*
Thanks Pete, I think. I’d break out the dirty limericks, but I’d have to turn in my white gloves…
Seriously, though, I would like to thank everyone here who makes this place such an interesting, informative, and down right fun place. It takes all of us to make a real community, and the bad apples can only spoil it if we listen to them.
So congratulate youselves, and now get back to work!!
Replies
*
Thanks Pete, I think. I'd break out the dirty limericks, but I'd have to turn in my white gloves...
Seriously, though, I would like to thank everyone here who makes this place such an interesting, informative, and down right fun place. It takes all of us to make a real community, and the bad apples can only spoil it if we listen to them.
So congratulate youselves, and now get back to work!!
*
I agree Pete,
shes not bad considering she's an architect and a girl.
Ducking for cover...
*Careful guys, she'd got a lib streak. i should know. Might be too big for ya.
*
You gotta come up for air sometime...
I have a loooong memory and a devious mind, you are a marked man me mate... ;-)
*Pete...do you work? I was working at 1:42 pm Wed June 2nd when you were posting your "comment" Seems like alot of your posts are during the day. Must be working nites. :(
*
It's ben raining pretty hard past few days.
Pete
*Pete send some of that rain my way.........
*OK, I give up. I've seen lots of references to boogerin' in this forum, but I can't infer what it means.
*Rufus,I'm sorry but only the people who have forwarded Jack the money for the beer to be consumed at the annual breaktime picnic are allowed the inside story on boogerin.Gabe
*thats becuz they is bad spelars and can onlee spel faneticly.
*It has something to do with a framing nailer and a stopwatch.
*Now Andrew, just because she wears Birkenstocks, eats Granola (No milk, just Guiness), and works for a Higher Edumication Institushun... portrays only half the story. There's a whole other schitzy side to her... just ask some of the Perfessors, First Year students, and Grads!(Mark, got room in that hole? Diving for cover... :)
*I think he means she's an architect. You know some high idealled, no basis in reality, do gooder who scoffs at you for just trying to make a living.
*O.K. ENOUGH with the spelling. We are not English teachers, we just do all the things they can't. Most of us are happy to hunt and peck type, let alone proof read our work. Get Sean to install a spell check. PS, No shot at you Mark, when my bad spelling is pointed out it isn't usually you as I recall.
*JD, I'll move over to make room...
*Relax J.D.The jokes were directed to the word boogering and Mark was playing on it just like the rest of us.If we were all to pass a spelling test before being allowed to post, there wouldn't be a post to read. Your absolutely right, we're builders, not english majors.Anyone who would make fun or comment on someone else's spelling or grammar needs a life.Too nice of a day, to not have fun.Gabe
*I don't know that they're like that at all, but I did have to present a proposal to install new stairs and railings in front of a client's home in a "historic district" to a group of architects a few days ago. interestingly, the junk I was removing was installed by the former owner, an architect friend of theirs. They wondered why his house would be in such poor repair. I'm thinking -- architects DESIGN houses folks, they don't (usually) build or fix them. This one apparantly didn't know that unprotected wood in ground contact and strong sun disintegrates, even if pt. Trip hazard city.They also argued that I couldn't possibly build a 6-foot freespanning handrail that was strong enough. Hmmph. I was jumping up and down on the (mortised) handrail yesterday to reassure myself.
*near the stream...
*Actually, I was an english major. Not that it helped my spelling any. Of course, I wouldn't qualify as a builder, either.Rich Beckman
*
You don't have to duck George, I'm sure there was a compliment in there....somewhere. For the record, I only eat granola if it has lots and lots of chocolate in it. (why would anyone want to eat gravel???) As to my "other" side, well, I'm pretty sure I have all the prints and negatives, so we'll just leave it at that...
