I forward laminate counters to the professionals becuase I have always had problems triming the laminate where it meets the wall. However, a friend in need is a friend in deed so I agreed to do a counter for his wife.
I have been told to use a file to finish the last inch or so where the counter meets a wall ect.. Is this the best method? The counters I have done usually shred/ chip with a file. Further, I a bearing piloted flush trim bit better for edge trimming than the traditional cheapy guide point laminate bit. I greatly appreciate any input!
Thanks
Replies
It's been a while since I have done this but I used to do a ton of it in and out of the shop with any and all varieties of lams' ( highgloss and the textures).
Sounds like you are doing field work and laminating. In cabinet and hardwood supply stores they have a plastics file with a fine and a coarse side and one fine cut edge. They are almost exactly like the ones you see in Lowe's and Hmdpto. They have a handle shape at one end for holding. The special plastic one is just a better cut configuration, made specially for plastics (don't ruin it by using it on metals as that makes it less effective on the lams'), than the others and works and cuts a bit better (read faster/less effort).
These both will work. I would use a Japanese toothed saw to cut it a bit closer to the edge, carefully to avoid the wall and chipping at the top side, then you can file the rest very easily. Use the coarse side to get close, then the finer side to finish (carefully when you get on the edge, and watch your filing angle....just a bit of angle). When you have it right on, use the fine side to take off the sharp feel of the edge, lay the file on the semi sharp edge on about a 45 degree and just lightly, very lightly, take the sharpness off, just a touch is all that's needed. It should look sharp but not feel that way to the hand.
Hopefully you will be able to use a spraygrade contact cement as it always holds so well and binds edges fantastically, masking a bit is all that's needed with a painter's masking machine with tape and a small paper roll....it's the way to go.
Edited 3/3/2006 9:37 pm ET by zorrosdens
Thank you. Sounds like I have a poor quality file. Also, I like your suggestion on the Japenese saw!
I have been told that the spray adhesive is a vey costly setup. I have and do very little laminate work so do you know a cheap spray method?
Which trim bit do you like, the bearing guided or pilot point?
Thanks again.
I've done just about everything you could do to a countertop and with laminates, messing up and all (the feeling you get from shooting a pin or worse thru the counter or over screwing from the underside of the counter, no to mention alllll the cabinet laminating, is a horrible one). The self pilots are ok for trimming with the self pilot on a non laminated edge or such but for running on a laminated surface I always liked a bearing bit that wasn't a straight cutter. The ones I use are specially for laminate and have a slight angle to the cutter so as you lower the bit's adjusted depth of cut the cut gets closer to the other piece you are cutting to. Only if you are a perfect laminator would I take it right to the other piece...I would usually final tune the edge with a swipe or two of the file, watching when the edge got right and felt that way, too. You can use a straight cutter if you run a piece or two masking tape on the edge you plan to bearing on and adjust the cutter only to the needed cut depth (not long)...this will route a bit "off" the edge you finish to...just DON'T let your router tip for ANY reason, or it will get into the edge and you can mess up.
Laminate is an animal unto itself, almost everyone who has done much will file "burn" into the color once and more on occasion. It takes a "feel" and a precise hold of the file angle while you finish the edges and joints....it's where the rubber meets the road in laminating.
Also, don't let a speck or crumb of anything get under your laminate. Cleanlyness is god here and wipe with your hand and then blower things too....your hand feels all. Little pimples just never seem to go away no matter how you take a block and hammer to it.
And, for large pieces, use a few dowels or sticks (CLEAN ONES) to space under your piece till you line up, then remove one at a time while you work it. Laminate surface rollers are a good thing, too.
If you purchase a new file from Lowe's or such with that handle incorporated in it you'll be fine....files you have done metalwork with will be at least a bit dull, so they'll feel "wrong"....that's why when I got the special file I made sure I didn't become complacent and file some metal, even when it was the closer and handier file.
And when you laminate one piece, trim, and then want to laminate it's edge, or that type of two piece operation; when you trim the first piece with your router, FLAT file that cut to clean any roughness to that surface that will receive the next piece of laminate on that edge. Use the coarse side of the file and don't "over do it", just get it basically flat
Edited 3/3/2006 10:25 pm ET by zorrosdens
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Edited 3/5/2006 2:53 pm ET by zorrosdens
Obviously, from all the edits, things kept coming back to me and I didn't want to leave out those little, but important, things.
Edited 3/3/2006 10:49 pm ET by zorrosdens
Your info helps tremendously and also makes me feel human for the mistakes I have made laminating.
Last question, I like the masking tape idea for a flush trim bit but like your idea of the use of a tapered bit better. I have used the cheapy type of pilot point bits that are slightly beveled. I still got some "bite marks" along front edge of counter using this bit. Any chance you remember the actual bit brand and number you used? Whiteside, Freud ect...?
