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I’m having some logging done and am fortunate enough to have some beautiful, old growth ash that I’m having saw and kiln-dried for flooring. Because I’m a glutton for punishment (and I’m cheap), I don’t want to pay $50/hour to have this milled into flooring.
I’m thinking about buying a heavy duty planer (Jet, Powermatic, or Delta) for surfacing, then running the tongues and grooves on the ash with a dado set on my Jet cabinet saw.
Am I crazy? There is 3500 square feet (approximately 11,000 lineal feet) of flooring to mill, but I won’t have to do it all at once. I’m hoping to have the ash edge-joined so I have a surface to start from.
Does anyone know of any molding-type machines (I’ve looked at the standards I could think of) that would plane and run the t/g on the flooring?
Any insight is appreciate. It’s going to be one HUGE pile of ash…
s.
Replies
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Honey? Honey? Have you seen my lithium drip? I know it's around here somewhere! Now, where did I leave that straitjacket? Seriously, Shawn, I'm sure what you are proposing is technically possible, but it would be incredibly time-consuming and, frankly, more expensive than you think. Consider how much you will spend time-wise (your time is money, right?), electricity (11,000 linear feet means your machinery is going to be going full-tilt for many hours) blades and bits (no one is giving those away, right?) and the wear and tear on your machinery (if you don't have commercial grade stuff, you're really going to be pushing your machines). I milled about 50 linear feet just to get an exact match on some flooring I already had. Resaw, joint, plane, cut tongue and groove with a router table, sand, lay, finish 8 hours. Now multiple x 11,000. Just my thoughts, though. There are folks here with a lot more experience.
*Jay-believe me, I've had those thoughts. But I keep coming back to one basic problem -- does it make more sense for me to pay $50/hour to someone else to do this all at once (after the wood is kiln-dried next month), or does it make more sense to do it piecemeal as I need the material. I'll need it in relatively small increments -- 150 - 300 square feet.Assuming it's edge-joined and (hopefully) ripped to width already, I'm looking at planing (with a 15", Delta or Jet 3hp planer) then running the flooring through a cabinet saw (three passes per piece, two for the tongue, one for the groove). If I get fancy, I suppose I could relieve the bottoms a little, but I doubt I'm that fancy.I know there's a local operation around here that does milling for $1.25/lineal foot. They use a CNC floor milling machine that does it all in one pass (after it's planed to within 1/16" of final size). That's an option, but damn is that expensive!I keep coming back to cost -- do I want to spend $X thousands of dollars for flooring, or spend $X for tools that I get to keep.Where is that lithium...s.
*If you want to spend money on tooling, then get a shaper and power feeder to do this job.
*You can do it - it would also be a good excuse to buy a shaper - make the tongue and groove go faster and more accurate - it'll take time, but if you got it, it's a good way to spend it - if you're set up decently, you can do a rooms' worth over a weekend - you'll probably be dealing with that pile of boards for 2-3-4 years, so make sure the storage conditions are good - that jointed edge is important and will make the rest of the job much easier - I keep a jack (hand) plane handy and ease the top edge on both sides before installation - good luck, DOUD
*I wonder how much the mill can mill in an hour.. My father has 40,000 board feet of oak and maple sitting on a hill in Tennessee and I considered a home milling operation to use it for flooring in our house. The sad fact is that I would spend much more money and frustration to get myself properly tooled for this job. We have planers, but running the tongue and grooves is a different story. Also consider that the flooring tongue and groove is engineered specifically for floors, the standard tongue and groove profiles would not be advisable. There has to be allowance for expansion built into the joint. I don't wish to discourage you as I was hell bent to do it as well.Jon
*Thanks for everybody's input. I also was considering the shaper/power feeder combo. Anyone have any suggestions for a good HD shaper for this? I've seen Delta's, but at $1800 that's tough. I know Jet makes a couple of models, but I'm sure I'd destroy anything that's not industrial duty milling this much flooring. Some of the ash is old growth, and I'm sure it's hard as a rock.Jon -- you raise the most important point of all this, which may be the deciding factor. If the mill is setup with a flooring-specific milling operation, they might be fast enough to justify the cost. I need to determine that before I make any decisions. The mill sells hardwood flooring, so I assume they have a decent setup.David -- you also hit the nail on the head about this being a good excuse to buy a shaper (and a planer, if I play my cards right)!s.
*I don't remember if it was here at Breaktime or in a magazine somewhere that I read a story of a guy building his own home who refused to let subs do any of the work on the house. I'm pretty sure it was during the stage of milling his own hardwood flooring for the place that his frustrated wife finally packed her bags and said "Enough already !" and left the guy. Just a thought.
*Shawn,Don't forget dust collection with big capacity.
*Tim-now that's something to think about!s.
*Shawn, didn't you have the wife sign a prenuptial DIY agreement?
*I'm kinda with the other guys in thinking you've bitten off a lot more work than you think. But if you do go ahead and do it yourself -The Delta shaper is not a bad one for $1,800. If you want to save a few bucks and buy a cheap one, you'll pay for it in the end. Don't make it any harder on yourself than you have to. Buy more than one bit set, and check the fit often. You don't want to go through the milling process and find that the cutters wore too much and half the boards won't mate with one another. You could really get your "ash" in a bind that way. (Sorry, couldn't resist)Buy extra planer blades when you buy the planer. Watch that the thicknesses of the boards don't vary. And last, but not least, post some pictures if you do this. Of the tools, not the floor.................(-:
*Another option:http://www.woodmastertools.com/FWIW, i already have a full woodworking shop and still would pay to have this done. I tried to save some money getting a thousand board feet of exotics delivered rough instead of my usual 7/8" H & M--gross miscalculation on my part, even with an employee handling the outfeed side of the planer. Completely ruined a set of planer blades, too, and the bearings went not too long after. If you do only a couple hundred feet at at time, you'll have to duplicate the set-up from session to session and error creeps in. If you have to have your cutters sharpened in the middle of the job, the profiles may not match the former work. If you get all the lumber milled at once, you can sort for color and figure. The time you spend won't result in any WOW! factor, just look like a mill job when it's done, if you're lucky. What if you spent that time milling your own special window and door casing? You could still monetarily justify the planer and shaper and sliding compound miter saw, and get WOW!
*Jim-I should have, but I doubt she would have signed. We went from living in a 2,000 square foot town house outside DC to a 9,000 square foot barn conversion in Vermont. I assumed she knew that having that much space would guarantee that the house is never finished!s.
*splintergroupie-thanks for the link. I called the company earlier today to order a catalogue, but they didn't list a website address.I just got off the phone with a rep at the company and this looks like exactly what I need. 18" planer, gang rip capacity (no jointing and running boards through the table saw), and t/g in one pass. $2,050 + shipping. Hard to beat.Thanks again.s.
*Check the want-ads for these too. I see them (sometimes under the Foley Belsaw name) advertised used a few times a year in my local paper. Some companies will also give you a list of referrals near to your location so you can see one in action. There was also a message board at one of the sites i saw when looking for that link for you--might be worth a look.Hat's off, best of luck, and don't forget the Ibuprofen...
*one correction on my earlier post -- the t/g is not milled in one pass, it's milled in two passes. Boards are run (with guide rails) vertically, which seems weird, first the groove then the tongue.The first batch of ash should be sawn and dried in 45-60 days, so if anyone is interested in seeing the results (or hearing if I'm divorced), let me know and I'll post something or email. ([email protected])Thanks for everyone's insight -- everything was GREATLY appreciated. Just goes to show how valuable a message board like this can be.s.
*Shawn,I like your enthusiasm. Good luck.Planed up some green ash last weekend, for horse stalls, that I milled myself 15 years ago. Very hard heavy lumber. Should make very durable flooring.
*Jim-enthusiasm is probably a poor substitute for common sense, but I'm willing to test that hypothesis. Ash around here (central Vermont) is great. Our ash is particularly good (mostly old growth, tight growth rings, great color, and BIG trees). I have two ash planks I use for staging and they take a beating. Mills pay next to nothing for ash -- even the best stuff -- so the ash stays and the veneer maple goes to the mill to pay for my new 18" Woodmaster!s.
*Are you going to T&G the ends? or the hell with it?
*Shawn-We just bought ash flooring from a hardwood supplier in Burlington for under $2 a board foot. 3-4-5 inch widths and beautifully milled. North End Hardwoods is the name of the outfit. Maybe they would trade you. Good luck.
*Shawn, well I'm doing it! I have 916 bd. ft. of beautiful oak burl that is slowly being milled with about 1500 bd. ft. of hard maple and a few hundred ft. of Paduak as I do other projects. (I'm building a 5000 sq.ft. timberframe) when I get tired of the noise and sawdust I stop and work on something else. Before I started this project I told my wife that it would take 10 years to finish I got her approval and then I repeated the 10 years part. Wives who leave because of construction don't really leave because of construction, that's just an easy excuse, they'd leave anyway... I bought a Grizzley 20" planer For the flooring and other parts of the house and so far it's worked flawlessly. I have a jet shaper and I wish I bought the larger one. I'm using a Grizzley 8" jointer to sq. one edge and then running a whole bunch of boards the same width thru the planer vertically to ensure there is no error creeping in. I'm using a router to do the ends. The biggest problem is sawdust and shavings. I get around two pickup trucks full a week and so far I haven't found anyone who'll take it so I pay $17.oo a load to dump it. (not all of that is from flooring, quite A lot is from the timbers I'm doing) Do it yourself. There are already too many check book "builders" out there, think of the stories you'll have to tell. Think of the pride you'll feel as you sit in your rocker in your old age. If you have to get to the bar to sit and BS with your buddies well then go ahead be a check book builder, or you can take pride in learning a skill that in the future will be consigned to automation...... I like the Amish expression where they celebrate hard work. It really gives you a peace of mind and a self confidense that writing a check can't. Splinter, I understand that you're running a business and can't afford to be less than fully efficent. If it's a hobby it's a differant mindset so you don't really think of it in absolute terms like time value graphs. Instead think of the pride he'll feel in the future.
