Hello. We decided to do some redecorating before the holiday season and have run into a problem. After removing the wallpaper from the previous owners, we have found some areas where there is black mold growing behind the wallpaper! This was found on both inside and outside walls!! Can someone advise what we need to do before painting the livingroom? Thanks so much for your help.
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Most likely just wash/scrub it down well. Don't use bleach (at least in a sprayer.) TSP or auto-dishwasher powder.
Mold is pretty common behind wallpaper, it loves the paste.
Check out the EPA's advice on mold remediation
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
Don't use bleach
Bob, why not? I had always thought that was what you were supposed to use?
Doug
Bleach is definitely not recommended for mold - here's one product pros use that is available to DIY - http://traskresearch.com/mold.htm
These guys know their stuff - I've used their products myself. I bought their fogger - http://traskresearch.com/mold_fogger.htm which was very effective.
Jeff
Edited 11/25/2007 10:43 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Thanks Jeff. I guess I was always under the (false) impression that bleach was a good thing for mold.
Doug
DBAC - Dimethyl Benzyl Ammonium Chloride
Jeff
Why not bleach Jeff? I'm not getting my head around that one
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University Study Discovers That Bleach is Ineffective In Killing Mold on Wood "While bleach is often recommended for remediation of surface mold on wood, our [university research study] results illustrate that the treatment does not eliminate the surface "micro flora," is the conclusion of the Oregon State University study of the effects of chlorine bleach on mold growth on Douglas fir wood [an important timber crop in the state of Oregon]. The research study was conducted by Professor Jeffrey Morrell, Dept. of Wood Science, Oregon State University, as assisted by Adam Taylor [graduate research assistant] and Camille Freitag [Senior Research Associate], as published in Forest Products Journal , 54:4, 2004.
plus many others ...
Jeff
Do you have an actual link to that ?
Everybody is born a hero.
http://fcg.cof.orst.edu/structur/9557.pdf
Jeff
Thank you.
Everybody is born a hero.
Of course there's a difference between wood, where the mold likely goes into the surface substantially, and drywall/plaster, where the mold will be superficial (assuming it's living in the drywall glue, etc). Bleach will definitely kill the visible mold, but has no residual effect, and won't soak into the surface very far.Of course, the main reason for not using bleach is that if it spatters onto carpets or curtains or upholstery or whatever it'll create an ugly mess.But I wouldn't hesitate to sponge a moldy plaster wall with bleach, if only to make it look nicer. If you need a long-term antifungal, though, you need something else.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
And, of course, I tend to overdo "of course".
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
That says on wood.
This case in point is on sheetrock or plaster.
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Whatever floats your moldy boat.
Jeff
I'm like John here, just trying to understand what the reasoning is. I neve do or refrain from doing something without good reason why.The quote you had simply seemed to say that the bleach doesn't work as good as we might expect.OK, Fine, but that doesn't mean there is any reason not to use it at all. And what else is there that works better?I'm thinking the Boracare line of borate products is part of the answer for wood.As near as I can see from what I've read here so far on this, the spores will remain deeper in the wood so we can't be expecting to get it all out simply by spritzing or scrubbing with a bleach.Fair enough, but when you have a primered sheetrock or plaster, all the mold is on the surface and was most likely there feeding on the glues in the wallpaper, which is no longer there. Easy enough to scrub it down to remove the remains of the glue, disinfect with bleach, let dry and move on.I thought there might have been some chemical reason why bleach might hurt the finish or something when two of you guys were suddenly making strong statements "Do Not Use Bleach!" I still don't see any downside to using it
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I'm thinking the Boracare line of borate products is part of the answer for wood.
Aren't borates also used as an insect deterent? And isn't it supposed to be no more harmful than table salt ? In which case it seems like a no-brainer to treat the lumber with it. Less bugs and mold.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Borate can be used to kill roaches. It is an abrasive so that when they groom themselves, the borate destroys the waxy-like coating on their bodies. They die of dehydration.Borate can be toxic to humans if ingested. Causes renal failure.
