*
I like that. A leader saying: “Follow me!”. Your reaction?
TC
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
A standardized approach, quick-to-install hardware, and a simplified design make building custom casework cost-effective.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
*
it could be an instructer in a home made cigarettes class.
*Lead, follow, or get out of my way...... Sir.
*It's from the plane heroes.
*I like the idea of having a leader who won't back down after reasonable negotiation breaks down. Say what you will about the man, but after tonight's speech I was trying to picture some lilly liver in the role. Thankfully, we don't have to put up with that too.God bless America
*I like it, too, TWC. Celebrating a fallen hero, all the victims, and survivors.
*God bless our Pres. his cabinet and all the folks in leadership. God bless and protect all warriors one and all
*Kai,Yes, it honors one of the real heroes of this whole sad saga. Whoever it really was that started that revolution among the passengers has my undying respect. That took--no other way to put it--BALLS. I wonder, can the USA as a country rally the same level of commitment to this cause?Fair criticism of our international policies aside, I perceive a waning of America's enthusiasm. And, as a Vietnam veteran, that scares the shit out of me.Tom
*It's nice to not only have a president who is respected by the military, but a leader who actually leads.Bravo Mr. Bush.
*> Fair criticism of our international policies aside, I perceive a waning of America's enthusiasm. And, as a Vietnam veteran, that scares the shit out of me. It scares me, too. It's as if 9-11 has been forgotten. The major TV news operations seem to avoid using the tape they have of it.-- J.S.
*This will take some time to load unless you have broadband http://www.calpilot.com/worldtrade.swf
*Wow, I'm still in awe of the resolve of the American people, and the rest of the free world.My heart aches and my first automatic response of revenge is tempered by the hope for true justice.I'm sorry, but there will be costs and a price to pay, but the message must be sent.Let freedom reign!
*>I perceive a waning of America's enthusiasmI hope not Tom. I believe that the excitement is gone, like first love (or hate in this instance), but the people around me all seem to realize we have no choice. We gotta fight or get killed in our beds.
*I hope not too Jim, I think we're being TOLD that Americans are growing impatient, and their drive is waning, but I don't think it is.I think it's just news organizations trying to create news when there isn't much to report.Mike
*I perceive a waning of the taliban's enthusiasm (if the news is correct). They said their starting to cut and run......I guess a B-52 strike could have that effect on a guy.I wonder how all the newbies from pakistan are gonna hold up?Maybe they outta just get all of em out there and get it over with.
*Well today the Taliban finally acknowledged the Northern Alliance has taken the city of Mazar-e-Sharif (perhaps a relation to Omar?) and that hopefully the Taliban will be losing their control. Reports have stated the Taliban is running towards Kabul, which is where most of our ground forces are waiting.Good for us.Bad for them.DOWN WITH THE TALIBAN!
*the heck with the taliban we want binnie and his henchmen thats what this is about not a bunch of 3rd world aganis, we want the terrorist.
*Buh buh buh binnieBuh buh buh binnieBuh buh buh binnie and his punks.
*Mark, that site crashed my puter. Tell me a bit about what is on it. TIA.
*kai,It's about a 5 minute slideshow of various pics from 9/11, with an Enya song playing for background. Very moving, I think every time they showed a new pic I got another chill running down my spine.
*I was under the impression that Kabul is expected to be the last showdown with the Taliban. Has Kabul already been taken by us that we are laying in wait? I know we've been bombing the heck out of it.
*Osama been hiding.
*Bush has stated that he wants the Northern Alliance to stay out of Kabul---this is a very important area, and if the Taliban goes there, we want to make sure that we get all of them in one shot.
*From what i read Bush is concerned the NA might start killing people in a revenge type slaughter and we definately dont want that.
*Thanks, Mr. P. I plan to try it from work.
*hey, mark... that was a great presentation... worth the download....kind of reminds me of the old addage... "when everyone around you is scared and confused... and yo are calm and collected.. it just means you don't know what the f*ck is going on ...."to all those in harm's way.."god speed"
*Bingo, Mike. I think you said it perfectly. I wish we had a more unbiased source of news and info than the U.S. press.
*Another tear-jerker site, Mark. Thanks.
*If I was going to go into guerilla warfare like bin jerkin says he will, running away from tanks and planes and abandoning artillery would be my first step. I'm not so sure the ''advances" made by the NA are something worth excessive cheering. The Soviets probably occupied Kabul, too. I don't know much of the dynamics of the situation today. I would guess the whole of the Afghan people were united in their fight against the Soviets. How this situation is different depends I think on the loyalty relationship of the Pushtins to the Taliban and Osoma. If they are loyal, and they are the vast majority in the south, this may be just the beginning of lots of hit and run tactics.I hope we have adjusted our tactics, and have a good plan to attack and kill the enemy, no matter what type of battle he chooses to fight.
*Tara,I think Bush wants the Alliance to stay out of Kabul until we can come up with a plan for who is going to run the goverment.He doesn't want them to think that because they hold the capital they are in charge.Also the Taliban's main strong hold is in the south in Kandahar.I haven't heard anything about us waiting in or around Kabul to strike the final blow.Vince
*here's a first hand account of Newfoundland on 911.. * Shared by Sue Christian Subject: Delta Flight 15 Amazing Story of Delta Flight 15 (This was written by a flight attendant.) On the morning of Tuesday, September 11, we were about 5 hours out of Frankfurt, flying over the North Atlantic. All of a sudden the curtains parted and I was told to go to the cockpit, immediately, to see the captain. As soon as I got there I noticed that the crew had that "All Business" look on their faces. The captain handed me a printed message. It was from Delta's main office in Atlanta and simply read, "All airways over the Continental United States are closed to commercial air traffic. Land ASAP at the nearest airport. Advise your destination." No one said a word about what thiscould mean. We knew it was a serious situation and we needed to find terra firma quickly. The captain determined that the nearest airport was 400 miles behind us in Gander, Newfoundland. He requested approval for a route change from the Canadian traffic controller and approval was granted immediately--no questions asked. We found out later, of course, why there was no hesitation in approving our request. While the flight crew prepared the airplane for landing, another message arrived from Atlanta telling us about some terrorist activity in the New York area. A few minutes later word came in about the hijackings. We decided to LIE to the passengers while we were still in the air. We told them the plane had a simple instrument problem and that we needed to land at the nearest airport in Gander, Newfoundland to have it checked out. We promised to give more information after landing in Gander. There was much grumbling among the passengers, but that's nothing new! Forty minutes later, we landed in Gander. Local time at Gander was 12:30 pm that's 11:00 AM EST. There were already about 20 other airplanes on the ground from all over the world who had taken this detour on their way to the U.S. After we parked on the ramp, the captain made the following announcement: "Ladies and gentlemen, you must be wondering if all these airplanes around us have the same instrument problem as we have. The reality is that we are here for another reason." Then he went on to explain the little bit we knew about the situation in the U.S. There were loud gasps and stares of disbelief. The captain informed passengers that Ground control in Gander told us to stay put. The Canadian Government was in charge of our situation and no one was allowed to get off the aircraft. No one on the ground was allowed to come near any of the aircraft. Only airport police would come around periodically, look us over and go on to the next airplane. In the next hour or so more planes landed and Gander ended up with 53 airplanes from all over the world, 27 of which were U.S. commercial jets. Meanwhile, bits of news started to come in over the aircraft radio and for the first time we learned that airplanes were flown into the World Trade Center in New York and into the Pentagon in DC. People were trying to use their cell phones, but were unable to connect due to a different cell system in Canada. Some did get through, but were only able to get to the Canadian operator who would tell them that the lines to the U.S. were either blocked or jammed. Sometime in the evening the news filtered to us that the World Trade Center buildings had collapsed and that a fourth hijacking had resulted in a crash. By now the passengers were emotionally and physically exhausted, not to mention frightened, but everyone stayed amazingly calm. We had only to look out the window at the 52 other stranded aircraft to realize that we were not the only ones in this predicament. We had been told earlier that they would be allowing > people off the planes one plane at a time. At 6 PM, Gander airport told us that our turn to deplane would be 11am the next morning. > Passengers were not happy, but they simply resigned themselves to this news without much noise and started to prepare themselves to spend the night on the airplane. Gander had promised us medical attention, if needed, water, and lavatory servicing. And they were true to their word. Fortunately we had no medical situations to worry about. We did have a young lady who was 33 weeks into her pregnancy. We took REALLY good care of her. The night passed without incident despite the uncomfortable sleeping arrangements. About 10:30 on the morning of the 12th a convoy of school buses showed up. We got off the plane and were taken to the terminal where we went through Immigration and Customs and then had to register with the Red Cross. After that we (the crew) were separated from the passengers and were taken in vans to a small hotel. We had no idea where our passengers were going. We learned from the Red Cross that the town of Gander has a population of 10,400 people and they had about 10,500 passengers to take care of from all the airplanes that were forced into Gander! We were told to just relax at the hotel and we would be contacted when the U.S. airports opened again, but not to expect that call for a while. We found out the total scope of the terror back home only after getting to our hotel and turning on the TV . . . 24 hours after it all started. Meanwhile, we had lots of time on our hands and found that the people of Gander were extremely friendly. They started calling us the "plane people." We enjoyed their hospitality, explored the town of Gander and ended up having a pretty good time. Two days later, we got that call and were taken back to the Gander airport. Back on the plane, we were reunited with the passengers and found out what they had been doing for the past two days. What we found out was incredible. Gander and all the surrounding communities (within about a 75 Kilometer radius) had closed all high schools, meeting halls, lodges, and any other large gathering places. They converted all these facilities to mass lodging areas for all the stranded travelers. Some had cots set up, some had mats with sleeping bags and pillows set up. ALL high school students were required to volunteer their time to take care of the "guests." Our 218 passengers ended up in a town called Lewisporte, about 45 kilometers from Gander where they were put up in a high school. If any women wanted to be in a women-only facility, that was arranged. Families were kept together. All the elderly passengers were taken to private homes. Remember that young pregnant lady? She was put up in a private home right across the street from a 24-hour Urgent Care facility. There was a dentist on call and both male and female nurses remained with the crowd for the duration. Phone calls and e-mails to the U.S. and around the world were available to everyone once a day. During the day, passengers were offered "Excursion" trips. Some people went on boat cruises of the lakes and harbors. Some went for hikes in the local forests. Local bakeries stayed open to make fresh bread for the guests. Food was prepared by all the residents and brought to the schools. People were driven to restaurants of their choice and offered wonderful meals.Everyone was given tokens for local laundromats to wash their clothes, since luggage was still on the aircraft. In other words, every single need was met for those stranded travelers. Passengers were crying while telling us these stories. Finally, when they were told that U.S. airports had reopened, they were delivered to the airport right on time and without a single passenger missing or late. The local Red Cross had all the information about the whereabouts of each and every passenger and knew which plane they needed to be on and when all the planes were leaving. They coordinated everything beautifully. It was absolutely incredible. When passengers came on board, it was like they had been on a cruise. Everyone knew each other by name. They were swapping stories of their stay, impressing each other with who had the better time. Our flight back to Atlanta looked like a chartered party flight. The crew just stayed out of their way. It was mind boggling. Passengers had totally bonded and were calling each other by their first names, exchanging phone numbers, addresses, and email addresses. And then a very unusual thing happened. One of our passengers approached me and asked if he could make an announcement over the PA system. We never, ever allow that. But this time was different. I said "of course" and handed him the mike. He picked up the PA and reminded everyone about what they had just gone through in the last few days. He reminded them of the hospitality they had received at the hands of total strangers. He continued by saying that he would like to do something in return for the good folks of Lewisporte. He said he was going to set up a Trust Fund under the name of DELTA 15 (our flight number). The purpose of the trust fund is to provide college scholarships for the high school students of Lewisporte. He asked for donations of any amount from his fellow travelers. When the paper with donations got back to us with the amounts, names, phone numbers and addresses, the total was for more than 14,000 dollars! The gentleman, an MD from Virginia, promised to match the donations and to start the administrative work on the scholarship. He also said that he would forward this proposal to Delta Corporate and ask them to donate as well. I just wanted to share this story because we need good stories right now. It gives me a little bit of hope to know that some people in a far away place were kind to some strangers who literally dropped in on them. It reminds e how much good there is in the world.b ...how 'bout dat ?
*All Patriotism aside, what exactly is defeating a poor, third world country like Afgahnistan going to accomplish? Yeah, the Taliban are a nasty group of extemists and probably deserve to be ousted, no argument there, but what will it get us? One less hiding place for terrorists? We'll have to maintain that place like a military dictatorship-costly and ugly. What if he moves to Palestine or Iraq...We blow them to crap too? I'm sorry, but I don't get the "Let's roll" thing. Those guys all died. Good line for a company of Marines or a platoon of soldiers, but scary for a nation.
*teo,again we are not at war again afganistan. we are trying to distroy a terrorist group. the taliban are harboring the leader or cfo of the group as well as the board of directors of the group. we need to get these morons be fore they can attack us or any other nation. if we dont they will do it again.this is not about patriotism this is about survival.
*That sounds very simplistic Ron. Do you really think Bin Laden is the only one with a hatred for the US ( and other Western countries )?Let's see now. The worlds Muslim population is thought to be over 1 billion. Let's be conservetive and guesstimate that of that number, 1% are extremists with the same views as Bin Laden. Further reduce that to leave women and children out of the equation. Shall we say 60%?How many does that leave? ( very conservetively?)It's not about personalities Ron. It's about ideals. It's about beliefs. And we have only dealt with Muslims here. Do you think that the same extremism doesn'r extend into other religions as well?You can take out Bin Laden. You can take out the Taliban. Someone else is going to step up to the plate.
*marki would be quite naieve not to know the el quaida terrorist group is not the only one. But they are a start. We must remember that we are fighting for the lives of our people our way of life our freedoms. I know when we take out binny and his henchman there will be others to step up, but once we sent the message this will not be tolerated they will think twice about pulling what binnies boys did. i feel when we finish with binney we should go aafter another major group or 2 just to cool the jets of the rest of them. I they truely believed in there religious beliefs they wouldnt be in hiding they would be wanting to go see allah. its about fear and intimidation.
*Mike,Thanks for sharing that amazing story, I'm all warm and fuzzy on the way to supper (deer chili).Allen
*I'm with you, buddy.(as much as it may kill my sex life...)
*Me too Ron, these days I tend to get my local news from local papers, and world news from MSNBC or FOXNEWS. I'm still constantly vigilant for spin.
*Teo, we wouldn't have a nation as we know it if we didn't step up to the plate. (Do you realise that when France fell to Germany in WWII, it was only Britian between us and Germany? And Britain was preparing for invasion until we entered the war. What if we hadn't?)The fact that you have the freedom to choose whether you want to get behind this "Let's roll" thing or not is solely due to men and women who have fought to ensure the perpetuation of such a freedom. The cost of freedom is not just the title of a song.The answer is "Yes" to your question if he moves to Palestine or Iraq. No, we don't have to set up a military dictatorship. We simply continue to export our cultural imperialism and continue a stance to ensure that all men are treated equitably. Overly simplistic, yes. But it does describe the plan in a nutshell.What we get out of it is our God given freedom. See, God gave us this freedom but some men try to take it away. We must fight those types, wherever they may run. If it were your husband, son, or daughter, would you rather they die in the fight for freedom or only in vain? To not die is not an option. We must continue the fight against evil. Surely, this is a fight against evil.Those Marines you speak of exist solely to protect your freedoms. God bless every one of them. This war has already come to our shores. Would you rather wait until evil comes to your door? Do you think I am being extreme in thinking evil will come to your door? Do you think it won't come to your door? Do nothing and find out.God bless America
*Ok, Rich, stop frothing, you're getting the podium wet.I don't think anyone here is not glad for the freedoms we have. I don't think anyone here would not gladly step up and do what it takes to hold onto that freedom. I don't think anyone here is not grateful for all the sacrifices that have been made by others to ensure that freedom.To answer your question, Yes. You are being extreme. Next thing we know you are going to be calling Teo a turban head. And calling for censure, blackballing, deportation, and worse.Get a grip.
*i I think Bush wants the Alliance to stay out of Kabul until we can come up with a plan for who is going to run the govermentIsn't that moot now that Kabul [allegedly] fell to the Alliance? I think Bush is working very hard to make certain the potential new govt is representative.
