Okay so our post asking for design help ideas went over like a lead balloon
We wanted to share with y’all where we are with the kitchen remodel ideas.
We’ve talked to several designers, a design-builder and we’ve got several more in the chamber ready to be interviewed.
Here’s the exact existing layout of the room which will be our kitchen.
Now with dimensions!!! The big giant windows are great for morning light but they are a pain to plan around! That and the window on the south wall is to dang close to the corner.
Here’s our best attempt so far at a realistic remodel. The whole bump-out idea from earlier was kinda quashed by reality….We managed to get a little bit more space in the kitchen by squeezing down the chimney chase by 6″ and removing half of it. Now its an AV cabinet and a small chase to run wires to the top floor. This also freed up enough space for us to put a corner china cabinet in the spot. Now we have somewhere to put our fancy wedding china and glasses…if we can find them Notice also that the wall between the bedroom and kitchen has been pushed into the bedroom 21″. By moving the walls we gained 30 sq ft not fabulous but not horrible either. It makes the bedroom smaller but we think still quite livable with the 10′ ceilings. We still plan on recessing the fridge into the wall so that its flush with the counters. Along the back wall we also moved the existing window away from the wall to allow for a corner wall cabinet. We did a mirror image window and cabinet on this same wall. Now the stove is flanked by windows with a view to the backyard.
Here’s a shot looking into the room from standing in front of the stove. You can see the china hutch in the newly made corner. That weird pattern on the ceiling is my attempt to make it look like a tin ceiling with my cheap-o home design program. Lots of counter and cabinet space here.
Here’s the view from the sink looking to the left. Not sure about the glass door into the sunporch its just a thought. It is a ‘sunporch’ and we might want to let light in from that direction. This also shows the new window we added to match the existing window on this wall.
Here’s the view from the table looking at the fridge side of the room. In this version the fridge and pantry cabs run all the way to the ceiling while the rest are just standard cabinets. One odd thing about this layout is the door to the bedroom is more in the kitchen than it was before.
Here’s the view looking towards the sink and stove. Notice we brought the window away from the wall 2′ and lowered it so that we can see out of it more easily.
- How much cabinet and counter space do we really need? Should all the wall cabinets go all the way to the ceiling to maximize storage?
- What the best place for the main sink and can we fit a prep sink in there somewhere? Do we even need a prep sink?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 5/21/2008 2:53 pm by madmadscientist
Edited 5/21/2008 2:54 pm by madmadscientist
Replies
Okay I fixed the weird formating so the post reads a lot more sensibly...
bump
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Hey, maybe I missed it, but which way is reference north on that? I assume the sunroom is south, but you know what they say...
k
Yea sorry the north arrow got cropped off. The sunporch faces south.
We get great morning light in thru the two big windows on the east side.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I guess Mama squashed the idea of swapping the kitchen and bedroom locations. Are you still looking to lose the sunroom to a stairwell?
Yea that got voted down she wants the morning light coming in from the big windows on the east wall.
The stairway down just takes up too much damn space compared to a spiral. The rationalization is that its not for carrying stuff up and down just people. So now we are back to using the west end of the sunporch for a spiral stair.
We've been talked into putting the washer dryer on the top floor.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Wow got kitchen cabinet price shock today.
The local hippy-green-design place just gave us a quote for $31,000 bucks for just the cabinets shown in the diagrams!! This is for maple raised panel doors quality slides and 3/4" ply construction(hippy glue and what not) I know they use a local cabinet shop for their work and they have to mark it up but wow...that's a lot of money.
Our last kitchen using KraftMaids upgraded to make them worthwhile (done in '01) cost ~$10,000 bucks and we've got roughly twice as many cabinets in the new kitchen plan so we were thinking ~$20,000 obviously...
Am I just naive or is that what good quality cabs go for now a days? That's before counter-tops and backsplashes and installation?
I need to win the lottery to get this house done...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I don't see the diagrams but I'm not blinking
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well if you are overcome with curiosity check the first post in this thread for the pretty pictures.
LF of base cabinets 27.92
LF of wall cabinets 26
LF of tall cabinets 1.67
Those were the #'s the ballpark estimate was based off of...
If that's what it costs for quality cabinets thats what it costs...but still ouch.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
at 600 a running foot,i'd have to be looking for something that wasn't "green". if it glows in the dark it makes it easier to find the frig at night.
i know your in cailf and i'm out in ks where we still have horse and buggy, but i swear the word green and kitchen cabs hasn't been said in the same sentence.lol we do have a few hippys though
i'd start looking at some knockdown cabs and ordering the doors.larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Actually its $557 a lin ft.!!!!
Here's the place http://www.ecohomeimprovement.com/
Its super crunchy even by my standards!
Piffin does not seem to think that price is crazy??
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Where is this kitchen diagram? I'm just trying to see what your getting for $30K.
EDIT, never mind, I didnt wait for it to load! Gotta go back and see what the deal is.
I need to know if I should start making cabinets and sending them to California. I know a guy here in Iowa that builds a lot of cabinets and sends them to CO so maybe............
Doug
Edited 6/23/2008 7:59 pm ET by DougU
>looking for something that wasn't "green".<
if it was really green in the 1st palce. Just recently read a somewhat intersting article at the NYT about Greenwashing.
Daniel- Shop around and challenge their prices.
I'm a self-employed cabinetmaker; I've been running a one-man shop in the greater Seattle area for 10 years. I would feel like I was raping you at half that price. A kitchen that size would take me about a month to complete. I'd probably have about $3500 in materials in it. $4000 max. That'd be a hell of a payday for me. If you accept that bid the cabinetmakers who actually build your kitchen will probably make about $15 to $18 an hour. The shop owner - the guy with the overhead - will make a nice profit. The middleman/broker will make a killing for a little time on his computer. As a hard working blue collar guy I think that sucks.
Well that's hard to hear.
Everyone here says, 'Try a local custom cabinet shop they will be cheaper.' But the wife says she's called everyone in the phone book and never heard back. I'm suspecting that maybe she didn't quite try hard enough...
I want to use a local custom cab shop if I can find one that is a quality operation and that will return phone calls? You know of any in the immediate SF bay area?
thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
For that kind of money, I'd want some sort of iron-clad assurance that the greenEST methods and materials were used to build the cabinets.Like, the tablesaw is powered by a foot-pedal, and the operator only eats organic food that's fertilized with his own ####. ;-)I'd make your deal with the devil and just buy whatever.
I've been a self-employed cabinet maker for 10 years in Atlanta...If I couldn't get twice what the op was quoted I'd feel like I was being raped.J
....just to offer another viewpoint (and it was in jest)...I'd have to get 3 times that...hehehe.Jay
I think the pricing is too high. $31K as a ballpark will turn into $36-$37K when it is all done.
You said you wanted to use a local builder, but why? Are these guys the best out there? or do they just charge much more for their product because they tout that their product is green?
Just how green is it and have you checked into other cabinet lines to compare how green their production process is?
For that many lineal feet of good quality cabs here, we would retail them at about 2/3 that price.
I think these guys saw you coming from a mile away with your name tattooed right up on your forehead.
I am not in any way insulting you. I have a kitchen & bath shop and we represent 4 different cabinet lines. I have been in the business for greater than 30 years and have seen all the tricks used by sales people and business owners. We started our company because I kept getting fired from other companies because I couldn't keep my mouth shut when I saw the client being lied to and taken advantage of.
