Keep me from burning down a Lowe’s store
leftisright
| Posted in General Discussion on
Electrical advice needed…..
The company that I work for (I install retail display lighting fixtures at one of the big boxes) has started a new “safety” measure. They are wanting all wire nutted connections to be secured with electrical tape. I think the that this is a waste fo of time as a properly installed wire not isn’t going anywhere. The service electricians I know (these are the guys that fix stuff that the sotres really mess up) say that they would much rather not see wire nuts taped on as it makes repair work a pain in the heinie. Also is there any need to wire nut ground wires together, I just strip and twist, there ain’t gonna be no short if that wire touches anything.
Just wondering
Replies
Seems to me ya do what they pay ya to do..what else is there? Kick and scream or walk away with no $$$.?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "
Me.
No, I'm subversive, my work is hidden and unsigned. you ever tried to get electrical tape off of a wire nut after it's been on there for five years. Don't even bother trying anymore just cut the nuts and restrip the wire.
I'm just wondering if there is some "code" reason for ths or as always some guy in the office got the contract to supply the tape. Bad part is they don't pay for the tape anymore and I'm at the mercy of whatever wire nuts come with the new fixtures, usally way undersized.
so the real problem is .... undersized nuts.... hmmm
p
Seriously, the light come pacled with those little old blue wire nut you use for 20 gauge speaker wire. how the hell are you suppsoed to get two 12g wire in that little old nut?
Guy I learned electrical from, twisted, nutted and taped. I skip all that stuff now that I'm into production, one bend and shove it back in the box... repairs are a piece of cake If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
We tape them. We also wrap a wrap or two around receptacles. No code, just caution. We do residential and I just think it is a cheap safety method in case a guy got in a hurry or something.
If we were all concerned with future maintenance then that extra few nails wouldn't get driven, we wouldn't use slicone on drain baskets and sink installs etc. I could go on and on about the amount of things done "just to be sure" that make future maintenance a pain.
So I am your boss I guess, making my guys do something they think is redundent. That is the joy of owning the company I guess, do it my way or leave. DanT
I second what you've said, on any job under my watch the elec. wrap everything.
I wrap the outlets: in metal boxes
double or triple boexs
if I gotta fug with it later...as for wire nuts: if they are stripped the right amount
and twisted together well
and theres not a chance that a ground could get poked in therethen no tape but all those things rarely happen.but I do agree with the PITA of having to rework when they are well taped with good tape.How about we just use Walmart cheapo 25 rolls for $3.99 tape??it will stay stuck till just after the inspection....
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
Nothing wrong with bumping up quality, but I agree w/ the guy that says tape won't help or fix an improper connection in the first place, so adding it provides no higher quality and as pointed out ... actually hinders the on-going maintenance/changes that the wire nut is there to provide. You could say soldering provides the best connection ... but I understand that isn't allowed by code. ...
And we don't put silicone on strainer baskets ... that's just stupid and unecessary. Lots of these technologies have been out there for decades ... and for a reason ... why change it. If you can't do the job w/ proven technology, you don't belong in the job.
My advice, just tape em, even if ya know it's retarded. Cuz thats nowhere as stupid as some things they make ya do in the big ole corporate world.
LIR,
I have been forced to tape on a couple jobs.
Here's my take,,,, if the connection is properly done,,, no need for tape.
If it's not properly done, the tape won't help.
The tape will, however, prevent a proper inspection of the installation.
Harry
Sounds to me like you are doing your employer a diservice. Usually the supplied wire nuts are garbage, don't use them. You MUST wire nut the grounds according to the NEC (or provide some other sort of mechanical connection). I am gonna stay nuetral on the taping.
It also sounds like your employer is doing you a diservice. Whats the deal about no supplies? Hell, your are working in a friggin hardware store for kristsakes. Are you supervised by lincensed electrican? What's his/her take on this screwed up situation.
Opps I forgot this is all happening in a lowes.
No code reason that I'm aware of to tape your wire nuts. I used to apply tape sometimes if I was making up connections in a vibrating box on a machine [as on a motor], but generally the need to apply a "diaper" indicates the wrong wire nut or overly aggressive wire stripping.
You do need to secure your ground connections with a UL approved type of pressure connection[ wire nut is an example]. If one of the other wires comes loose you then really, really need a good ground connection.
Chuck
Did the code every allow just twisting the ground together.I see that alot in this area where they just have about 2 of grounds twisted together, apparently by hand. The twist are fairly low, but still tight enough that they won't accidently come apart..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Oh yeah, I forgot a lot of the fixtures I take down have the ground wires cut completely off. How safe is that?
Really grounds on lighting fixtures really don't do that much.In realy life when you are changing a bulb it would be very rare when there is anything around that is ground so that you might be shocked if you touched that ground and the fixture had a fault that made it hot.Probably the only place that they migh do any good is for someone changing bulbs in the a lighting display where you are immediately around all of the other fixtures and the metal supports..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
In realy life when you are changing a bulb it would be very rare when there is anything around that is ground so that you might be shocked if you touched that ground and the fixture had a fault that made it hot.
Much more common than you might think. HO is standing on a metal stool, changing the light bulb. They get nervous, get a little off balance, want to grab something to steady themself, nothing to grab but the metal light fixture.
Yes, but that is that metal stool sitting on. Most likely carpet, wood, or tile..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yes, but that is that metal stool sitting on. Most likely carpet, wood, or tile.
If it's in the kitchen, and the tile floor is damp...
Or the bathroom.
We are also assuming the metal fixture is properly grounded, which it may not be, in reality.
Of the tingles I've received over the years, a surprising number were under conditions that would make you think getting a shock was not possible. For example, while wearing insulated boots on a fiberglass ladder.