*And Shawn, when she runs you out of the house, if you're anywhere near Atlanta, I've got an extra bedroom. The rate for that room will depend on just how much of my insane detail work you're willing to take on.Seriously, it's a very doable project, but just be ready for the wear, tear and time this will take on you and your tools.
*Frenchy, yeah, i'm pretty darned efficient, but the occasional insane idea creeps in and takes over: i glued hundreds and hundreds of pieces of tissue paper on the walls and ceilings of a house because i flipped for the texture it created!I did give up the idea of milling flooring out of pallets, though...right after the planing massacree!
*Splinter, the insane stuff is the only really creative stuff we do. When everyone says I'm nuts, that's when it gets fun! If it's simple and we already have done it, it's just boring work. If it's new and wierd that's when we start to get crazy and the real fun begins. I can see why a carpenter wouldn't want to build his own house but if you take the average business excecutive and give him a hammer and some nails he's in hog heaven. Why do you think Jimmy Charter is such a supporter of habitat?
*Frenchy-I have to agree with you about the personal satisfaction. Our home is a labor of love -- some of the work hasn't been much fun (like replacing the north end of the foundation from footers to timbers), but now I'm at the point where the good stuff is happening.And there's immense satisfaction knowing that a tree that used to be acrossed the road from my home is now part of it. I've seen every one of these trees up close, before they were logs. Like a fool, I even have a few pictures of some of the giants before they came down. Someday I hope my grandchildren will understand the satisfaction of doing something like that. Not necessarily efficient, or fast, but done right, with some care. That's hard to beat.And I get an 18" planer/molder for my shop -- what's not to like?s.
*Shawn- For this much flooring small shop tools may drive you crazy. The job needs a gang ripsaw and a 5 headed moulder and should take about 8 hours. Total cost of $400.00. Doing it without these tools will take 40 + hours.. how much is your time worth? Also the finished product will be exact! What do you do with a butt joint when pieces don't match perfectly in width?Another consideration is alot of shops (mine included) won't work on the lumber unless its been thru a metal detector. 1 fence staple can ruin expensive tooling which you may have to replace.my.02
*Ditto. Plus an endmatcher. All the inaccuracies will show up when the floor gets laid. I appreciate the DIY feelings, but laying thousands of feet of flooring that doesn't....quite....line up would sour me fast.Also, (and I know you're attached to this wood, from your trees), but flooring, in industry, is made from what's left when all the other more useful bits are taken out of a board. The guy at the rip saw who takes the beautiful FAS board OUT of the flooring line and sets it aside makes more way more money for the mill than he does running it into flooring. You could have it milled into wide strips, for a more custom thing.Another .02 cents.
*Adrian/Geoff-what I'm reading about the Woodmaster makes it sound like an industrial machine. Definitely agree about the gang ripsaw (edge jointing and ripping that much would wasn't making me excited). I'll definitely opt for the heavier duty equipment for this job. The other major benefit is that I will be storing a lot of this wood for a while before use. I'd hate to kiln dry all of it, pay to have it milled, have it stored (and return to 20% MC), then have it turn into rocking chair templates after it's milled.I currently have 3,000 feet of cherry air-drying (including a recent purchase of 16" wide -- no sapwood, no wane -- Vermont cherry) in various stages. I'll probably air dry the ash, then kiln-dry and mill it as needed. Less waste and headaches, I hope.I'm allotting an extra 1,000 feet of the very best of the batch not for flooring. It's a shame most people don't know how beautiful ash is, as is evidenced by what mills aren't willing to pay for it!s.
*Shawn,How are you having your logs milled? What lengths, mill run, quarter sawn? Also, are they kiln drying the lumber, you said 45 to 60 days. Better really test moisture content.Incidently, for me it's not the milling and surfacing that wears me out, it's the nailing the stuff down that kills my back.