I would check out other local cab fabricators in the area and maybe some other regional brands and compare pricing and quality before you make a decision.
sully
Yea the super-green place was high we thought also. We've contacted several other cabinet shops and if they are all bidding on the same thing we've got a large range in prices...from $18,000-$38,000!!! So I don't know what the reality is....
Regional cabinet lines that's interesting-not sure what that would be exactly...
I'm not against buying cabinets long distance think thats something you could do? I'll try to post the newest ideas tomorrow let me know what your think.
Thanks for the reply,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Hi madmad aka Daniel,I haven't read the entire thread of this post, but was wondering why you didn't you go straight to a cabinet shop? They'll generally want to make sure the layout is going to work for what they're building anyway. I mean unless your diagram is detailed enough to generate a set of plans that'll minimize filler strips at stuff.When we did our house last year, our designer's drawings weren't nearly good enough to build off of. As for being green, at first I wanted to use Lyptus¯ wood but my cabinet maker didn't like the stuff that was available (4/4 stock and and MDF core plywood). We ultimately spec'd out FSC Cherry (if you can really believe the certification). The prices varied widely from the different cabinet shop estimates. One was even less than the higher-end off the shelf cabinets quote. But my selection was based ultimately the quality of the cabinets that he showed me and him letting me use his shop for some stuff that my little makeshift remodel workshop couldn't handle.
We've got quotes from 6 local cabinet shops. They are clustered at 3 at ~$17,000 and 3 at around $33,000....
We have not yet figured out if we are comparing apples to apples yet???
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Daniel,I also got quotes that swung wide. Usually you could figure out the differences, but it does get hard cause some of the cabinet makers will go the extra distance for you with some of the features you feel that are important. Anyway, I imagine you've looked pretty closely at what you'd get for the money on the different quotes. But my guess of the important comparisons would be:-boxes: particle board vs. MDF core ply vs. veneer core ply
-solid wood edge vs. edge banding
-inset doors and drawers vs. overlay
-3/4 inch face frame vs 7/8 inch face frame (yeah that's right, my cab guy used 7/8"!!!)
-attention to detail on grain matching
-filler strips vs. scribed face frames
-obligatory dovetail drawers (dubious value but that's what all your friends will look at)I'm sure everyone is using nice self closing glides. I thoroughly enjoyed working with my cabinet maker, we're good friends now!
I don't know what it was, but nothing ever loaded for me the first time.
At least now I can see and read it, but took forever to load.For the amt of work, if these are really good units, that is still a fair price in my book, but I am inclined to agree with susie that the design is a little clunky.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
For the amt of work, if these are really good units, that is still a fair price in my book, but I am inclined to agree with susie that the design is a little clunky.
Thats just for the cabinets not install or even shipping does that still seem reasonable?
Clunky!?!?!? Clunky!?!? what do you mean that two people with no kitchen design experience at all can't make a perfect design???
Yea its not perfect which is why we are asking for help here...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Not meant to insult, I realize what you were working with.Also, I had an idea today about that header under a bay you had in another thrtead. Rather than remove anything, yuou could bolt a 1/4" steel plate to what is there to take some load and prevent further sagging. Maybe jack a little in the center first, then lag it in place.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Think about putting a window seat on the east wall , bumped out a couple feet if you can, get an oval pedestal leg table so it can overhang the seat a few inches. We did this in our old kitchen when we couldn't afford a full out addition, made a huge difference for a fairly small investment. We reused the old windows , whole thing cost us $600 in 1988. In 2001 we were finally able to afford full addition, wish I could have kept the window seat but it made more sense not to. We're building a new house now and it will have the kitchen table in a big window seat on the south wall. Figure all four grandkids can sit there and be out of the way but still involved.
That was one of our first ideas. It turns out changing the exterior wall in my city was going to be next to impossible and very expensive so we are trying to make do with-out.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Call this place. They are down near Santa Cruz, but might be willing to travel up to do your job.
Frameless cabinetry, done right, at a fair price.
Mellor's Fine Woodworking86 Alta DriveLaSelva Beach, CA 95076http://www.mellors.biz
831.662.3258
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
I thought you would of known that I was kidding.
On the header I think I've got the wife almost ready to agree to replace the existing windows with new windows and If I do that I'll be able to get a post inbetween them and cut the span down to 3'. I'm thinking then I can cut out the doubled top plate and use a 6by6 PSL beam as a header and be good to go.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Sorry ... but this is not a good kitchen plan. You can't even stand at the sink and load the dishwasher without risking falling over the door.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Yes I agree this is not a good design that's why I posted it here.
There is slightly over 2' from the DW door to the sink you think that's too close?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dangerous corner
Jeff
Hey Daniel,
Ok, without reading all the post right now, let me ask some questions and point out a couple of things...
It sounds like this is your primary home, right?
I'm guessing the windows are low enough so that cabinets can't be placed below?
Tell me how flexible you are about relocating the doors into the sun room and the kitchen. Do you really need both doors??
The sink in the corner isn't bad, but it's a really small sink and the range is really close. Looks like you will get minimal cabinetry in that area and almost no set-off space beside the range. The sink and range are sharing a very small amount of counter space.
Also consider that your range will probably be somewhat deeper than the counter, not counting handles that protrude. The space is so tight I'm concerned about bruising hips just trying to get in the right position to load the DW.
I think the idea of recessing the fridge is a good one. If you're going to do that, invest a little more to build it in with a cabinet that will cover the case, generally about 29" deep. Adjust the depth for the amount you will recess the unit.
All of your usable counter space is across the room from 2 of your triangle elements. Plus, if anyone is sitting at the table while meals are being prepared, the people in the chairs are an added obstruction.
While providing extra storage, the cabinets directly across from the range wall take up money and space without doing much to improve efficiency in the kitchen. Can you define exactly what will be in that area for me?
Give me a day or so to draw this up and mull it over. I'll see if I can give you some other things to consider!
Hi Susie and thanks for helping us out with this.
When you get a chance to look at all the renders in the first post on this thread it might make more sense. If you expand out the post and wait for the pics to load you can see the renders of all the sides of the room. The first diagram is what we got. The second is our best guess so far. In that diagram we've moved the wall that adjoins the bedroom back, we've cut down the size of the chimney chase, we've gotten rid of the door in the kitchen also and we've moved that weird window on the back wall away from the corner to fit a corner wall cab and given it a mirror image twin.
It sounds like this is your primary home, right?
Yes this is our one and only and forever house.
I'm guessing the windows are low enough so that cabinets can't be placed below?
Yep the bottom of the trim on those are ~18" off the floor enough space for a bench maybe but thats it.
Tell me how flexible you are about relocating the doors into the sun room and the kitchen. Do you really need both doors??
We are open to anything.
The sink in the corner isn't bad, but it's a really small sink and the range is really close. Looks like you will get minimal cabinetry in that area and almost no set-off space beside the range. The sink and range are sharing a very small amount of counter space.
Yea we don't like the sink solution we came up with either. I think that we were thinking that the counter from the sink out over the DW would be one place a person coudl work and the far side of the stove would be the other place.
Also consider that your range will probably be somewhat deeper than the counter, not counting handles that protrude. The space is so tight I'm concerned about bruising hips just trying to get in the right position to load the DW.
Hmmm good point the DW is 3' from the stove and I was sorta imagining that the dishes would get loaded right from the table straight in...hmm is that not how those things work?
