We are looking at a home to purchase that has lead pipes and brass fittings. It was built in 1915, and the test for lead came in at .030 mg/L. Can anyone recommend a good filter, or shouls these be replaced? Thanks,
Binny.
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Yes, do replace the lead pipes. I doubt anyone here will advise you to keep them.
Bill
Thanks Bill,... filters don't work?
Lead supply piping? And you want to filter it? Do yourself and everybody else that might drink the stuff a favor (especially kids) and replace it before you use it for anything.
Lead piping needs to be replaced, in the supply and drains. About every old house I go to with lead (primarily drains, no lead supplies around here) have problems with lead thinning with age, developing leaks. A lot depends on your water purity, but I replace it all every chance I get.
Thanks to all who replied. We will definitely replace all the pipes.
You also might want to inspect the service line into your house. Some of those were made of lead.
Binny - I've not heard of using the old lead feed to pull a new line, but a local contractor can tell you the best way to go. I can tell you that here on Long Island, many contractors and utilities are using an underground tool similar to a harpoon (for lack of a better term). They dig a pit on the street side for a starter hole, another at the house side, then put the tool into the hole and let 'er rip. It saves some trenching, but I don't know the particulars on how far it can "shoot", in which soils, etc. Like I said, a local contractor can tell you better. I'll ditto the rest of the posters and say that if it were my house, I'd want to get the service upgraded. Good luck. Don
If you're talking about the same thing, this has been used for eons (or at least since I was a kid a half-century ago). Probably got a motor now, but basically it was a hydraulic ram that pushed sections of steel rod through the dirt. When the rod comes out in the trench on the other side, attach copper and pull it back through.
Probably the same concept, if not the same system. (I didn't say it was a new system. Just brought it up b/c nobody else did.) I've heard that they're using radio frequencies and metal detectors and such to get it to go where it's desired. One project I was into where I thought they would use it didn't happen. contractor said there were too many tree roots, just brought the backhoe over and dug the line. So much for technology.
In some cases you can get enough money for the lead and brass to pay for a big chunk of the replumbing.
It takes an amazingly tiny amount of lead to have a measurable effect on peoples' nervous systems. I would not even think of trying to filter it. You'd be depending on the filter from working flawlessly, never flowing the water faster than the chemistry of the filter can handle, and not exceeding the life of the filter (which would be very short with such a high concentration). Even the small amount of lead from a few solder joints is serious enough that lead solder was banned years ago, paint has been lead free since the 1970s, and gasoline has not had lead in it for about as long.
I'm as cheap as they come, but a big AMEN!! to the previous posts to replace - even replaced the copper cold water lines used for drinking water in my house (1970's) that had lead solder when the grandkids were born.
Use those lead pipes to melt down for your fishing lures.
Lead lures aren't a great idea either, they are banned in a number of places (Yellowstone, for instance) b/c of risks to water, fish and humans.
Ever eaten a fish that had a lead sinker in its the belly? You sure? :)
I knew someone was going to say that.
Of course, replacing the lead pipe from the street is a huge job. We did everything except that. They say if you run the water for 5 minutes before using it in the morning that gets any lead out. We just got a water cooler and one of those services that brings out jugs of water for our drinking and cooking water. The jugs are $6 each, we use 2 - 3/ month. Not ready to spend the money and have a 5' deep trench in the front yard.
Is the pipe big enough diameter that you might line it with a plastic line?
A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid
No, it's 3/4", not even as big as I'd like.
Out of curiousity how far of a run is it from the street to the house?
A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid
Probably about 35'. Can they be replaced without trenching? My water pressure sucks too, even after putting all new copper inside the house. Probably that lead feed is restricted.
I've never done this.
But some guys dug down at the street to expose the pipe where they secured a new plastic line to the old galvanized that was being replaced.
Then from the basement they were able to pull the new pipe thru the soil in the old pipes tunnel.
Using jacks they were able to wrap chains around the old pipe and pull it into the basement cutting off the appearing lengths as needed till the plastic pipe showed.
I would think the question would be how durable the old lead joints would be to endure the tugging.
Be a bummer to have the thing break halfway thru the pull, having now destroyed your old working system.
But at least then there would be half the digging needed. :o)
But lead pipes feeding your house is pretty undesirable even with carting in bottled water.
The upgrade would help resale value of the house.
