Hey Guys,
I posted this in Knots too, but I know there’s a lot of people here who do cabinet work too.
As a woodworker who almost always works with solid wood, I need some help in selecting a material for one upper kitchen cabinet (paint grade) which will match others in my remodeled kitchen.
I’m familiar with plywood of course, but I was thinking of using MDF or MDO to make it easy to paint. Although I’m unsure about joining the edges and shelves. I have the usual tools to do biscuits, dados, and pocket hole screws. I would ideally like to the use the pocket hole method, which I don’t think works well the MDF conformat screws.
Anyway, maybe somebody who does cabinets could make a recommendation. I would really appreicate it.
Thanks!
Patrick
Edited 10/15/2006 11:22 pm ET by Corrib
Replies
You can use MDF for the upper, it will take conformat screws, I've also used pocket screws on MDF.
You can also use MDF for shelves with edge tape. I'd have to know the sizes of the shelves before giving advice on using it though.
MDO is also a fine choice to build the cab but I'd probably opt for the mdf, depending on size of course. Assuming just a normal size cab the mdf is fine.
There is a plywood out that has a nominal thickness (maybe 1/8") of mdf on it, makes for good painted surface and yet its plywood. I dont recall the name of the material though.
Doug
I have used MDO on a few paint grade cabinets and two window seats. You can get a nice finish on both. I use a solid wood 3/8" edge banding, rather than the veneer tape.
Are you doing a face frame or frameless construction?
Dave
I don't like MDF or MDO for any cabs that may have moisture contact. Use paint-grade 3/4" maple for the boxes, and 1/2" for the backs. Much lighter and stronger, and finishes up just as well. Glue and caul 1/4" poplar for banding on exposed edges. You can use poplar or soft maple for the face frames too. Just my $.02 worth...
Why no mdo for moisture contact. It's used for exterior signs. I wopuld think it would hold up better than any paint grade ply, and it has a better surface to boot.Tom
Douglasville, GA
He probably thought he was talking about MDF. I cannot imagine there is much use of MDO in cabinet work.
He mentioned both mdf and mdo in his statement which is why I asked the question. I have used mdo for cabinet work and find it very nice for paint grade work where moisture is an issue. I also like medex alot for paint grade since it is also very moisture resistant. Works very well for paint grade bathroom baseboard.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
Edited 10/16/2006 12:28 pm ET by TomW
I went back and looked. You're right! Wow! His rejection of MDO for a material in water contact, and then his preferences for solid wood or regular plywood as good water-contact cab materials, don't make any sense at all.
He needs to take a 4" x 4" piece of all his preferences, plus a piece of MDO, and drop them all in a bucket of water for a week or so. He'll come around.
Doing cabinetry for houses on dry land, and not for boats, I do pretty much everything with melamine-faced industrial-grade PB, veneer-core ply, BB, and solid woods. We use MDF in cores of large veneered panels, but I hate working with the stuff.
Don't like screwing into MDF or MDO. And the weight of that crap too. I didn't specify the moisture resistance of MDO.
MDO has a plywood core. It is very different than MDF.Tom
Douglasville, GA
A couple of years ago I used a bunch of oak ProCore. It's veneer ply, with a skin of MDF under the oak veneer. No voids. Took stain more evenly. Havn't seen it around for awhile. Good stuff.
I use a lot of mdf core sheet goods. They are nice and flat and finish well but boy do I hate working with the stuff.Tom
Douglasville, GA
That's what's good about ProCore. Just got a thin 1/16" MDF veneer under both sides of the face veneer. Doesn't affect the screw holding or make it any heavier than normal ply. I was amazed to get a dozen sheets of stain-grade red oak, and not have one sheet with a void. It was the same price too....
Interesting, I've never seen or heard of that.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Just ask for "fiber core" at any cabinet supply house. Stuffs benn around for years, they'll know what you want.
Dave
I am familiar with fiber core, he was talking about "pro core" which is apparantly different.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Thanks for all the info. I've settled on AC oak or birch; oak is actually cheaper iaround here. I'm going with oak or birch frame frames as well. MDF really was only about $5 cheaper. (I'm going to cut them on my new Shopnotes 88 panel saw, which was a project by itself.)
The only other issue is what to do for the panels. I'm going with a flat panel and I'm thinking of 1/2" AC milled with 1/4" tongues for strength. Maybe this is overkill?
Thanks for all the responses.
Patrick
If doing panels you want to edgerout to achieve a 1/4" tongue, you should consider appleply or baltic birch. Problem is, however, I don't know if either is available in an oak veneer.