*Yup, too late now. And in actually I think bush is working hard on being presidential. Colin Powell is working hard on the new gov't. That's why he was at the UN yesterday when AA587 came down.As the Taliban retreats towards the Pakistan border, we will soon see what Pakistan is made of-and I don't think we're gonna like it.
*i I they truely believed in there religious beliefs they wouldnt be in hiding they would be wanting to go see allahThat's just it, Ron; they only want to die if they can take innocents w/them.
*A grip is it? So you think I'm tilting at windmills, huh? You don't think "anyone here would not gladly step up and do what it takes to hold onto that freedom."? Excuse me, but that is exactly what I see here and at other bbs. Seems some folks don't want to step up to the plate. Some folks are just content with letting someone else do it for them. I'm not accusing anyone specific of this, but I think we've seen enough of that hogwash. So, no, I don't agree that anyone would do what it takes to keep our freedom alive. It's not about being grateful, it's about doing what must be done.Talk about me getting a grip: a call for censure, el al? Yeah, right.
*kai, The idea is to send them to allah before they can kill any of our innocents. general patton had a theory which was simply a enemy cant attack on its heels (while retreating).
*Ron, You and Kai are both right. We would prefer that they be eliminated before they had a chance to kill any of our innocents. But being the cowards they are, they are only prepared to die for their 'great cause' if they are able to do so while taking as many innocent lives with them as possible.Some 'great cause', huh ? If they are willing to die in it's defense, only if they think they will be guaranteed heaven and a bunch of virgins.
*Thanks, Luka. You said it better than I could. (BTW, I need you in some other thread LOL can't remember which.)
*Just what is 'stepping up to the plate' ??Spouting a bunch of bullshit rhetoric, spreading fear and hatred, trying to find a basis for 'them and us' thinking about the very people you live among ? Maybe signing up for one of the armed forces in the hopes that you can go somewhere and face flying bullets ?If it's the first, you got it nailed buddy. Keep it up, and maybe someday, when you die a lonely angry old man, you'll earn your 27 virgins too. If it's the second, well, c'mon, Rich, step up to the plate and make an example of yourself for the rest of us. Maybe you'll get lucky and you'll meet one of those bullets head-on, and thereby earn your 27 virgins.If I am not even close in figuring out what 'stepping up to the plate' really means, then please enlighten me.
*Mark,There are still a good number of Germans who think that Hitler was a great man, a visionary, and a good leader. I think it's fair to say there are still a good number of "Nazis" in the world, either historical or philosophical. In the Pacific Northwest, there are a great number of iron cross waving skinheads who despise and condemn blacks, Jews, homosexuals and others. You know my point is going to be: The ass-whuppin given to those bastards has kept them relatively quiet for fifty years. I say we send the glorious brave men women who have the courage to do so into the caves with flamethrowers and 9mm's, and let them do what ought to be done. I don't think I want to try to understand them. I just want them to have a very clear and precise impression that there is some semblance of justice on this earth. Let their ideals and beliefs be controlled and kept in check like the other bastards who have sought to inflict terror and genocide. Their ideals and beliefs state that every American is a target, accountable for death. OK then, time to take it to them. In the frontier American west, if you stated you were out to kill someone, that person was free to ambush you, or shoot you down out in the open, without fear of prosecution. The threat has been made publicly. Time to ambush. Too bad if the rest of the world thinks that policy is archaic, or shortsided. Of course somone else will step up to the plate. They always have, and as long as human government controlls human behaviour, there will always be a "someone" who needs to be controlled.Nathan
*YupBut a well placed grenade or explosives pack would probably seal up the cave, and no one outside the cave gets hurt.
*I hope that many are chased into just such a hole, and are sealed up tightly.
*BTW : A thought occured to me this afternoon. Now, I know that I have not paid the best attention, but my impression of the way things have been working up to this point is... The nation who gets the most terrorist strikes is who ? Israel, right ? How do they respond when there is a terrorist strike ? They rush out and raise havoc. They make a huge strike in retaliation for the smallest of terrorist strikes. Does this buy them 'respect' ? Does this make the terrorists less likely to strike them again ? The answers to those questions are obvious.We, on the other hand, haven't yet adopted a just bomb them all approach. We have stuck with specific targets, and a specific goal/quarry. In the end, hopefully we will have gotten the one we are after, and sent a message that way, instead of just throwing bombs at anything that moves. An head for an eye is only going to escalate. Then it's a torso for an eye, then it's the whole family for the eye, etc. This only gives the religious fanatics a reason to think they are right. Treat them like the fu*king criminals they are, and go after them specificaly, being careful to have as few collateral injuries or deaths as possible, sends the message that they are just that.. criminals, not heros or martyrs.
*On 9/11 I got out the old Ike jacket and put it on. Maybe it was silly, but it seemed to be a way to say how I felt. On Veterans day I went to the old duffle bag and got out my garrison hat and issue shoes to wear to the parade. No part of the uniform between head and feet fit any longer. 50 years is enough time for things to change. When I joined in 1952 I was "RA all the way" but I was not sent to Korea and never placed in harms way, so I had never felt like a veteran. Somehow my service finally begans to feel as though it mattered.BJ
*No one who is responsible is going to come out and fight. And we can't just chase the Taliban down and kill them because they know the terrorists. Are the Taliban Al Quaida?
*>If I am not even close in figuring out what 'stepping up to the plate' really meansWhen fate and circumstances calls your name....you take your turn at bat..... and be accounted for. We all in one way or another get an opportunity to bat....some get a hit....some go out swinging...some just stand there and take the three strikes across the plate. Till your "up" you don't have a clue as to how well you'll do. .....tough guys sometimes freeze up.....little guys sometimes hit homeruns........
*Luka,as afr as israel goes the only reason they have not 'handled" there terrorist situation is because of diplomatic pressure from us. they would prefer to go on the offensive again them but we and other countries pressure them not to.
*Nothing like war to bring out the worst in people. When I read that Germany and Japan are mobilizing their armies for the first time since we dropped the Bomb made the back of my neck chill, like the devil himself was stretching from a long nap.And when I hear God used in the name of killing it makes me laugh. What is the most potent aspect of Christianity? Forgiveness. It is so righteous, so divine there is no force that can bend it.The simple fact is that we have become such a small world. Technology has brought us to the demi-god level, capable of even creating new forms of life. And these wonders, like the jet plane, can and are used for weapons in our never ending quest for individual power. With the curve of technological progess so steep, we cannot afford to use military power as the only arbiter of peace anymore. There are many, Many other solutions to this conflict outside of our military/industrial complex and many people willing to give their lives to accomplish it. Why don't they get even a voice?
*Teo Here's your forum, tell us what we should do. What I see we used words already, what is the next step? money? food? water? Daniel
*teo you stated"With the curve of technological progess so steep, we cannot afford to use military power as the only arbiter of peace anymore. There are many, Many other solutions to this conflict outside of our military/industrial complex and many people willing to give their lives to accomplish it. Why don't they get even a voice?"You forget these jerks offs not only used there voice they screamed. They couldnt afford military power so they "borrowed " some of our commercial aircraft and expressed their opinions on the WTC and the Pentegon. Yea I want to talk to these folks. I want to yell call them names while Im kicking them in the b--ls. the only voice I want to hear is them cry for mercy then kick them again and again and again and again... You need to listen to the cries of the families, kids w/o parents wives w/o husbands maybe listen and relisten to the phone recording of the husband calling his wife from the aircraft... yea i need to talk to these people in fact we as a country need to talk to the rest of the morons who would even think about such a thing. right now we our just introducing ourselves.
*Teo Oh By the way my son is one of those willing to give it all so we can have the freedom to have this forum. Right now he is over there defending YOUR'S and my freedom. some time talking don't cut it. Daniel
*ron: <<>>>who are we introducing ourselves to ? here's hoping we've got a better game plan for the end than we did in the Gulf War and Daniel: >>sometimes it don't.. but our history is full of times when we would have been a lot better off with diplomacy than bombs...
*Mike don't get me wrong I ant happy about this ether but this time words ant going to cut it. Can you say to someone who just wiped out your family "Let's sit down and talk about this" WE ARE FAMILY!!! I may not like all of my family but I will stand next to them when they are wronged. WE HAVE BEEN WRONGED!!!!!!
*geesh, dan... i'm all for wiping the taliban and osama off the face of the earth... what will replace them is the scary part...we screwed the pooch in 'nam.. we pulled off an admirable stalemate in korea....our foreign policy in regards to cuba is mostly the result of the influence of battista followers...our south american policy has sucked since the panama canal zone was created..... now your son is "over there"... are your grandchildren going to follow ?...if our foreign policy used some of the ideals of our own constitution as a starting point... we could travel the world with overnight bags instead of combat packs...or.. as they say in the middle east.. "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"... hah, hah, hah....sounds like good old american ideals to me....right up there with "might makes right"....
*I could debate political reasons for peace all night long and I'd know that I'm right and you'd know I was wrong, but that is not my point.In the past sixty years almost every invention we have created that has brought us so many wonderful things has also been manipulated to be used for weapons of mass destruction. It appears to be human nature. In the next sixty years we will see things we cannot dream of. It is not a far reaching logical conclusion that if/when they are used as weapons life will likely be a living hell. I happen to know that trust and forgiveness is also human nature. Fundamental change, one way or the other, is at hand. Ignorance is the real enemy.
*i Ignorance is the real enemyRight on, Teo. For the info junkie that I have always been, I'm still appalled at my ignorance re history of war. Learning the lessons lately, bigtime.I also agree w/you re:i Fundamental change, one way or the other, is at hand
*Mike, Teo, What are we to do ? Your points are well taken. As I said I'm not happy about this either. Do I want to see people die? Absolutely not. If we do nothing people will die ,if we do something people will die. We have to do something so less will die.The world is not an easy place to live in. I did not agree with Nam, I was to young to see Korea, I know we did right in WWII the civil war ,The revoltoinary war.I have seen the world slap US for forty years and we have done very little. I have one child. He volunteered to serve his country. We are not perfect but by the looks of things, we are better than the rest. Someone tell me the way to make the world perfect. Daniel
*well, this sounds a little naive.. but :if we spent the same amount of treasure on economic development in teh 3d world as we have in nicaragua, panama, lebannon, the gulf war and now afganistan.. we'd be way ahead in the fight to lift teh living standards of countries without hope..absolutely.. we have to have astrong military.. and we have to repond in kind to acts of aggression..but we seem to have forgotten the lessons of WWII.. after you win the war .. you have to win the peace.. rebuilding Europe with the Marshall Plan....and starting Japan on teh road to democracy.. were every bit as important to our future as winning the war itself....that is the lesson we keep forgetting...that is the type of foreign policy we should pursue..so your grandchildren.. mine.. the grandchildren of the middle east.. and of africa.. can live and prosper together...otherwise we are doomed to repeat this every generation..."speak softly.. carry a big stick" .. and develop agriculture and jobs....duh....
*Mike,what i meant by "introducing ourselves" is the world especially in the middle east has not seen the US pissed since pearl. so they kind of forgot what we're like when its personal. the gulf war was business oil ect. this is personal. So now the middle east gets to be introduced to a bunch of soft over fed spoiled and very pissed off Americans. once they come to grips with that then we will have peace.
*If there's any question about the stakes...KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - Despite a series of stunning setbacks that cost the Taliban their grip on the capital and deprived them of huge swaths of territory, Taliban supreme leader Mullah Mohammed Omar remained defiant in a BBC interview broadcast Thursday, saying he'd rather die than "join an evil government" with the country's former leader. The Taliban pullback from urban centers, he said, was part of a larger strategy that aims to destroy America. "If God's help is with us, this will happen within a short period of time - keep in mind this prediction," he said. "The real matter is the extinction of America, and God willing, it will fall to the ground."
*We have helped every country in the world at one time or an other and not with weapons. When you have an enemy that wants you dead as to look at you what do you do? we have spoken softly, now we must use the big stick we carry. I'm sure we will give to the Afgan people all the help they need if they want it. I'm sure what we leave will be better than what they had. Daniel
*Bottom line (mine anyway) It's too damn complicated...nothings going to change... and to maintain the status quo, and our way of life we MUST be the baddest guys on the world block.... Especially since these terrorist guys are starting to go nuculear. I say to go after them wherever they're at and with everything we've got. Once they get a working bomb they'll be more than happy to accept our hospitality and come here to set it off.
*Our biggest threat is extremists with nuclear capability. Fortunatly, it isn't as simple as hijacking airliners and using them as missles to launch a nuclear weapon.It seems to me the only real path for us is to stick to our real ideals and oppose dictatorships and support democracy instead of just pursuing the almighty dollar. The only 2 muslim countries who don't hate us - either the government or the people are the 2 democracies. So it will probably work with muslims too. Afghanistan has got to have a governemnt separate from religion. Does our anti nation building adminstration have the smarts to fix the real problems now that the war is nearly won?Mary
*i if we spent the same amount of treasure on economic development in teh 3d world as we have in nicaragua, panama, lebannon, the gulf war and now afganistan.. we'd be way ahead in the fight to lift teh living standards of countries without hope.. Can you please explain why this is the job of the US? Survival of the fittest I say...
*mike...read some history... it's our job cause we're the only one still standing..what kind of economy do you think we'd have today if we didn't have trading partners in Europe & Japan... that's how we won the peace.. are you so short sighted that you can't see a benefit ?as JFK once said.. " a rising tide lifts all boats"where do you think the billions that comes out of middle east oil gets invested...? right here in the USAit's the economy , stupid !and it's a world economy.. so .. a better world means a better economy..... and.. a safer world for your kids.. u no... the little taras & mikeys...hah, hah, hah... whose job do u think it is ?y do u think Afganistan is so screwed up now?cause we used 'em as a surrogate to beat the russians.. then when they did the job.. we picked up our marbles and went home...time to pay the piper... and he always gets paid....
*I think the jump to war was a measured step to rally this country under Bush and slow the freefall of the economy. To that end, it worked beautifully. (You got to hand it to those Republicans, they do know how we love fireworks) However, we may be a bit safer from attack in the short run, but we have made no friends in the last few weeks and strained the resolve of our allies to a thin strand. In the long run we are that much closer to a bleak future of escalating conflicts.Yes, we should help build struggling nations. (Is it sharing the wealth or economic imperialism? Add the WTO and it gets really complicated.) No, I don't have THE answer and bombing someone to hell, beleive it or not, isn't an answer either. It just feels like one. It would be awesome if more people spent more time trying to figure the peaceful solution out instead of yelling at each other.
*Mike,IMHO, the USA owes the rest of the world ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Canada, Britain, and Austraila has always stuck by us, but other than that, thats it.You say its our job? I say BULLSHIT to that. My whole life the U.S. has been giving billions in aide to countries worldwide. When there were earthquakes or floods or other disasters, we sent millions in relief aide and sent relief workers to help out.When the U.S. has earthquakes, floods, fires, who helps us? No one. Has any country ever repaid even just 1/2 of their monetary debt that they owe us ? NO.If we never traded with anyone, and never gave any financial aide to anyone, guess what....this country would be a thousand times richer (at least) than it is today.The U.S. needs absolutely no one to trade with. We sell very little on the world market compared to what the world pushes on us to buy. Americans are the biggest consumers of all products produced worldwide. They need us way more than vice a versa!Everyone wants our money, but given the chance, they all would love to stick a knife in our backs. Time and time again I hear foriegners say that if the USA wants to be a TRUE WORLD POWER, then they need to understand them and their culture more. BULLSHIT!! We are a WORLD POWER. We got that way because our fathers and grandfathers worked their asses off. They sacrificed. They gave blood, sweat, and money to improve this country and ultimately improve our way of life.Foriegners have different beliefs and follow different doctrines. They've been fighting one another for centuries in Africa, South America, Asia, Middle East, and even parts of Europe, over stupid shit. As a result they have nothing. We got it all! They want it. Their govts. suck. Revolution after revolution only seems to keep the same dirty politicians in power. Why should it be the USA's responsibility to run their governments? We would do better to stay out of their govt. affairs so long as they are not a direct threat to us.I'm tired of seeing my tax money being used to help give aid to countries that would spit on us if given the chance. I'm tired of hearing foriegners who arrive in this country telling us that we need to be sensitive to their needs. We need to set up bilingual schools, billboards, TV stations, radio stations, etc. for our Spanish speaking bretheren. We need to be "in tune" to "Ebonics" for our inner city youth. We need to educate those illegals who cross into Texas and CA from Mexico. We need to obtain a deeper understanding of Islam and those who follow the teachings of Islam.To all of this I say again...BULLSHIT!! This country is great because we have ONE UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE...ENGLISH. Learn it or leave! This country was founded on CHRISTIAN BELIEFS, not Islamic. If you speak another language other than English...fine, but don't expect everyone in the U.S. to speak your language...on the contrary...you chose to become an American...then you chose to live by our laws. If you're not a Christian...fine also...but don't insist that we must learn your beliefs and customs at the expense of no longer practicing our own beliefs. Again...YOU CHOSE to become an American. America was founded on the belief of religious tolerance. I'll gladly tolerate you religious freedoms, so long as you tolerate mine. You don't like it...go back to the country you immigrated from. Unfortunately, most Third World countries only understand authoritative force. They fear it. They live their lives by it. When someone comes along and tries to compromise with them, they see this as weakness. They don't respect compromise...for if they themselves were strong enough..they would not compromise...they would take what they choose.The USA has tried to compromise with too many nations for too long. Where has it gotten us?It's time to show the world that we are not going to take any more shit from would-be self rulers. It's time to flex our muscle. It's time to eliminate ANYONE who would want to do the USA harm.Davo.
