Here are pictures of a porch I rebuilt from the framing up. I built the colums with mitered 12″ pine boards. The trim is mostly finger jointed pine.
After only three months (I built it in November)the miters on the trim have all opened some as much as 3/16″. The miters were all glued as well. At first I thought that the trim shrunk, but that would mean it shrunk more than a 1/4″ over 12 inches! I don’t think that is possible. So now I think that the 12″ boards expanded. across the grain that seema more reasonable. So esentialy the columns are wider now than they were and the trim dosn’t fit.
So here is the question. Should I rebuild it? Or do I tell them that is the way wood is? Do I eat the repair?The original colum ws built with cedar boards, due to the cost diference I used Pine (after discussing it with the owners). I primed both sides with premium Bear exterior primer and topcoat. I thought that solid wood would be better than plywood, it certiantly cost more. I’ve been in business for 3 years and this was a good job for me as it generated a lot of interest in my work.
Please help,
Mike
Edit. When I back primed I didn’t prime the faces so as not to have roller marks, I sprayed the whole thing,
Sorry about the spelling
Edited 3/16/2004 9:43 am ET by mike
Replies
If you know what your original measurements are then a quick remeasure should tell you which portion moved.
My vote would be the solid pine panels rather than the moulding. Witness all the problems with wide plank floors that are out of the weather but subject to the heating and cooling and moisture changes indoors.
But you did backprime and paint all around, too. Hmmmmm
However, small mouldings with an initial high moisture content can shrink lengthwise. It's happened to me.
If you are so inclined, you could experiment with just a moulding replacement or (and you didn't hear it from me 'cause of the razzing I'd get) send in the painter, he's got caulk.<G>
Ralph,
I am almost certin that the panels expanded. I dont think it is possible for those 12" pieces of door moulding to move that much, even if they were green. Like you said I back primed, but latex (and most oils) will not stop vapor transfer, just protect from wood rot. I feel like I did all the right things. Although cedar would be more rot resistant, it would expand and contract almost the same as pine. Even though I used inevpensive lumber I went the extra mile to build it to last using poly glue and back primeing everything. The only way I can think of to prevent this is to use plywood, but that will be more prone to rotting. Could I use PT plywood? Is that stuff paintable?
I have already caulked the spaces. It looks OK, but what will happen when it shrinks this summer in the Texas heat. I really need some input on the profesional way to resolve this. Do I tell them "Hey it's wood, it moves. Thank God for caulk." or did I fail to build a good product?
Thanks for the reply,
Mike
The only way I can think of to prevent this is to use plywood, but that will be more prone to rotting. Could I use PT plywood? Is that stuff paintable?
Yes. If you're worried, you could also go all the way up to marine plywood, which I've had sitting out in the weather for 10 yrs as planter boxes with Chippendale style molding. All held together with resorcinol glue and a few biscuits. Been repainted a couple of times, but the wood is fine. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Can't see in the pics, but have the column boards cupped a bit as well? That would certainly add to the opening of those miters. I do think the boards themselves have swollen and changed dimension. That's pretty much a given.
I think you could have avoided most of this problem by using ply for the columns but that's a trade-off of sorts too which you realized. And no, IMO you haven't made an inferior piece of product here. (I wouldn't be using finger-jointed stock though)
I don't think there's any way, under the circumstances regarding the materials you've used to avoid this cross-grain dimensional predicament. Without question I'd eat the repair/fix and would try to resolve the aesthetic problem. Charging for it would be seriously bad client relations while doing it cheerfully for free helps you build a good reputation.
Fact is……..you've got one piece moving dimensionally here while the other isn't. That's just a fact of physics that you need to circumvent one way or another to keep the eye pleased.