An excellent reason to invest in bags and a pump, for doing veneer pressing!
Melamine.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Oak is OK for the interior panels.But fro end panels and doors you don't want to use oak for painting, unless you want to do a lot of work filling and sanding.The oak grain will show. Now that is OK and in fact prefered IF the other cabinets are the same. But if they are smooth then you want a smooth panel for the exterior.
Good call, Bill. I kind of forget about the open "grainedness" of oak. I'm more into stain and fuming, so this paint grade thing is new..
I'll post of a pic of the cabinet when it's finished...
Off topic alert.....By the way, do you know why my electrical meter would read 50 volts +/- on live 120 volt circuit?
Let me get my Karnac Turbin on.Ok, now I see it.You have a digital voltmeter.It has a very high inpout impedance with when connected to an open circuit it will capacitive couple to hot circuits and you will measure a voltage like that. It is called phantom voltage.The other thing is that you got two loads (typically lights) wired in series and you are measuring at the center point of the connection.
Thanks Bill! You're a wealth of knowledge and I'm certain my house is better for it. Too bad you're not in Wisconsin, I would certainly hire you to do my new garage circuit breaker upgrade...More than 220v volt outlet is going to be a great day, although I pity the electrician who gets to drive a new ground rod into my rocky soil. (One shouldn't run a breaker to a detached building without a seperate ground rod. I learned that here!)
Anyway, I'll post a pic of the BIRCH cabinet when it's finished.
Thanks again...
Patrick
Your Welcome.
I'll second what bill said about the graininess of the oak ply. It is also much more prone to splinter at the cut and is generally not as user friendly as a good quality birch.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I am looking at the online list of plywood from a local hardwood/plywood dealer.They offer hardwood plywoods with;VC -veneer core (MDF core - "solid" MDF with show veneer.Classic Core - That is a TM from Columibia. It is a VC base, then with a layer of MDF on each side, then the show veneer.
http://www.columbiarewards.net/products/prodcc.aspx
The also have a Classic Core II Looking at this it might be that the CC uses PB and CC II uses MDF. Have not really investigated the details."Width of components is not an option and the minimum width allowed is 3". We have core options and stock hardwood cross band veneer core and Jaycore IV. Jaycore IV is a type of Classic Core that is a calibrated veneer core with thin MDF crossband under the face veneer. Classic Core II uses a thicker MDF crossband and Classic Core I uses Particleboard crossbands. Jaycore IV is the Cadillac of these cores and is a lot less weight than a full-on MDF core panel. For those who just will not accept particleboard or MDF in their panels we have the Veneer Core that utilizes a Hardwood Crossband in place of the MDF and Particleboard."http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Plywood_Quality_Issues.htmlHere is more on t he Jaycore and Kaycore. Did not see that mentioned at the local supplier.http://www.columbiarewards.net/products/prodjk.aspxArmorcore is a similar product.http://www.statesind.com/prod/ind_2a4.htmlThe only Procore that I could find was a plastic core, with metal or other other imprevious veneers and is used for extior work.http://www.citadelap.com/procore.htmThey also had one product with a PB core. Rotory sliced Red Oak with B-2 veneers.In Melamine thay the 1/4" is MDF core. The 1/2, 5/8, 3/4 is PB core.The also have 45# West Cost Industrial PB. That is used a lot in this area for cabinets and counter tops. It is much denser and water resistant than common PB.They have it in 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 1, & 1 1/8" and comes sized for cabinet making. Besides 49x97 they have 25, 30, and 36" wide and lenghts up to 145"
I know you said paint grade, but I always use birch plywood for boxes. I know its probably a little anal but if I want cheap boxes i'll just buy them already finished.
If your local supplier has flat AC birch ply I'd start with that since it's easy to work with and produces as good a finish as your painter wants to put on it.
For paint grade shelf edges, face frames and doors I often use maple since it holds up well and has a tight grain. I also use a lot of oak since it's easy to work with and only requires a quick filling of the pores prior to painting to produce a smooth surface.
I've used mdf for built ins and cabinet cases and it is wonderfully flat and easy to work with (for glorified cardboard). Having said that, I've gone back to AC birch for 95% of what we make as finish carpenters since we can hand pick the sheets and often need the extra structural strength of the ply to simplify construction or installation.
Dedicated cabinet shops can't hand pick large amounts of full ply sheet goods so they use the much flatter ply with mdf core and veinered faces.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.