*Dang, I wish you guys wouldn't froth so much. It's gonna take a whole roll of paper towels to get this podium dry again.
*On the subject of the benefits of a world economy.........NAFTA was going to be "so great" for the American people...yeah, right.The more jobs we "export" out to foriegn countries, such as Mexico, South Korea, China and elsewhere, the smaller our own workforce is and the larger our unemployment registers become.As a result, too many people out of work...money is tight...less new products that will be purchased.Yeah, automotives can be made cheaper in Mexico, but look whats happening? They can't sell them. Even with 0 % interest rates, overall sales are still way down.Lots of talk about recession...no wonder...people out of work can't afford the high prices that CEO's are trying to push onto our economy.For too long, the "bottom line" has been just that...the almighty dollar profit margin...instead of retaining jobs. Thousands of jobs are lost weekly due to big corporation lay-offs.Whats gonna turn it around?...lower the interest rate another 1/4 point? NO. Give everybody another $300 tax break?...NO. A 100 point gain in the stock market? NO.To turn the economy around, you have to stimulate job growth. How? Eliminate all these "golden parachute umbrellas" that CEO's are promised. Put people back to work and at the same time lower your expected profit margin. Earn just 60 % profit instead of 360%. Quit exportation of jobs to other countries. No longer allow foriegn nationals to come into our country and OWN U.S. property that they ultimately exploit for their own country's gain. Who owns Hawii? The U.S. or Japan? How many banks in the U.S. are owned by the Dutch? How many universities are owned and controlled in the continental United States by Japan? I know for a fact that Japan owns and controls 2 state colleges, as well as a popular ski resot in the state of West Virginia. Does the money get reinvested here in the U.S.? I don't think so. I think they also control 2 coal mines. How much more?Germany controls Chrysler. Once they took control, how many jobs did they cut in the U.S.? TONS of jobs! It's time that this country controls its own wealth, natural resources, and job markets. Its time to put Big Business on notice that QUALITY JOBS rank higher than profit margins. Its time that our Fed. Govt. treat the U.S. oil companies as a large utility, and regulate their business so that they have a fixed profit margin that they cannot exceed. $1.35 a gallon for gasoline one month...$2.00 next month..$1.15 the next? What's up with this? Time to stop the gouging!!Cars made in Mexico with Mexican labor is way cheaper than with U.S. labor...did prices go down to benefit the American consumer? NO...prices increased...This gouging needs to stop.This recession has been brewing for years. Prices have been steadily rising...unemployment steadily rising, profits steadily rising due to outsourcing... the law of "checks & balances" sooner or later has to take over...and thats what is finally happening. A person flipping burgers at McDonalds making $6.00 an hour, who works on average 34 hours a week (40 hour weeks greatly discouraged by management due to having to pay out benefits to "full time" workers) brings home around $650 a month after taxes and such. How is this person going to afford a new, $20,000 auto, plus pay his monthly rent/mortgage, plus buy food, clothing, and have a few bucks left over for a night or two at the local bar or movie house? This person can't!! Remember...the largest group of consumers in the world are Americans...but if they no longer make affordable wages...then they will cut down on what they consume....the moral of this story...."Outsourcing" what were once good paying manufacturing jobs in the U.S. to Third World sweat shop labor that pays peanuts, in exchange for providing Americans with low paying, service oriented jobs... is not the formula for a strong economy. It is a formula for a WEAK American economy...and...if America's economy is in trouble, so will to that of the rest of the world, for their economies depend upon ours...NOT VICE A VERSA!Enough said.Davo.
*Davo,I respect your view and agree with it entirely........but I also agree with Mike's view concerning a world economy....and the two views seem diametrically opposed to one another.........oyyyyy, like Vinnie Barborasa ........."I'm so confused" On the other hand war is simple..... kill or be killed.....good guy/bad guy.......black/white........yin/yang.......maybe that's why we humans started the killing in the first place.....we are lazy and it was easier than the alternative
*Davo Tell us how you fell don't hold back.
*davo.... hah, hah, hah.... easy , big fella...yur economics 101 is a more like 99....if what you say is true ...what are your thots on the Marshall Plan ? (careful... trick question )
*Teo Ithink the Afgan people like us a bit more than they like the taliban, at least we wont beat them in the streets or shoot them in the town square. A little thought to pounder.... when you get a cold do you try to talk away the virus or take something to kill it? Money..... Man has looked to trade with others sence time began. some can grow food or hunt or build or heal or transport or....... I think you get my drift. I think we ALL like fire works ..4th of July come to mind. Daniel
*teo, so your saying its the republicans who attacked the WTC and killed 5K people just get start some fireworks and get the economy moving. if thats the case then fdr let the japanese bomb pearl to get the econmy going after the great depression, maybe Im wrong here but there wasnt that many people killed at pearl and those were military targets by a foreign govts military force not a group of fanatics who attacked civilian targets. "Strained the resolve of our allies", which allies is that the germans who sent troops , the brits, the japanese who want to send troops, the jordanians who are going to send troops the turks who?
*OK, FOUNDER'S RIGHTS HERE!Ladies and Gents, let's stick to facts:The Osama bin Laden Al Q'Aida organization attacked America with devastating results.1.We wept. 2.We're as pissed as America has ever been-like 12/8/41.3.Our sons and daughters are pursuing a noble and difficult mission in the armpit of the earth--again. 4.We're succeeding, as a Nation, over there.5. We--our country--are killing people through the instrument of our Military. The right people, and a very few of the wrong people.6. I am sorry for the killing of the few wrong people, but we tried. I rejoice at every terrorist-committed young man that we eliminate from the gene pool.7. I think the guys delivering food and other relief to the non-Taliban Afghanis are doing a terrific job.8. I hope the young trooper that gets to put a bullet in bin Asshole's head feels no regrets.JMHOTom Carter
*First off, I am familiar with history, and don't call me stupid. Lets at least try and discuss this like adults.We owe nothing to afghanistan. Period. They would be in far worse shape had USSR succeeded. As to European and Asian trade partners, we didn't bring ANY major trade partner from the stone age to civilization which is what is at stake here.Maybe Afg. will someday grow to have something to contribute to the world economy besides instability, if they have a product to sell, they will find a way to sell it.i time to pay the piper... and he always gets paidCliche pie-in the-sky BS.Haven't you learned your lesson about meddling in other countries affairs??? Grenada, Somalia, Vietnam, Afghanistan(the 1st time), Korea,--they were all winners, now weren't they?Explain why we were there to the families of those GIs that were dragged naked through the streets in Somalia. "We were just trying to help..." I don't subscribe to the concept that karma or fate determines that we owe it to them to support their people just because we're on top.It doesn't work that way. It amounts to NOTHING more than global welfare.