Borate is toxic to humans only in relatively large doses.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
From the MSDS:Death has been reported to occur in infants from less than 5 grams and in adults from 5 to 20 grams.30 grams= 1 oz
Swallowed or inhaled ?
Everybody is born a hero.
swallowed
One ounce is a heck of a lot to ingest. You wouldn't get it from incidental exposure.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
It is advertised as being safe for all mammals.
It is present in many soils.It must be a pretty large dose that causes renal failure....
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The stuff in preservatives is a different chemical.
http://www.epa.gov/oppad001/reregistration/cca/borates.htm
5 grams is a LOT to ingest. not likely to happen accidentally
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5 grams is one sixth of an ounce. That is the weight of two dimes. Hardly a lot.
My point stands - it is a lot more than you are likely to accidentally ingest
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One point that seems to have been missed here is that some of the chemicals that are suggested as alternatives to bleach...Used to be used by the industry as a preventive treatment at the mill and/or factory. And have been dropped, mostly for economic reasons. (They decided that people would accept moldy, stained wood, at the lumberyard, and they were right.) And sometimes for NIMBY ecological reasons.Also, the original purpose, (and that which is stated the most in the literature), is pretty much for looks, not for health reasons. I believe the word used most often is "antisapstain". And their concern is discoloration of the wood, not worry about the health problems caused by mold...Most of what I read, looks like just so much scrambling for the top position, better market share, and greater profit. By discounting the other guy, and making one's own product look like the one and only true cure-all.Pretty much every one of the products tested lacked in efficacy in one or more ways. The best results always come from combinations of products. Such as a good scrub with detergent, before a wash with a 10% bleach solution. Or a combination of DDAC and Boracare. (DDAC being efficacious against only one type of mold fungus, and Boracare taking care of most of the rest.)And some have made the important point that drying and keeping the moisture out is more important than all the rest. In one of the linked PDF's offered above, the last section reads as such..."While bleach is often recommended for remediation of surface mold on wood, our results illustrate that the treatment does not eliminate the surface microflora. As a result, an important component of remediation must be drying to moisture levels below 20 percent (The generally accepted level for inhibiting growth of fungi on wood)(Zabel and Morrell 1992). In the absence of drying, some fungi clearly survive the treatment and may recolonize the surface."This pretty much applies, no matter how you decide to 'treat' the area.
Everybody is born a hero.
Does anyone remember a thread earlier this year touting auto antifreeze as a magic mold/mildew cure that works great on wood?
I remember the thread.I don't rmember the name or location of the thread.The same thing occurred to me while I was studying the .PDF's offered. When I saw that part of the 'solution' in a couple, (the liquid in which the chemicals are suspended.), was glycol.
Everybody is born a hero.
Edited 11/28/2007 2:08 pm by Luka
Timbor or Boracare uses gylcol as a carrier. IIRC the gylcol also has some antifungal properties. Either as it self or the way that it reacts to moisture.But I don't remember if it is the RV type or the auto type..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
That's a valid point. Plaster will not support mold, but rather it's the paint/glue on the surface that supports it. And with paper-covered drywall the extent of support is only as thick as the paper. In these cases superficial treatment with fresh chlorine bleach would be effective.Wood is an entirely different beast, as any mold (rot) is apt to go clear through.The reasons for not using chlorine bleach are:1) It's mildly hazardous to humans (though many other fungicides are much worse).2) It's hazardous to colored surfaces -- wallpaper, rugs, curtains, etc.3) In very large volumes it's hazardous to plants.4) It's often used ineffectively (eg, in a mistaken attempt to "control" efflorescence, or to de-mold wood which is more than superficially affected).5) Killing the mold isn't all that important as a step to controlling it. The keys to control are to remove the food and/or remove the moisture. Or treat with some persistent (but more hazardous) chemical.Still, within the above limits it's reasonably safe and modestly effective.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Finaly some reasoning here other than just a blanket don't do it.
