OK maybe I’m evil. I know I’m not perfect by a long shot, and I have alot of faults, but I find myself in a moral dilemma…
I have worked in the steel industry for the past 10 years or so. I think I was good at what I did, and so did my bosses. Now I work as a slug in a hardware store. The income and the bills are far apart, and the bank has been calling lately wondering when they’ll see my next car payment. Times are tough.
I made the switch from machining to the Hardware store in order to meet figures in the building industry and get to know products and procedures from some folks who do what you do for a living. In the fall I am going back to college in Architectural engineering technology (building Science). But meanwhile my family is eating poorly, we have no health or dental benefits, and things arent looking good. Its a tough haul right now.
Last Thursday I got a call from a large company in town (TigerCat Industries). Aparently I had served one of their execs in the Hardware store (without knowing who he was) and he had recognized me from other places I’ve worked. I went in and had a nice chat with them. They offered me the works. Full benefits, good position, excellent pay, vacation time, etc, etc. It was an overall good visit.
While I was there, I lloked around the office, and the fellow had a picture of what I assume was his family. At least there were the tops of a couple heads in the picture. Over the family picture, taking up most of the frame space was an aerial picture of the factory. That resounded poorly with me. Office people surround themselves with the things that matter most to them. The picture was very dusty and looked as though it hadn’t been touched for some time.
On the way out I grabbed a copy of their company magazine which quoted specs for their equipment, and told some of their success stories. They make “Forest management and forestry equipment” The magazine boasted the efficiency of their machines in stripping forests in terms of so many acres per day, it told of how they had strong armed eco-ethics counsels, and environmental lobbies to win permission to cut forests. The company sounds to me like it serves a single focus – lining its own pockets at the expence of our children’s environment.
I am a wilderness canoeist, and I have seen clearcuts and forest destruction. I have seen “Farmed forests” first hand, and I have a really hard time with the thought of being part of something I dissagree with, but its tough to see my family do without knowing that I could be supporting them so much better.
I haven’t called back about the job. I don’t think I will, but I wonder what kind of a take you folks have on it when you get a job offer that goes directly against you belief system.
View Image | And When I must Leave the Great River, Oh Bury Me Close to its wave, Zone 5b Brantford Ontario, Canada |
Replies
Timber harvesting is necessary. The problem with the present forest harvesting system is not the harvesting but the methods used. It will be done with or without your help.
One of the problems with the industry is that they have difficulty, as does the other side, seeing its opposition as human and acting in good conscience. A canoeist in the operation could, if not overplayed, have some small influence on the perspective of environmentalists if not the operating methods. You could make lots of noise on the outside and have much less effect.
Go for it. You and your family will be much happier. Only one proviso. If you work for these people you will be immersed in their world view and perspective. It will take considerable personal integrity and strength not to fall into lock step.
Does this mean you're thinking about taking this job instead of going back to school in the fall ? I think you've already decided you aren't going to like them that well (PS I take it this is the old MacDonald plant in Paris ?)
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Two thoughts came to mind almost simultaneously, a bad situation for me, with limited brain cells to donate to your problems.
1. Morals, and feeling good about yourself will outlast many jobs and much money.
2. Maybe instead of corrupting you, you can figure a way to improve the company focus, greener logging. I have heard it said that you eliminate your enemy, when you make them your freind.
Maybe the right answer is a different job, at another place yet to be discovered. Hang in, it will get better, sooner or later
Dan
When you decided to have a family, you took on the responsibility to provide for them, when you signed the loan papers you put you word on the line to pay your debts. I don't think we are talking morals and ethics here. Put yourself and your views backseat for awhile and be a man, and do what you have to do. Sorry it couldn't be more warm and fuzzy like the rest of the advice, but being a man sometimes requires tough decisions, that put others welfare before ones own happiness.
Imagine the uneasy feeling you put others in when you left a good job to pursue your own happiness...........that is something I feel you should have to do "on your own time" not at the expense of others that count on you.
You can justify it by saying in the long run it would benefit them more.....but maybe it wouldn't. Unless your crystal ball is much more clear than mine, a bird in the hand is a very good proverb.
Can you tell I'm holding my tongue here?????? I am.
I don't think I will, but I wonder what kind of a take you folks have on it when you get a job offer that goes directly against you belief system.
What's more important to you? Your family's well being or your belief system?......it's not about YOU......it's about THEM. Do you want to make a change for them or continue to piss and moan about "tough times".......that you created for yourself by the way........now you're going to school? Can you go to school and still be a father to your children?...or just a shadow passing by their door each nite on the way to your bed.....
You gave up the right to being a free spirit when you took on the obligations of raising children. IMO. Lifes a bitch sometimes and it calls for sacrifice......
