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Breaktimers…
A tour around my crawlspace last weekend turned up evidence of water leakage below my tile shower floor. I pulled down the insulation to uncover solid black moldy subfloor and teeny white bugs. You can stick a screwdriver deep into the top half of a couple joists.
Oh hell.
The floor was thickset with a PVC pan. The shower isn’t any sort of standard size. I figure the simplest solution would be to let things dry for a while, tear out the tile and subfloor, add some joists, come back with new subfloor, and hire the best tile man I can find.
But…I don’t want to do this repair again! Does anyone have material or installation tips for a permanent leakproof floor? It would be a lot more hassle, but should I demo the shower wall and rebuild the room to hold a prefab fiberglass shower unit?
TIA for any help.
Dave
Replies
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Here's a JLC link that may give you a few ideas. There are a few archived threads, try a search using "shower pan" or other relevant words.
Good luck...
*Dave;Did I read "prefabricated fiberglass shower unit" on a "Fine Homebuilding" board? PaaaleeezPerhaps I'm being too highbrow, but tile has so much more innate quality when compared to the prefab. look, touch, feel when you stand in it.There are some excellent resources on pans; freds comments are good. I've seen alot of leaks aroung the floor drain. Any flex there will tear the membrane and the water propagates. Also, the flange and membrane need to align right. Taunton has aa few books/videos which cover this
*Let's see if I can answer your questions:First: Yes there is such a thing as a leakproof shower pan. It's not as elusive as you may now believe. You have provided the solution already.Two: Not formatted as a question, but still wants for an answer. I suggest not waiting "for things to dry out". Don't let time wreck any more havoc than is now present. Just cutting off the water supply will not help at this point. Get busy now on correcting the damage.Three: Your answer is partly found in choice of materials and mostly in installation. Get yourself the best installer to be found. Conscientous and experienced, this describes the guy you are looking for. Of the two shower pan failures that ever occurred on my jobs, one was from a drunk, fired, irate carpenter who shot hundreds of nails into the pan from below and the other was from allowing a less-than-experienced employee to install the vinyl pan. I have literally installed hundreds of shower pans and none have ever leaked. I have been contracting in the same area for 18 years, so I'd think I would have heard about it if there was a problem. This speaks of the importance of a qulaity installtion. Four: I suggest you not downgrade to a fiberglas unit. You do seem to contradict yourself in that one, you say that you will be looking for the best tile man you can find, two, you ask for installation tips, as if you plan on doing this yourself. While it is not at all difficult to install a leakproof pan, I suggest you follow through with letting the experienced guy do the job. This is because each stage of the work will be made easier/harder by the previous stage.You can make it easier for him and less costly to you by doing all the demo work yourself. Open the whole area from the top and keep expanding the "digging" until you get to good wood. Usually, you only need to go 12" up the wall, that is, three 1/4" tiles high. This stage of the project will be messy because of the fungus, et al. Wear gloves and a HEPA filter. While you're at it, seal off the room from the rest of the house and be sure you provide positive ventilation to the outside, especially if there are children around. Children are more sucseptible to respiratory infections.Whether you do the installation or have someone else do it, make sure there is a sloped mortar bed installed underneath the pan. Slope should be 1/4" per foot to the weepholes on the drain. Also, make sure there is a "pan test" performed after the pan is installed and before any other work is started. Also, be sure the pan wraps up the walls a minimum 3" above the curb height.Keep us informed.
*Dave,Here down under we have to warrant our work for 6 years. One of the major causes of call backs in the past has been wet areas. It is now compulsory to seal the wet areas prior to tiling. This is mainly accomplished with a fibreglass coating. In the case of slab on ground the slab is usually rebated in the bathroom area ( allows for a mud job ) and the whole floor is fibreglassed ( with matt) and returned up th walls about 50 mm. The lining must also go down into this area ( below the plate ). Internal corners are also glassed up to about 6 foot. The floor wastes are cut off level and the glass is formed down into the waste pipe prior to the actual waste being installed.We have had zero callbacks since using this method. The same holds true for timber floors, the only change is having to form a hob for the shower out of brick prior to glassing. Cost for an average bathroom.. around $250 AUD.
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Thanks for the tip Fred; I can discuss the option with the tile man I choose. I'm SOL on the leaking shower, but want whatever factory and installer warrantees I can get for the replacement. Is this use of roofing membrane recommended and backed by the membrane manufacturer? Dave
*Mongo, thanks for the link - good looking article. I should spend some more time searching for resources. Dave
*Hi Adam, good point on the aesthetic results of using prefab units. I really like the shower if it wouldn't leak. 5'-6" x 4'-10", 2 heads, and 1/4" Corian walls. Good place to shower and easy to clean. Flex in the subfloor may have been a factor. It wasn't under the leaking area, but I noticed some apparent construction damage to the subfloor nearby, and am not sure if the thickness and material are appropriate for use under a shower. Dave
*Thanks for the detailed answer, Rich.Demolishing moldy material while it is damp might release less harmful mold spores into the air. Maybe avoiding power tools in the demolition will also reduce airborne pollutants.I plan to do everything except the tile installation, and figure on starting with the local NTCA director in my search for the best tile installer around here. Do you have any other tips for finding good tile subs? I think we were indeed the victims of a poor installation. I don't think there was a leak test, and noticed some loose pan edges that may have been indicative of voids elsewhere that later became tears. The entire installation was done with whole and cut flat 2x2 tiles. No coves, corners, bullnoses, or other shapes were used. Insisting on proper use of shapes would make the job look better, but do you think it would make the floor more likely to be leakproof as well?I hope the demolition won't uncover the need for demolition above the bottom of the Corian sheets - 4" above the tile floor. None of the shower walls are load bearing. While some joists are rotten, the black subfloor seems solid. I'll see what I uncover, but hope to only have to demolish to the shower wall studding, seal the remaining outgoing edge to prevent water migration in case the new pan leaks, and install new joists as needed to fully support my subfloor.Good point on hand and lung protection too. Fortunately the room has a very good fan and can be shut off from the adjacent bedroom.Thanks for the help,Dave
*Mark, Darn, no warrantee on my shower. The house is 8 years old. Maybe one way to separate the serious subs from the incompetent is to ask for a long and formal warrantee. Is 10 years unreasonable?I'll ask my tile subs about fiberglass; hadn't heard of using it for this before.Dave
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Dave,
I would be confident that this system will hold up even longer than ten years. Forgot one thing...a bond breaker at floor, wall junction, using "Sikaflex" and tape to allow for any potential movement.
*To help insure that you find a good tile man, I suggest you do the following: educate yourself on the proper installation methods and material selections. Invite 3-5 tile guys--one at a time--over to look at the job after you have completed the demo work and before you start putting it back together. These guys are culled from a prequalified list you have developed based on W-O-M, supplier refferals, and/or length of time in the trade, as well as in your area. Have some questions prepared ahead of time. Ask each the same questions and listen closely to their response. You want someone who can explain why they would choose a certain material/method. Watch their expressions and mannerisms. You are not looking for "honesty"; you are looking for expertise. (A BS artist can tell you their "truth" convincingly).Tile trim does make the job look finished, but I don't see how their use would add significantly to water proofing.Caveat: asking a tile man what he thinks of using fiberglas may be heading for trouble. Usually, a tradesman uses those materials he is most familiar with. Unless he is familiar with figerglas, he is the wrong person to ask. Try asking a exterior decking guy about fiberglas. In my neck of the woods, the solid surface, exterior deck subfloors are not installed by tile guys. I have completed a couple, but this is somewhat unusual.Okay, last thing: let's say you have to replace a couple of studs. If you don't go higher than 4", how are you going to fit the replacement studs? I guess you could figure out a way, but it would make for tight quarters. If you have to cut into the corian, cut it clean and level around the stall. Make this cut at an elevation determined by a full tile layout. Just a thought...
*Rich:Im wondering if you have any experience with the product Ultra Set from Bostik..a trowel on waterproofing membrane? Im working on a tile shower install that has two corner benches in it. Would like to use this product on the benches and may run it over my mortar pan and curb just for piece of mind.(Its a 650k house in Iowa) My pan as installed is a sloped mortar sub-pan with liner and mortar bed floor..nothing new here. Ive never used a trowel on membrane before and would like some feed back if you have experience. My main question is if I use it on the benches and extend it up the wall do I have to go all the way up or can I feather it out say 6 inches above the benches?? Thanks.....DaveA
*Creature, I do have experience with UltraSet. In fact, I am emphatically pleased with this product. But, it can get messy if one is not careful: the stuff sticks to any and everything, even with just a light touch. So, wear long sleeve and disposable gloves. You can use MEK or laquer thinner as a solvent, but this is messy. I just use my standby P-OF-S trowel, don't have to worry about cleanup. Or, let the stuff dry, scrape with sharp blade later.Using it in the manner you have described is within the product specifications so you should do fine. However, I'd like more information on what solid substrate you plan to trowel it onto on the walls. Of course, you realize your walls should be as plumb and flat as possible. It's best if you trowel the UltraSet on the walls--6" is fine--before your leveling coat/backerboard. Otherwise, the UltraSet will be proud of the leveling coat on the walls.The product description includes explicit information for the usage you desire. Basically, two coats UltraSet: 1st coat, ground coat with notch trowel; 2nd coat, smoothing/leveling coat. The 2nd coat goes on no more than 24 hours after the 1st coat. (That's the voice of experience.) Also, you can tile directly over this coat if desired, just do so within 72 hours after applying 2nd coat. If you can't do this within the 72, skim coat the UltraSet with thinset to allow bond of thinset later. (Again, voice of experience.)Before applying 2nd coat, cut out any bubbles that may have formed in 1st coat. Also, after applying UltraSet, secure the area to prevent insects, leaves, small animals from becoming stuck and disapointing you tomorrow. (I'm not kidding about the small animals.)Sorry about being so longwinded. Hey, it could've been a run on sentence.
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Hey Rich, which do you think is more likely to result in a leakproof shower - CPE sheet or Bostik Ultraset? Which is more goofproof in terms of workmanship? I assume that other aspects of the installation should be identical, and as shown in the...
http://www.jlconline.com/jlc/archive/kitchen/mortarbed_showers/index.html
article linked earlier in this thread. Thanks, Dave
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Dave, after thinking about your question I would have to say the two materials are equal in performance. Basically, type of job and/or jobsite conditions would determine which material to use.
Your second question hints at the real test of the materials in question. Since each material requires very different installation techniques, this is a bit like comparing apples to oranges.
But if you are aiming at determining which material is more user friendly for, say, a DIY, I guess I'd go with the troweled on liquid membrane which is UltraSET. My reasoning here is that a less experienced installer would be more apt to install a CPE pan membrane incorrectly.
This does not imply that either material is difficult to install, just that one should learn how to install first, recognize the pertinent jobsite conditions, and pay attention during the install.
*Dave We have also done hundreds of showers. The key is not so much a good tile man as it is the preparation. For all of our tile showers, we start with a copper pan which our plumbers order pre-sautered to the right dimensions from their supply house. They then set the pan on the subfloor with const. adhesive-never nailed-and they sauter the drain assembly into it. It is then leak-tested. We then overlap 36" of ice and water shield around the walls and into the pan which has a 6" lip typically. At the shower curb, we again overlap I&W shield into the pan. When the stall is wonderboarded, we have our drywall sub use roofing nails or galv. screws. When our tile sub arrives, he tapes all the seams on the board with fiberglass mesh and thinset-including the inside corners. THEN he starts the tiling. By the way, we always use solid material for on top of the curb-never tiled. Tile and grout,in itself,is usually not water-proof. Alot depends on the prep that's behind it. I have done alot of troubleshooting in leaky showers and 99% of the time it is grout related and has nothing to do with the plumbing-generally there was never any prep work done with these showers and in extreme cases I have found some to be set with greenboard. Hope this helps.
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Johnny, I'm finishing up a re-worked shower now, and think that a solid surface curb top would be great. I've got some corian that I can cut to the size I need - anyone know if I can stick it on with thinset, or do I need construction adhesive (or something else)?
TIA, Jim
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Jim, I agree a solid surface curb top would be great. In reference to your question: what would you be sticking it to?
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Semi-existing, semi-rebuilt curb. New vinyl water dam embedded in Mapachem mortar with diamond mesh screen. Top surface is thinset mortar, preped for tile, but the corian seems like a better idea. But, how to hold it in place [forever . . .]?
Jim
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Jim, from the sound of it, you could get by with a modified thinset. That's for bonding the corian.
But I just wonder how long what's underneath will last. F'rinstance: you have the diamond mesh screen on top of the vinyl. Sure, separated by a layer of thinset, but as you have it now, sounds like the screen is susceptible to water contact, ergo, rust. Rust equals swelling equals possible vinyl penetration.
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OK, Rich, another one for you!
I'm too far down the river on this one, but I'm going to be doing another shower soon. Here's what I did on this one: 1) sloped layer of MapaChem mortar with chicken wire embedded on top of concrete slab; 2) vinyl liner (water tested); 3)second layer of MapaChem with diamond mesh embedded in it; 4) floor tile
Have I gone overboard on reinforcement? If the diamond mesh is a good idea, where should it be - underneath the vinyl in that layer? If something should be on top, what?
thanks again!
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Breaktimers...
A tour around my crawlspace last weekend turned up evidence of water leakage below my tile shower floor. I pulled down the insulation to uncover solid black moldy subfloor and teeny white bugs. You can stick a screwdriver deep into the top half of a couple joists.
Oh hell.
The floor was thickset with a PVC pan. The shower isn't any sort of standard size. I figure the simplest solution would be to let things dry for a while, tear out the tile and subfloor, add some joists, come back with new subfloor, and hire the best tile man I can find.
But...I don't want to do this repair again! Does anyone have material or installation tips for a permanent leakproof floor? It would be a lot more hassle, but should I demo the shower wall and rebuild the room to hold a prefab fiberglass shower unit?
TIA for any help.
Dave
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Jim, yeah, I'd say you don't need all the wire. The preslope under the pan, good idea to place wire in it, but only over a wood subfloor. Over a slab, the concrete guys have already done it for you. Placing wire in the setting bed over the pan membrane, you must take care that the wire does not contact the pan. And you can't really know if this is the case or not, right? So, delete the wire.
Besides, where is that mud gonna' go? Ever look at a sidewalk, how far apart are the control joints? 3', 6'? This is less than the length of most shower floors. And, what is the psi of the material you are using? Alot more than any sidewalk, or most slab on grades, that's for sure.
What about the spacing of the steel in a residential slab? 24"oc? That is for the live and dead loads of the house, rolling traffic, et al. What kind of live/dead loading are we talking here for a shower stall?
Don't get me wrong, reinforcement in a showerstall floor is needed...sometimes. The job and installation methods/materials determine that. The typical residential showerstall does not need wire reinforcement in the floor.
This is all my opinion. As noted above, I do use wire in the preslope only. The Tile Council of America does recommend wire reinforcement. They also defer to the mechanic doing the work.