Ok-
Here is a newbie question that is driving me nuts. I’m doing casings with 1×4 pre-prime. I’ve got a chop-saw setup and I’m just doing simple 45 degree mitres. My problem is that the joints never come together just right. They are always off by just a little bit (1/16″ gap at the outside if I level and plumb the two sides).
What am I doing wrong?
Craig
Replies
Craig --
Have you checked your saw for alignment? That would be my first guess. My second would be that the casings are not straight.
Try checking the saw , if it's off just a little you will get gaps.
Brian
Craig
I could tell you how I trim doors and windows but the pros here would probably ridicule me. (And I am slow at it, really slow) I always have to adjust almost every cut and theorized the windows were just slightly out of plumb. But as I thought about it harder it wouldn't matter. So now I think the windows are not perfectly square. It sounds like I need more help from the master trimmers out there. The one thing I know for sure is there are a lot of techniques the pros know to make finish work look good. So how about it guys, help us both out.
J.
your mistake is thinking that everything is in a perfectly flat plane .
It never is. To compensate , when you cut your 45 tilt the 1x by about 3/32" (a short clip of trim nails works well) this produces a compound angle at the joint which drives together very nicely with a couple of hand 4ds.
Edited 11/11/2002 7:36:36 PM ET by benny
Benny,
I think what you really meant to say wasn't to tilt the casing front to back on the saw but to use the clip of nails as a shim to lift it off the table while holding it tight to the table on the side of the nails away from the blade. This creates a slight backcut on the miter keeping the exposed side of the casing tight.
Mark
Thanks Professor I really need to preview before I post.
Edited 11/11/2002 8:36:25 PM ET by benny
Benny,
No problem
Interior/exterior?
Door/windows?
What do you put up first? Head or sides?
And that saw is calibrated dead on? An even, all the time, same mis-fit suggests maybe the mitre setting is a bit off. Could even be the blade to table setting. A little bit goes along way with those long mitres. Keeping them together over time is even harder. I usually bisquit wide casings together, tho that's mainly for interior work.
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 11/11/2002 9:18:46 PM ET by calvin
calvin, here are few tips,that I use on every window before I trim out. First check that every corner is flush with the drywall. Plane off corners that are high and or pull the window in if there is enough give in thewindow. If the window is solid continue if not then shim the corners so that they are tight. Check the window for square if not then square it by shifting the corners to correct . Every window has a nailing face around the peremeter, these can be moved slightly depending on how they were nailed onto the window. Once you have the window flush and square , then check the top sides and bottom for straight. shim if necessary. Good windows won't take as long but you still need to prep them . Take a scrap piece of casing and cut a right hand 45 and another piece and cut a left hand 45. Hold the two peices back to back and look at the 45 mitres. they should be flat , even and the same length. Make sure you are using a good blade in the saw . Check the blade for square at 90 and the blade is 90 to the base of the saw. Now the fun begins, saw is true . the 45 should be true. If not then adjust the stops if necessary. On the window mark the revel I like 3/16 or 1/4 when the trim is heavy on the edge. I like to do the sides first so measure and cut the 45 on both ends. Take s SHARP block plane and make a couple of light passes on the back edge of the mitre. Know nail the casing to the window on the inside edge every 8 to 10 " . Nail the outside edge at top bottom and middle. Measure the top casing and add a light 1/16 and cut the 45's. Place the top in place and look at the fit . If necessary use the block plane to tweak the fit . Know put a small bead of glue in the mitre and reset the top. Quickly nailthe inside edge and a nail thru the mitre at the top. Do not nail the outside edge yet . Do the bottom casing and then come back and nail the outside later this gives the glue a chance to set in the miters. Many times it takes me longer to prep the window than it does to case the window. Good luck slickmeister @ [email protected]
You haven't said whether your miter saw is just a miter saw, or a compound. Whichever, start first with the saw to see that it is calibrated to cut true 45's. If not, do so. If it's a compound, do the above, then check that 0 degrees is just that.