I think the idea of recessing the fridge is a good one. If you're going to do that, invest a little more to build it in with a cabinet that will cover the case, generally about 29" deep. Adjust the depth for the amount you will recess the unit.
Yep we will recess our full depth fridge all the way so it is flush with the counters and cover the sides and top with cabinets.
All of your usable counter space is across the room from 2 of your triangle elements. Plus, if anyone is sitting at the table while meals are being prepared, the people in the chairs are an added obstruction.
Yep I had this crazy idea of doing a bump-out where the table is now and getting it out of the way but then reality set in. We really need the kitchen to be an eat in thing and that table is the actual size of our table which we think is the smallest we can comfortably fit 6 adults at.
While providing extra storage, the cabinets directly across from the range wall take up money and space without doing much to improve efficiency in the kitchen. Can you define exactly what will be in that area for me?
Do you mean the cabs all the way across the room? You know I have no idea how much in cabinets we need so for this draft I just stuck them everywhere. If you are talking about the wall cabs to the left of the sink thats where are everyday dishes are going to go.
I should say that we do cook at the stove-saute and bbq we don't bake really and I woudl love it if we could have a second prep area with a sink. We do parties for lots when the weather is nice and I need space for at least two people to prep.
Give me a day or so to draw this up and mull it over. I'll see if I can give you some other things to consider!
Thanks so much any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Thanks for the info.
I'll check out the rest of the renders as soon as I can. Maybe we can come up with something that will help you out a bit.
Is the info on what you were quoted for cabinets somewhere in these posts?
On post 9 I copied a little bit of the quote.Here I will include the full PDF of the quote. Its only what the store calls a 'ballpark' quote.
thanks for taking the time to look at this for us.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Daniel,
I didn't include any info on the quote you got in previous posts.
However, like many others, I thought the price quoted for just cabinetry is much too high. I also noted there were not even general notations as to construction standards.
For more info on greener choices for cabinet materials, check out the American Plywood Association at apawood.org. You can find links to the manufacturers of various materials that will help you determine what's available. If you are choosing low or formaldahyde-free products because of allergies or just because of greener practices, you should be able to get what you need to be better informed.
Green products can cost more than others, so some of that cost is p in the price quoted. However, you may be able to find materials to satisfy your requirements for being green that don't break the bank.
The price quoted you is just too much even for a ballpark, and I'd keep investigating your resources. Another thing that will help as you make comparisons is to decide on a plan, the accessories you will want, the types of drawer glides and hinges, etc. so you can provide that info to the cabinet shops or dealers who are going to quote. That way they'll all be quoting on the same things.
That's not to say that they won't have good ideas you will want to adopt, but they should quote you on what you present to them and offer their suggestions with alternate pricing.
Good luck and let me know how it goes!
Hey Daniel,
At long last I've got something for you to look at. I have 2 PDF files, but I have no idea how to attach them to this post.
If someone can help, I'd appreciate it.
when you reply look for the [Attach Files] button below the text entry box. It's right next to [Spell Check]
Thanks.
I have done attachments in the past, and I managed to get one to work. Lately I've had no luck so I need to figure what I must be doing wrong.
After you hit [Attach Files] exepct to have a pop-up window. mebbe pop-up blocker is interfering...
Okay Susie here's your designs
View Image
View Image
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Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 7/13/2008 4:07 am by madmadscientist
Edited 7/13/2008 4:08 am by madmadscientist
Edited 7/13/2008 4:08 am by madmadscientist
My vote is for the second option "Kitchen C." Seems much more functional to me. I'm probably full of it, though. : )
Jason
The C kitchen is interesting but I was worried about having the high powered stove so near the table. I do a lot of high heat sauteeing and more likely than not I would burn someone sitting at the table.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Thanks Susie,
I'll post your designs to the list tomorrow along with our newest that takes into consideration some of your ideas and some of the ideas we've gotten from a couple local cabinet shops we've been in contact with.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Here's a couple more designs from a couple of local cabinet shops.
Don't quite know whats going on with the doorway in this one?
View Image
I like the angled cabinet idea in this lower one.
View Image
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 7/13/2008 4:14 am by madmadscientist
Edited 7/13/2008 4:16 am by madmadscientist
Skip the angled base corner cabinet to the right of the range. I see lots of people draw those in so they can "get the most cubic feet" out of a corner, but it's not a very good storage solution. There's a limited amount of things that will store efficiently in that space, so you are actually not getting the benefit from all of that space and you lose drawers.
I'm not sure what they're doing in the corner either, maybe just didn't was to finish out both drawings.
I'll stay out of the kitchen stuff, I can't even remember the work triangle rules from design school, but i wanted to offer a quick comment on the "green-ness" of some products versus others.
Take a company like Kraft-Maid. They design products and order supplies in sizes that fit their patterns to eliminate waste. They use CNC equipment to minimize slop/mistakes. They likely buy their materials at one of the lowest cost/quality ratios in the industry. In order to meet that and make a profit, their suppliers have to do something similar.
Take the typical MDF supplier. They invented a product built from wood waste (sawdust) and learned that it's quite stable and durable for the application (kitchen cabinets). They buy their chips and dust from companies that once just left them in piles. There's so much value in chips, that whole logs are sent to chip mills these days (if you ever get a chance, go watch a chip mill operate - it's awesome).
The sawmills cut their logs using CNC controlled saws that can much more quickly and accurately do what a sawyer could do - get the most whole wood from a log. This eliminates waste and energy consumption to grow, cut, and deliver whole wood.
Most pine comes from planted forests because tree farmers, just like corn farmers, want the highest yield per acre. Tracked tree cutters and skidders don't tear up the soil like the old wheeled skidders and they keep guys off the ground with chain saws that cut everything in site because they want to get to the trees easily. They no longer clear and burn after cutting, they just plant amongst whatever's there - this is good for soil retention and water clarity in local streams and rivers.
I could go on, but all this is to say, our industries are QUITE "GREEN" - because it makes them more money to do so.
I'm not sure but are you saying that Kraft-Maid is a high quality cabinet for a lower price?
I've got nothing against Kraftmaid think they make good stuff and will probably go to one of the borgs to get pricing as a reality check of sorts.
Still would prefer to use a local shop where I can talk to the craftsman.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
"are you saying that Kraft-Maid high quality cabinet for a lower price?"
By no means! :)
I was talking solely to the perspective of being green.
Kraft-Maid is a good quality cabinet at a good price. High quality cabinets are typically going to come from a custom shop. If you use Kraft-Maid or any other major manufacturer, you won't be able to speak to the craftsman, because there are none - except maybe the installer.
The best thing about a custom shop is that they can build any box for any application. The major high-volume players will make any box you want, as long as you want the boxes they make.
ditto what ASmith said about a local cabinet builder. Worked for many years in cab shops through college. You'll find much better fits for cabinets and usually more useable space from a local custom builder than any of the assembly line makers. They're defineitly worth investigating.
There are many custom "manufactured" cabinets available today, so I disagree that a local cabinet shop will provide more usable space or better fits. It depends entirely on the manufacturer you choose.
Most of what I do now is semi-custom. While you do have to work within each mfr's limitations, there are lots of choices in size and interior fittings, so I wouldn't rule them out where budget doesn't allow custom.
Most of my customers come to be armed with pictures from magazines of what they want in their kitchens as far as drawers, accessories, pull-outs, etc. And 95% of those pictures come from kitchens using semi-custom to custom manufactured cabinets.
We have a lot of shops around here selling what they think are "custom" cabinets, when they're just producing an average quality built-to-fit product. It definitely pays to investigate all the options out there.
It's been a while since I updated y'all on what's going on with the house. We took a long break to work on Burning Man art projects but we're back now.
So we went out and hired a super-fab kitchen designer and she showed us her super designs and well....we where under impressed! She missed super simple things like, oh look someone can't be sitting at the table while someone is cooking or trying to open the frig??? Wha???? She did uh, suggest two things that we are going to incorporate into our kitchen. Can you tell what they are from looking at the new super-fab diagram (with dimensions!!!) below?
View ImageWe got rid of the cabinet return against the south wall and we flopped the place for the fridge along the west wall. Now we have room for a prep sink!! Hurray!!! We also moved the stove off center on the south wall-but its still framed by windows.
View Image Here's the view from the kitchen door looking into the room. Nothing super fab diff here.
View Image Irene wants the cabinets along this will to have a different look than the rest of them. She wants them to look more like furniture which I think is a good idea. So, use your imagination here. Also we like how getting rid of the cabinet return here makes the room look less crowded and gives us more wiggle room for the table.
View Image Here's the view from the sun-porch door looking into the kitchen. We've decided that we are still going to go with a real corner sink. We just can't see wasting the space in the corner by using a regular sink there. We're just going to get a bigger sink than we had at our last house. This shot also shows the dishwasher....boy I wish we actually had a dishwasher...
View Image Here's the view from the north wall looking south. We like the oven offset to the right a bit as it gives us more room for cabinets in the opposite corner. It will be tight with the stove door down trying to walk by to get outside but we think it will be okay.
View Image Here's the view looking from the big windows at the fridge wall. Here you can see that we flipped the position of the fridge from our earlier designs. This makes total sense, giving us plenty of counter space on the side of the fridge and near the oven. On the right of the fridge is going to be a crazy angled tall pantry cabinet. It should be a good use of that weird space and give us somewhere to keep our mops and what-not.
Alright thats it for now. We are still trying to find a quality cabinet shop to build our cabinets for us and help with a little bit of the designing stuff-if they could install them to that'd be super-duper. We think we got the overall design nailed but we are going to need help with things like...should this be drawers, shelves, pull-out shelves, where we going to fit the recycling...stuff like that.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Hey there Daniel,
Well, what you've got looks pretty good, despite your super-duper designer's worst efforts. I'm really happy you decided against the wrap around on the wall opposite the range wall. People always want to do that, but it seldom looks good. I'm with Irene on the more decorative, furniture look for that area.
Since you're going wall-to-wall with cabinets, I'd take a look at some of the built-ins done in Craftsman houses and bungalows. There should be some ideas for creating that "separate" look. I have a copy of the Universal Millwork Catalog (Dover publishing) that has lots of good details for built-ins, doors and windows, etc.
The prep sink is a good idea, especially since the main sink area is so tight. That odd corner is a good place for storage. Check out Haefele North America for some pull-out innards for angled shapes. Do remember that your fridge will likely be larger than what's shown on your drawing, so double check all the space requirements there.
One caution about the window placement near the stove. You probably don't intend for the fit to be as tight as shown on the drawings, so this may not be applicable. Check your local codes for placement of windows near ranges; there may be some limitations you'll need to watch.
Also, you'll most likely not have the hood shown either, which is meant to go between 2 cabinets. The standard vent liner is meant to fit inside a 30"W x 18"D (+/-) hood enclosure allowing for 3/4" material. Your minimum size is going to be 30"; if you have crown moulding, that has to die somewhere so you'll need about 3" on each side for that. So what you'll really need for the hood and allowances is 36" between the window trims.
Even if you used a stainless hood, you'll still want a little "negative" space on either side. That breathing room will prevent the area over the range from looking like you forced it. Allow 30" +/- from the stove top to the underside of the hood for good clearance.
Now for some storage options:
The space to the right of the DW is good for a drawer stack. You can keep silverware and serving pieces, dish towels, etc. there. You might want to opt for 1 standard and 2 deeper drawers to better accommodate towels. You can get a drawer-and-a-half insert to help keep things organized. Since you are doing custom, you can opt for 2 shallow and 2 deeper drawers also.
Because of the depth of the sink, the space in its cabinet is probably best reserved for cleaning supplies, DW detergent, etc. The area between your sink and stove can accommodate your recycling/trash center with room left over for something else. You could do a 3-drawer base with f.e. glides or a cabinet with roll-outs that can hold a variety of things. To the right of the range I'd do deep drawers (f.e. glides) for pots and pans, baking dishes, etc. Because you have no overhead storage beside the range, try to fit at least one drawer with a spice insert for things you use while cooking. Rev-a-Shelf is a great resource for all sorts of trash/recycling inserts.
The refrigerator wall is your prep area. Things you will use there will be the food processor, mixer, blender, chopping board. You will be storing mixing bowls, some spices, flour/sugar, some baking dishes, etc. I don't put storage for trays, cookie sheets, pie pans, etc by the stove because you don't use them there. They only go to that area after you've prepared the food and put it in them, so it makes just as much sense to have them near the prep zone if possible. If you make the wall cabinet above the fridge as deep as the ref box, you can keep all those items and more up there and they'll still be accessible.
I also like big appliances off the counter and not eating up work area, so I usually recommend a mixer swing up with a roll-out below or just a cabinet with 3 roll-outs that will hold mixers, crock pots, etc. Make sure to orient the plumbing so that you can get a trash container below your prep sink. It's annoying to have to trudge across the traffic pattern with prep trash.
The micro is in a good location. It will be best if the center is at eye level, but that's not always possible. Be prepared to have it lower than the surrounding cabinets by a few inches or you'll be reaching up to unload it.
Wall cabinets there can accommodate bowls, big measuring cups, staples, spices, etc. I'm as happy with those little Rubbermaid lazy susans as with the pricey swivel add-ons. Leaves you with more options to change down the road.
Hope this helps!
Hi Susie thanks for replying we really do appreciate your help.
One caution about the window placement near the stove. You probably don't intend for the fit to be as tight as shown on the drawings, so this may not be applicable. Check your local codes for placement of windows near ranges; there may be some limitations you'll need to watch.
Yea I didn't mean for the windows to be so close that's mostly for visualization purposes not buildable plans.
I'll run the craftsman built-in idea past Irene but....she's pretty against using anything 'craftsman' in a Victorian house....I'll need to find some 'Victorian' built-in type furniture. She wants things that have legs or the appearance of legs.
Actually that fridge in the diagram is exactly the same size as ours same with the stove.
We are leaning towards cherry for the cabinets.... Do you think it would look super weird if we did a stranded-bamboo floor in the kitchen? Some of the lightly stained stranded bamboo floors look sorta like hickory...maybe...
I really like the idea of a tin ceiling and then using the same material as a backsplash between the upper and lower cabinets would that be too much you think?
thanks again,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
she's pretty against using anything 'craftsman' in a Victorian house
The thing about Victorian is that is encompasses a very long period of time and there are lots of overlaps of styles. I was thinking more of a blending of Eastlake and Craftsman/bungalow. The Universal book was published in 1927 and has some examples where you can see some Victorian and Craftsman influence in the bungalow style millwork. The good thing is that you should be able to find lots of examples in books and magazines to get you started.
