Has anyone ever had someone on there crew that …..well simply put, just shouldn’t be there?
few years ago, kid shows up (19) has his new tool belt still in the plastic bag from the store he bought it at. Oh boy, here we go I recall thinking. My boss at the time gets him started pulling off braces from the main floor wall framing…. and he’s on is way to in the marvelous world of new home construction…..or so we (my boss) had hoped.
Fortunately for me, I was now running smaller jobs on a frequent basis and although our crew of 8 could keep busy on most of the large houses, it was I that usually had ( I’ll call him) Bob as one of my crew when we split up.
1st off, the kid stayed with us ( and wasn’t fired) for over a year. I think when he thought he deserved a raise, that was the beginning of the end. Bob was a fun guy to have around, very personable and was always 1st on the crew to know the names of the HO and get on a 1st name basis with them. he liked his work and tried hard and had a good attitude….these were the sole reasons he stayed with us as long as he did.
poor kid did not have clue. I swear sometimes none of us could figure out where his head was at. you could explain something in depth and hope that he would remember half of it. nope to much too remember. you explain things simply, so as not to overload him. yet that was still to much too handle.
some examples:
when doing form work, after erecting one side of the formwork. he was given the task to place the form ties in the slots. he started where he was told, then moved to another section, suddenly we noticed that he had about 100 ties in the wrong side of the wall!
my boss told him to fix it, they were on the wrong side. then I caught him doing it again. so I said listen…look at the footing you can tell where the concrete is going to end up, make sure the ties go on that side. OK problem solved he’s got it now, can’t be anymore straight forward than that……
month later I’m on a job doing another form with Joe and Bob. to my astonishment he’s got 50 ties on the wrong side again…I’m like dude! what are you doing?! ok….he just slipped wasn’t paying attention, thinking about girls or whatever. That will be the last time.
nope. couple months later on another form Joe and I were working in a section together, when suddenly Joe burst out howling. I’m like what are you laughing at. he points across the other side where Bob is working and sure enough he’s plugging merrily along sticking ties in the wrong side again. we just stood and watched for a minute….Joe trying not to laugh too hard. Finally I could bare it no longer, I called to Bob, he look and saw Joe laughing. I didn’t say a thing. after a good pause he looked at what he was doing and clued in.
I could probably write a book on Bob and his misfortunes with us, but this post is already getting to be longer than I planned. so just couple more quick examples.
He never could learn to tell when his gun was out of nails. I would go along after him and find stuff with no nails in it, only a dimple. I’d be like great now I have to check over every thing he’s worked on for the past four hours! I’d showed up on site one day, coming from another site and noticed this. I asked my boss have you seen what’s going on upstairs? have you checked his work? he was like no I had faith that is was ok. faith alone is not enough I said. You gotta check his work.
I’m a pretty patient guy, I think the only time I really felt mad at him was when I was under pressure to get a job done, I had to get him to do something that required some explanation. So I was very carefully to explain in a way I thought he could follow. and then his final instructions were not to nail something to a specific section. those were my final words to him. I start to leave, but then turn around and to my shock find him doing the exact thing I had told him not to do in my parting words!
I went to the main house where my boss was working and asked what Joe was working on. he was working on blocking. I asked for a trade, and got one.
eventually I ended up having a heart to heart with Bob. one day when he was telling me about a job up north he heard about where he could get paid $40 an hour for framing. I said listen do you really thing you are a $40 a hour guy? maybe someday…..but to be honest with you I think you should get into something that more utilizes you personality. We had an number of talks Bob and I. He is a good kid. I’m not sure where he is now. last I heard he called up Joe and said he had a lead on a job, but the guy would only take him if he could get another guy to come with him. ( a buddy of Bob was already working with this guy.) Joe declined.
where ever you are Bob… God bless you, I hope you have a salesman job. If you knock on my door I’ll probably buy some of whatever it is.
Edited 4/21/2006 2:18 am ET by alrightythen
Replies
I have a guy on my framing crew that has been with us for almost three years and still really doesn't get "it". It has been a long slow process with this guy. He's a good guy and works hard but you have to check everything he does.
Finally I came up with the idea you screw it up you get to fix it. Missing nails in sheeting 3 stories in the air and now you have to get the 40 ft. extension ladder out to fix it. This approach has paid off. Everyday he gets a little better now.