One way to accommodate this type of movement that I frequently use is to build that molding surround as a separate unit……..so to speak. I cut the pieces a bit longer so they don't sit down tight on the post; an oversized frame if you will. Make it larger enough to accommodate any movement. Slide and tape a couple of temporary spacing shims (like 10d or 12d casing nails) under each piece of molding as you cut and fit. Get your corners well glued and pinned to one another. Then install the minimum number of the smallest practical nails thru the moldings to hold things in place…….trying to keep the most of these in the center of the run and the fewest at the corners. Now pull your temp shims and close the produced gaps with a quality flexible paintable caulk. (Don't fill behind the moldings, just run a bead along the top and bottom) Done properly, this should allow the column boards to change dimension while leaving the moldings unaffected.
Mike,
Did those plinth miters at the bottom of the columns open as well?
Same procedure as above works fine there, too.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 3/16/2004 10:19 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 3/16/2004 10:52 am ET by GOLDHILLER
I'd say it was about 50/50 the boards expanding and the trim shrinking, with a little bit of separation of the joints between the boards thrown in. This is what wood does, but, like the others said, you need to learn to compensate for it. Replacing the trim should fix it, and shouldn't break the bank on your end.
If I were doing it I would have considered using MDO for the boxes.
Mike , you did a real nice job. Stop worrying about the joints, fill with caulk. Normally I wouldn't say that but this is spilt milk so to speak. Next time use MDO (medium density overlay] .Comes primed , about $45.OO per 1/2" x 4x8 sheet.Very stable and sprays well. Rolling a finish or brushing works too. I finished a very large job similar to yours last year. Next time I would proceed this way. After establishing finished dimensions for the columns, say 8"x8" square. Rip two sides 8" and two sides 7 1/4". Rabbet 1/2" wide x 3/8" deep on the two sides that are 8" wide. When you glue them up you get 8" square. I used polyurathane glue, water proof and longer set up time. Brad nails hold it together until glue dries. I made them in a U shape and installed close up piece in the field, as they went around 6x6 timbers.
First thing is do not miter anything that will see weather. You are better off with a rabbet or rabbet and dado joint. Getting a perfect miter is tough on boards that are probably not flat , let alone straight. With only 1/8" of the rabbet showing as in the previous paragraphs and a bit of sanding, the columns look like solid timbers.
You might just replace the worst of the moldings, if the caulk looks accecptable leave it be. You will get a lot more work from the looks of your pics, each additional job will look better and go easier.
mike
Nice looking work. A shame you're having problems.
Random thoughts:
1. Wood expands along it's width, not it's length. The problem is with the 12" stock.
2. We all think of plywood as a cheap alternative, but that is not why it was designed. A key advantage of plywood is that the alternating grains minimize cross grain expansion. High quality plywood or MDO would be my choice.
3. Cupping of the solid boards is a real possibility, especially if it is attached to framing beneath. The framing will lock in a width for the column and when the solid members expand they would have no choice but to cup. This would also account for why the base didn't open as much (assuming it did not, hard to tell from the pix) since the solid members would probably be more rigidly attached at the base where there is more framing.
4. Can't see any air holes from your picture. Here in the south we have many columns which are several hundred years old and are still in great shape. Ventilation is a key. Moisture will get in. Design a chimney so that the moist air can be evacuated freely.
5. Don't know about the cost of the job, but here it would bring several thousand dollars. Makes the $25.00 or so you saved for finger jointed trim vs. solid fir or PVC seem pretty small- huh? I sell my work as the best. Yours looks like it deserves the same. I sell my work because I don't cut corners. Pick the best materials for the application and stick to your guns. We have to educate our clients as to why we make specific choices. Then, if they insist on making bad decisions, we should politely withdraw or, at the least, place a disclaimer in our contracts.
6. That having been said, I don't see how you can look your client in the eye and ask them to pay for the repair. They look to us to be the experts (a scary thought) and rely on our judgement.
