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I’m planning to price a kitchen re-model for a client using a local cabinet shop, and give them an alternative choice using stock cabinets. I’d appreciate any advice on stock brands that are particularly good or bad. I’ve previously used Kraftmaid, and had mixed feelings. Roll out trays and drawers worked fine, and the doors were fine, but I didn’t like the trim details like the toe kick. Also, the lazy susan corner cabinet was quite flimsy. Don’t know if Kraftmaid is about as good as it gets for stock cabinets, or if an alternate brand would provide better quality if these folks won’t go custom. Thanks.
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DML - look for a brand that offers upgrades such as full extension or concealed drawer slides, or oddball heights on wall cabinets for example. That is one of my cheif complaints of those cabinet factories, you don't get enough choices (along with the 3" increment problem). I'm not sure if DeWills Cabinets offers these options, but they have always seemed well built for the money to me.
There is another thread on the board right now "Omega Cabinets..." that you might want to read. - jb
*Kraftmaid is probably a mid- to upper-level semi-custom line. It does offer hardware upgrades, for surprisingly little extra money. We spec'd full extension undermount drawer glides, dovetail joints, pull-out shelves, etc. for little cost. VERY good investments -- a drawer that doesn't work right irritates you forever.On the other hand, their boxes are pathetically weak and the work sloppy. Not horrible, I'm satisfied with what we have, but not as good as I'd expect. We bought the very simplest oak door design. I went ballistic last week, however, when i priced out a white Shaker door style that a client wanted. Not only was the price about 50% more than I'd paid, but the quality of the white doors was poor -- laminate over MDF.So I went looking and learned a bit. Turns out that Kraftmaid etc. don't actually make cabinets -- they bid out their specifications to various mills for doors and drawers. The local "custom" shop is one of those suppliers that decided to sell direct. They offer a substantial trade discount -- about 50%! -- and don't have to do all the marketing and bribes to HD, etc. that the higher profile brands do. Especially nice is that the people I talked to actually knew what was going on, unlike some "designers" I've met. They benefit from getting a more sophisticated buyer who pretty much knows what they need.So for a better price I'm buying 8-coat white lacquer over hard maple with dovetail construction, good hardware, hardwood shelves, and so forth. I'm lucky I decided to do some digging -- and next time my markup on the cabinets will be a lot more! The client will still save money on a better product and I will benefit from researching the trade -- and looking better from the attractiveness and durability of the installation.Live and learn. If you go the TRUE custom route, I think it only makes sense for special needs such as wanting an unusual wood or special application. Going to a low-volume non-automated shop for ordinary cabinets doesn't make much sense. This is high-end to me ... $2-3k for a small kitchen's cabinetry is about what I'd expect. If you want fine furniture, you can buy that instead .. for a price.P.S. Made my own toekick covers for the Kraftmaid cabinets from 1/4" oak veneer ply cut into strips.
*A couple of reasons for going the TRUE custom route include getting cabinets built to FIT your kitchen instead of getting within 3" and filling the rest . Or if your not happy with pathetically weak cases and 3/8"-1/2" particleboard construction assembled with hotmelt glue for the most part . I will admit the doors ,drawer fronts , and faceframes are usually fine and some of the finishes are better than you can achieve in a small shop or on site . But from the faceframes on back they are really cheap .There are some better quality stock cabinets out there with plywood cases [ still only 3/8" -1/2" ] and real veneer instead of a vinyl picture of wood , but when you upgrade to this level you have probably reached or exceded the cost of custom .And there is somthing to be said for being able to drive across town and look the guy in the eye's that built your cabinets if there is a problem [ see the thread on Omega cabinets ] . BTW I am biased , I have a low volume custom shop and use 3/4" hardwood plywood construction for cases and top quality hardware . I have actually bid against stock cabinets a couple of times and came in a little lower [ maybe I'm to cheap ] .Chuck
*You probably ARE too cheap!Have many out there seen cabinet failures due to inadequate carcass construction? (And I don't mean the ridiculously shoddy ones, more like 1/2" particle board.)