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Of course. I'm always the voice of reason.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Untill politics comes along....;)
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are you saying that there's politics out there that are a bit mouldy???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Just like mold spores, it even gets into the jokes around here
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Hey, when it comes to politics I'm the ONLY reasonable guy.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
When my son-in-law discovered mold in their attic I was surprised when he said the people he contacted to look at it said bleach won't work on wood.
But yet when our church group went to the gulf coast and "mucked out" houses, they were told to remove the drywall and spray the studs with a bleach mixture. I'm pretty sure that after the studs dried, someone else went in and put on new drywall and that's all that was done. I suppose the main thing is to hope that the walls never get damp again.
When mucking out the bleach isn't primarily for the mold, but for the various bacteria, etc, that can be lurking about.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Bleach is definitely not recommended for mold
Bleach IS recommended as part of the cleanup by the IL Dept of Health:
1. The surfaces first need to be cleaned with soap.• Use a non-ammonia soap or detergent in hotwater and scrub the entire area affected by themold. Never mix bleach with ammonia; thefumes are toxic.• Use a stiff brush or cleaning pad on blockwalls or uneven surfaces.• Rinse clean with water.
2. The next step is to disinfect the surfaces tohelp prevent mold from coming back.• Disinfect the area with a solution of water andbleach (½ cup of bleach per gallon of water).Straight bleach will not be more effective.When mixing or using the solution, make surethe windows are open.• For spraying large exterior areas, a gardenhose and nozzle can be used.• Let disinfecting areas dry naturally. Thisextended time is important to kill all the mold.
http://www.idph.state.il.us/envhealth/pdf/moldmildew.pdfjt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Note the publication date - 8/03. Much has been learned since then.
Jeff
Note the publication date - 8/03
I wouldn't discount the article simply from the date of publication. For instance the PDF you linked us to was from 10/02.
"The authors are, respectively, Graduate Research Assistant, Senior Research Assistant, and
Professor, Dept. of Wood Science and Engineering, Oregon State Univ., 119 Richardson Hall,
Corvallis, OR 97331. This paper was received for publication in October 2002. Article No.
9557."
Much has been learned since then
I don't doubt that. And I realize there are probably more effective anti-mold chemicals than bleach, however I wouldn't completely disregard the abilities of bleach. Bleach also doesn't have any unusual or unknown side effects and is commonly available.
And the prime target as always is to deny the surfaces the environment which makes mold growth possible.jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
http://www.moldacrossamerica.org/notobleach.htm
http://www.bleach-mold-myth.com/
etc. etc. etc.
Jeff
Edited 11/26/2007 11:19 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
http://www.moldacrossamerica.org/notobleach.htm
http://www.bleach-mold-myth.com/
etc. etc. etc.
I'm sure I could find a website that tells me that the earth is flat, and another site which tells me that man never walked on the moon, and another site that says the holocaust never happened, but I'm trying to find the no-bleach idea on an official website. Do you have an official (EPA or public health) website that says not to use bleach? A website setup by Tom, Dick, or Harry can say anything.
I'm not trying to be a PITA or a "I'm right and you're wrong" person. I'm trying to get clear and correct information. Disinformation is the bane of forum websites.