7. The best fix to me seems to be the minimum at this point. The suggestion regarding floating trim smacks of genius and may well work. A few thoughts on it, though- 1)Use PVC if it is available. It is more stable and can be welded together 2) leave plenty of space for the expansion of the solid stock. 3) DON'T USE SILICONE!!! Whatever caulk you use should be compatible with the finish. Following my quality preferences, I wouldn't use latex either. A high quality poly-urethane sealant would be my choice. OSI makes a good one for siding applications. 4) Consider allowing the trim band to float. Place a pin below the trim to hold it in place and caulk/adhere the top. When that is dry, remove the pins and caulk beneath. Avoid attaching the lengthwise trim pieces to the cross grain pieces if at all possible.
Hope this works for you.
Interesting thoughts and delivery. :-)
I admit I was in a rush this morning to get out of here and off to the shop, so didn't say all that needed saying. Both you and Mike4244 made up well for that. Edge miters on wide solid stock outside are at best, a risky venture. Rabbeting would be far more reliable.
Gotta agree that this is a nice looking piece of work. Well proportioned and detailed. Nice job, Mike.
As far as floating those frames......I should have said it would be best to keep the mold to post nailing confined to the "middle" four inches if possible and use none out at the corners if possible. The accumulated movement in those four inches shouldn't pose a problem (never has for me) in its relationship to the molding. I've thought about doing as you described (using the caulk as the only fastener) but I've always chickened out. <G> Haven't experienced any problems using the center nailing technique either, so I can continue to be chicken, I guess. The principle of center fastening in these types of situations is a carry-over from my "furniture only" days. Same principles apply to pinned "bread-board" ends.
Polyurethane caulk would definitely be my choice also. PL brand is readily available here and is a quality product a guy can count on. Tenacious long-lasting bond that's paintable and flexible enough for even this application.
I think I see his columns lifted off the floor and maybe they can vent out thru a roof vent..if one exists up there.
Again.....nice job, Mike. You'll go far. Just make sure you charge enough.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
WOW Guys,
Thanks for all the feed back. I guess I will be rebuilding the colums.
There are a lot of questions to answer and ideas that were discused. First of all I have to defend myself. I did back prime the boards and trim. I did not want brush marks on the faces so I saved that untill I sprayed. I believe that Bear is one of the best paints out there. Check out their exterior primer, it is great.
I built and painted this thing for $2,000. Which was not really enough. Origonaly they only asked me to repair the rotten trim. After pulling off the trim I found more rott.....one thing led to another and I rebuilt the whole thing. I think that I told them it would cost 600 to do the repairs. So I charged as little as possible and saved as much as posible on the materials without comprimising the finished product. I still tried to built a good product. I used solid wood thinking that it would be better than Ply. I already have more work lined up with them. All the trim on the house is going or gone, including wooden divided light windows.
This work is in the Dallas area in a golf course comunity what do yall think would have been a fair price?
It is a blessing to be able to come here and get advice from other pros. I really apreciate the feed back
Mike
Mike - I must have missed something ... why re-build? I think if you replace the molding, cutting the new pieces a little longer than the old ones, and nail them as described above (in the middle of the post, and to each other), then the seasonal movement of the wide boards won't be applying force on the miter joints.
Bill.
Yes, that is what I plan to do. Although I don't want the panels to show scars from the origional trim. So if the columns look OK after I remove the old trim I will reinstall the trim as described.
I forgot to thank yall for the compliments on my work. I was very proud of the work, so this really bums me out. Thanks for the compliments, it means a lot comming from yall.
Mike
Although I can't see inside the columns it looks like nothing was primed before assembly. Always back prime and prime all 6 sides of your trim. And dont use that brand of paint ( Behr-ly covers). Right now your worried about shrinkage. It wont take long before the problem is peeling paint. But thats another thread.
Wide pine boards like yours are susceptible to wide dimensional swings that change with the climate. The good news is that now that the boards have picked up enough moisture to separate your joints, they will probably not swell much further except with a little summer humidity. After a couple of months outside they have reached sort of an equilibrium with the climate.
Go ahead and retrim, but cut the peices a little longer than needed. dont over nail and fill the gap with an expandable caulk.
Next time use MDO
Edited 3/16/2004 4:49 pm ET by maverick