With that done, take a couple of casing pieces 2' long and make up a dummy corner. When you start a door (or window), hold them up to each corner, laying them flat the same way four finished casing would, and see how the miters meet. Perfect? Rarely. Usually open at the outside or inside corner, or all along the top surface, or all along the back surface, or some combination of the above. Now you take your dummies to your saw and re-cut them, just enough to correct them to your observations. Hold them up again. Fit?
OK, now take the casing leg that corresponds to the last dummy you adjusted (your saw is still set there) and cut it to fit (we dubbed this the adjust-a-cut). Now take the first dummy you cut, lay it on your saw, and re-adjust it to just meet your dummy. Make your second cut. If you have a simple (not compound) miter saw, you'll also need to cut some pairs of shims to lay under your stock if the joint is open along the length of the face or back.
You should have a miter that lays flat on the wall, and is closed along its length. Be sure you don't nail anything off until you're sure you've dealt with both ends of the piece of trim.
Royal pain in the backside? Yup. And probably not anything you want to do if you're casing the service door on the side of the garage. But if you're high quality interior trim, stain grade or paint, this will get you a good job. And it will also drill into your mind that the dream door or window, where all the casing just lays up there real sweet, almost never exists.
CRuss,
After you have followed the advice in the preceding post regarding adjusting your saw to get a square miter (after you join the pieces together) which you can verify with a framing square, let me make a suggestion. Cut your casing and screw it together on the bench before you nail it to the wall. On any job with more than just a few windows and doors this is the way I do it. All you need is a flat surface at a comfortable height,a couple of Quick clamps and a couple of cordless drills. Place a leg and the header casing together with some glue on the miter and clamp them to the table. Drill thru the header casing into the leg casing at an angle of approximately 45 degrees and run in a screw. This will suck the miter tight if it isn't already that way. Do the other side and carefully stand the whole frame against the wall taking care once you get it stood up to check the miters and straighten any that move in the process. After a couple hours you can install the frames. There are a number of advantages to this method of which the most important is that the joints don't open up over time. Also while I can cut and miter casing with the best of them I still find this method to be faster and to produce consistant results. Best of all a newbie as you said you are can get professional results without the degree of experience necessary to get them otherwise. Hope this helps you out.
Mark
I have a very simple solution to your problem with miters. Don't use them unless absolutely necessary. A mitered corner is inherently unstable. especially if used outdoors. I understand that if you are using clam shell, or almost any kind of fancy trim mouldings, a miter is the only way, but if you are using 1x4 why not just cut the top long, and butt the sides up to it? Glue the joint, or even better, use a biscuit and glue. A piece of back banding, or a piece of bead and cove can dress up the look with very little extra cost, (and it can be added at a later date if money is a concern.) By using the tips from the other posts in combination with the square cuts I think you'll find satisfaction. When the trim is all painted you shouldn't see the joints any way. Doug
Verify that your saw is calibrated and that the opening is plumb and square.
I install the head piece first. Nail it only to the jamb on the inside edge at first. For the side pieces, cut miters on a piece slightly longer than you need. With the miter cut pointing down on the floor, mark the length using the top of the head piece as the scribe. Now cut the square end that meets the floor or the plinth next on the mark you made. Dry fit the side pieces to the head piece and shave to fit it with your miter saw. A gauge block under the piece that is the same thickness of the finish floor will mark the piece for the final cut.
To tighten the joint you can use miter spring clips or a kicker stick and a shim to the wall and ceiling each side of the joint. The dry fit should be right on before you glue up. A biscuiter will greatly ease the assembly. Trying to line it up without a biscuit would be difficult.
I have had to install a similar detail in several homes because that is what the architect specced. When I am in charge of the design of the trim I avoid using a mitered corner. I hate the look. Sorry. I prefer the bead, pediment, crown, cornice detail. To save time and money then the bead and pediment only will look good too. It's quick, traditional and beautiful.
I don't know where this mitered 1x4 interior trim became popular but lately I have been seeing it a lot. 2 1/4" beveled mitered trim has been the tract home standard since the 40's. 1x4 trim is an offshoot of that chintzy design. I implore all designers to abandon the 1x4 mitered detail. It sucks because it doesn't take in consideration of the properties of wood. A miter that long is a crack waiting to happen.