.I always hated tearing up perfectly good farm land and setting up Ken and Barbieville, as a lot of us do, but ...........the trees go down regardless.
I agree that your family must come first. That's a moral. And even though you might disagree with the uses of the equipment at this business, your only terms of influence really are working there, understanding the system, and potentially improving it. If you pass on it...then you've already given up. They'll continue to make and sell this stuff, and use it however they see fit.
Thanks for the reality checks guys.
Yes I am still planning on school in the fall, thats one of the other things that falls into play here. They don't know that, and if I stayed on with them I couldnt go and I'd be trapped back in the steel industry. Steel is not where I want to spend the rest of my life.
I knew even as I posted the subject last night that it would spark some strong feelings. Also My goal is NOT to stir up the whole ecology thing so much as to ask how much your decisions are controlled by personal beliefs and which ones are strongest. I like the notion of being on the inside making change rather than screaming outside locked doors. (I am not an activist)
And no Phil, its not the Paris Plant, its the Brantford sub-assy. plant (Morton Ave).
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And When I must Leave the Great River, Oh Bury Me Close to its wave,And Let My Canoe and My Paddle, Be the only Mark over my Grave
Zone 5b Brantford Ontario, Canada
Working at the hardware store is driving you nuts and deeper in the hole. New job, making machines to cut down trees but will get you out of the hole. Five year goal with the new job. Cut down trees and get into a position to educate customers to better use the trees they cut down and to follow with replanting the same type of trees cut. If after three months at the tree cutting co you find they are totally set in their ways they go back to school. Morals are fine if you can make a change to improve things for all.
First thing I would do is sell the canoe , and get a better job , then look for a better job . A mothers job is never done. A fathers job is heavy with responsibility every single day.
Tim Mooney
Take care of your family how you see fit, but take care of it. Dont sell that canoe, teaching your children the wonder and importance of nature can only be done first hand and MUST be done. I think that is even more important than a lot of book learning. I have NEVER used most of my chemestry class( what the heck good is Storkeometry anyway?) from High school but skills I learned in nature with my uncle have been used in some way daily for over 20yrs. My way to teach about nature is a backpack and good boots, yours sounds like a canoe. Now if you are starving w/o heat, maybe I think of selling it (maybe pawn it?), but it dont sound that way. I agree with the other posts though, get a better feel of the company before nixing the job. School is fine but not at the expense of a good job. I have yet to feel that my Bachelors degree did me one bit of good other than to rob me of two years I could have been working and earning retirement. Unless they have some wacked out contract, you can always get another job. Look into Govt assistance for both living, school and work. I'm not saying abuse the system, but it can help you in lean times or w/grants, low int. loans etc. Good luck, take care of that family. Thats just my opinion, but what do I know, I m just a simple man.
I have seen the elephant.
Don't do it. Follow your heart. No way you'll ever be able to give yourself fully to work that opposes your beliefs, and without giving yourself over to your profession, you'll never be fulfilled by it. That lack of fulfillment will have a far greater cost to you and your family than a few dollars can compensate you for.
But you already know that, we all do.
Jag,
You must first of all what ever do , do it with a clear concious. Next you must remember that in buiding science the materials in building wood , tar other oil based products ect come and are develope from processes that are adverse to the environment. I would say that if you come to grips with that and realize that as long as what you do is leagal and it does not affect you morally then take the job. Hey you'll never know until you try it. But your morals are what makes you as a human being. Your values are what you pass on to your kids. but again I say give it a shot and see exactly what the company is all about. In the laws of corporate politics the guy probably has the pic of the company there for political reasons. To loom like a good company man for his bosses. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Lots of good replies already. Just some random thoughts to add...
Modern logging equipment does a better job of protecting the ecology of an area (if used right of course). It seems that developing new equipment and getting logging companies to use it (vs ther outdated stuff), could have a beneficial effect.
I'm only a couple years into this fatherhood thing, but one thing is crystal clear to me. I see happy families that are poor, and unhappy families that are rich (and visa versa of course). If you have food and shelter, just worry about developing your childrens character and education. You don't need lots of money to do this.
The exception to the above is health and life insurance. If you or they get sick, have the means to address it. People go into debt for life when they have big healthcare bills to pay without the benefit of insurance. If you die, have the life insurance to cover their future. If this means taking the job for 6 months before school, maybe that's worth it.
Ever think about doing canoe trip guiding on the side? There's some Licensing and training involved, but a) you get into the woods more...and get paid for it. b) if your kids are old enough you can bring them along as helpers; and get to spend more time with them to boot. c)share your knowlege of nature with the clientel, thereby having some kind of impact on their view of wilderness' importance.
Morton ? Is that near the old Koehring-Waterous foundary site ? Anyhow, sorry, I thought those guys were out in Paris..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Edited 6/26/2002 1:46:19 PM ET by Phill Giles
No way would I ever take a job that went against your belief system. It just isn't worth it to compromise your morals for a job.
On the other hand - Does this company really compromise your principles? Just because they make logging equipment doesn't mean that all of it will be used irresponsibly. What could you possibly manufacture that couldn't be misused? Couldn't someone buy an axe from the hardware store and become an axe murderer? Or could someone buy fertilizer or herbicides for their yards and put it on at 5 times the label rate?
The picture you mentioned - The one of the factory. If you had spent years and years building up a business, wouldn't you be proud of it? I'm not sure I understand why that bothered you.
You also brought up clear cutting and "farmed forests". Are those 2 things wrong in ALL situations? Or are there situations where they're acceptable?
I don't intend to tell you what to do, but it seems to me you've read an awful lot into this company based on your own beliefs. How much does this company actually go against your principals?
Bumpersticker: My child was inmate of the month at the county jail
JAG,
Did you voluntarily leave your last job? If so did you do any simple budget review of your family costs and what you would be making?
I recently took a cut in pay to change jobs (for many reasons) but I discussed this with my family and what it would mean in terms of demands on my time and the consequences to the budget.
If you really haven't thought these things out (like how are you going to manage to take care of you family while you go to school and work part time?) start NOW. Work out the details for yourself and your family BEFORE you make any more decisions.
As far as beliefs and jobs go, the issue is personal. YOU know what is right for YOU.
Good luck.
Actually Tim, we did discuss things and have worked out a budget, but there are always unforeseens. My ex has been quite faitful in paying child support fo rthe past year or so, and since I have decided on change, she seems to have decided to be late and irregular in her payments. Of course I am the one who chose to stay with my daughter, while she chose to move on. It brought me a smile reading in this thread when someone mentioned that when I made the decision to have children I took on the obligations to support and care for them. On these boards its impossible to know everything. (I am remarried, but my wife cannot work here since she doesn't have an immigration status - and that would cost us a pile of cash).
It was my choice to leave my last job, and I don't regret having left it at all. And the hardware business is not driving me crazy at all, on the contrary I really enjoy it, except for the odd day when people are just being stoopid. Its a great environment to learn and try new things. I love it.
The money thing is not a huge issue. I have applied for a few grants and loans and am just awaiting word on them. Actually I go in today to sort out abunch of crap related to school money. I don't mean to bitch and moan about cash, sorry if I come across that way.
JAG
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And When I must Leave the Great River, Oh Bury Me Close to its wave,And Let My Canoe and My Paddle, Be the only Mark over my Grave
Zone 5b Brantford Ontario, Canada
You've posed a heady question and got some thoughtful replies.
Another angle is to think ten or twenty years into the future. Will you regret not having gone to school? Will you regret having taken a corporate job? You don't want to end up living with regrets of things undone. For example, last year we packed up and moved to Spain for the year. Couldn't afford it, cashed in all the savings, struggling to pay up now. but boy did we have an awakening time. Kid grew ina way that little old middle class Victoria could never allow. We learned a new language and culture, blah, blah,blah. The point is, once we got it in our heads that we could do it, we would have been heavy with regret for not doing it..
If you are in an unhappy job situation, no matter what the material benefits, it rubs off on your family. I think they will stand behind you. It will all work out.
By the way, where do you paddle? I lived near Lake Nipigon for a few years and covered that area pretty good, also Missinabi and White. Spent a week on the Madawaska, too.
Glad to hear you went into this with a plan. Not all do. Unforeseens are, well, unforeseen. The rest is personal. As you know (and many will remind you) all choices have consequences.
I now make 75% of what I did 2 years ago and probably 50% of what I would make if I had stayed where I was. But I haven't worked a 100 week in two years. My dogs don't bark at me when I come home because they actually recognize me now. My canoe hasn't seen the outside of the garage in a while, but that'ts the way it goes. Good luck, and stick to it.
TLR
If you are not happy with your job and place in life all those around you will sense that and in some way suffer. I can relate to your delemma about the bills and no insurance for your family. Its a tough choice, if it were me I would seek employment in an area where my basic values in life are not compromised. I rather doubt your eco logging stance would be favorably accepted by your co-workers in the job you mentioned. Been there done that. I sell lumber and deal with mill employees and loggers on a regular basis, I have learned to keep my views to myself when I deal with these people. but then I don't see them every day either.
Good luck with your choice
JAG
Taking the job does not compromise your beliefs, maybe the people that use the equipment in the wrong way is something that you feel strongly opposed to but the equipment that you produce has nothing to do with it. Kind of like the gun thing, guns don't kill people, people kill people, I think someone else eluded to this already though.