I recently hired a new guy and this guy worked for a huge outfit out of Ionia Michigan. I have to really watch this one in the past few days I've made him tear out and move joist hangers, take sheeting off walls and replace it. He'll work out just fine, he's not used to doing things our way.
We had a kid a few years ago. Wife nephew. Got in some trouble, court case pending and no one would hire him. We hired him as a helper and like you hoped he would bloom.
Quiet personality, somewhat backward in his view of the world but worked at whatever we gave him. Same as Bob. Couldn't remember anything you told him yesterday. Today we are stuffing insulation in stud cavities. Here is how you do it. Next day....ok finish the insulation on that little area and we will start hanging rock. "which side is in, paper or insulation?" Umm.....look at the rest of it from yesterday......oh.
And like you it simply never got better. 5 months later we let him go. We slowed down a little so it worked out as though it was a lay off. He was a great clean up guy and he could really wash and wax the trucks. But that was about it. DanT
In my younger days, I would have kept a guy like that and tried to help him learn the trade. Of course my frustration level would rise on adaily basis.
Later on, I realized that I wasn't doing anyone a favor. These kids have skills that belong someplace else. Nowasays, I'd probably release him on his first day, if not, sooner.
blue
The last contractor I worked for had a nephew that would join us over the summer when school was out. The kid was useless.
I swear he worked harder at finding ways to avoid actually working.
Kid couldn't get a coffee order right for a four man crew.
Last I'd heard he was attending some type of graphic arts school.
If he applies the imagination he used in finding ways to avoid working to a career in the arts, he'll likely be very successful.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Presuming he wasn't a stoner, welcome to the world of adult ADD. Sounds like an extreme case. You were awful nice for a very long time about his problem.
lol..stoner you might think. But he was a good Christian kid. His brain just could not seem to grasp the concept of "logic". and a great deal of what makes one a good carpenter is having a logical sense of what needs to happen, and then being able to carry it out.
Joe would joke about how the Kid idolized me. I guess because I was the only one on the crew who had patience for him, that and the fact that I stuck up for him when our "old timer" rode him hard for irrelvent stuff.
I had a 'friend' of a 'friend' who switched occupations like I do my socks, not always daily, but close.
He was a stoner, down on his luck perpetually, and just was spinning his wheels where ever he landed. I felt sorry for him. He did have SOME exp. in the trades, but all either bad info given to him or he just was so ADD that it didn't stick.
I had just gotton a very big remodel gig and really needed a helper..well, I gave the guy a shot. It was horrendous. I could write a book, he lasted 2 months before I hadda coach him away and talk him into looking somewhere else to be.
I got a call from a local glass shop asking for a reference...I thought Oh Crap, what do I say? I went for honesty with out squashing the guys chance totally...they hired him.
2 days later, they call me. Asked if I knew the guy or just made him sound OK. They said he spent 30 minutes complaining about thier tools..seems he was trying to drill an alum frame with the bit chucked up with the flutes in the chuck.
I learned a lesson. Next call from a auto repair shop asking for a ref. I told the un varnished truth about him, they thanked me and did not hire him. He calls me up and tells me what a MF'er I am for bad mouthing him..never heard from him since.
BTW his Initials are GR and in the western NC, upstate SC area, about 50, wirey, and useless.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You gotta be kidding me ..Jorge is @ what %? Now?
If someone called me for a referral, without the applicant having asked me for permission, I'd say to the caller, "They never asked me to be a reference for them," and that would be the end of the call. I wouldn't bad-mouth someone--as an employer, I was advised to not do that for legal reasons--but I think declining to give a referral would be just as effective.
good point. I didn't bad mouth as much as say he never met my expectations. And he did ask me about the glass shoppe, but not the auto place.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You gotta be kidding me ..Jorge is @ what %? Now?
"he was trying to drill an alum frame with the bit chucked up with the flutes in the chuck"My God. When people tell stories about the stupid helpers they find, it honestly just makes me sad. I mean, imagine being that stupid. Are these people huffing paint fumes out of a paper bag during lunch or what.