Sacred-cow tipping, Lisa
*JD,My dear boy, welcome to the madhouse. Wipe your feet at the door and get your facts in order, cause these guys - and I - will make you stand on em or eat em. I am sure that your remarks were meant in the freindly manner as all the others, but I don't know you so I can't be sure. For the record, I WORKED my way through school, since I was 17. The last 3 years of school I worked in a factory full time, carried 15-17 hours per semester (3+ gpa, thank you!), started restoration on my house and produced a family. So please do not think that I don't know what work is, or what it is to try to make a living.As to the architect end, I generally let disparaging remarks about my avocation slide by, just as I do with the remarks about contractors. They are irrelevant generalizations except to show that the two groups who should be allies and coworkers are in fact a very disfunctional family to the detrement to society and ourselves. But this is personally directed, so forgive me if I become a bit heated.I would be the first to state that architecture education in this country (and others from what I gather) is in crisis, that there is an entire, critical, facet of our field that is ignored or downplayed. If you had read my bio, you would know that it took over a decade and two schools for me to get to this point, simply because I would get fed up with their holier-than-thou attitude, and go work with my hands. I am still not done with the "book-learnin", I hope never to be. BUT, I fight constantly for a more balanced curriculum, constantly questioning students and professors when they ignore such basics as structure, mechanicals, maintenance in their projects. I also get a lot of flack because of it, but I feel very strongly that these elements are just as important to design as siting, massing, form, spatial flow, context, and all of the other elements that must be considered. I hardly think that I am not reality based and if I have high ideals, then I also have high standards, and I hold myself to them.Also, so that no one can ever claim that I misrepresented myself, I am not a registered architect. I have the schooling, but not the practical experience to become registered. I am working in architectural academia because I must support my family, and working to gain the neccessary experience with a designer/builder would not allow me to provide for my daughter. Eventually this will change. Buildings have been my passion all my life, and architecture is my avocation. I will always consider myself an architect, no matter how I happen to be earning my living. I am certainly aware of my limitations, that is one reason I spend a lot of time here. I feel that a person who cannot build, or at least conceptualize all of the stages and proccesses, is not an architect, no matter their "license." So I learn from wherever I can to become a better designer, and eventually, builder. By the by, I am and always will be the kind of person who gets down in the trenches at every stage, because architecture is a physical as well as mental creation. Just ask my husband, who has been living in a construction zone for nearly a decade.If you have reached the end of this little rant, then thank you for listening. The architecture profession has a lot to answer for, but so do the builders. Considering that very little of the housing (and even commercial) stock in this country was actually designed by an architect, and considering how MUCH garbage, wasted resources,and just plain tacky and shoddy building is going on, don't throw stones - you live in a glass house. The point is not to lay blame, but to figure out how to make the future better, for all of us.I'll quit now, Joe will be irritated as it is...
*
Nice to see a little passion in a reply...aside from a flame fest, (I wouldn't call this a flame...too logical and grounded in truth).
I have questions Lisa. I was enrolled in A fine arts route to architecture before I started my business, and after scanning the present situation I decided against attending a single class. I won't get into why, but I have a hunch my reasons have a lot to do with why you feel that architecture is in cricis at this moment.
What would be your first 3 steps to reforming the field of architecture? (aside from of course banning slave labour for 3 years prior to calling yourself an architect).
L
*
Lawrence,
My answer to you started getting long and out of hand, I will clean it up and post tomorrow.
Eshewing obsfucation, Lisa
*
Lisa, plenty of compliments, or I would have said Miller on your Granola... or worse yet, Molson!
My offer is still open, you can work here for the summer, and I'll match the University's $1.70/hour.
Same deal, you buy lunch, I'll buy the coffee.
(If you think, I'd offer to buy the Guiness...)
JD's alright... he's sensitive now that a suit and tie have replaced a toolbelt and hammer. What's the difference between a PM and an Arkytech? (Mark, is the spelling right?)
*I think it's right, check with Lisa, it originated from her " small and sticky " accomplice.
*Hey!! It's getting a bit crowded in here!!
*
spell check questions answered.
in netscape, hit CTRL-M. this opens your mail program. enter the text of your breaktime
reply. run spell check in netscape mail (CTRL-K). then select all (CTRL-A), copy
(CTRL-C), and paste into message box in breaktime with CTRL-V.
I know it sounds like a cop-out, but you have no idea how buggy, oversized, and annoying a
webpage equipped with spell-check would be. if anyone knows of any such
implementations that actually work, please let me know.
sean.