It doesn't take much; your surprise reaction can be enough to inspire a painful fall. Leave the theory to the academics. Don't work hot unless absolutely necessary - and still protect yourself in multiple ways.
It doesn't take much; your surprise reaction can be enough to inspire a painful fall.
I was putting up some can lights in a store in a big mall, the back wall of the store was all mirrors, in the mirror I saw a pigeon fly in the front of the store aiming straight for my head. Everyone knows images are reversed in a mirror, but not when a pigeon is narrowly going to miss your head, so I deaked left, .. right smack into the pigeon ...
Iknow the NEC used to allow the grounds to just be twisted. I am thinking the code changed maybe 15 or 20 years ago.
I am getting old
tape & nuts are good on that sort of stuff .. you know, multistranded wires to a solid supply ..
Do me a favor.
Go work for a company doing HD's displays. They could stand burning down. Specially the Independence store.
The code basically required that approved fastenrs be used.
And I don't know of any UL listings for wire nuts that require tape.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Well......supposedly the Big Orange boys are doing thier own fixture installations these days...don't know because I haven't serviced their stores for several years.
Can't say that the store in Indy is any better than any of the others, never been there but if they're like the boys at Lowe's in Indy they think they're great becasue they sell a lot.
Most of the stores I service at Lowe's don't even let their employees touch the displays anymore because when they aren't care when removing them they trip the breakers. M ost of the newer stores haves something called a superbreaker located in the ceiling that has to be reset. Takes an stockpicker (kinda like a forklift) and a long pole to do it. Sometimes have to wait a month for them to get around to resetting the breaker.
I always use a fitting that fits in my screw gun designed to handle wire nuts [avail. at any elec. supply]. I twist till the wires are twisted so I know it hasn't slippe or stripped.
Sounds like a liability thing, and if a store burned that you worked on, and there was no tape on those nuts, i'm sure they'd put tape around your nuts.
They just want to be able to see the same thing in everyone of their boxes. Right or wrong, its consistent.
If you are working around those big box stores, you should know that the turnover rate for the average employee is high.
I've seen those employee's attitude and actions, and unless a supervisor stays on their tail, they are there to draw a paycheck with or without quality work. I had to go to one supervisor when I witnessed two young workers standing around with their backs to the loading area as one customer was trying to load plywood sheets by himself and another was in a wheelchair trying to get help to load sacks of Portland cement....
Getting those employees up on those overhead shelving lifts, no telling what they will do or knock loose. Do what the bosses ask of you and help save a low productive morons' job...otherwise they will be serving your food at one of the fast-food places.... ;>)
Bill
Turnover is high, but some of the cashiers are cute and electrical is usually close to the front of the store.
I do what i can but some are hopeless....
If your title is accurate and you are working only in Lowes stores it may not be you companies choice. The big boxes have their own rules about what they want based on their own judgment/experience (or lack of ) what makes them more liability free.
Ask your boss if one if he puts on a condom does he wrap electrical tape around it for "safety measures"????
Actually he's so fat I doubt he could find his weinie to put on a condom much less tape it.
Putting tape around wire nuts is not a requirement of the code, but doing so causes no harm. There might be some value to it when using stranded wire, as it's pretty easy for a single strand to stick out - and that little strand will zap you just as well as a big wire.
Simply twisting ground wires together is, IMO, not enough. A regular wire nut is just fine. Safety issues aside, many of the new electronic ballasts require a good ground to operate.
The latest edition of the NEC also requires that each fixture have a 'disconnecting means' for servicing. In practice, this means a little plug / socket connector assembly has been added inside the fixture. these connectors have you simply push the wires in, as with the Wago and Ideal "In-sure" connectors.
Indeed, for your purposes, the In-Sure connectors are probably a better choice than wire-nuts.
I've built Lowes stores. The circuits are pretty well identified - both at the panel, and at each junction box. Please don't work hot. As it is, it seems your employer has failed to give you much training.
We don't work hot. All fixtures are built on what's called a hanger bar and there is a cord wired into the hanger bars. The hanger bar is put in a track and then the cord is plugged into an outlet inside of the track. Usually there are no problems except when store employees remove the display and just yank them loose instead of unplugging them.
Guess the consensus is to go ahead and tape the nuts and make sure that the grounds are wire nutted to ensure a good ground.
I'm not sure about how well the circuits are identified. If a breaker is tripped most stores don't have a clue as to where the breaker is or if it is a superbreaker in the ceiling.
I just tell 'em to reset and wait until the district manager complains about a bank of lights being out. that usually morivates them to fix it.
The other day I was in Lowes and the power was out all over town, cashier said she thought they were on generator. I cannot believe there was not some serious loadshedding. All the display lighting was still fired up. Must be one kick**** generator setup.
They all do have backup generator, huge old engine out back think it might be a diesel. Generally not all of the store will be running, usually lighting displays are out and there is no power to the bulk wire rack.
Kind of funny because last year the store in St. Joseph Missouri was on the generator for a week. They sold an entire tracotr trailer load of generator, its was 280 I think in an hour. Well, when you buy a generator you need the cord set. Those sold out in five minutes. So people wanted to make their own cord sets and the bulk cord was on top of the wire rack and there waspower to the rack so they had to send someone up on a forklift to cut the pieces. When the cord ran people started buying 12g romex to hook that puppy up. I finished up and got the heck out of town before somebody hurt themselves.
I worked for Lowe's many moons ago. They mostly had HUGE Kohler gennies sitting on top of 1,000 gallon tanks. Some stores cut loads to the fan/light cloud and some of the store lighting, others run full boat with no problem.