*JimWho cares about where he is getting it milled?I want to know where that stash of cherry is and who no one is going to be around.
*You'll need help! I'll bring the Power Wagon!
*To answer several questions:I'm having the logs sawn locally (about 2-3 miles down the road). The guy does a fantastic job (it's a big circular saw mill). I'm not exactly sure how it will be sawn yet -- quarter-sawing (my first choice) isn't an option. 12' is the longest that will fit in the kiln, but I'm trying to keep the lengths at 6', 8', and 10'. Anything beyond that isn't much fun to wrestle.The kiln-drying is being done by someone who does a lot of flooring, so I'll trust his judgment (and bring my moisture meter). The stash of cherry is well-guarded, and I'm always home. If I could find a safe big enough, I'd store the 16" cherry in that. This batch of cherry is the Holy Grail -- I had some phenomenal stuff already, but this stuff is amazing. I know Pennsylvania cherry gets big, but Vermont cherry bigger than 10-12" is rare. The tree this came from was oval shaped and big, and it made some incredible planks (12' x 16" x 1 1/8"). I'm keeping my eyes out for Thomas Moser -- I hear he's running out of cherry.s.
*Shawn, Hey buddy when you want to see some real cherry come by my way, it's not uncommon to have 22" boards off the mill (since 22 is as wide as he can saw I'm tempted to take some of these real monsters that they saw down around here and bring them down to La Cresent where they have a top and bottom saw. The bottom saw is 54" and the top saw is 40" I've seen some 36 inch wide boards come off that set up. Cherry prices are up now the mill gets $1.00 a bd. ft. for FAS green and rough. hope you're not paying much more than that! By the way I'd rather airdry wood. First it's a bunch cheaper (just an acheing back at the end of the day) and second there isn't any risk of case hardening etc. Plus some wood really looks better air dried over kiln dried. Black walnut and red elm for example. Are you sure you want to rip all those nice wide boards into little pieces? I love the look of wide planked floors. A lot more homey and less like a gym. Lot less work and very distinctive!
*A successful installation begins with quality material. I've installed floors with so much slop in the tongue and groove that the boards moved under the sanding drum. I've also had material where the tongues were so tight in the grooves that I couldn't bang the boards together. Anymore when someone tells me that they wan't to buy their own material, I make sure that it's coming from a mill I'm familiar with.
*Hey Frenchy , Where in Michigan do you live? How many saw mills are in your area? Splinter That power wagon will only be good to distract Shawn you will need my Diamond T to haul the stash away.
*The '66 Power Wagon's a distraction, for sure! We'll have to wait for spring, though...no heater in Baby Beluga...
*Don, Well I don't live in Michigan, actually the wood I buy is from Johnson bros. logging in Cannon Falls Mn.Talk ToConnie he's a real decent guy who's honest and always willing to help. If you need It dried and planned Nothern hardwoods is also owned by Them and the prices while higher only reflect the cost of drying/ milling. (there's no middle man charges) I don't know, I have a list of well over 1500 in Minnesota of which at least 500 that I know of mill over 100,000 bd.ft. a year (which is my dividing line between a hobbist and someone who does it professionally)
*Thanks , Frenchy , I thought that you were in mich. do you have a no. for Johnson . Don't need wood this year but hope to be doing the cabinets and trim some time next year.Don
*ShawnYou hit the nail on the head when you said how cool it'd be having wood from the house site used in the the house.While building my place and the footers poured I looked one more time behind the house site and decided that a big old red maple was too darn close..so I felled it right across the foundation and had it sawed up.Now its my kitchen table and sits about 12' from where it grew.People flip out and love it when they sit down to eat and I tell them the story.Now I have a bandsaw mill and there are lots of pieces of my woods in here.I ahve some ash paneling I milled and when an old codger saw it he told me about an old gunfight that took place around here years ago.Apparently the house was totally paneled wall and cieling in ash.He said the bullets were still ricocheting around long time after the firing stopped.!
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I'm having some logging done and am fortunate enough to have some beautiful, old growth ash that I'm having saw and kiln-dried for flooring. Because I'm a glutton for punishment (and I'm cheap), I don't want to pay $50/hour to have this milled into flooring.
I'm thinking about buying a heavy duty planer (Jet, Powermatic, or Delta) for surfacing, then running the tongues and grooves on the ash with a dado set on my Jet cabinet saw.
Am I crazy? There is 3500 square feet (approximately 11,000 lineal feet) of flooring to mill, but I won't have to do it all at once. I'm hoping to have the ash edge-joined so I have a surface to start from.
Does anyone know of any molding-type machines (I've looked at the standards I could think of) that would plane and run the t/g on the flooring?
Any insight is appreciate. It's going to be one HUGE pile of ash...
s.