Maybe if you are using painted MDF then you can get away with mitered 1x4s.
I am sorry if I appear to be a snob. I have lots of strong opinions on a lot of things. This may be one place to nip some ugly trend in the bud.
I agree that avoiding mitered corners is a good start.
If you're truly using plain 1x4 for your door casings, butt your corners. Put in the head first, and then you can cut the sides so they're good and tight. Another tip that will make your results look better when using simple 1x4 trim: plane off about a 1/16" from the bottom edge of the head casing so you get rid of the factory round-over. This will get rid of the shadow line that would otherwise be there.
If you're stuck with mitering, I agree with a previous post that you should use approximately 24" pieces to try the fit dry. and then tweak the angle on your saw as required.
Edited 11/14/2002 12:15:59 AM ET by ragnar
I agree that butting the joints is better but it depends on the style of the house. Craftsman style bunglows always had butted trim. Sometimes the head was more decortive. My question is why would you install the head first. I always install the jambs first (scribe to the floor and then cut to the line for the head). The head trim is then marked to fit the jambs. The head then sits tight on top of the jamb trim.
I have done one side, head, then the other side. Both sides, then the head. And finally the head, then each side. After 30 years, I just felt the last was the ticket for speed and ease. You have to eliminate trips back to the saw after awhile. You do risk cutting the sides a little short if fitting to a finished hard floor surface, but you pick up ways to eliminate that problem. I dunno Archy, it's like most anything else, what you're used to and what works for you the best.
Kind of like women.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Archy,
You mentioned that the Craftsman style works well for butted corners. Another style that I do all the time is what I refer to as "classical". That is, the head casing is comprised of three elements: a cap/crown, a frieze, and a fillet. My nomenclature may not be 100% accurate, so I'll attach a picture to make sure you know what I mean.
With this style of trim, it's easiest to pre-assemble the head casing. I measure the finished opening, do the math to figure out how long to cut the respective pieces, assemble it across my saw horses, and then install it in proper position.
To get back to the main point: I've tried a number of different approaches, and have found that when I put in the side casings in first, sometimes the head doesn't sit exactly level, and there are tapered gaps between the head casing and the butts of the side casings. This isn't supposed to be a problem if the door frame is level, etc., but lots of houses that I work in are old and out of square. It doesn't always make sense financially to resquare a 6-foot cased opening, for example. What seems to be more important, visually speaking, is that the reveal between the head casing and the head jamb is consistent.
So anyway, I put in the head first - and locate it relative to the jamb that's already in place.
The next thing I do is stand the side casings up and see if I need to fuss with the cut where the side casing dies into the finish floor. Once I'm satisfied with the bottom end, I look at the top end - where it dies into the head casing. Similarly, I determine whether this cut needs to be exactly 90 degrees, or if I need to adjust it a little.
When the side casing is cut to fit and cut to length, I give it a little snap and it fits perfectly into place. I can get a tighter fit when I'm installing a piece of trim between two fixed surfaces -- same logic as when you're snapping in baseboards or base shoes.
Ragnar
Ragnar,
Nice work dude!
Mark
Thanks for the compliment, Mark. By the way, have you looked into that book I mentioned?
I like your idea of pre-assembling mitered corners on a bench. I may give it a try sometime. Have you ever tried running a screw in after installation? If so, what did the experience tell you?