I work for a very strong minded, dyed in the wool republican, very much opposite of what I believe but I'm not going to quit my job because of it, now if he was asking me to do something ilegal or imoral than that would be different.
The toughest job you will ever have is being a parent, everything else is a distant second.
Do what you need to but I don't think that I would scratch the idea completely, give it some thought, I think you are doing that though.
School will always be there, regardless of age, someone said don't do it because you will regret it down the road, there isn't a man/woman that does not regret something they did or do, if they say they have no regrets they are lying. I have regrets but I don't dwell on them that much, mainly because I cant do sh## about them.
Good luck with your decision
Doug
Just a guy......try becomming just a MAN! Grow up and feed the family. Some people get to do work they like, some don't. The work is secondary to providing for the family....that's the real job.
Follow a dream, chase a rainbow, save a tree.....My dad woulda kicked my #### if I tried to use those excuses to avoid doing the very best I could to provide for my family!
And sell the canoe till you can afford a decent meal and a hobby. Work to make it happen....doesn't sound like it's far off. This evil company may even have a program to pay for your schooling.......
But all of this....even the money....is secondary to the fact you are thinking about giving up a chance for health insurance for your family! What the hell kinda thinkiing is that?
Guess you could always just follow the dream, save a tree, keep the canoe...and let the government provide......Jeff She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!
I think you guys are forgetting that I'm in Canada, where a health plan basically just means that prescription drugs are paid for - everything else is already covered...
JAG
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And When I must Leave the Great River, Oh Bury Me Close to its wave,And Let My Canoe and My Paddle, Be the only Mark over my Grave
Zone 5b Brantford Ontario, Canada
then I can see the reluctance to make more cash...as the gov would probably just take the difference! Jeff She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!
1. You're married.
2. Your wife can't work.
3. You have a child so you can't afford to be a free spirit.
4. Your alimony is sporadic - so you can't count on that.
5. Your current income is inadequate
6. You're Canadian so you don't have to come up with 10 grand a year for health insurance like I do for just me and the wife.
7. Your current income is still inadequate.
8. You're planning on going back to school which demands an extreme commitment in time and money
9. Your current income is still inadequate - what are you thinking - does the job at the hardware store have educational benefits too?
10. You're waiting to hear back about grants and/or loans for school - How long have you been waiting? Can you keep your job at the hardware store while going to school? Most schools require class attendance during the day. Is the hardware store open at night so you can earn your INADEQUATE pittance?
11. One of your stated reasons for leaving your previous job for the current one at the hardware store was the exposure to different folks. Well, you got that exposure and it paid off with a job offer. Apparently a good job offer with ADEQUATE pay and extras.
I'd say you don't have the luxury of a bank account that can support both your family's basic needs now and in the immediate future as well as your pie-in-the-sky beliefs and wishful thinkings. The Sierra Club will NOT be sending you a weekly allotment to fight the good fight.
Support your family first and then, if you must, network yourself into a job or position more to your liking. Go to night school. You can even enroll in a decent school and complete the coursework on-line and via e-mail.
Being a man means more than getting the most you can on the table at that instant. It also means demonstrating what you believe in and planning for the future. I've known people who have worked at jobs they didn't like in order to provide for their family, and they've found it rewarding to be the provider for their family. I've also known people who've chucked the security of a job they had, but hated, to return to college in hopes of a better career, and they found a way to work it out. I've also known people who took each path and later wished they hadn't. I also know a guy who took a short-term job at a place he didn't care for when he was a dissertation shy of a doctorate, and 12 years later he's a manager there and still shy of a PhD but happily taking care of his family with his new, heady economic status. Either path can branch in so many directions.
Depends on your makeup and your family's support. What's your wife think? Is she willing to cooperate and live on the budget of a full-time student with loans and such? Is your daughter old enough to care one way or the other, so long as she's warm in winter and loved all year round? Are you so destitute that selling the canoe would make a difference be/t eating or starving, sleeping on a bed or the street, or can you keep it and use it on cheap family canoing/camping excursions rather than paying for a vacation?
Don't just take the route of what will put the most in the bank acct at this one instant in time, unless that's as far as your goals extend. Don't be short-sighted. You've already shown you aren't a slacker, and you take responsibility for your family, and you aren't going to let anyone starve, so don't do something you abhor just so someone will think "you're a man". Be clear on what kind of life you and your family want over the long haul and follow a path that gets you there. Whichever path you take...if you aren't committed to it...if your heart's not into it....that unhappiness will spread to your family and become part of their unhappiness. Think they won't know if dad is satisfied with his life choices or not? Think that's not also a lesson a man can impart to his family?