I think you could get away with stranded bamboo if you're careful with the color. I've seen some pretty nice stains on bamboo recently. And you're not doing a restoration, so you're going to be incorporating modern finishes in the room. You could also consider linoleum, which has been around for a long time and could have been used in later Victorian houses. A black and white floor on the diagonal would look great with cherry cabinets, but may not be your style.
I don't particularly care for pressed tin as backsplash. I just think it's an idea whose time has come and gone and is beginning to look kitschy. And I have to admit that I also like tin ceilings painted, which probably makes some people shudder. I'm not a big fan of the Victorian style, but I grew up in a building with a beautiful painted tin ceiling and cornice and always loved that look.
I think that a subway tile or standard 4x4 tile accented with some mosaics or smaller tiles would make a better backsplash. It would probably take better to being cut around the window openings. There are also some really beautiful tiles with Victorian patterns available that would look super for a backsplash. Check out Meredith Art Tile for a start. They have a section of Victorian style, and there were some great designs there.
You could also use a true beadboard that you might take to 60-72" on the window wall except for the area behind the stove. Another option would be tongue & groove. These would be a little less desirable because of exposure to water and food stains. However, if you like the look there are tiles that will give you the same effect.
I saw some beadboard at Lowe's recently that had knots and imperfections, and I've been considering it as a backsplash myself. Not something I would have ordinarily chosen for the cottage/bungalow style I like, but it struck me that it could be good counterpoint to the simple white cabinets I prefer. It's good to just play what-if sometimes to let your mind stretch.
My only comment on the new design from the fab designer is that he or she could use a corner sink in the modeling toolkit.
Here is just one of many offered in Google's 3D Warehouse for Sketchup. And once in Sketchup, if you are using Sketchup's Pro version, the sink is exportable as a pattern or symbol or component (or whatever else your software calls it) to your design software package.
View Image
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Well Gene actually I did that drawing in a super simple $30 program thats several years old now called Floor Plan 3-D. I gave the designer .dwg versions of the plan so she could import it into Chieft Archetext and she couldnt figure out how to do it... I ended up sending her scaled pdf's instead which she still couldnt do anything with. After having the plans for 2 months we meet with her and all she's done is put tracing paper over my scaled drawings and done 3 doodles...none of which impressed us very much...specially since it had cost us $600...
I think floorplan can import .3ds symbols does that make sense to you? Could you send me a symbol version of that sink?
thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
FWIW, my gut reaction is to use corner cabinets where the main sink is, mostly to pull that sink out into the room a little...unless you're planning on incorporating a forehead rest into the wall cabs above it! :)
Yea I know that it looks tight but our last kitchen had essentially the same setup and it was fine. Never did bonk my head on the cab...unless the door was open....
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Mad,I too am not a big fan of the sink in the corner, but if it's something you are set on then who am I to disagree ;-).I have a few questions if you have the time.What's the ceiling height in the space? What's the deal with the windows on the exterior wall facing the back porch? What's the appl sizes you are going to use?Thanks.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Hi Joe,
Wow that render looks amazingly like the picture I have in my head. You must be using a fancier program than I. I like the cherry cabs and the crown molding and the glass front cabinets. I bet my wife is going to especially like the furniture styled wall of cabinets you got there.
We're not dead set on the corner sink it just seems like the best use of space for us. We definitely are still open to other ideas.
Here's the answers to your questions.
ceiling height = 10'microwave = 17.5"D by 24"W by 13"hFridge = 30"D by 36"W by 68"Hstove = 27.5"D by 36"W by 41"HToaster oven= 11"D by 16.5"W by 11"HThe two windows on either side of the stove are 22"W by 48"H-the deal with these windows is that we want some windows on this wall as this faces the backyard with the 'nice' view and this is our best idea so far....so your saying its not so great?
thanks for the render it looks pretty dang amazing.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dan,Here are a few more ideas you might like. Even though we are on different ends of the continent I'm sure I can help you get this worked out. I'm bored anyway ;-)http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com.
All I can say is wow!! I'm super impressed with what you've done. Okay I'm totally not looking a gift horse in the mouth but....
On elevation 1 how about: leave the cabinets you have there but put a second row on top and have the crown moulding up against the ceiling.
On elevation 2: Can you fancy up the corner cab a bit with furniture feet and have the top doors be the same cool art glass your using on the other cabs? Since we have 10' ceilings don't be afraid to go higher than normal with the cabs-I can't tell how high those are but going up to 8' might be nice.
On elevation 3: my wife is going to fricken love the cabs at the different levels. To her that spells 'Victorian'... Did you use the 36" wide stove model in that one? You've managed to fit a cabinet on the outside of the dishwasher how'd you do that?-Oh wait I just checked my plan and you just moved it closer to the sink... This elevation looks sensational except for one thing...no windows down low where we'd be able to see out...that's not going to fly with the wife I think.
thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dan,I'll make the changes you requested and post the results. I'm also going to work on another layout for the range wall with the windows as you show them. Are those windows installed yet?Also a note about the DW, I hate to move it close to a corner sink, but I hate to have it hanging at the end of the run of cabinets even more. So I made the DW a double draw type and if you like it there you should think about getting one. If not I'm afraid that it's much safer at the end of the run with a standard fold down door type, less of a trip hazard.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Thanks Joe!
The windows are not installed yet so that wall is still a bit of a blank slate...
Also, the wife loves the furniture wall of cabinets but she's concerned that bringing the uppers all the way down to the lowers has cut out too much counter top space. That counter was planned to be used by the toaster oven and coffee maker....
thanks again,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dan,Here are a few revisions:The first is I made all the cabinets to 8'I changed he range size to 36" and increased the hood, I like the massing. I also moved the DW out to the end of the cabinet run and added a center window. I also angled the corner cabinets to give you a chance to see which strikes your fancy, square or angle ;-)I changed the design for the china/hutch and brought the upper cabinets up to standard height to give you move countertop. I think I'd like to shorten the plate rack a bit as well.As far as going to the ceiling in a 10' space is concerned, I have no trouble doing it, but in the end it might not be the best investment of both the space and your money. With the kitchen laid out the way you might be envisioning it, it might well be within the 50 or 60 thousand dollar range for a customer cabinet maker. Just something to think about. . .http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 10/1/2008 11:48 am ET by Joe
Hi Joe,
I like that you shortened the cab over the sink less chance of boinking my head on it. The corner cabs there are interesting....they do stick out more over the sink.
One reason why we offset the stove is to give us usable counter space between it and the sink. Having the stove centered on the wall looks awesome but not sure how practical it will be. In the original plan we were envisioning 3 seperate prep areas- the stretch of counter over the dishwasher, the counter next to the prep sink and the counter between the stove and the sink...how wide is that sliver of counter in your diagram?
The hutch looks great. I think pushing the cabinets out to the 8' mark makes sense in such a tall room. What if you shortened the plate rack and then split it with bookshelves on the top and plates on the bottom? I can't exactly tell but do the cabs on either side of the plate rack extend out a bit? I think it would look good if they were a little bit deeper than the plate rack section.
On the fridge wall....yea another bank of cabs up high would significantly add to the cost. This house doesnt have a lot of storage so we lean towards going overboard I guess. $50-60,000 would be a lot....of course your version has a lot more cabinet than our orginal....