Regards,
Ragnar
Ragnar,
As to the book I have been so busy I haven't had a chance though I'll get around to it at some point. As to your question regarding installing a screw after installation I have never tried it but have to think it would be awfully hard to do without banging up the drywall with the drill. Possibly could be done with a long extension bit in the drill. It seems to me to negate most of the advantages that I mentioned in my former post regarding time savings. I highly recommend you try it as I described. I'd be willing to bet that you are very happy with the results both as to quality and speed. If you do let me know what you think. One other thing, I used to use regular 2.5" drywall screws but lately I've been using the 2" trim screws instead. This avoids having to use a bit with a countersink and leaves a hole about the size a 16D finish nail would. THe trim screws come in 2 or 3 sizes and I have found them very useful for finish work, especially handrail connections on post to post systems. If you use them in hardwood you have to luburcate them with wax or soap before you drive them. If not they are prone to snapping, this also goes for the drywall or deck screws. You can get them at McFeelys but I would try your local hardware or lumberyard first. Maybe they can order them as McFeelys is rather expensive. BE Well
Mark
Really impressive work. I'm going to re-read your post and try to figure out the trim piece that is directly above the window. It is striking and hopefully easy.
I've done the back banding on the butted casings and it is very attractive but this is certainly a step above that. It was worth your effort to put up a picture. Thanks.
I wonder with my earlier posting regarding using the latex caulk in the gap on painted surfaces. Do I have to turn in my tool belt now? Or can I wait til the end of the pay period? Seriously, there is no bond with endgrain to side grain. Personally I think the caulk moves more than alphetic resin. Cracks are bad in paint."The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things: Of shoes--and ships-- and sealing wax--Of cabbages-- and kings, and why the sea is boiling hot-- and whether pigs have wings"
If it's a simple 45 degree miter joint on the casing, I biscuit and glue the joint. Easy to mill, helps with the registration, locks them together, and eliminates the chance of splitting the wood from edge nailing/screwing.
If a butt joint, it depends...if the head and sides are the same thickness, I still like to biscuit and glue. If the head piece is thicker and/or overhangs the sides, it depends...
Ragnar has a very nice detail on his trim. Easy to execute (not taking away from the nice work, btw<g>) and the various shadow lines give detail, depth, and to a certain extent, actually make it easier to run the trim together when you're concerned with 64ths and seasonal wood movement breaking painted butt or mitered joint lines.
Still...the kind of style that you're shooting for (new work or matching old work) and your confidence as a marksman will tell you which target to go for.
Above all, don't be afraid to do quality work or to try an aggressive trim design. The first window is the hardest.
Ragnar,
I simply wanted to say "thanks" for showing that pic. It's obvious you care about your work, and that's always refreshing to see.
I like the paint colors, too. Nice to see walls painted something other than "Resale Beige."<g>
Everyone here is right. there are lots of ways to make the miter fit. But one detail you mentioned is that these are all preprimed. So follow as much of the direction above that you can comprehend without your eyes glazing then consider cheating.
If you are going to paint it anyway, then consider cheating by getting cheapo latex caulk $.99 a tube. Put a mini bead on the cut faces smear it thin with your finger. Jam / rub the pieces together as tightly as you can fit them with your jointery and nail it home setting the nails. Artfully scrape off the excess caulk and go to the next window. You could putty or caulk it after the fact but this is quick effective and undetectable under a coat of paint.
I have a standing battle with DW regarding painted wood. I hate it. That being said I don't invest more time in it than I have to.
Thanks for all of the suggestions. One thing that a lot of you said which surprised me was to just avoid the mitred corner all together. I always thought that was the look of "high-end" trim. I'll have to go back and rethink that. I am going to play with all of the suggestions mentioned here and get one of them to work. For this particular job, I'm going to go with butt joints. Ideally, I would use a biscuit to hold these joints together, too, but that is one tool I haven't invested in yet. That will be the next tool that I pick up.
Thanks for all the tips.
Craig
Craig, I make my living with a miter saw. The easiest way to check the accuracy of your saw is the "flip check". Firmly hold a 16" length of your 1X4 stock flat on the saw, set the miter to zero. Let the saw come up to full speed and with one even stroke, cut the piece in half. Without moving the piece on the left, flip the piece on the right 180. Butt the two cuts together. If the two pieces do not fit together absolutely, positively, perfect - something is amiss. Your saw may be in need of alignment to zero.
Another possibility may be the blade. If you've ever jammed the blade, small metal filings are created between the washers that hold the blade. As small as they are, they can throw the blade out just enough to make tight miters almost impossible. To fix, remove the washers and lightly sand them smooth. Old equipment can act the same way because of wear and a sharp blade designed for the job at hand would be essential for 1x4 stock.
My favorite saw is the non sliding double compound 12" DeWalt, I use high quality 80 tooth blades and my casing miters are always near to perfect.
sometimes board sometimes knot
Craig, previous posts had many good suggestions.Many times the miters fit dry before they are nailed, then nailing distorts the miter. I have trimmed many a door and window, this is how I proceed.
Check head for square, most are decent.
If nearly square then measure opening, add margin x2 , add width of trim x2, combine measurements. Example, 30" opening, margin 3/16" = 30 3/8", lets say your trim is 3 1/2" wide, x2 =7" combine, total measurement from long point of miter to miter is 37 3/8".
Cut head , tack up with proper margin.
Cut 45's on each leg. Take left leg and turn point upside down , point should be about 3 1/2" from jamb and on the floor. Mark height on leg bottom by scribing across the head. Cut this end square. Do same to right leg. Check fit, you may have to take a little off the bottom, depending on the thickness of pencil line.If everything looks good, glue miter on leg, apply and nail at the top only. You may have to place a shim, I use a putty knife most of the time, behind one of the miters temporairly.
Do the other side , do not nail the rest of the casings yet. Work on miters for next opening and when glue is hard, usually 2 hours, go back and nail the rest of the casings. You will be able to work the casings back and forth to get the proper reveal.
One poster mentioned screwing the miters. Excellent idea, I would still add glue to the miters.
There was a magazine article about a board that you use with a hand plane, for tuning up mitres, basically, piece of plywood with two scraps nailed on to capture the work, with a rabbitt or something to let the plane glide against. Good technique, in FHB somewhere.listening for the secret.......searching for the sound...
http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/planingpoints/shootingboards/shootingindex.htm
or just type shooting board in search engine.
Mike,
If you go back and read my post regarding the miters you will see that I did advise gluing the miters as well. One thing I forgot to mention is that the biggest advantage to my method aside from quality, is that you can set up a production line. Typically I measure my door leg casing lengths, record all door head casings of which there are usually several sizes which can be grouped together,in short I make a cut list and cut most of the casing for the home at one time, exceptions being where casing may have to be ripped or notched for some reason. After I have cut all the pieces I start screwing them together. Usually by the time I get that done I can start installing the pieces I started with as the glue has had time to set up by then. Because the miters are glued and screwed you can install them much easier than messing around with single pieces and if you have a bent piece of casing or an opening that is slightly out of square the miter can be nailed first and then the rest of the trim nailed off with no delays. The miters will stand quite a bit of torque without opening up. My house was done this way, is almost 11 years old and there are maybe 4-5 miters in the whole house which have opened just a hair. The rest are all tight.
Mark
There's yet another way to work around slightly off-miters: Cut one leg using your standard 45 setting and install. Use a scrap to make a test-cut for the adjoining leg and adjust the saw and test on the scrap until you get the joint tight. Then use that setting for the final cut. Time is lost in the test/adjust phase, but if you have windows and doors that are not square (or saw with suspect settings) almost any method will require tweaking to get your joints tight.
Ooops, looks like this was already covered, sorry for the redundancy.
Edited 11/13/2002 8:22:45 AM ET by WFLATHER
Crussell,
You might want to check out my amateurish website. I've been a trim carpenter for longer than I care to remember and now manufacture a miter clamp as well. The site is not yet listed on the search engines because I'm replacing it with a much better one soon. It is almost done but is stuck on my computer for the time being. http://miterclamp.com/
Good luck
Clampman
i think the the problemyou are having can be eliminated if you back cut your trim just a half a degree. by doing this the front face of your trim becomes the long point of a compound angle. this can be achived by two ways. 1. tip your saw 1/2 a degree in the back or slightly shim your 1 by 4 in the front by the blade or in the back by the end of the fence. by shiming i mean 1/8 in. increments thusly raising or lowering the cut edge out of square with the blade