*AMEN! Well put on all counts.
*yeah , sure , you know your history...that's why you took this quote: > and assumed i was talking to you...nah.. you're not stupid .. just short sighted...and you didn't address the marshall plan.. just stepped around it..we screwed with afganistan.. and left a power vacumn there that put the taliban in power..we also abandoned the kurds in Iraq.. this is what winning the peace is about.. after you spend the blood and treasure to win the war, we have to follow thru and change the conditions that created the war, you admit to this , right... "all it takes for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing."..the US and it's partners in this conflict are the "good men"... war doesn't have a clock... and it doesn't have goal lines... it is the continuing interaction of people around the world... and our oceans no longer protect us from foreign evil....after we kill the bad guys.. we have to help create a world where the mikeys & taras of iran & afganistan & indonesia and china.. can work and live and raise their families.. so they don't have to turn to false leaders like hitler.... hussein... pol pot... or bin laden.....so ..rattle your sword...but .. when the last blood is drawn is when the real work begins....
*Sigh
*Tah dah! Here I am again. Hi Luka, bet you missed me, huh? Mr. Smith, a question I've wanted to ask you for some time now: seeing how you have a handle on all these hotspots we've created, what would you have done? Include in your answer Korea, the Middle East post-WWII to the present, the Balkin Peninsula, Turkey/Cyprus, Pakistan/India. Discuss the logical extent of a present day Marshall Plan.BONUS: discuss how our handling of Arafat diminished or exacerbated current events. Ready....START
*rich.. am i being baited heah ?good question...has definitely kept the talking heads going since the '60's.. why should we discuss it here ?let's start with Korea:absolutely.. intervention was the correct thing..even though Harry had to start it unilateraly..and Ike did the right thing in getting us out with a stalemate at Panmumjum... so Korea is one for the good guys....still is...now you..what about Korea ?
*i yeah , sure , you know your history... that's why you took this quote: > and assumed i was talking to youI fail to see the point in this. I assumed you were talking to me because you were responding to me. i after we kill the bad guys.. we have to help create a world where...Killing the bad guys is self-preservation and defense of ourselves and our allies. No, we don't HAVE TO help create a better world in other countries. If you would like to donate your time and money to that purpose, go for it. Personally I resent the gov't giving 2 Billion dollars a year to Egypt-a country that clearly fosters terrorism, anti-semitism, and anti US sentiment.PS: No comment on Somalia?
*Not baited, but just curious as to how you can sound so sure of yourself when talking about these 'US-induced hotspots'. To me, the whole thing is so convoluted that I don't think we can have a unifying foriegn policy without scrapping everything before now. And we sure aint gonna do dat. To do so would be too destabilizing and present opportunities to our foes as we leave ourselves open.I see our policy since before WWII like this: An anology would be a schoolkid who can fend for his own but has to run the gamut of playground bullies each and every day on the way home from school. Instead of coming up with a real solid plan of how he's gonna avoid this guy or that guy or kick their ass if need be, he justs deals with it as it comes. Oh, he might change his route day to day or avoid a certain area, but he hasn't really come up with a good plan that encompasses his every action and covers every likely situation 'tween his last class of the day and his front door to his house. That kid is the USA.I think much of the problem is the two party system we have. Basically, unless in war time, we have a new 'policy' every four years. The task is too large--'specially in today's gov--that no poli is gonna' tackle it. So it comes down to the Rand Corp and others to act as consulting contractors to foment policy. Guess where their interests lay? Private industry has not been charged with "We the people" like the gov so they serve their interests first. If that means pulling out before mission accomplished, tough. That's what you and I see but someone's mission WAS completed.I agree on Korea, although I think we could have prevented the advance to the rear at Choson. We surely anticipated the events leading up to it.Now come on...give it up. I want to hear about the Middle East post-WWII to the present.
*well.. rich.. just a little clarification.. i didn't say they were "us induced".. i said we were part of the problem.. instead of being part of the solution.. you said...part of the problem is indeed, the two party system...so much so that a president cannot always do what is right.. but mostly what he can do politcally..so.. a hard right guy could negotiate "peace with honor".. say feets do your thing and boogy outta 'nam.. but all LBJ could do was resign...dems aren't allowed to negotiate peace.. cause they get labeled as commie -soft..and nix could open china... but no dem. could ever do it...again.. the old spector of "who lost china"..now on to the middle east...we made a good start by getting the french & british out of egypt after they occupied the suez canal...we followed our "ideals " and sided with the nationalists of egypt instead of teh colonialists of britain & france...our main trouble isn't with israel.. that is just a peculiar situation.. our main problem began when we sided with colonialism and set up the shah instead of siding with the nationalists in iran...the former sick man of the east..turkey.. became our stuanchest ally in facing down the old russian empire and their dreams of expansion into india...seems like we should take a s a basic tenant that the nationalists (no matter what cloak they wear) are teh ones who ultimately prevail... and this falls in with "self determination".. a lesson we ignored in 'nam......the other basic problem with the middle east was in not preserving Lebannon....another bastion of democracy....which starts to bring us up to the modern era...and the third problem... not being clear in our diplomacy and our dealings with Iraq...we sent all the wrong signals and then had the gall to be surprised when Saddam took us at our word... thta we wouldn't challenge his grab of Kuwait...baisc failure of diplomacy.. and then the end game..not supporting the nationalist Kurds in their quest for self-determination.....ok .. lots of mistakes .. now what's the solution ?..greater minds than mine must have something...
*Nope, sorry Mike, I don't have anything either.heheheb : )
*Mike, could you please extrapolate a little on the Iraq scenario?I'm under the impression that Hussein felt we wouldn't risk another 'Nam fiasco with large-scale involvement in the middle east, and invaded Kuwait with that in mind. How did our foreign policy advocate or support his move beforehand?
*he told the american ambassador what he was going to do.. and did not receive a clear response from us.. after he invaded we said.. "that's not what we meant"here's an eyewitness account by an american lt. col.. http://www.sault.com/~danvaught/eyewitness01.htmlthen we sat on our hands until iron britches (maggie thatcher) shamed Poppy into doing something about it......the more you read about all of these situations , the more you realize how different things could have been in every case...that's what is so good about monday morning quarterbacking (or sunday morning).. the point is ...there is always something you can do differently...some are better , some are worse...here's a good example.. the reagan administration response to bombing a niteclub in germany... air strikes on quaddafi...and ignoring the "line of death".. good results.. basically .. Quaddafi decided he liked living better than terrorismhere's a bad example....our mission in lebannon.. unclear.. sending marines in with a bad mission statement and then denying them the ability to defend themselves... using battleships to shell suspected terrorist locations in Beirut...bad results .. many dead Marines.. and the "Paris of the mid-east ".... on the garbage heap of civilization
*Thanks for that link, it was VERY interesting!!I still don't agree with you position as to the US' role though.Iraq/Kuwait had been going at it diplomatically for some time, most seem to have thought that Kuwait would pay off Iraq, but Kuwait was standing by the Iraqi debt to them. From what I can see, the US were removed from the situation with the exception being the limited forces in Kuwait for advisory/training purposes.What we seem to have done, is simply, give Iraq enough rope to hang themselves with.In other words, we needed a reason to give Hussein a smackdown, and diminish the growing threat he posed in the middle east, especially with the knowledge that he was amassing a huge army and weapons of mass destruction. The invasion, and subsequent rape of Kuwait gave us enough reason in the eyes of the world to oppose Iraq without giving off the impression of meddling. Could the invasion be averted entirely? maybe/probably.We didn't stop it, but we didn't start it either. At least it pushed Hussein's war machine back 15 years, unfortunately it came at great expense to the Kuwaitis.(but they weren't helping the situation much either)JMHOsMike
*all true.. but we supported Iraq in their war against Iran.. and Hussein thought we were allies.. which is why he approached Ambassador Gaspie before hemade his final decision...then we denied we had given him a green lightmore of the old .. the enemy of my enemy is my friend.....during the '60's , almost every army class i was in had Iraqui student officers......so... just another example of winning a war and losing the peace.. pressure from us could have settled the Iraq / Kuwait dispute...??why is Egypt our ally ... and how can we keep her in our camp?