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Hi Dan,I got this thing about symmetry. . . That being said, things don't have to be that way. . .The angle cabinets are a look just like anything else. You see and "feel" the glass panels more then in a square corner. Yes they will protrude out a bit more and you'd feel them "more" as well while working at the sink, but, it's a look ;-)As far as counter spaces goes at the range, the more important aspect is that there is adequate "landing" space on each side of the range, basically a place to put things down, most times prep isn't done at the range. Also offsetting the range on the wall will pretty much remove the right side corner cabinets.Here are my concerns about placing an additional back of cabinets above the refrig wall. First and foremost is the whole symmetry thing, with the cabinets below being of different sizes width wise and at different depths they will in my opinion look "sloppy", but then again that's an opinion. Another issue is installing them to the ceiling with crown against the tin. Depending on the crown size and how off the ceiling is will determine the finally "usable size" of these cabinets and then, most importantly, if the ceiling isn't dead level, it will tell it to all who looks at it.Yes the hutch does have some wiggle in it ;-)http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe's the man for this stuff. How about installing corner windows to go with your corner sink? That gives you a view from the sink, keeps grease off the glass, and in the remaining wall Joe can satisfy his need for symmetry by centering the stove on the remaining wall, leaving you more prep space between the sink and the stove where it's most needed.
Windows in the corner will do a couple other things for you. Separating the upper cabinets will make them more "furniture-like." And, opening up the corner will make the room feel bigger--it's a design trick that if you can see the corner you register the room as being that big. With cabinets in the corner, you register the room being as big as the face of the cabinets.
I'd also suggest installing a single-bowl sink in an angled base cabinet. I've used the type pictured and they're fine, but it's nice to have a big bowl. You can push an angled base cabinet back from the face of the adjacent cabinets so you don't really give up any storage space.
Mike,Those are some good suggests and I was working my way around to the angle corner base cabinet if Dan and his wife liked the angled uppers. No reason to spent time drawing it if it wasn't going to fly ;-).Changing the sink to a standard corners was also in the works once Dan told me he'd like a bit more counter space between the sink and range. But before I started any of that I wanted to start a design with some windows for a view ;-)http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Nice! One of these days I'm going to have to bug you for more information. Our design office uses 2D Autocad, and I'm just getting around to learning Sketchup, but I really think we should be putting out stuff like you are. This is a good example of how much difference a decent rendering makes in being able to visualize being in a space.
Thanks Mike.Any time you want to shoot the breeze feel free to drop me a line.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
yea we are not against the angled upper and lower cabs in that corner...heck we really arent against anything at this point....well except what the wife doesnt like.
Really like the fridge wall and the buffet wall-wife really wants a bookshelf to share the space that you have the plate racks in.
Still not convinced about the stove on the center of that wall...sorry...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dan,No reason to be sorry. . . Like I always say, "that's why it's called design", everyone has different tastes and likes.This last layout is what I think you are looking for and there is a net gain of 9" in additional counter space between the sink and range.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Dang this looks so boring compared to your other renders....design_03 That wall next to the door looks so plain and boring now....dang.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dan,There are two concessions on this latest layout, the range is 30". This is so because of the hood. The hood needs to extend a bit past the range on both side or at the very minimum be aligned with its edges as not to create a fire hazard. I didn't explore alternate hood designs but it might be possible to still use a 36" range but my gut feeling is it may impact the look of the hood and massing of the space.Second is that the windows are 18" wide as opposed to 22" as in your plan. If you decide on shrinking the hood you will be able to increase the window size.Lastly, the three windows at the top are optional ;-)http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
There are two concessions on this latest layout, the range is 30". This is so because of the hood. The hood needs to extend a bit past the range on both side or at the very minimum be aligned with its edges as not to create a fire hazard. I didn't explore alternate hood designs but it might be possible to still use a 36" range but my gut feeling is it may impact the look of the hood and massing of the space.
Second is that the windows are 18" wide as opposed to 22" as in your plan. If you decide on shrinking the hood you will be able to increase the window size.
Lastly, the three windows at the top are optional ;-)
Cheater!!!, Cheater!!!
Unfortunately we already own the stove so 36" is what we've got to work with... The hood can be as exactly as wide as the stove and it works fine we had the same setup at our last place. Though I agree that its better for the hood to be slightly wider than the stove.
Not married to the hood style in my original drawing its just the only option on the cheapo program I was using...
Windows... I was planning on using the Marvin Integrity line and the thinnest they make in a double hung is 22"-but I'm not married to that line either. We were playing around and put in 6' by 22" double hung windows on either side of the stove and it didnt look to weird....at least to us.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Hi Joe,
Can you send us more angles of this view Elev 3c. We'd like to see the cabinets over by the door if we could.
We like this idea better than ours. Now ours (the last render you did) looks kinda boring and plain.....
thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dan,Here's another shot of the hutch.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe, could I bother you to make a revision of the sink/range view?
Switch the range and sink. Put a corner hood over a diagonal cooktop, and a soffitted window over the newly placed sink. Uppers to fill, matching the hood detail on the opposite corner. The glass doored uppers to be by the reefer. A farmer's sink. One that has the exposed front.
The hutch has to have that hip bruiser rounded off.
Try a floor of light buff colored travertine. Maybe matching backsplash?
I'm not against a regular sink on an angle in that corner just want to make sure it doesnt eat up to much space. I like your idea of pushing it back into the corner more.
I'm not sure corner windows would fly out here in earthquake country. If I understand what you are saying. Do you mean that the actual corner of the wall would be window? Or just two windows butted up to the corner? For shear strength reasons I'm pretty sure thats a non-starter around here.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
A 4x4 post in the corner, jacks on either side. Then a 3' wide slider on each side. You need that wide of a window to easily reach the edge of the slider to open it towards the center post. Casements or others would be too difficult to operate.
Then a soffit overhead with cans lighting the work area. Lace curtains do wonders.
I did this layout in San Juan Capistrano a few years back. BI had no question.
Edited 10/1/2008 6:23 pm by peteshlagor
FWIW -
If you are already familiar with a corner sink, I am a big fan of them in a space limited situation.
Really open up useable countertop runs.
I have one and have grown to actually love it.
People who don't have them question them - people who have them don't.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
True corner windows are interesting, but I meant two regular windows pushed against a corner post. We usually use casements over sinks but the sliders Pete mentioned would work well. I like to run cabinets up to the ceiling in high-ceiling Victorians, with a nice tall but simple crown molding.
Mike,I thought I work up something quickly to show Dan what you were talking about having the windows in the corner. You'd still need to play with the scale of the windows, but I just set them to match the height of the other windows in the space.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Well I like it!
Mike,I'm sure you would, isn't funny how we always like your own designs ;-). I like it as well, but I can almost bet that 50% of the people who look at it wont. Notwithstanding good or bad designs, but any one design will, on average be liked by about 50% of the people who look at it and disliked by the other 50%. . . That's been my take on it over the last 17 years. . .http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com.
I'm sure you would, isn't funny how we always like your own designs ;-). I like it as well, but I can almost bet that 50% of the people who look at it wont.
I'm glad the wife and I are pretty in tune with these sorts of things...man it would blow if we were exactly out of phase.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dan,I'd hate to be thought of as a "cheater" ;-), So I reworked the design. It now has the 36" range and 21" windows. The hood just makes the space and looks good in my opinion. The only thing would be checking the corbels.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I'd hate to be thought of as a "cheater" ;-), So I reworked the design. It now has the 36" range and 21" windows. The hood just makes the space and looks good in my opinion. The only thing would be checking the corbels.
That looks pretty great....Like the corner sink and the corner cab above it. I'll have to talk it over with the wife and see if we can live with losing the prep space between the stove and be okay with it being moved over to the other side. I like to have a sink near my prep areas...in this version how much counter space is between stove and the sink?
Love the plate rack...now if you could just make those plates be 'Franklin Mint Original Star Trek commemerative plates' that would be awesome...
How wide is your trim on those windows? I can see that possibly being an issue also.
thanks again,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Looks good, but the fridge is kinda a "bull in a china cabinet".
Here's our newest idea...
But Wait, One More Kitchen Design Iteration
So we went to a cabinet shop on Saturday and they look pretty good and their prices were pretty great so we are trying to zoom in on a final kitchen design....for real this time.View ImageHere's the newest version of the kitchen plans with dimensions. Turns out we didn't have all the dimensions of the appliances right... Our microwave is waaaay huger than the one we had in originally. Turns out we need 6'-6" for our table and chairs and built in benches idea.
Here's the rendered birds-eye view. Don't know what this tells you but it looks pretty I guess.
Here's the view looking towards the south wall. Like that nice big window looking out into our backyard. You can see the dishwasher and the third window also. We will probably not do the small french doors opting for a regular door like we put in downstairs.
Here's the view looking back at the fridge and china cabinet. The cabinet over the fridge is going to be 'fridge depth' but we are going to recess the fridge into the wall 4" so that its basically cabinet depth. The upper cabs to the left we are going to make 18" deep, the depth of the MW and bring them down pretty close to the counter. We plan on having a lazy susan in the corner cab and this is where most of our dry goods will be stored.
Here's a shot standing way back in the hallway and looking into the kitchen. We were worried that the fridge would stick out to far but I think it looks okay. Remember that the china cabinet on the left is recessed into the wall a bit so it makes the fridge look like its sticking out more than it is.
Here's a shot looking at the stove wall. Now, with the MW gone all the cabinets to the left of the stove can be for our daily dishes-cups-plates-etc. We are probably going to nix the shelves to the right of the stove in lieu of another regular cabinet. Irene thinks that we can fit all of our pots and pans in the two base cabs on either side of the stove. That means no more pot rack which is probably a good thing. Also we are not going to do the cabinets all the way to the ceiling we think.
That's it for now let us know what you think will ya?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I thought I work up something quickly to show Dan what you were talking about having the windows in the corner. You'd still need to play with the scale of the windows, but I just set them to match the height of the other windows in the space.
Yea I don't like it so much. We know that we need at least those two cabs on that wall/corner to hold all of our dishes.
Here's a shot of our old kitchen with the corner sink and a window next to it and the cabinets above it.
View Image
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 10/2/2008 7:39 pm by madmadscientist
Yea I know that it looks tight but our last kitchen had essentially the same setup and it was fine. Never did bonk my head on the cab...unless the door was open....
Oh good then, it's no doubt one of those things that looks different on paper than in person.
I just got off my butt and went into the kitchen and pretended the sink was under a wall cab in the corner...and I see what you mean. It's not as tight as one might think.
1. Time for a new designer. Swallow the experience and find another.
2. Although the upper cabinet may not be in your way, much time is spent at the sink. I've never had one that didn't have a window over. One of my most successful kitchens had the sink in the corner, but with 48" wide sliders in each side. Overlooked the patio, pool and flower gardens.
3. Some of your upper cabs need glass doors. A designer glass, perhaps leaded into a special pattern meaning something to your wife. Glasss shelves and halogen pucks from above on dimmers. You put fancy glasses and china here. And things you want your guests to see.
4. No glass doors next to the stove. Or windows. The greasey smoke about will making cleaning a nightmare.
5. Good to have the stove against an outside wall.
Hi Pete,
1. Yea we've decided this also. We don't think we need a designer anymore. I'm hoping that which ever cab shop we go with will have a designer that can help us with the final tweaking of the layout.
2. Yea the view out the back wall the stove is on is really the only nice view we've got...what if I moved the window closer to the sink? Our last house had essentially the same set-up with a window off to the side and it was nice enough.
3. Yea look at Joe's render of the 'furniture' like wall of cabs looks pretty nice with the glass fronted doors.
4. Dang I know its not ideal cleaning wise but we really want windows on this wall and can't figure out any other way to do them...got any ideas?
5. Yes only thing I'm not sure about is that if we vent the stove straight out it will vent into the stairway back there...don't know if thats a good idea or not...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I haven't read all the replies, so don't know what everyone is suggesting, but if this is going to be your permanent K, I'd tend to think that it feels a bit cramped. Don't you have like 3 or 4 floors with bookoo sq ft'age? Could you eliminate that BR and turn it all into K/DR? Let the sun shine through what used to be BR wall. Be a nice, roomy space without changing anything on the OUTSIDE of the house (other than vents and such).
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
Easy to make large spaces on the PC. :)
View Image
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
Ha yea we were just talking about that yesterday... Unfortunately the house is not super huge. Half of the bottom floor is garge-parking then bedroom, bath, laundryroom. The middle floor is family room, a more formal room, a bath, ktichen, bedroom. Top floor is MB, MBath, Den-nursery...
Yea that sounds kinda ridiculous calling a 3 floor house not huge but you gotta remember its a victorian so its long and narrow and the top floor is attic so not as much room as you'd think.
I do like the idea of turning that bedroom into kicthen but then where will the kid sleep? and where will our guests sleep? If the place had just one more bedroom....
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
How big is the attic? Kids would enjoy a custom space. And you REALLY need something else on your To-Do list. ;)
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
I assume that table is your only dining space? Are you trying to keep with the architectural style of the house? I can't say for sure, but I think we could sell and install that kitchen with brookhaven cabinets for less than that quote. Too bad we are a continent apart. Maybe tomorrow I'll take a crack at a design for you. I've got some ideas but I need to get on my other computer and put in "on paper"
Hi and thanks for replying,
Yes that is our only dining space unfortunately. The house is Victorian and we are trying to make the new kitchen not be jarringly different. We can not be slaves to real Victorian style cause I'm never ever going to paint quality woodwork!!!
Hey we could design it all online and on phone as long as you trust my measurements!!!
Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I do like the idea of turning that bedroom into kicthen but then where will the kid sleep? and where will our guests sleep? If the place had just one more bedroom....
Is the attic not able to be converted to living space? God knows I've been in enough houses that had that done...
Jason
'Attic' is already living space it was built that way. That's where the master bed and bath are (going to be its gutted now) and where the den-nursery is.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Now there's a space to get your creative juices flowing!
Would that we could translate the construction process as easily as the drawing process.
Hi Susie, here's a render of what our current fav design is,
View Image
We took your advice and pushed the stove away from the sink. The sink is an issue I don't like cutting the corner like that but we want a bigish sink in there. Why don't they make sinks in more shapes? How about a triangular sink? Or a double bowl with an L shape to fit in the corner?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 7/14/2008 11:13 pm by madmadscientist
ask Stan to put in a stair case for ya...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Don't think I haven't thought about it. One of his beautiful winders going from the sunporch to the bottom floor...so much better than an Iron Shop spiral...think he can hitch one to his gyrocopter and fly it out here?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
have him send it to you in kit form...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think it looks good - kind of a combination of all the drawings you've gotten from everyone. The nice thing about the plan is that, if you actually can do the bump-out in the future, you can add an island to increase the prep space if you like.
Do watch the clearance for the oven door and don't let it get too close to the cabinet left of the fridge. If you can leave a little walk-around space there it would be good.
I think you'd find a triangular sink would be a pain to work in. However, if you want a double bowl with an "L" arrangement, you should be able to find those from Elkay in stainless steel. Don't know if you'll find it in an undermount, if you're considering quartz or stone tops.
That render makes the distance look way smaller than it it. Its 3.5' so that shoudl be fine?
If we don't cut the corner for the sink how do you fit a decent sized sink in that spot?
We were thinking somethign like a pull out with big beefy full extension slides where we could put the trash-recycling-green-waste in there. That would make use of that big deep corner.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Daniel,
The drawings I sent you show a corner sink cabinet that's 42" on each wall, which should let you fit a standard 33x22 sink in that spot. As I mentioned, I was guessing at the placement of the window beside the DW, so you'll have to verify that dimension.
You can reduce that dimension to 39" if need be, but if it gets any smaller then you will need to reduce the sink size or the bowls are going to end up in the drawers of the adjacent cabinets. If space is really tight, then I'd consider a single 25" sink with a deep bowl.
For an angled sink NKBA guidelines recommend a clearance of 21" from the center of the sink to the edge of the DW door to assure that you can move around without banging into the door while loading. From your original drawing it looked like you'd have enough space to be close to that dimension. It's not a perfect world, tho, so do the best you can there.
There are lots of pull-out storage ideas, and a recycle center there would be great. You'll find a lot of standard products at rev-a-shelf.com and some very good ideas for customized units in the Taunton kitchen design book.
Speaking of customization, you want to make sure, especially where space is limited, that every cabinet functions for the storage it's supposed to provide. No more standing on your head to get a pot that's on the half shelf in the back of the base cabinets. Whatever's in that cabinet needs to be easily gotten to by means of deep drawers, swing outs, roll-outs, etc. From your drawing, it looks like you are a fan of drawers. I do a lot more of them in the kitchens now because people like the accessibility.
Do be sure that you get quality slides for your drawers. I'd opt for full-extension on everything, but that can get expensive if you're doing something like a Blumotion. At the very least you'll want F.E. on silverware and drawers that will hold pots, pans, bulky items, etc.
Hi Susie,
I do like drawers but really those should be viewed as place holders and we still have yet to decide whats going to be drawers and whats going to be doors etc,
Here's an overhead shot without the weird fisheye effect.
View Image
For scale the distance between the stove and the cabinet is almost 3.5'
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 7/17/2008 1:07 am by madmadscientist
Looks good. You now have a workable, if not perfect, plan. However, we live in the real world, so no plan is ever perfect. But you do have better storage now and less conflict between your work zones.
Now you can start working on where you want to put things. Remember the principle of first use - plan to store things where you will use them, not where you think they'll fit.
Keep us posted!
If that room is already framed, get some boxes or other stuff and simulate your layout. Get the table in there if practical to do so. Invite a few people over to get a feel for the space.
Your current layout is probably the best possible option for the limited space, but if the space turns out to be too tight, better to find out now than after you've finished it.
Tuesday while working on a water line, I managed to kink a PEX line. It has been nagging at me ever since. Finally decided last night to replace that section. What will cost me a few minutes and a couple bucks to do now would be substantially more expensive if that kinked spot were to start to leak inside the wall onto the finished floors (and replacing it will also keep it from nagging at me).
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
I need to go back and read the whole thread, but WOW that birds eye view makes it look rather snug. I have a similar problem with my project house... one fairly small room has to function as the k and dr. And there are 3 entrances and a walk way on one side. Kind of leaves you scratching your head and wishing you had another 10' or so. But I don't have anywhere to bump to.
I can't tell from the pic, is there room for the window side chair to scoot in and out?
I guess the K layout really just depends on your lifestyle. For some folks it is just a stopping point for a few mins on the way to other parts of the house. While for other people, it is the center of life in the house. If you're "kitchen people" who like to entertain in the K, IMO that space is too cramped for more than 4 people. If you're more about just preparing the food in the K, but having company on the deck or by the firepit, or in the LR... then the K is just fine. All about lifestyles.
My Alzheimers is kicking in... that isn't the original K location? Hereabouts the old Vics tend to have very cramped K's, but typically have formal DR's and often a pantry. jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
Hi John,
This is the area of the original kitchen with a couple walls skootched a little bit.
This 'over head' shot has serious fish eye going on. To get a sense of scale the distance between the stove and that cabinet is ~3.5'.
We are kitchen people and making this kitchen really usable and livable is our goal...tired to talk the wife into your idea last night but she's resisting.. Says Victorian houses don't have fracking great rooms...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Something that has been hard to get through my thick skull is the difference between "possible" and "practical". Just about anything is possible, but it often isn't practical. I'm someone who leans towards the "possible" frame of mind, but from years of limited budgets and time contraints, I have been forced into trying to learn "practical".
So in my case, it is POSSIBLE to expand the K/DR into the garage and then just create a new garage.... but it isn't practical to do so. I would never get my $$ back out of that and don't really want to jump the project up the amount of $$ it would require.
Realistically, I suspect that the only way I can keep the "possible" clamped down is that I keep telling myself that the current project house isn't going to be my "forever" house, so I don't HAVE to maximize it to my likings. I'd be in danger in your situation.
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
I should have read the rest of the other replies becasue alot of my ideas have already been taken. How low do the windows on the east wall go? Did you say 18" from the floor? I have a few low windows in my kitchen like that(not that low though) and I lowered the cabinets under that bank of windows. My boss who has been in the kitchen business for 38 years fought me tooth and nail on that, but I did it any way. I used a marble top on those cabinets, and my wife uses if for baking. She loves it. it also makes a great landing for bags of groceries, and it's still all useable counter space. My boss swears it looks bad but that just becasue he can't admidt I was right. It's centered on the wall, so it looks like it belongs there. But then again, 18" is way too low. I used vanity cabinets. If your windows were far enough off the floor, that would free up that entire wall for cabinet/counter space and you could push your table to the other side of kitchen.
The windows on the east wall go low 18" is the bottom of the trim. We will probably but a bench seat there with maybe a lift up top with some storage underneath but cabinets no way unfortunately...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Maybe you've already considered this elsewhere, but you'd gain some usable space just by putting the short end of the table against the wall between the windows and placing the chairs, two to a side, on the long edges of the table. Then no one has to sit with her back to the window and no one has to look into the sun.
Edited 7/15/2008 2:34 pm by splintergroupie
Maybe you've already considered this elsewhere, but you'd gain some usable space just by putting the short end of the table against the wall between the windows and placing the chairs, two to a side, on the long edges of the table.
That's a good idea or we could just get a table with a leaf and have smaller square table which would do us for 90% of the time...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Did you already reject this kind of sink? It allows the cabinets to either side to be longer than the sink you have drawn allows.http://www.1stforkitchens.co.uk/cda/sinks/CCP2.jpg
Edited 7/17/2008 1:49 am by splintergroupie
Wow I really like that corner sink with the built-in drainboard.
We had a similar sink without the built-in drainboard at our last place.
Truthfully thats my first choice but my SO thinks that the two individual sinks like that are going to be too small. The bowls on our last sink were on the small side so washing a cookie sheet was a PITA. If the bowls were big enough I'd be all for it.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer