Hey all, I was browsing through a Means Residential cost book yesterday, looking up finish carpentry pricing….
Unless I read wrong, it seems they price casing a door ( 1 side, two legs & head) at considerably more than triming a window (stool, apron, casing)….
I’ve never used the book much, & while it’s very detailed….for example, check the several pages of different crew types/costs….given things like the above discrepency (I figure roughly twice as long to do the window, with real returns on the apron & sill, as to case out the door) I wonder just how useful it is……
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I have the Means "Residential Detailed Costs" from 2000.
Just looking quickly, I don't see an entry for casing doors or trimming windows. I do see a per foot price for casing and aprons, and lots of other trim.
I do find lots of seemingly contradictory info. This might exist because the people they gather the info from won't always fit their numbers into the same categories.
When I find contradictions, I try to go with the higher price.
And I've never trusted the book for material prices.
I find the book to be extremely useful, especially for jobs I've never done before.
It has certainly paid for itself a few times over.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Like Rich said the contradictions are the worst part about those books for me.
I can deal with the fact that the prices may be be regional or based on a lot of factors that are not present on my jobs.
What gets me is when you find a price for pouring a 4" slab with vapor barrier, gravel sub-base, and WWM for $5/ft. Then you add up the prices for 1 ft. of vb, gravel, WWM, and concrete and the total is something like $3.97. I never know if I the assembly I'm pricing is similar to the assembly that Means or Craftsman is assuming.
Still they can be a lot better than a shot in the dark.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
No time to look in the book myself for an intrepretation View Image(I'm on a lunch break and I'm on the phone) but check to see what "Unit" they are talking about. One might be Ea. (each) while the other might be in LF (lineal feet). And also remember as far as interior trim is concerned there are two sides to a door and only one side to a window.
And for what it's worth we find that for interior work the data set in National Renovation & Insurance Repair Estimator is much more thorough and robust that what you find in the Means cost books.
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Okay JRnBJ looking in the books this evening what I found was:
As I mentioned earlier interior door opening have two sides so I'm thinking for that that to make sense it really should read 2 heads and 4 sides. That totals 6 pieces. Versus the window trim which reads....
That 6 pieces for a door @ 1 hr. 21-1/2 min. versus 5-8 smaller pieces for a window at 1 hr. 20 min. Nah, that doesn't seem right. I would have to say I think I agree with you that windows should take a little longer than a door. There's more cutting work involved.
Now the National Renovation & Insurance Repair Estimator that I mentioned earlier doesn't give you a figure for a door or window opening. They give you a figure called: Install Molding; window or door casing per LF (.041 labor hrs per LF) and they give you figures separate figures for Stool (.058 labor hrs per LF) and Apron (.049 labor hrs per LF).
The numbers we use in my company are so close to those that they are not worth mentioning but what we do do is use those figures in Assemblies for typical windows opening or typical door openings that we often install. And that reminds me that while it is okay to use the numbers you get from a cost book as a "starter" you should really develop your own accurate numbers for those tasks.
Now regardless of the figure you come up with for a "benchmark" installation either per opening or per lf you do have to keep in mind the conditions that bump those benchmarks up (or down). For instance on a house the troops recently did we had to scribe a filler for behind the casing since the interior walls on the ground floor of the house were all this wavy rough stucco so all the installations on the ground floor were bumped up in Labor hours to account for the additional time they would take over an average typical window trim installation.
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These books are references and not be taken as 'industry standard'. I can't remember how many times I hear people in our business say - no two jobs are alike. So, how in the world can anyone conduct their business based on 'Means data'.
Read the preface or foreword of these books and it'll say how the data is compiled and a fine print that says 'use at your own risk' cause we don't have a clue if this book applies to your immediate situation. Did Means do a job walk and studied the plans and specif like I have? Mean's will not know if my job is 50 minutes to the nearest Home Depo or that my sink faucet is 3 stories high in a downtown area with no street parking.
Use Means with your own experience and know what is left out of numbers. Use Means alone and prey your job fits their meaning of 'average job condition'