*Chuck - I am in full agreement with you about the quality of the box of the average factory built cabinet, that's why I mentioned DeWill's. They use an AD grade fir for their boxes and although it's 1/2" , they get real good results with 1+1/8" faceframes. I worked for a cabinet dealer for about a year installing many different brands, and that was the only brand, at Chevy prices, that I really thought was almost as good as custom built. I still don't like the size restrictions you typically have to deal with though.As far as pricing, don't assume they can build, ship, warrenty, and make a profit off their factory built cabinets cheaper than you can build them. In fact, I recently did a large (for me) remodel that included kitchen cabinets. I priced them to build myself, Home Depot, a large local custom shop, and a small local custom shop. The small shop beat the crap out of all the rest (30%), plus gave us the flexibilty to truly customize the cabinets for the space we had to work in. As far as Kraftmaid bein' good cabinetry, I'd say their best cabinets are about the starting point of what I'd like to have in my house. Maybe I'd use the mid level stuff in a rental or spec house, but I doubt it. - jb
*I'm still in the searching process. Here's what I've learned so far:DRAWER FRONT & DOORS are often made in huge, specialty factory shops that sell to "name" brands and local shops who resell with the finished cabinets. STYLES, PROFILES & EDGE DETAILS vary a lot and each shop has a certain set they are tooled for and that's that. Compare shops to get exactly the combination you want.Kraftmade seems to be a middle line, if you look at the who range (though it may be the top line in some dealers range). $2-3K seems to be a bottom to low-middle range for a smallish kitchen. Mills Pride or American Woodmark in the Home Depot range; particle board cases, melamine finish.Home Depot may be an example you'll find with other resellers.... their premium line may be from a regional manufacturer who will sell to you factory direct fro as much as 50% less. Once you geta reseller quote on a premium line, seek out the manufacturer and check.Some say white is passe and natural woods are all the rage, others say white is still a clean, desireable look. In any case you may find a 10-15% upcharge for white painted woods as compared to natural finishes. Sometimes you can offset that by downgrading from a premium hardwood to paint grade poplar. Manufacturers are very variable on this, some will some won't, some do some don't. The white lacquers and look fabulous, but don't always tolerate water well. Our sink base is looking pretty sad after just a year. It will want refinishing in another year. We went in with eyes wide open but a customer might be irate."Stock to Custom" or true custom is more expensive on the face of it, but price out both the lost space and the extra labor of fabricating and installing fillers, shims and blocking. For many customers there is also an aesthetic issue of lining up vertical and horizontal planes (tops and sides) and the pattern is broken by stock sizes and fillers.Seems to me the carcases are largely self supporting once installed (attached to the wall and/or floor and each other). Where you really want solding construction is in shelves, bottoms and drawer bottoms. But the manufacturers tend to brag about the heavier sides and backs but not offer beefed up drawer bottoms etc. Haven't figured that on out yet.Get shop drawings before your cabinets go to production, even if there is a charge. They may look fine on the little CAD 8 1/2 x 11 they fax you, but see it in detail. Check for extended stiles and rails where you need them, and how the boxes meet in corners... which one butts which, is there room for the doors to open AND the roll outs to clear. Is total depth of cabinet plus doors really what you need to match appliance depth or will you spend a lot of time blocking away from the wall?Make sure they will supply you with factory paint or stain to match up any damage or site fabricated moldings or fillers. Some manufacturers (or maybe lazy reps) seem reluctant.
*Sign me ditto to Chuck and Jim; I also posted some other opinions on the Omega cabinets thread. basically, i think the small custom shop can provide much better value in the long run , and be price competitive in the short run, against the big lines. Everything I have seen reinforces my belief that there is a continuum, with the smallest shops providing the highest quality and best service, and the biggest shops providing the lowest quality and worst service. And often the better cabinetry comes with the best price, because there are a lot more small shop owners out there committed to their craft than big shops who really stand behind their product.Andrew; you are just plain out there on this one. I'm a licensed journeyman cabinetmaker, and I've taught it at the college level.I have seen and installed a lot of custom and factory cabinets, and I have seen a lot of absolute shit foisted on consumers by the big lines. A lot of my business is pulling out worthless, broken down kitchen cabs that the owners just can't stand after a few years, and replacing it with solid, well built stuff that is designed to suit their needs, and last over the long term. Chuck and Jim are doing the same; why are you so resistant to the idea that local custom shops can be competitive?