It's the kind of thing you wouldn't be surprised if sometime the EPA mandated replacement as a necessity.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid
there is no way that I know of to replace a underground waterline without trenching. The easy way if you are not used to this type of work, is to get friends to help you dig the trench; you would be supprised how fast you can dig 35 feet with help.If you decide to do it, check with the local code requirements, [I live in the N.E. they require 42 inches below grade.] Don't forget to get the local utilities to mark out any underground lines in your digging area. The bottom line is that you have to replace the lead line; its causing your pressure problems, and its a health hazard. LOTS OF LUCK.
I just had a 52' feed from my house to the carriage house replaced, and like shacko said, with 4 or 5 guys digging, it really didn't take very long. They did drive a pipe out to a hole (like a well) to avoid digging near the plants and steps (same idea if you had to avoid a porch), and trench from the "well" to the carriage house. Also had to remove a small section of sidewalk. But they were done in about 5 to 6 hours, including lunch.Your biggest problem will be making the connection, particularly if it is in the street. That probably requires certified installers and bonding and stuff, to insure that the sidewalk and street gets put back together. But if the main supply line runs in grass/dirt, you're in great shape.
My post was to someone that does not have a lot of experience in replacing water supplies. There are many ways to do it, but you must have the expertise. What I suggested was the most easy and simple way to do it. Have a good one.
I had a new water line pulled in using the lead line to pull with. They pulled from the street side using the backhoe to pull with. About 10 or 12 feet though. Not 35 feet.
BTW. The lead pipes get crap built up on the inside with age and while this helps to keep the lead from leaching into the water, it really restricts the flow. Dig the trench, put in a new pipe. You'll be glad you did.
Like I told BRYANSAYER, I try to give out advice that I think will be the easiest way for the poster to solve his problem. Some of the more advanced solutions can get you into extreme voodoo if you don't know the next step when the original plan dosen't work. If you keep it simple, very few things will go wrong. [MURPHY IS A DIFFERENT STORY!!]. May the force be with you.
Hey as long as you have that lead pipe in the house , just don't get a butler and turn your back on him, that sucker is going to kill somebody, then you are going to have a mystery on your hands.What was the name of that game? I have forgotten.
I haven't a ... clue.
be ProfessorPlum with a candlestick.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid
My son owns rental houses in New Brunswick, NJ. They are all in the 80 to 120 year old range. You would be amazed how many of the houses in that area have lead supply lines from the street into the meter in the basement. Recently had to replace one because it got hit with the blade of the backhoe digging for a porch footing. First, I was amazed to find it was a lead supply, and second, I was more amazed to find that there was absolutely no buildup on the inside of the pipe. It was as smooth as a new copper line. Makes me wonder about all the warnings on lead poisoning. There doesn't seem to be any crazier people in New Brunswick than any other place I've been.
Incidentally, the plumber did have a special tool to attach to the end of the pipe to pull it through the dirt, but only for a distance of about 6-8 feet.
Hey, I lived in New Jersey once. I can assure you it's FULL of crazies. (Though most of the real fruitcakes are in Philadelphia and NYC.)
leave it to me to be the environmentally correct buzz kill.
I'd be more concerned over breathing the vapors from the melt pot. Can we say be holding your breath.
No wait, the vapor is penetrating my skin. What about the eyes. Best get a full face shield, goggles and dispose of the uniform when done in the secrecy of woods like with an old still, away from the view of the revenuers...er...EPA.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid
This discussion has given the expression, "Get the lead out!" a whole new meaning!
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Activated carbon has a slight affinity for heavy metals but is much less effective with metals than it is with organics (fuel hydrocarbons, pesticides, hormone mimics, etc). So better to run it through a Brita filter than nothing but much better to do something effective.
Distillation gets it all out but using a lot of power. It might beat hauling clean water to your house, though.
Reverse osmosis also gets it all out, typically at a greater equipment cost but a lower operating cost than distillation.
Ion-exchange resins work on lead (and arsenic, etc) but one must track usage to now when it "breaks through". Or just over-size it a conservative amount. I use it when I have thousands of gallons per day to treat. I don't know of pre-packaged systems sized for a residency, but maybe they are out there. Like a carbon filter, it does not take energy to run it.
I like the idea of bringing in the bottled water. At least until you replace the service lines. Rather than rent a dispenser, HD sells them now, for like $100. Then you get instant hot and chilled clean water.
