I think this exact same question was asked in the last year more than once. There is a lot of info in there somewhere, you would be well repaid to spend the New Year weekend reading the lot of it.And there is no answer to "How much does it cost to remodel a basement", or "How much does it cost to paint a house?" == the answer is experience. It usually takes longer than you think it will and a LOT longer than the customer thinks it should cost. Joe H
*Jay,Jim has layed it out pretty darn good. I would have to agree with all that he said.Experience is the best teacher of estimating. Problem is that each job is a new experience. You'll figure it out.PetePS, look at the bright side, the more times you screw yourself, the faster you learn!
*You bet to the previous posts. Would add that by reading those books and applying pcs/parts of your own personal experience can come close to understanding the process of bidding. Make note of all that happens now so you will easily do it in the future. And never forget the logistical nightmares that await on a remodel. Setting up, securing the work area and clean up can quickly dbl. your labor costs. Best of luck.
*Amen to all that has already been said. also let me add that you should keep track of how long it takes to do things by how many hours per task and always include time for picking up materials etc. tasks you do on one job will always come up on another. good luckJim
*Pay attention to the PS Pete attached. Those are the words of a prophet.
*I don't know that I can add any more to this discussion; I do pretty much the same as everyone else, but I use Excel, figure out what to do, then tack on my percentages for profit, overhead, and contingency (which the customer get's back if unused), to the quote. However, the one thing that has helped me out is to look at the back-end; after the job is complete, looking at how the time was spent and what went right and wrong. I think they call this "lessons learned" in the corporate world. Usually I sit down with a sheet of paper and list out where I was way over or under. Doing this I'm always shocked to find what the real timewasters are; customer changes, running to the store, etc., etc. Learning from each job, I might suggest, and then applying it to the next, might be as important as being as good on the front end.
*> I have seen some books on estimating (RS Means & Craftsman books are two examples) but this books are too much for what I'm doing. They seem to break down a job to much.It isn't possible to break the job down too much. Actually, those books are a good start. A good bid is a lot of work, with or without the books. But if you have no prior experience bidding, I think they can be helpful. As soon as you have experience and have tracked your time, then you can adjust the rates. I just doubled my painting rates based on the last job. If I never paint again, that's fine with me, but if Ib dopaint again, at least it might actually be worth my time.Rich Beckman
*I agree w/ Mr. Beckman ... >>It isn't possible to break the job down too much. <<Beyond that - I have recently acquired the "BNi General Construction 2001 CostBook" - a worthy reference.Beyond that , all I can say is I like it so far.Geo.
*I learned the hard way that R.S. Means is only a guide. You can get in trouble with them if you adhere to them intirely.
*Good luck Jay. You are lucky to have found this site as you start your new endeavor. I probably would be a lot better off if I had this resource when I started 20 years ago.At that time, I also had 7 years of carpentry, mostly residential custom roughs. It qualified me as somewhat good at figuring my own labor on rough estimates. I didn't have a clue about anything else. I still don't. I remember figuring my first rough frame remodel (about 32 hours). I mentally calcualted every piece, step by step...literally. I hit the exact number of hours. I was proud.Recently I just offered a 4000 hour bid on a large custom house. I have no clue as to where that number came from. It's just a wild guess.I might not be so proud, if I get the job...Read the business section in here. There are some very excellent participants that offer real world experience, quite thoughtfully and gracioulsy. You have stumbled upon a really helpful resource that will surely give you some insight.Now, you need 7 years of contracting, bookkeeping, marketing, advertising, hiring....blue
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I have been a carpenter for around 7 years & have now started my own company. I have done small jobs recently & have no problem doing on an hour rate. I now am beginning to get some bigger jobs & need help on bidding. I have seen some books on estimating (RS Means & Craftsman books are two examples) but this books are too much for what I'm doing. They seem to break down a job to much.
I do most work on old homes and some apartments so these books do not seem to take this avenue. I am looking for info on basic costs for say finishing an attic space to an open room. It's time/ labor things is my down fall in estimating.
Any info would be of great help. Web sites, books, basic formulas for certain jobs etc.