*Adrian. I am flattered to be thought "out there." I thought I was losing my edge as I aged... All I said above is that unless you appreciate and demand truly custom design -- by which I mean cabinets of arbitrary width, depth, material, design, etc. -- that the mass-produced quality cabinets are fine. Price is important, and a small shop just can't compete with a large efficient operation in the styx where rents are cheap and they have the volume to get discount materials and the really expensive equipment that makes each unit cheaper. True, the local shops are competitive in more than the luxury market. But from the companies I talked to, it was foolish it to go to them for plain-vanilla oak cabinets. Obviously I don't think anyone should buy junk (unless they're selling ;)), and I agree that being cheap up front costs a lot over even the short term. Really, I just disagree with the idea that if it's NOT custom (i.e., handmade) then it is always junk. I'm also not sure that making sacrifices to buy a 50-year cabinet over a 20-year cabinet make sense. You're more likely to move on or want to remodel the space before then. And if customers don't care as much about craftsmanship as they do cooking dinner, so be it. I hope there will always be enough of a market to keep the craftspeople going, though lately it looks grim. Everything I read says that fewer and fewer youths are going into the skilled trades, choosing office careers insteads. We live in a culture of disposibility. My impression from this board is that the rich are the ones commissioning the interesting work these days. I don't have 1% of your experience, but I really love and admire beautiful work to which most people rasied on particle board are oblivious. However, I hate to admit, we don't have one stick of noteworthy furniture in this house. Owning such things just isn't where our priorities are these days. P.S. I guess I never posted a price for the white cabinets. A dozen cabinets, about 18' uppers and lowers, good hardware, hardwood shelves, hard maple doors/fronts, dovetailed, particle boxes (fine by me), some special stuff like glass doors and modified widths or stiles -- $2100. I'm picking them up myself because they charge extra to deliver into DC -- theft insurance! DScott. Well, you pretty much say what I think. I don't like white for upkeep reasons; yes, it will look fabulous installed but my client does a lot of Indian cooking... I've warned her in writing about upkeep problems and attempted to persuade her to get something repairable, such as a whitewashed hardwood. I didn't like the melamine white/MDF because I couldn't see any way to repair it, and it lacked the feel of real wood. Surprising to me, the company i talked to priced natural maple and white-lacquered maple about the same. The painting requires a lot more labor, but they use a lower grade of maple so it comes out the same. They felt white was a few years out of style in this area and would hurt resale, but that in a few years people would forget the reason white went out (upkeep) and would turn to it again. Thanks for the tip about water and lacquer.
*Just to add my two cents of agreement, after shopping around I ended up having my cabinets built at a small local amish cabinet shop. About 30' of lowers and 26' of uppers(all 42-48"), all 5/8 plywood sides/shelves, glued and nailed (hand finished nailed no less), custom sized in height, width and depth, oak fronts, some rollouts. The total bill was $4600 + $50 delivery, about $600 less than HDs lower-mid grade with particle board. Add to that the obvious pride they took in their work, the decision was a no brainer. All built without electricity. Pretty impressive. The only downside was limited hinge selection.-SWright
*Chuck;Curious...I too usually make the carcases (and faceframes if that is specd) but I almost always buy the doors. I'm in calif and use Decorative. Do most small shops make or buy? ( $9 per sq ft for oak, $12 for cherry, solid raised panel doors, sized to 1/16 inch...I can't do it for that)
*Thought I'd post this here instead of under the Omega fiasco posting to make it clear this was a generalization not specifically addressing that problem.Whether stock or custom one needs to shop when buying kitchen cabinets. There are stock that look good and meet the price ceiling the house and location set. In my experience there are also some custom that can stay within that price ceiling. But the custom folks have a harder time of it when trying for the mid to lower markets.If it weren't for the ceiling price set by the house I would always recommend custom. But often the result of custom is a beautiful kitchen that won't even bring half of its installation price at resale. I know, everyone thinks the house they are in is "forever" and "quality at any price is worth it because I'm here forever". I thought that too for a couple houses.Plus, the local custom guy doesn't have any better likelyhood of being around in a couple years when you have problems than the large company. We see postings about this frequently on this board. Someone is tired of their current job or needs to make more money and moves on. They certainly aren't going to lose current income to go back after several years to a previous business.So, figure out how much money you can spend on the kitchen, then shop, then hope you don't get stung by a bad company or by a custome builder that either goes awol or has a heart attack in the middle of your job.
*Hi Adam , I out scource ninety percent of my doors to a local guy even further out in the sticks than I am .Thats all he does and I pay about eight dollars a square foot for oak & ash , more for hickory/pecan . He actually charges a set price per door up to a certain size but I've averaged the cost over several jobs . I'd say the ratio of small shops around here , Eastern Oklahoma [I'm a one , sometimes two man shop ] that make their own raised panel doors as opposed to buying is about fifty-fifty . Nearly all my cabinets are faceframe , how about yours ? I'd have to live a long time or increase my volumn a helluva lot to justify buying all the equipment needed to profitably make my own RP doors. Chuck
*Yup, me too. Small shop, 1-2 guys mostly. I outsource doors on any bigger jobs, some drawer boxes. My business is part furniture, plus some weird specialty stuff, so I'm not making cabinets every day. I can buy good doors way cheaper than I can make them, and concentrate on other things.
*Yeh, but that is the hardest part to do, therefore the most satisfying. I am sorely tempted to buy doors, but I haven't yet. Just recently started book matching all the panels. I wonder what's next. I can remember on the first cabinet job I sold, getting really excited when I figured out a jig to pre drill my shelf holes fast. Every job (I only build 1 or 2 sets a year anyway) it seems like I make some new breakthrough. I guess, in time, the thrill will be gone, but I hope not. That's what keeps me in the shop late, or gets me out there before breakfast, when I come up with a solution to something. Geez, I only have about 10 years left, and I'm just gettin' started! - jb