This is especially important to fix if you have children under 5. Their brains are still connecting the neurons at an incredible rate. Lead interferes with that process. That is why it reduces IQ, causes speech difficulties, and emotional problems.
Sub-acute dosages aren't nearly as bad for adults, but for under-5's there is no safe amount. Less lead creates less deficits, but still some. Lots of lead can be devastating.
This is about the only topic I mention any of my certifications or registrations on, since I think it is very important to react properly if there are children involved.
I've read some of your other posts on this subject and you seem to be a very knowledgeable. I have two preschoolers and I've researched the subject to death as I'm a bit paranoid about it. In the area of Chicago that I live 95% of the homes were built before 1960, with lead supply lines. I don't know of anyone who has replaced theirs, which leads me to believe there's a lot of kids out there drinking this stuff. I figured I'm ahead of the game by having my kids drink bottled water.
Of course, we use city water in the dishwasher and tub, but I don't feel that there is a risk of ingestion that way. The pediatrician always gives me a hard time about asking for a blood test, so I don't think they're getting many cases of lead poisoning in my area. Chicago does have a lot of lead poisoned kids, according to something I read somewhere, but that seems to be mostly attributed to exposure to lead dust in low income areas where the landlords don't give a damn that they are poisoning children.
I've spent a lot of money on asbestoes and lead abatement, changing windows, even encapsulating lead paint on the garage, but I just don't feel to concerned about this threat. I just feel that at this point, knowing that my kids are not lead poisoned, the money would be better spent contributing to their college funds. Am I being rational or foolish? I'm the only one in the house that drinks out of the tap, so maybe my neurons are fryed.
Lead supply lines haven't been used since roughly 1930. Lead SOLDER was used in water lines up until maybe 1985.Of course, even if the lateral line from the house to the main isn't lead, the main itself may be lead. Lead mains were also used until maybe 1930, and a lot of those are still in service.
It's been shown that a substantial amount of the lead found in children comes from leaded gas.
Rich,
Yes, with pre-schoolers in old housing stock, you are right to vigilant. Lead-based paint (LBP) effects kids most between 6 months to 2 years olds. The vector is paint dust from friction surfaces - double-hung windows, door jambs, etc. Infants are mostly carried around. Over-twos mostly walk. But in between, they live on the floor and everything goes from hand to mouth.
With lead in tap water, under-5's are at the most risk if they drink it. But from showers, laundry, etc? Not a problem. Lead is not absorbed dermally from tap water and doesn't volatilize in the shower like, for instance, radon does.
I'd run the tap water for lead. Do a worst case test - hot water, first pint, first thing in the day. You are therefore testing the fixture (brass contains some lead), the interior piping, the piping to the HWH, the service piping and what the water departement sends you. The tests are about $20 or so. If you get a hit, write back and we can look at the naunces of distinguishing between those sources. But if you get no lead, then you can rest easy on the tap water front.
Your water department is also required to sample throughout THEIR system but also at a respective number of tap IN houses. And to make those results available. Lead pipes in the system may not be an issue if the water chemistry (non-zero TDS, not acidic water) doesn't dissolve the lead into the water. But with acidic or very pure water; service piping, solder and some fixtures can all contribute.
So: 1) ask the water department for their data, and 2) run a worst-case lead test on your tap water.
Yes, at some point, your kids are better off with enough money for school, instead of spending it all on hazardous materials abatement and Volvos.
Be well,
David
I will definetly do that. Should I run a hot water tap until I get the hottest water, then take the sample?
Probably "optimal" is to just run it until it starts getting warm. Or take two samples, one when you first crack open the tap, and another when the water isn't quite hot.
I used these test kits: http://www.watersafetestkits.com/html/drinkingkits.asp
Only $10 each. Pretty easy to read the results if you study the directions carefully.
I took a sample first thing in the morning, right out of the faucet, another after 30 seconds, and then a third after two minutes or so. It doesn't tell you the level of the lead, it just gives you a positive or a negative for lead being present at levels below the EPA action level of 15 PPB.
No, just take the first pint. Maybe run two gallons of hot water as the last thing the previous night.
The first water is worst case because it has sat in the fixture which can have leachable lead in the brass alloy.
Hot water is worst case because it goes through the most piping, sits in the system the longest, and because the higher temps increase dissolution rates and solubility.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska