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Please help!!! I am about to spend many $$$$ on custom windows and patio doors for a bungelow on the shore in Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia. High winds and driving rains are frequent visitors. Very little snow this year, but some years its 8 feet in 2 weeks. I need to know about the wisdom of insisting on Krypton instead of Argon gas. Please help!!!
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The quality of the window and the seals that hold in the gas is much more important than if it contains krypton or argon. Either is better than dry air.
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Krypton will Superman proof the bungelow. Are you sure you want to do that ?
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Gilly Bear,
Argon, krypton, anybody who says either one is worth the money is dead wrong. You won't save enough energy to pay for the difference.
Buy the best damn windows you can get and leave it at that. Go see Janet at Polytech, tell her I sent you and you won't go wrong, there isn't a better window in Cape Breton.
*A bit of heat transfer trivia: The reason krypton transfers less heat than argon is that it is a bigger atom. Its "mean free path" (average distance between collisions) is shorter and so the heat doesn't get quite as long a ride between collisions. Either are a better than dry air. Oxygen and nitrogen have higher heat capacities so each atom carries more BTU's per trip. Their heat capacities are higher because they are diatomic molecules - like little dumbells - so there are two axises about which they can spin and store energy.This all works in the other direction too. When divers use helium mixtures to avoid the bends, they get colder. The long mean free path of helium causes both the squeaky, mickey-mouse voice and the greater heat loss.For comparison: thermal conductivities (in watts/meter/degreeC): Krypton: 0.0100, Argon: 0.0177, Air: 0.0262, helium: 0.15, water vapor: 0.61. So Krypton is about as much better than argon as argon is better than air. Note how high the conductivity of water vapor is. That's why it is more important that the windows stay sealed than which gas they originally contain.Pulling out those old Chem Eng books,David
*Good info David.In theory, krypton should leak slower because of the atom size. All other things being equal.
*Krypton is where Superman is from. Argon I'm not familiar with.On the bigger atom theory, does this mean xenon would be better than krypton? And radon the best of all? Ignore all the window-seller doublespeak and focus on what you need, it's hard to recover the cost of the really expensive "energy savers" in energy costs. Nova Scotia is reasonably mild, isn't it?View ImageNeat: UK browsable periodical chart
*Gilly, From all the technical stuff I've read, you'll have to wait a long time for the stuff to pay off. Longer than any one expects it to stay in the glass. Gabe is right. Buy good windows & forget it.
*10 years until it's gone I think -- what about the "heat mirror" "low-E" "triple glazing" and so on? Great features, silly ones, and so on?
*Andrew: A good reference, that periodic table. Found some errors, but mostly good info. Yes, Xenon would be better yet (0.0056 thermal conductivity) but is even rarer in the atmophere (0.08 ppm) than Kr (0.3 ppm). Radon would be better still (0.0036) but only for a day or two. It's half life is 4 days! As it decomposes to non-gases, a vacuum would develop and the window would implode in a week. Unless you had a house with a radon problem. Suck it out of the basement and pipe it into the window. Good thermal insulation and you'd get a suntan by standing next to it.
*Unless you have a choice in the same window, you should look for how well it keeps out drafts, how easy is it to clean, its total R value, how well it holds up, how it looks etc. I often choose Marvin Integrity because it seems a good balance of features and cost. I especially like how well the pre-finished fiberglass exterior holds paint if I want a color other than what it comes in. By the way, it is two low-e layers and argon gas.
*Morning Andrew,For what it's worth, No manufacturer has to be able to guarantee the exact amount of any gas in their respective windows. No consumer has the equipment to monitor or test a windows compliance for gas content. In the 24 different samples submitted by manufacturers for quality testing at the NRC, none were of greater quality in overall performance. The use of "Low-E" is one that I observed in testing to be beneficial but to what degree is debattable. I personally use them. I was able to visually see the difference between Low-E and standard in long term testing at the NRC.Triple glazing is a gimmick. The use of 2 6mm sections of glass spaced as far apart as allowable will equal or surpass any triple glazing unit on the market todate.
*The windows might be great; watch the installation (hate to sound like a broken record, Gabe). Adrian, in Mira
*This is a very expensive window, though, right?Are the low-e layers visible in any way? Do they cause any discoloration of diffraction etc.?
*IT seems to me that the differences between gasses between panes is a small one at best. The line of windows I deal with the most has a normal r-factor of 2.5 on average. With the addition of low-e glass and argon gas, it raises the r-factor to 3.5. Bear in mind this is a combination of the gas and glass giving you an r-1 diference. In your case where it is just different gasses, I would expect to see much diference in anything other than the price.Check out the differences in r-values and see for yourself.Pete Draganic
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Actually, Marvin's Integrity line is marketed as a "builder's window" -- it comes in a limited selection of sizes, two or maybe three colors at the most, and one choice of hardware. It only comes in low-E argon filled. It is not particularly expensive.
And no, the samples I've seen don't show any distortion or color shift.
*Ok ... Ok There is as much difference between Krypton and Argon as there is between argon and air. Next question is ... so what is the difference between between air and Argon? In layman's terms please. I really appreciate all the help that I am getting here. Monday is my deadline for ordering. Thanks Gabe for your reccomendation to polytech. I intend to place the order there. And are there any "special" things that I need to know about installation?
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Mr Bear,
To me it's a question of money at this point....If it cost a few hundred more and the total budget for windows is in the thousands, then I would by the best and sleep well at night...Not taking any moneyto the grave and I like buying less of the best.
Near the stream,
J
*... though the gas may be no more than bells and whistles, especially considering its short lifespan. Put the extra money and effort into insulating elsewhere -- a couple thousand cash can buy a couple thousand cubic feet of cellulose for R-200 walls.... Buy quality windows THAT DON'T LEAK (air or water -- for your high winds and driven rain). Foam, caulk and flash them cracks. Put up warm curtains during those long winter nights. Figure how many years it will be before you even break even on those fancy windows (years after the gas has escaped) and then buy some extra firewood instead...
*Pure Argon is more dense than air and when placed between the glass, through a small hole in the glazing at the top of the lite, will displace all of the air and moisture between the glass. Assuming no leaks and you use dry gas to start, you should then eliminate any possible fogging of the window. But how many times do you find windows that are fogged up because of a slow leak of the original gas supplied by the manufacturer?
*Good evening Gilly,When you rough out for the windows, remember that there is both a nailing flange on the outside of the window, and a required spacing for the drywall insert.Leave 5/8" sides and top. If you use the drywall insert on the bottom instead of the sill insert, you will need 5/8" there too.You can get away with 1/2", but if you make the slightest error, you will have trouble with the insert later on.Remove the sash assembly, slide in the nailing flange and tape the corners together so that they don't slip out as your handling the window. Put a silicone bead around the window's outside edge, under the flange area, put in the window, pop in 2 nails, check your level and plumb,install the window sash, check to see that it operates clean, nail the hell out of it afterwards. Put your tuck tape over the flange to seal the whole window and all should be fine.
*This seems like the right place to ask questions about installing windows. I have a 45 year old house in which I am replacing windows. I would like to install windows with a pre-finished exterior, but I have a stucco exterior and I don't want to have to cut out the stucco to allow for a nailing flange; as a result I think I am forced to go with wood frame windows and painting. This does not bother me too greatly as I have no problem getting good adhesion with quality paint and I don't have to do it all that often (7 years on the last paint job and still going strong).Is there some way of installing fibreglass or other pre-finished windows without hacking out the stucco and being left with a mess/cover-up? Am I missing something here? I know Pella had some snap on moldings which were designed to cover up just such a mess, but I was never very impressed with the quality of their finished product (understatement).
*Morning Simon,The window istallation I was discussing with G.Bear was for Polytech Tilt and Turn windows and they come with a monolethic brick mold. The nailing flange slides into a dovetail grouve in the casing, so it doesn't have to be installed. I guess, in your case, by simply cutting out the existing window, you could slip in this type, without the flange and the brick mold would cover the irregular cut seam on the side of the return of your stucco.After this point you would just foam in the window gaps and you should have a good seal.Maybe the other guys can help you more, Good luck with your project.
*... can't help but make a plug for low-expansion foam here, the stuff Freddy was promoting in a recent FHB ... EFI in Mass. sells it.Any chance you could replace just the sash?
*Anybody used the Latex foam yet? It may cause less of a problem than even the low expanding foam.
*I worried it wasn't sturdy enough. Pleasant to work with though, and if you want to stick your hands in foam, use the latex. Really, this PUR fill poly stuff is terrific.
*Haven't I heard that the use of foam to install windows can void manufacturer's warranties?Replacing just the sash is a possibility; the problem is they always end up looking like replaced sashs. I prefer to have the job looking like new, but as though it had never been touched - if you know what I mean. I don't like people walking by and seeing from across the street that it is only 1/2 a job.Another thought: If the payback period is so long for gas filled sealed units, why do the manufacturers only guarantee their sealed units against leakage for 5 years; are they saying they are a better insulator which will take many years to pay back, but you had better make them pay back in 5 years or you have wasted your money. This sounds like a hell of a business to be in!
*Gilly: I calculated the difference for my house (2000 square feet, 20 square meters glazing, 20F average difference between the panes, half the year). I got energy costs for air-filled as $55 and for argon-filled as $37 for an annual savings of $18. (conduction through center of window, not any other losses or heat demands). $18 would amortize a 30-year loan for about $215. -David
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Please help!!! I am about to spend many $$$$ on custom windows and patio doors for a bungelow on the shore in Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia. High winds and driving rains are frequent visitors. Very little snow this year, but some years its 8 feet in 2 weeks. I need to know about the wisdom of insisting on Krypton instead of Argon gas. Please help!!!