Ignorant and inexperienced is one thing. Stupid lasts forever somehow. My first job as a laborer was on a government site. I was making big bucks just sweeping and taking out trash. Although I did have a mechanical background and knew how things were built, I was the rookie and got all of the ridicule and abuse. I listened intently and was always eager to see what was going on. I used to study the blueprints during breaks and at lunch time for my own amusement.I was given the opportunity to work overtime on a Saturday doing nothing but screwing off drywall and I took it! My boss spent five minutes telling me how it had to be done and how he wanted every screw to be exactly the same as the first row he had just shown me. Well, I did what I was told and upon arriving at work Monday I found the entire crew outside laughing (at me). In order to satisfy the requests of my boss I had found it necessary to measure and snap chalklines on every stud vertically and every 8" horizontally.....on 400 sheets of drywall. I did what I was told and there was a buglehead screw in every intersection of a chalklined grid within 1/64th of an inch. The painter wanted to kill me and my boss told me I took him to literally but he laughed at my trying to please him.I don't use chaklines anymore, I use a very light pencil now. ;-)
14,400 screws huh? On a Saturday. Yer hired. Unless the studs were on two foot centers instead of 16, then it is..what took you all day anyway? LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I don't work in construction, but in manufacturing. Those kind of guys are called managers.
My favorite reply for a "reference check" (that I've never actually used) is "You'll be lucky to get him to work for you." My former employer (a big, national company) had a policy on giving referrals, the policy was that the only info we would give out on former employees was confirming that they had actually worked for us. I'd bend the rules ocassionally if the employee was a good one, but if I had nothing good to say, I just said that company policy prohibited us from providing referrals. That supposedly covered our butt.
Maybe he meant 40 sheets.
Hope so. I gave him the benefit of maybe 19.2 centers I think.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Oops! Yes, it was forty sheets not 400. That would have been a verrrrry long day indeed!Some of my other favorites: Had a guy borrow borrow my level and when I asked for it back his reply was "Why? do you need it?" Same guy standing on a second story roof on the ocean proudly proclaims that "It looks like Florida from up here". We are in Florida and it looks like Florida no matter where you go as long as you don't leave the state.Had another one handing down tools off of the roof to me. I told him to hand down the saw by the cord and he dropped the cord over the edge first.
Had another one handing down tools off of the roof to me. I told him to hand down the saw by the cord and he dropped the cord over the edge first.
Quick, Duck!
You guys are talking about helpers and grunts. I work union up here in Vancouver BC. Some of the journey person Carpenters are as bad as what you have described. We had a big Monorail proect going on with precast segments. I ended up with 3 Brainy acts as partners. One told me he was a right angle specialist. The other had some sort of head inury so he says. And the third is a 10th year apprentic that keeps trying. One day the 2 older guys are arguing on who was the dumber of the two. About this time the shop super comes by and asks how things are going and shakes his head and winks at me. Comes back later and asked them to prove they have a ticket in carpentery.
The apprentic thinks he is smart. Made a comment to a buddy on a different ob that he will be a super soon. At the end of the week layoffs come and he was giving 2 envolopes and looks in side and see's 2 checks. His commet was "See I get payed twice for my work because I'm good." Super rolles his eyes and walks away. saying to buddy see you monday. Peter showed up Tuesday thinking he had a ob.
In Vancouver right now with a trade shortage every go blow wants to be a carpenter. I cring everytime we call the hall for more guys as to what we might get. As my super loves giving the new guy to me as a partner and he laughs.
I ask all the time "Is it me?"
I see things very clearly... i can draw something ..build it 4 years later find the old drawing and it's just as i drew it 4 years ago... I understand "the natural order of things" and I know pretty much exactly how i want something... since 99% of what i do is DOS (design on site) plans aren't worth much even if someone could read em...
so... I try not only to show how i want something done... I explain why we are doing it that way... I try to teach as i go... ie...ask questions make sure they grasp whats going on... then I draw it while explaining it... then I tell/ask em... "ok what do i want done & how?"
I don't (try not to) watch people work... I let em know what is critical and what isn't... and i try to let em find the way that woks for them.... I'll do anything they are doing I'll work side by side all day doing whatever it is that's being done... with me always doing the most dangerous or the ditry parts....
I still come home shake'n my head....
I don't think it's that they don't care... maybe childhood drug use? who knows...
Best carpenter i ever had would cut a 14" block off the end of a 20ft board when 10 drops were under his saw that would have worked.... same guy would stay out all nite and fall asleep at lunch and no one would wake him up til quit'n time... and he'd expect to get paid for the 5 hrs he slept... he was a crackhead i put him in rehab 2x... never took.... he calls once a month wanting to work... but since i quit give'n him more chances i haven't had a breakin or tool missing.... as much as i'd like to have his work... even if he he wasn't guilty if something came up missing i'd have to look to him...
had one kid hired as a favor... didn't know how to operate a broom.... once he mastered that tool... he had no clue as how to get up the piles he'd created.... best was when he started to sweat... he paniced... he thought he'd sprung a leak...
we are not all created equal... that is the FACT... maybe each has his/her own mostly undescovered gift... or maybe no gift at all... I try to believe anyone can do anything with it just being harder and slower for some than others... me believe'n that is start'n to go away with experience...
I do think most trades people are very close to artist....
p
You reminded me of soooo many things...First is that my tool maintainance and replpcaement costs go way doiwn when I'm working alone. I find myself reminding my helper 2-3 time a week - "Don't force it!" - so many hinges and connections and cut cords...But he does try, works hard, and is dependable, so it's worth the investmentWhen I leave him to work alone though, he needs a written list if there are more than two items. Otherwise, he'll leave early - "Yep, got it all done"
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yeah, I had couple guys guys on house I just built. One Kid (19) was great I still have him. Other guy about 24, was a good hard worker, but when it came to tools he seemed oblivious. 1st time he was grinding down some bad spots in some concrete work. afterwards he complained about all the sparks. I told him once in awhile you'll hit the odd rock that will give off sparks. he said it was sparking quite a bit. So I looked at the grinder; he had wore out the ginding wheel, and had been grinding with the arbour nut/washer for who knows how long.
he dropped one of my saws off the roof (which happens) next time he was on the roof he had the "new" saw up there, so I said I'll trade you that one for the one you already dropped. sure enough half hour later the saw came down this time busting the hanldle clear off. ( was sure gald I'd traded saws)
was screwing some missed screws in the subfloor and was burning out the drill by (as you put it) forcing it. I had to show him how to back it off. So many little things I take for granted, simply because no one ever had to show me these things.... just common sense.
The last straw for me was when he was using the power planer and was told to watch for nails and punch in any that are sticking up. end off the day I grab the planer. the blade is shattered and the spindle that the blade is attched to is all gouged. I asked who hit a nail. he said he didn't. My other guy was all that was left so he said he might have (since one of them did, and 1st guy claimed innocent.) and I was looking for someone to fess up.
I spent well over an hour trying to get the fragments and shards out of the spindle that night. next morning I went and looked where 1st guy had been working . sure enough there was the nail plain as day the head planed almost clear off. plane marks back and forth. I'm thinking ok if you didn't hear the sound of the nail destroying the blade and scraping the spindle, could you not tell that when you started, the planer was taking nice smooth shavings off...and then for some reason started to take ugly gouges out of the wood?
I knew there was no way my other guy could have done such damage, and to think he was willing to take the blame.
Edited 4/22/2006 4:18 pm ET by alrightythen
You know there are people out there who do take time to hit their stride. Sometimes when these young guys are trying to please the boss they're nervous or wanting so badly to please you and not get made fun of. There are alot of distractions when you are young. So fewer responsibilities make it easy to daydream, when your older, own a house and have a family to provide for you have to work so much harder to do the right thing because now there are REAL consequences! When your 18, 19 years old the only thing I was thinking about was getting laid. Now I'm 33 with 2 daughters a wife and a house, I'm thinking about doing these jobs correctly and efficiently so I can move on to the next one, so I can earn more cash to provide a good life for the family. When your a 19 year old kid the world is about you. When you get older is about the family now not you. My wife said to me one day "You never buy anything or do anything for yourself". I told her I do whats best for the family, not whats best for me. I know there are stupid people out there, but there are others eager to learn and could possibly get discouraged of learning a trade because of all the high expectations crews and others have of you before you strap on a tool belt for the first time. We all started somewhere and we have to use what God gave us the best we can................my 2 cents............
hope you didn't use red chalk -
"there's enough for everyone"
Reminds me of the time I had a guy working for me, except he had skills. Anyways he comes to me one day and says I got to quit my job.