*Lawrence,I'm sorry to have taken so long to get back with you...Here are my top three quick and dirty suggestions for improving architectural education. I don't think they are anything original, just common sense. The biggest problem I see in both academia and the profession (and the trades come to think, remember "Mr. Smith") is the elitist attitude that many people have. Unfortunately, I don't see a solution other than outliving it. More open collaboration between the "architects" and the "builders" in various publications, in schools, in professional organizations, would help speed the process. The ARE has been computerized recently, supposedly making it easier to take, but the cost has also increased so dramatically that the number of people taking it has dropped alarmingly. Also, there is currently much discussion on how to fix the internship programs. Quite frankly I think the easiest way to fix both problems is to allow people without the "degree" to sit the exam. Proof of coursework in theory, history, design, and proof of experience in building should qualify you to sit the exam. If you pass, then you should know enough to put your name and reputation at stake. If you don't know enough, then you don't pass. This would encourage students to look for building jobs and builders to take courswork. The point should be to bring the facets of the industry closer together, rather than segregating them further.In the architectural education, I would suggeset:1) More emphasis on liberal arts skills, particularly writing and speaking. I don't care how well you draw, most of the world communicates through the written and spoken word. If you can't communicate verbally your clients will not respect or understand you. Business skills certainly, though this seems to be such a quickly changing part of any profession, OTJ training will still probably be necessary. All these things can be "included" in the regular curriculum. There is NO reason writing and speaking cannot be a part of the studio experience, nor budgeting a project or what-have-you. To some extent this is being addressed as architecture schools are going to a graduate oriented curriculum. 2)Less studio time and more apprenticeship/practical building time. It is indeed shameful that architects can come out of school with little understanding of structure, detailing, and systems, that they have never wrestled with that powerful demon-site conditions. I don't think that each student needs to become a master builder, or know the details of all trades, but there needs to be a more firm understanding of building as a process, and I feel this can only be done in person, physically. This is where the value of careful budgeting, meticulous detailing, and an understanding of scheduling will be most fully appreciated. So, history is important, theory is important, but nothing compares to getting out and EXPLORING buildings, of all shapes and sizes and qualities. Something that looks great in a magazine or history book might be murder to live/work/play/learn in. Architecture is not a third person or detached activity. It should involve all the senses and can only really be learned in person.3)Less emphasis on architecture for "art"s sake and more on architecture as place, particularly people place. Typography, typology, morphology. Architecture schools go on and on about this or that "ism", but not enough about livability, functionality (for those highly varied soggy bags of mostly water that inhabit them, not for some mythical everyman who never needs to pee in the middle of the night), resource and social responsibility, adaptability and repairability. Schools seem to be intent on turning out creators of monuments and statements, not comfortable, efficient, pleasant, and yes, inspiring places. Don't get me wrong, we do need monuments, just not on every block! Well, I expect this got a little long.What are your ideas?Lisa
*
Webmeister: W-E-B-S-T-E-R-S. Not a program, a book.
(Gads, did he say... "Book"... gasp!) I keep one near the stream of consciousness... now if it could only type without dyslexia!
*Not bad... for a girl. :))
*Ug, slah-and-burn programming solutions!Another good word: PROOFREADINGI used to put a Post-It® up of words I had trouble with to remind me to be extra careful. Spelling has somehow gotten harder as I've gotten older -- probably because of thse damn spellcheckers.I have seen many utilities that promise to check spelling wherever you may be, in any appplication. You could also do a macro or script to automate what Sean suggests. I doubt you want -Taunton- checking your spelling anyway -- ever seen one of their books?? :)
*
PTHBBPTHBBPTHBBBPTHBBB!!!!! :-)
*
Great Ideas Lisa! Sorry for the delay…very busy.
Particularly about opening the exam to builders…I’ve personally never heard that idea mentioned by anyone. I would suggest keep it open and base the exam on basic fundamentals that the builders,(junior designers), would have a chance to pass…and then offer a 2 year course for them to catch up on the technicals, standards, practices and terms that should be standardized.