Edited 3/4/2006 8:29 pm ET by CINDIR
Hate to say it but it's been a long time since I had hands on laminating. The brand does not really matter just look into a good carbide....all the self pilots i used to use were solid carbides...not HSS. They make a tapered self pilot, too.
Check into a cabinet supply store or the internet......good luck.
Thank you so much, my friend will owe you a milkshake and hopefully I wont owe him a bottle of laminate repair.
Now...I LOVE a good vanilla milkshake...Thanks!
Hi,
You should have a laminate-only lip (no substrate) at the top of the backsplash.
What I do is scribe the laminate lip to the wall profile, then carve to the line with a belt sander.
E
<then carve to the line with a belt sander.>and i'll add that the belt sander is spinning down,to keep laminate from chippingor is that so "obivious" I didn't need to comment?
butch , You can run a strip of masking tape on the top edge of the laminate . Hold it to the wall and scribe a line onto the tape or lam . The belt sander held front up and on a slight angle grinding narrower at the bottom will produce chip free results as accurate as your line is .
dusty
efix2, butch & notDusty,You are addressing a different situation than the OP. They are not inquiring about scribing a postform laminate counter to fit a wavy wall. They just need to trim off the last bit of overhanging laminate in an on-site custom lamination (where the router hits the wall before the bit does).probably goes without saying, an off-set base laminate triming router helps...as would laminating the substrate before installing. Those options are probably out, in this case, Zorro has it covered.
Thank you for the tip.
Maybe someone posted it & I didn't catch it, so this may double what somone said allready.
When doing counter tops instead of a file we would dry fit the laminate then slide it back from the opposing obstruction trim it with a laminate trimmer just for a couple of inches where our trimmer wouldn't fit.
Then we would lay down the contact cement.
This worked most of the time, only had to file after the fact on a couple of occasions.
We use porter cable laminate trimmers, with various brands of bits, always guide bearing though.
Freud, cmt, whiteside, bosch etc........
I think bevel bits give a better looking job when done.
Thank you for the tips...between you and zorro, I think my laminate days are alot brighter.
I know the Bosch Colt palm router has a tilt foot attachment that allows you to run a finished edge on an installed counter right up to the wall.
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail.htm?H=175980&G=66644&I=67467
--Andy
to trim a c'top edge, i use a alminate trimmer with a 1/4 ballbearing guided straight cutter
the last little section up to a wall can be done without the base ie freehand keeping the trimmer angled away from the edge
i know it sounds a little crazy, but i've done it for years with no problems
crazy is using a 3 hp router for the job freehand, but done that too when i forgot the laminate trimmers at home
YEP......I'd forgotten that one.....I used to do that and it doubles the duty for a cutter and saves money and it works like a champ....glad you told it.
Make sure when you use a cutter that actually does start flat at the bearing, that you don't push too hard INTO the edge....I've had a slight cutter "bite" happen (it doesn't take much color loss to show) when I got over zealous pushing against the edge with a bearing that had the slightest kind of flex in it....test it on something else for safety.
Edited 3/5/2006 2:44 pm ET by zorrosdens
Edited 3/5/2006 2:46 pm ET by zorrosdens
Thanks for the tip. A three horse power laminate router would cause cardiac failure in this carpenter!
It's been awhile since ive done any counters,but the way we used to do it was scribe the peices of substrate to fit. Remove them apply the laminate, route them than install them. that way there is no hand work. You have to mark inside cornerswhen you fit the peices so you know when to stop the router.
Well, if yer using an ordinary laminate trimmer, you is gonna be about 1 1/4-1/2" away from the wall.
You can file this, but it takes a lot of elbow grease....
I use an offset router base (Porter-cable) to get as close to the wall as possilble
I used to then take a square block of wood and use the carbide scribe to scribe and then break off just a tad proud of the edge, then file it off (wrap some masking tape around the ends of the files, or you will likely scratch up the wall)
now, faced with this same dilemma, I use some Starrett catelievered nippers (#1's I believe- available in 5 or 7" sizes) to slowly nibble off the excess (take to big a bite, and it just might run on into where you don't want it to) then file it
You can also use a cabinet scraper or a #90oid plane without the front end to do the finishing. Or, lacking any of those solutions, the non-cutting end of an olfa cutter (that line where the blades break off) has functioned as an ad-hoc micro cabinet scraper on a myriad of occassions. And oftentimes, scraping laminate is a heck of a lot faster than filing.
I like the scraping option, cause you is pulling the blade away from the wall, as opposed to the plane option, which pushes into the wall, and sometimes takes a tiny chip off the back corner (which is usually covered anyway by the backsplash.)
The best option I have ever seen was on "this old house" where in portraying a 5 minute countertop installation, these pesky "CT-meets wall" problems simply disappeared between shots.....!!!!!
Eric in Cowtown