Are you unhappy? no just got some issues at home with wife, okay what good is quiting going to do for the situation.
Tell ya what I'll do, how bout I pay you a weeks wage you take the week off and get your affairs in order. Ah shucks you will do that for me, yep come winter when your laid off collecting unenjoyment, just make up the weeks time over a 3 month period.
Fast forward November up and quits, okay how bout the money and or time you owe me. Got it in writing, well no figured a mans word was his bond. Withold last check, calls labor board, go to hearing knowing full well that I will be paying up, but figured, at least your going to have to work the system for me to pay you.
Come spring contractor friend calls and he uses me as a reference for job, had to shake my head on that one.
surely that was a mistake! How could he live to be fifty yeqrs old qand stil lbe that useless?
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it's actually illegal to badmouth a former employee. the worst thing you can do is confirm that he worked for you and say no more. you may have dodged a bullet.
He wasn't sharp enough to fire the bullet for one thing. And he wasn't an Employee, he was paid help that if he reached the max would have gotten a 1099.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You gotta be kidding me ..Jorge is @ what %? Now?
Bullrider - where do you live? It it a state thing? I don't think it's generally "illegal" (as in "criminal") to badmouth anyone, though there is always the opportunity for civil action. I've heard of references/employers who have been successfully sued for not badmouthing, but only speaking the truth about their former employees. Ridiculous, if you ask me. Like getting successfully sued for breaking an intruder's arm...
People that are always hiring other people know how to ask questions to get around the "no badmouthing"
One simple question is, "is she/he eligible for rehire", if the answer is no then you at least have a clue about the person.
Doug
Edited 4/21/2006 8:34 pm ET by DougU
Had a guy that stole stuff..Called the cops, pressed charges, he pled guilty, got fined and probation...
Gave me as a reference...Told prospective employer to call the detective for information. Never heard fom anyone again...LOL!!!
Bud
live in new jersey. good point with the illegal...wrong word to use. i didn't mean criminal. rather, if u give any unfavorable info, u can be sued for slander and other civil things. ridiculous, indeed, but that's the way of the world i suppose.
You just described (other than the age) most of the labor force in WNC. Plus nobody can drive 'cause they all have DUI's. It's a wonder anything gets done around here.DCS Inc.
"Whaddya mean I hurt your feelings, I didn't know you had any feelings." Dave Mustaine
Any morning the ride up 64 from Franklin to Highlands looked like they had a special carpooling program going on, every PU truck was stuffed with workers w/o DLs, I know it all too weellll, I was one too. Both as passenger and driver. LOL.
Don't EVER refuse the test with a female trooper on a bad hair day..you be walking for a LONG time.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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ok, Hired a kid (19) who was the son of a good carpenter I know. Father said he and his son just didn't work well together. I'm thinking "great i found a guy who's been helping his dad out since he was little". Was I wrong. I believe he was as ADD as they get. I would set him up, explain what I wanted him to do and let him have at it. I would watch from a short distance away without being obvious. don't like to make the new guy feel like he's being watched. Anyway, he would drift off constantly. one time I was even explaining to him how to use a stud finder and nail the base off as I was cutting it. His response was "where do you think I can find cotter pins". WHAT???? another time i walked into the room and found him laying on his stomach on the floor sanding a splice joint on a peice of base. The piece he spliced in was 3" long. the total run was about 5 feet. He was so proud of that splice but didn't understand why it would have been better to just cut a new peice (square at both ends). Another time I showed up to work and he actually was there before me. He was typically 15 - 30 minutes late. I walk over to his car and he is sleeping soundly. I left him there. We worked with radio, nail guns, chop saws, etc for two hours before he woke up and came inside to join us. Finally, another time he hits the woods to take a leak and comes back 20 minutes later, soaking wet with some sort of plant he found in the stream nearby. I had it . This was all during about three weeks. I told him he was fired. Next thing I know his mom is calling me on the phone asking me why her son was fired, he was a hard worker. I about lost it. I told her to open her eyes and get him some help or he is not going anywhere.
then I don't hear from him or her for a couple days. Then he calls and asks me why I haven't called him to tell him where we are working. asked if I didn't like him or what. I said "I let you go last week. things just weren't working out.". He said so when will I come back? I said your not. silence. It finally sank in. Then I feared I may have sent him over the edge and I'd be reading about him in the paper. Instead I find out he is a gifted fiddle player and is going to ireland to play fiddle on tour with a group. All I can say is WOW!
Apparently, some of the rejects from Mcdonalds made it to job sites.
In defence of some of my friends, their brain is just wired differently. They think I'm a genius when I fix their computer, plumbing, cars, house or video/TV. But they can remember Everyone's name, I will forget your name right after you tell me. There are guys who remember everyone's name and has no other skill. By remembering everyone's name, you make them feel important and that goes along way. Politicians with that skill go all the way. A friend was setting up a microphone for this guy and they chatter for a while, 10 years later when he got into politics he met him again. Ronald Regan remembered his name. Ronnie had more skills than remembering names.
Edited 4/21/2006 6:16 pm ET by Sungod
I knew a banker that knew the names of all 5,000 customers of his bank. I also had a college professor that used yearbooks and the process of elimination to determine and memorize all of his students names and faces before the first day of class with 50 odd students. That really impressed me.
Ohh yea we have a couple of those. One of them is the bosses future son in law. The other is a former professional furniture mover. Big dumb stoner. We dread taking them on jobs. The attention span of nats, and zero comprehension skills.
My big question was when did it become o.k. to pout when you don't get your way at work? Both of these guys will start pouting and trying to give you the silent treatment if the job they are doing isn't "important" enough for them. But both of them will stand around in a pile of trash and tell you that there is nothing to do.
Wop bop a loo bop a lop bam boom!
I did like to ask how many of you had a deaf guy knocking on your door for a job with you or already have one? If so, how are they doing for ya?
Had a deaf woman for a while - she actually worked out pretty well. Then she got the teaching job she was looking for and moved on.Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, I get waylaid by jackassery?
http://grantlogan.net/
I actually briefly worked for a deaf guy once. There were two or three of us working for him building this big barn. He could communicate quite well with everyone, including the owner, because he could read lips so well.
I once hired a deaf framer. He was experienced in commercial framing, but lost on the cut-and-stack residential framing we were doing. I was forever drawing pictures for the guy. Nice guy, hard worker, but just cost me too much to train at journeyman wages. He was real understanding when I finally had to let him go."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
I did some work on a deaf man's house once. His wife was deaf too, so We had to take the communications slow but it all went fine. He had been a truck driver most of his working career
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I think you put your finger on it when you said >> where ever you are Bob... God bless you, I hope you have a salesman job. <<
Different people have different aptitudes. Personally, I'd make a terrible salesmen.
I like what Blue said (paraphrasing): You aren't doing these guys any favors by keeping them around.
Cutting them loose might speed their search for a career that is right for them. I think we all have known a few misplaced souls who couldn't find their niche. In those cases, after 10 or 20 years, it's really kind of a shame.
Yes, what you say is true. Problem today is so many kids have no clue what they want to do, or are capible of. It's hard to know what you are good at if you've spent your entire childhood in front of the TV and playing video games.
I spent my share of time doing those things as a kid, but we were limited. We as kids in our family we learned to help out. I grew up without a dad around, but I had to be creative. built my own tree house and forts as a kid with the help of my younger brother. looking back I wonder how some of it was safe, but I must have figured something out.
I too would make a terrible salesman, I actually was one for a year- a realtor no less, when I was 20 - terrible year. I have to admit I wasn't really sure what I was going to do when I was younger, but the differnce is I least knew I had some talents and the abilty to learn along with a good work ethic.
I think a lot of it falls back on the parents. My 5 year old said on Friday, "Dad I don't have school tomorrow I can help you work". often he will "help" for five or ten minutes then go do something else. There are times when he is actually quite usefull for a five year old. and sure at times it slows me down to have him around. The point is, kids when they are young actually want to help, but we as adults get impatient - "they just get in the way". But how will we expect them to help and learn a good work ethic if we've already engrained in them that they can't help.
Readng this thread makes me feel like such a pro! ;-)