Time on site should also be a requirement, and I believe that architecture should be broken up into specialties that would allow the architects to get very good at certain types of projects, rather than just do a mediocre job at many different types of construction. ie: commercial over 5000, under 5000, residential general, residential new concept development, residential renissaince (high end), as well as community planning etc. This specialization would create an atmosphere where new ideas and concepts could flourish and allow people to do spectacular work inside a 40 hour week and have a family as well as time to enjoy their life. There is simply too much information in the field for any one person to absorb and put into practice. Look at Frank Lloyd Wright. People look to him as the american architect for the 20’th century, I look at him as someone who built pretty buildings with leaky roofs.
Personally, I am very against regulation for the sake of order. Functionality and art can fit together in a structure and each is necessary. When I look at residential housing and the over regulation and the difficulty anyone faces to create something different than the norm, a few glaring problems become apparent. Building departments have no interest in looking at new concepts and deciding on their merits. This goes for government agencies that oversee them as well. They simply don’t have funding or specialization to deal with it. For this reason residential housing has not changed dramatically since the days of FLW.
I did not attend University for Architecture, and probably never will. I had no interest in learning how “it has always been done”, and don’t wish to pollute my ideas with regulations and critiques from people who cannot decide for themselves whether they like something or not. It is my intention to fight the established architectural and building standards community’s affinity for mediocre, artless and antiquated building standards.
I will do it from the outside of their organization.
Please don’t get me wrong. Some of my best friends and trusted advisors in the world are architects. Good architects have my respect. Those that cut and paste details from technical manuals, and borrow details from others, (even if they send them a dollar), garner my wrath.
*George,I think she's choking on her Granola.
*Mark,That was actually a series of words but she had a few too many Millers on her granola.Pete
*
Miller!! GRRRRR!!! Pete, don't you know that's canoe beer at best? And I don't mean beer that should be drunk in a canoe... And for the record fellas - I don't even OWN any Birks.
*
First "Shoeless Joe Jackson", now...
*
Lawrence,
I see that we are basically in agreement, which is nice. Now if only the AIA would listen...
I can't claim the idea of open testing, I've been hearing it for years from builders, and also here on BT.
I think the 2 year idea of yours is what internships were supposed to be. They aren't anymore and there is actually a great deal of hustle and bustle these days on how or whether to "fix" internships. Personally I would abolish them as now they just provide large firms with a steady supply of slaves. If a graduate really wants to follow this as a career, she/he will look for a job that will give her/him the skills to do so, no need to "require" it.
By all means, work from under/outside the "system". As far as I can see, half the current problems stem from the isolation of architects, builders, and the general public. There is no reason every single builder needs to have an architecture degree or license. But don't let that keep you from learning about the other areas of design. Learning "how something has always been done" is very useful. If you do any historical preservation/restoration or are trying to decide whether something is worth preservation/restoration you will need it. If you want to know wether your brilliant idea that came to you at three am has ever been done before and did it work, you will need it. If you want to proove to the inspector/project manager/client that your idea is better, you will need it. Learning about something doesn't mean you have to use it. Which is part of the problem with architecture and trade education, in my ever-so-humble opinion.
I also chaff at overregulation, especially in residential construction. But since most builders (at least around here) will only build to "minimums", and they will skimp on that, I am not sure I want to abolish them either. I feel that the best solution is to educate the buyers to insist on better materials and techniques, educate moneylenders on the financial advantages of new or alternative materials and technologies, educate builders on better design, and designers on better building. If the consumers and money people want changes, the regulatory bodies will toe the line, pronto.
Hacks, in any field, are pond scum.
*
Good points Lisa.
I'll just leave it at this. Does architecture have to be based in the past for aesthetics, and design traits? What I speak of is what if an Idea doesn't conform to stipulated design rules?...Is it any less relevant a design than a knock off of a classical masterpiece...which must have been different in it's time, since it is being emulated even today!
Engineering principals and inspired techniques, I will study and research to learn from the mistakes and sucesses of the past. All the rest should be created anew. There just doesn't seem to be enough variety about. Mabee I'm young and have much to learn, but I do believe that an original idea can exist.
*The practice of architecture has come to be almost irrelevant. As architects have been busy perpetuating a system designed to protect their practice, developers have taken over the shaping of the built environment. On the level of ordinary individual houses, architects have priced themselves out of competition with draftsmen and sellers of canned plans. They can only offer some sort of aesthetic vision at a large cost both in their fees, often cost based, and the cost of the project which they have neither the skills or motivation to keep under control.On a greater level they have created an educational system that keeps the architectural student removed not only from the mainstream of the real world, but also from the mainstream of academia. A doctor must study pre-med, a lawyer, pre-law. An architect goes immediately into a 5 year program controlled entirely by other architects, who have no interest in teaching fundimental skills in the liberal or fine arts. The studio system within architectural education excludes any serious study of architctural history, architectural theory, or construction practice. Architectural schools are therefore nothing more than glorified trade schools, protected by licenising requirements. The graduate must then serve an aprenticeship, that insures architectral firms a supply of university trained draftsmen at cheap prices. From there the young architect enters a system that produces few stars and many grunts. The stars who achieve their status inspite of, rather than because of, this system are invariably white males. (Quick, name a woman architect who is not in a principal in a firm with a man...Now, name a dead woman architect. To the first I have no answer, all important women today in architecture are on the theoretical side. To the second, I can only think of Julia Morgan.) The result is a system that perpetuates male egos, does not allow architects to think of themselves as part of a larger system, teaches nothing of construction or alternative methods, and actually removes them from thier profession as art.
*
Mike, I am sorry to say that I think you are right. In general. There do seem to be a lot of fine designers out there though, and teachers as well. This is a case where the whole is less than the sum of its parts.
Since the rest of this got a lot long, I'll put it in this attachment to keep Joe and company happy.
By the way, as for your call on major women in the field, right on, although I have answers for you (US only I am ashamed to say). Living - Maya Lin, Elizabeth Wright Ingram and Leslie Kanes Weisman (both more academic now, but that may be age), Ada Louise Huxtable has been influencing architects and planners for decades, but I guess she is an academic; Dead - Mary Jane Colter (of course, Julia Morgan). In the future? Me of course!
*
Lisa,
I don't know who you are or why you get so many postings, but I like you already. Sounds like you can hold up your end. Don't take any crap form anyone. Talent,vision, and production win out over whining,generalizing, and finger pointing in my book.
Lots of poor Architects, lots of poor builders We all live in that proverbial glass house.
Our work is our record. When I'm done with the job I know it will outlive me, and when some distant future remodeler tears it apart or repairs it they'll say "Those old timers sure knew what they were doing".
Sounds like you design things in the same way. Keep it up.
Richard Max
*Lisa,Have you read Tom Wofe's "From Bahaus to Our House"? If so, what do you think? I love his writing (just finished "A Man In Full", which isn't that great) but I have no idea how accurate a picture of architects he paints...
*Lisa,In 1991 'Architectural Digest' put out a guide to the 100 top architects. The primary reasons for inclusion in the list were being famous and designing houses. Of the 100, the number of firms headed by women...0. The number of firms with women principals...7. Denise Scott Brown categorizes the profession as "dominated by upper-class males." Her article "Sexism and the Star System in Architecture" is unpublished. Ada Louise Huxtable is a critic and not an architect. She writes primarily for the general public, and although she has been a considerable influence in general, I don't think her contribution to architectural theory is significant. "The Unreal America" is, in my opinion, a light weight piece that misses the point that is made much better and earlier in numerious writings such as those collected by Michael Sorkin in "Variations on a Theme Park."Recently on the newsgroup alt.architecture someone (probably a student) posted a question seeking information on how to design a library. Such is the state of architectural education that students don't even know how to use libraries. Bryan,Tom Wolfe's book makes some valid points about the failures of architecture, but I think he is off the mark in placing the blame. There are a lot more serious looks at the current state of architectural practiceMike
*
Lisa,
You'd better be careful. I'm actually starting to like like you. You almost fit in like one of the guys. Especially since I've seen you writing poems about boogerin'.
Pete