*i ??why is Egypt our ally ... and how can we keep her in our camp? Good question. That was my point about giving so much of our tax dollars away in foreign aid($2 billion/year to Egypt in particular).I don't think it's our duty to rehabilitate the 3rd world. Least of all countries that work against our principles, and have little to offer.As far as I see it there are only 3/4 reasons we are involved in the mideast at all.1) Protect our oil supply. Appropriately placed at #1.2) Protect ourselves/allies(specifically Isael) from rouge nations like Iraq, and more recently, rogue groups(Al Quaida).4) To avert the USSR's expansion. Obviously, that one's no longer valid.Self preservation as I see it, not philanthropy.
*i rouge nations Love it, Mike. Thanks!
*actually .. the reasons we are involved with any part of the world is because anything that happens in the world can effect any other part of the world....we can never be "fortress america " againbut anyways... egypt is our ally because we gained a special relationship with them twice.. in modern times....first when General Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal.. Britain & France occupied the canal zone.. we .. thru diplomacy & sabre rattling... forced them out..then when the Israeli's kicked their ass in the '67 war we brokered the peace.. especially thru teh efforts of Jimmy Carter....ie. we proved ourselves worthy of their trust...if we can deal honestly with other nations , we can gain their trust also...("winning the peace")..we fought two surrogate wars in the past twenty years.. one with Iran thru Iraq... and one with Russia thru Afganistan.. we walked away from both.. with the results that culminated on 911...now is our 2d chance to do the right thing in Afganistan.. and guess what... it ain't my idea.... it's your President & Mine... President Bush...they are determined to "win the peace " this time...let's see if they can pull it off..oh, ABTW, it's more than self -preservation... it's kind of like the mechanic telling you about your car..."you can pay me now.. or you can pay me later"if you don't want to spend the money on changing your oil.. you can spend your money on buying a new engine...if you don't want to support democracy in Egypt with our aid... you can spend blood and treasure fighting Egyptian fundamentalists who will take over if democracy loses...it ain't like if you ignore them, they will go away...ALL the problems of the world are OUR problems.. either now .. when they're small... or later when they become b LARGE....
*In Desert Storm, Hussein simply had no idea what he was dealing with, was simply overwhelmed by the firepower we threw at him. You'd think the Taliban would have learned from that. Did they really think they would fare better? That we could totally rout them without a single life lost is just amazing. After this, will there still be a country willing to take the U.S. on? As the richest nation on earth, we simply have too much available to throw at anyone who dares to attack us. Which worries me. Seems that nuclear attack is the only option left for them.
*You're welcome.
*I agree that what happens anywhere can affect anywhere else to some extent, as I've said, I believe one of the main reasons we're involved over there at all is to protect our(and our allies) interests. Egyptian fundamentalists are alive and well, and sponsored by the egyptian government. Probably with our money. What are we gaining?As far as "winning the peace" goes, we seem to be in agreement that instability there overflows to the rest of the world. I'm all for peace in te middle east, I just don't think we'll ever see it in our lifetimes, or several. What I think you're missing here is the religion factor.These countries have been at war with each other on and off for centuries for religious reasons. No amount of money will change that.You originally said:i if we spent the same amount of treasure on economic development in teh 3d world as we have in nicaragua, panama, lebannon, the gulf war and now afganistan.. we'd be way ahead in the fight to lift teh living standards of countries without hope.. And that's what got me going, who says we are responsible for the development of countries in "the fight to lift the living standards of countries without hope"? Who started this noble fight? How did we get elected as the caretakers of the world?Our forefathers fought, died, generally sacrificed all to start and develop America and set laws in order for this country to grow to the level it has. Why isn't it expected that any country go through this?If they want to succeed, they have to work for it, not ask the US for a meal ticket. If they would put away their ?000 yr old religious arguments and work together like humans, we'd all be better off. But it ain't gonna happen Mike. All we're doing by trying to raise everyone's standards of living is creating countries that behave like spoiled children.Best of intents, negative results.
*i Seems that nuclear attack is the only option left for them. Pretty spooky, eh? And that jerkoff is talking just that.
*i What I think you're missing here is the religion factor. Look in the mirror. You are missing it too. How do I know? Look below:i If they would put away their ?000 yr old religious arguments and work together like humans, we'd all be better off.That comment negates the entire spiritual quest billions of people have found necessary to allow them to achieve the humanity to which you allude.Even if you were to change your comment to something like, "We all can work together even if we believe different Gods." doesn't work either.True believers, of any religion, believe first that what the believe is the inerrant word. Either the believer accepts the entire word in toto, or, they do not believe. And all religions espouse that their God is the one, true God. Ergo, the believer says your god is a false god, but mine is the truth. The easy way out is for people to dispel all relgions to aid in the belief we'd all better off. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. One example: there are many colleges and universities, hospitals, food shelters, charities, etc which continue to provide enormous benefit to countless numbers of people set up under a religous org and staffed by workers of that faith. Should these be discounted?Last thing, while this is not directed soley at you MG, your's was the most recent post to assert the thought: by what measure can you ascertain 'negative results' in respect to our intentions? We only have to look at the most recent events--Afganis liberated from Taliban oppression--to see positve results. Yes, bad policy in some countries at sometimes, but does this mean we should quite our attempts?
*Mike, there is one reason and one reason only that the US spends all that money in the third world.It's an investment,like any other.Make their economy jump start and they become consumers. And consumers buy stuff and we sell stuff.We always need new markets, our founding fathers were buisnessmen first last and always.Vince
*Vincent ,your right the 1949 national security act was developed to help rebuild europe in order for our businesses to have a market for our goods. there was a huge depression/recession in the US when all those GI's returned and no jobs so it help create a market for us. but it also helps the other countries as well.
*i And all religions espouse that their God is the one, true God. Ergo, the believer says your god is a false god, but mine is the truth. No, actually some religions(Islam being one of them!!!) believe that we all have the same God, regardless of denomination. Christians believe JC was the son of God, Muslims believe Mohammed was the last prophet sent by God, Islam allows other beliefs under the SAME God.Religion as a concept, has wondeful value to society and developing civilizations. No argument there. Belief in a higher being gives developing people/communities a force to answer to. Some higher entity's rules to be followed if you will. "Why is it wrong to do that?"...."because GOD says so."-no argument, no election, no overthrow.The penalties for disobeying are harsher than any man could apply, and the rewards for obeying greater.My problem with religion more specifically involves organized religion, and the power levels it achieves. More specifically, in this case, countries run by religion. The division of church and state is non-existant, and this is where the problem is. It's the same as the crusades, just as misguided. i The easy way out is for people to dispel all relgions ...Not my position.Last thing, military force liberated the Afghani people, not charity.And the latest reports are that the NA is of course trying to secure control of Afghanistan. Those people will be no better off under the gangsters of the NA then they were under the Taliban. This brings us back to the concept that we are responsible for bringing the quality of life up to par there.Should we send in aid? Peacekeeping forces? Somalia all over again. My suggestion is that our presence is limited to the elimination and/or control of threats to our/our allies interests.Mike
*Point well made, and taken, Vincent. I think what we started out discussing the idea that we are responsible for bringing up the quality of life in 3rd world nations. It's good business sense, I agree, I think it's the philanthropy we're discussing.On the issue of business sense, I wonder how much return we've seen from investments in 3rd world countries(including humanitarian aid like food for Ethiopia, etc).Any economists out there?Mike
*well, mike... how much return on investment ?hmmm.. sort of depends on which investment we're discussing..most of the investment is in the form of lobbying congress & the administration.. then companies like ADM get an excellent return on their investment..now if you're talking about taxpayer return on investment...that is not always quantifiable...one way of measuring it woyuld be what standard of living do we enjoy.. well, in those terms.. i guess we get a pretty good return... now some will argue.. lets get government out of this business of economic development.. but that is specious.... because those leaders are the same ones who just voted for a 15 year retroactive give-back of $15 billion to some of the largest multinational american companies...so.. tax rebates to multi-national companies= goodbut economic development and relief funds to third world companies = badsomehow i don't think those equations stand the light of day...
*> Has any country ever repaid even just 1/2 of their monetary debt that they owe us ? NO. Actually, Finland paid in full.-- J.S.
*i My suggestion is that our presence is limited to the elimination and/or control of threats to our/our allies interests. If we had stayed there the first time, and done something about the quality of life over there, as well as the freedom of the individual, then butt luvin never would have gotten the foothold he got. He needed the taliban, and the taliban needed for us to step away and let them do whatever the hell they wanted to do.Is it in our interest to step away once again, and allow the next regime to take up where the last one left off ?
*J.S.That's a new one on me....I stand corrected. How much $$$did they actually pay?Davo.
*Islam does not believe it is ok to have other gods or that other gods are the same as Allah. Islam recognizes the other Levantine religions as having the same god as they do, which in fact they do. The Levantine religions are Judiasm, Chistianity, and Islam, created in that order, all from the ancient Jewish bible. It is the Levantine religions that believe only their god is the one true god and any other idea of divinity is evil. There are other religions that are not so exclusive and do not teach the fundamental hatred and intolerance of other religions.Most pagan religions were far more tolerant of other religions than any of the Levantines were and are. Pagans encountering the Levantines thought they recognized elements of their own god beliefs in the Levantine and accepted it as a valid and alternate way of life and belief. It is/was the levantines who refused to recongize the pagan religion's parallels to their own and insisted it was devil worship. This was true the world over whereever levantine religions encountered the pagans. The pagans were resonable and thought the levantines had every right to their beliefs, but the levantines murdered and forced the pagans to convert to their religion, incapable of seeing the parallels between the belief systems. Just as true of Islam as it was of Christianity. The Levantines are so narrow minded there are lots of sects that believe anyone who doesn't belive exactly as they do aren't true Christians or true muslims or true jews. bin Laden is one. Being muslim isn't enough for him - you must believe in his brand of extremism or you are evil. Falwell and Pat Robertson are some of ours. Evangelism - the insistance that all people must convert to your beliefs - is the problem.The problem is not so much religion. You simply cannot get rid of religion - it seems to be necessary to us as a species. The problem is theocracy - religion running government. Religion takes as much power as it possibly can in any way it can. If religion also runs the government, then it always turns into a vicious human rights abuser. It always has and it always will. Only a secular government that also respects and protects human rights, among those are the freedom of and from religion, does not become a breeding ground for revolt and terroism. But even then, there are those people so wedded to gaining power, they will still try to subvert a good government and institute their own brand of tyrany. Timothy McVeigh was such.It is all about power. Religion is just a weapon and it is humans who do all harm.Mary
*Mary, I'll buy some of what you say. But I'm most interested in how you may like to reconcile your two statements.i If religion also runs the government, then it always turns into a vicious human rights abuser.AND...i Religion is just a weapon and it is humans who do all harm.My thoughts are that you seem to say it is relgion which is the abuser in the former, but it is only a tool to be manipulated by the user in the latter.
*Mary,> The Pagans were resonable and thought the Levantines had every right to their beliefs...Tell that to the Romans! They were Pagans, and the Christians were all thrown to the lions! Those that were'nt eaten by the lions were either crucified on crosses, stoned, beaten, or sold into slavery.Davo.
*no, no, davo.. not the RULING pagans... it was the subjugated pagans that were reasonable....just like in japan.. before perry brought the fleet in to show them the error of their ways...sorta depends on who holds the cards...
*While the Romans seldom hesitated to use terror to subjugate people, the reality is that the Christians brought a lot of the Roman persecution on themselves. At that time, the Jews were such a collossal pain in the behind to the Romans mostly because they refused to call Caesar god and worship him - had this thing about only thier god being the only god. After expending a lot of resources trying to get the jews to pay what the Romans considered appropriate hommage to the ruler, it finally got thru to them that the jews just had this thing about calling Caesar god. So the Romans, being the pragmatists they were, made a special exemption for the jews. As long as they paid thier taxes and didn't revolt, the Jews didn't have to call caesar god (remember, pay unto caesar what is caesar's and to god what is god's). Along came the Christians who were a jewish sect and the Romans thought they were a branch of Judiasm, so the Romans were going to give them the same exemption extended to the Jews. But the Christians kept insisting they were NOT Jews, so the Romans enforced the law that applied to everybody else. In the Roman mind, the requirement to worship caesar as a god was akin to saying the pledge of allegiance here. To most of the other religions at the time, they had lots of lesser gods, similar to saints now, so adding another one the Romans decided they should pay homage to was like pledging allegiance to the Roman Empire - not really a big deal and it didn't mean they were any less loyal to their real gods. If you refused, you were considered disloyal and seditious to the government, unless you were a Jew. Kind of stupid of the Christians when put into perspective, and they didn't follow Jesus' prescription of give to caesar to what is caesar's, etc. They had a political out and refused to take it. So they pitted themselves delibertly against the law. The punishment was harsh, but it was no worse than the punishement meted out to anybody else who broke the law. They were harsh then and only really fair to Roman citizens. That's why St. Paul, a Roman citizen, was so protected.Mary
*Rich,I might not have been very clear. I meant in both cases religion when it is used in secular matters and used to govern people. In the latter statement, "Religion is just a weapon and it is humans who do all harm" I meant that it is people who use religion as a weapon against other people to force them to follow their own will for secular reasons. They use god as the excuse to have thier own way. Most recently, bin Laden uses Islam to rally people to his will so he can rule them and gain power that he otherwise could never gain on his own merits. My point is that there is never a case where a religion that runs and controls the goverment does not turn into a human rights abuser. The genius of keeping church and state completely separate is it keeps the church from abusing power and also keeps governments from abusing power by adding the power of god to its secular powers. Both are kept safer and religion is enhanced as well as governments. But the populace wins the most.Mary
*Mary,As I recall, St. Paul insisted that he was a Roman citizen, and therefore demanded to have a trial before a Roman court of law. This he was granted, and so he was protected by the Romans during his journey back to Rome.BUT, once in Rome, he had his trial and was found guilty of spreading Chrisitianity, and he was subsequently beheaded by the Romans for this "crime?"Davo.
*Mike Smith,I read the eyewitness account you listed in your post about the Gulf War. It made very good reading!Thanks.Davo.
*Davo,Before that, St. Paul had many years of having an easier time getting around because he was a Roman citizen and much more freedom in general. At that time, it had only been a few years since the Republic had fallen, the Caesars took power and many of the rights granted Romans from the Republic still existed for citizens, but not for the majority of peoples who lived under the Pax Romana and were not citizens. Citezen rights slowly eroded as the threat to Roman rule grew and as the empire expanded at during the same time period. There was a lot of early Christian activity that looked to the Roman's like sedition. The Romans allowed a lot of different religious activity so long as the religions didn't foment rebellion against the Roman rule. When it did, they were ruthless and vicious in their response - and created martyrs. Some 60 or so years after Christ, the Jews tried yet another rebellion against the Roman rule and the diaspora was the result. The Jews were just too much trouble. The Romans figured the only way they'd have peace was to make the Jews leave their homeland and not live in large populations. In retrospect, it was foolish of the Jews. They could not possibly win and lost their country because of it. I can understand their wanting the Roman yoke removed, but they had no real plan or ability to win and were crushed for thier trouble.MaryMary
*Mary, thanks for elaborating on the point.I'd just like to be crystal clear in the fact that I never said Islam allowed other gods, just other beliefs under the same God.I also did not call for the elimination of "religion", I just have issues with organized religion.If these points were already clear, I appologize for wasting space reiterating them.Mike
*i now if you're talking about taxpayer return on investment... And I am. i that is not always quantifiable...one way of measuring it would be what standard of living do we enjoy.. well, in those terms.. i guess we get a pretty good return...And quality of life is not quantifiable. There are happy as a clam peasants sowing rice paddies in cambodia, and malcontent millionaires.Quality of life and it's resultant happiness/contentment are completely subjective. And if you consider the negative effects of NAFTA, and it's subsequent cost in US labor, you have to consider all of the out of work americans due to cheap foreign labor/manufacturing. Their quality of life has clearly diminished.i so.. tax rebates to multi-national companies= good Umm, when exactly did I make that point, or lead you to believe that's how I felt? i but economic development and relief funds to third world companies = bad I somewhat agree.i somehow i don't think those equations stand the light of day... No, but then, it's your equation, not mine.Mike
*
I like that. A leader saying: "Follow me!". Your reaction?
TC