IL dept of health says scrub with detergent and spray with bleach mixture. Like rjw was saying, the EPA website says to scrub with detergent and that, "The use of a chemical or biocide that kills organisms such as mold (chlorine bleach, for example) is not recommended as a routine practice during mold cleanup. There may be instances, however, when professional judgment may indicate its use"
From the official websites, I'm getting the feeling that bleach isn't the 'cure all', but none of them are saying NOT to use it. Mostly they're saying scrub it and remove the source of moisture.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
>>From the official websites, I'm getting the feeling that bleach isn't the 'cure all', but none of them are saying NOT to use it. Mostly they're saying scrub it and remove the source of moisture.I suspect, but don't know for sure, that the "don't use aerosolized biocides" is code for "don't use bleach (at least in spray bottles)" but the EPA didn't want the American Association of Bleach Producers to jam its inbox with protests.Having followed the issue fairly closely for 10-15 years or so, early on, following the beginnings of the mold scare days, sites such as the EPA's and the NYC something or other department of redundancy department recommended bleach. (They were the first two gov agencies to give out specific information)Soon, though, that recommendation was silently dropped from those sites.Others continue to recommend it's useMy opinion, as an interested follower over the years, is bleach doesn't add much if anything to the remediation process, and the risks from inhaling it as a spray or concentrated fumes (slight as they may be) probably outweighs any benefits.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
I'm sorry, but a quick look at the two websites indicate to me that neither site should be considered a good source of unbiased information. Both seem to written to support the claim that mold needs to be addressed by "professionals" using a special product. The first site has a long list of testimonials that the mold returned even after the affected area was cleaned with bleach. That's no surprise if underlying cause of the mold wasn't addressed before the cleaning took place. Googling "mold and bleach" gives results that appear to indicate that the majority of sites that say don't use bleach belong to organizations or people with a financial stake in mold remdiation. That doesn't make them wrong, but you've got to be suspect that some of them may not be completely unbiased.
On the other hand, I'm not surprised that an independent lab would find that bleach is ineffective in treating mold on wood, since the mold is likely to be in the pores of the wood, and bleach won't readily penetrate. Bleach has been shown in a number of studies to be effective at killing mold on hard surfaces.
On the other hand, as has been stated, bleach is probably not necessary. A thorough cleaning with a detergent is likely to remove the mold from most household surfaces. Keeping it gone is matter of dealing with moisture.
I haven't read anything yet, (including in all those PDF's) that has convinced me that using bleach is wrong.There are better products, yes. But those products are even more toxic than bleach.And as several have already pointed out, the 'studies' that are documented are hardly fair studies at all.I am rebuilding a 5th wheel RV right now. I have a LOT of mold and mildew to deal with. Along with rot, and biological contaminants that came from the black tank and mixed with the water that filled this trailer when it was flooded.I bought both, several gallons of bleach, and a gallon and a half of lysol.In the time I have had to think about what I am doing, while I have been doing the rough cleaning, and trying to build a roof over the thing... I have decided not to use the bleach. My reason for that is mostly what RJW pointed out... I have done this sort of thing before, in an rv, and nearly killed myself with the fumes from the bleach. (And yes, I had adequate ventilation. An entire wall of the trailer was missing. If that isn't adequate, what is ?) I do not care to relive that experience.But my reason for -accepting- that as a good enough reason not to use the bleach, is that I have read a lot here and elsewhere about remediation of the problems I am faced with... and decided on my own that bleach simply does not do a good enough job, nor does it add enough benefit after a good scrubdown... to be worth the toxic problems it, itself poses.Now, having said all that...What does everyone here think of just the lysol and a good scrubdown ?I -could- do the scrubdown twice, and add borax to the second scrubdown...
Everybody is born a hero.
>>I haven't read anything yet, (including in all those PDF's) that has convinced me that using bleach is wrong.I don't think anyone is saying it is, per se, wrong.Bleach alone is insufficient: mold remediation needs elbow grease and scrubbing. Bleach will kill active mold "stuff" but not the spores.After a good cleaning, there shouldn't be any active mold blooms (right word? -- as opposed to spores) which need to be kille (and the spores will be scrubbed off.)So, from what I've read over the years, bleach just isn't the right approach.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
"I don't think anyone is saying it is, per se, wrong."Then why say do not use it?
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>>Then why say do not use it?Because of likely commercial pressure/responsesSeveral years ago, the EPA site had a recommendation not to install carpet in basements. I don't know how long it was up, but it disappeared within days of when I ran across it.I believe it far more likely than not that the carpet manufacturers associations got on the phone.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
That was just plain idiotic -- probably millions of homes have carpet in the basement with no problems.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
>> >>Several years ago, the EPA site had a recommendation not to install carpet in basements. I don't know how long it was up, but it disappeared within days of when I ran across it.>>That was just plain idiotic -- probably millions of homes have carpet in the basement with no problems.In my experience, basements with carpeting are far more likely to have musty mildewy smells.I wouldn't put it in my basement, even if dry, without something to raise it above the slab.BTW: Millions of folks smoke without getting lung cancer
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
I'm sure it (the carpet issue, not smoking) depends a lot on the area, soil conditions, and weather, plus construction techniques. In many parts of the country the natural water table is low enough that there's not a significant moisture drive through the concrete, and mold in the basement is far less likely to be a problem than, say, mold behind a less than well made shower.This is especially true if the basement is fully heated/ACed/ventillated, so that stagnant air isn't an issue.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I'm sorry that you're sorry .... the Trask Research people were extremely professional and helpful in providing a product (Impact - DBAC) and a methodology (wet fogging) that was as efficacious at killing mold in our house as hiring a professional (IMO).
Like many issues on this site 'finding out what the professionals are doing and doing it' is a reasonable mantra to have. After using the fogger, I can say that there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that I could have even applied a bleach solution to construction in the manner that the fogger applied DBAC.
Do whatever you like - but it seems pretty well established that bleach isn't the way to go, especially with porous construction surfaces (ie most of them).
Jeff
Can you say more about this fogging? What is it? Who does it? What chemical is used? How disruptive is it if there are residents? or is it for a full gut job only?
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Fogging example:A crawl space foundation remains open to the weather and the slab is covered by water from the weather several times. Pumped out via sump and/or construction pump. Dead leaves blow into the crawl space, carrying mold spores. Crawl space may be swept out or blown out (at best) - mold spores remain.
Materials are delivered from the lumber yard - they have been exposed to varying degrees of moisture and mold spores themselves. Visible mold may already be present on joists, depending upon care of lumber yard. Floor is framed with I-joists and decked. There is a lot of rough-surfaced building material involved, and a lot with glues, etc. involved with engineered lumber. Underside of deck construction becomes a petri dish for mold spores. Open to the weather for awhile, the deck becomes saturated and dries out several times. Mold begins to grow underneath the deck on rough surfaces, with moisture provided by rain water saturating the deck until dried in.
After drying-in, mold continues to reproduce.
In this example, the underside of the deck, with significant mold growing, has to be fogged using a cold-fogging machine in order to fully-saturate building materials with biocide (fungicide). The fogger is run for 15 minutes for each +/- 225 sf area of deck and significant care must be used in entering any fogged areas (tyvek suit and full-face P-100) until dissipated.
I ran the fogger on a old darkroom (countdown) timer which cuts power after a settable period of time (15 minutes) to shut the fogger down.
http://traskresearch.com/mold_fogger.htm
Jeff
Edited 11/27/2007 7:17 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
" significant care must be used in entering any fogged areas (tyvek suit and full-face N-100) "So it is NOT something that can be used for a residential area with people in it, making it improper for this application at hand.Good to have the info for future ref in situations like you describethough. I'll have to look later aatt he website to study more ands see what kind of chemical the biocide is.
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<sigh> no, you wouldn't fog while people are in the structure. However the fungicide can be used in liquid form application for the OPs situation.
Boracare products are for decay fungi only (rot) and the suggestion that it be used for mold violates Federal law
Now you really have meconfused. It is sold to prevent the spread of decay organisms. What federal law is that?
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You kow me as a former stockbroker, etc. But before and within the time spent there, I figger I've got somewhere around 38 years involved with the clinical lab and food service issues.
The professionals there would laugh at the statement that bleach is not effective against mold. I'm not talking line workers. I'm talking the PhD's.
However, they will emphasize that excessive concentrations of bleach (over 10%) are harmful and not advised.
And that clinical lab experience taught me to discount many claims until thoroughly proven by multiple peer reviewed analysis. Because these research areas can draw certain people that are, let's say, not appropriate for mainstream living issues.
Many researchers are SO engrossed in making their point that they lose sight of the bigger picture. We must remember that these guys only advance in the world based upon "publications." Their CV's (not resume's) must list numerous authored publications and articles before they can expect reasonable compensation in their careers. Therefore, some go way off on tangents attempting to find some bit of data to further their quest for another publication or to "prove" their point.
Some of the clowns I met would be better off working for painters than in some lab testing theories. And these bozos would think their excretment wouldn't stink because of The Paper they just published.
Sorry to disagree with Jeff, but bleach is very effective. And I would agree with the statement, "But not on wood."
Well, thank you all!
This is part of what I love about learning here at BT!I now can't help but think that this is one where the original poster might be feeling like they opened a proverbial can'o'worms bit off more than they can bait a hook with, and is thinking that after asking what time it is, they have been educated on how to build a clock....Sometimes our cup runneth over here....;)
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Actually the OP received a succint and accurate answer in the first couple of replies.
It was only when someone said: "Why not bleach Jeff? I'm not getting my head around that one"
So who stirred that pot ;o) ???J
I wasn't trying to stir the pot Jeff, I was trying to learn. When somebody comes up with something that sounds off the wall and outside of typical long-standing practices, it is a good idea to learn why and if there is valid reasoning.
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http://www.novaguard.com/fungus.html
>>Don't use bleach>>Bob, why not? I had always thought that was what you were supposed to use? >>Bleach IS recommended as part of the cleanup by the IL Dept of Health:There is no unanimous position on this, but over the years, the expert sites have moved away from recommending bleach, both explicitly and some by implication.Some of the sites stopped mentioning bleach and began recommending against using (if I recall correctly) "aerosolized biocides" -- by which I _think_ they mean bleach in spray bottles.For the most part, they recommend good old scrubbing and elbow grease.If the mold and spores are removed, there's probably no remaining need for bleach, so far as I can see. (I try to stay informed in this area because of my work, but am far from being an expert.)If one has
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
There is no unanimous position on this, but over the years, the expert sites have moved away from recommending bleach, both explicitly and some by implication.
Some of the sites stopped mentioning bleach and began recommending against using (if I recall correctly) "aerosolized biocides" -- by which I _think_ they mean bleach in spray bottles.
For the most part, they recommend good old scrubbing and elbow grease.
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this. Looking at the EPA website, it looks like they are saying the same thing you are:
Basic Mold Cleanup
http://www.epa.gov/mold/moldresources.html#Basic%20Mold%20Cleanup
Cleanup and Biocides Biocides are substances that can destroy living organisms. The use of a chemical or biocide that kills organisms such as mold (chlorine bleach, for example) is not recommended as a routine practice during mold cleanup. There may be instances, however, when professional judgment may indicate its use (for example, when immune-compromised individuals are present). In most cases, it is not possible or desirable to sterilize an area; a background level of mold spores will remain - these spores will not grow if the moisture problem has been resolved
http://www.epa.gov/mold/pdfs/moldguide.pdf
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
i'm with rjw on this,lots of times it's behind wallpaper. i wonder if some of it doen't devolp when the paper is hung, goes up wet with glue and some of the heavier papers you can peel back 3 days later and it's still wet.
are you going to repaper or paint? larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
More like y mildew than mold. Don't go into panic mode yet.
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If you've got mold growing on interior and exterior walls you need to kill the mold and you need to stop the moisture. All of this debate about using bleach or not using bleach comes down to this, if you check the EPA site you'll find that bleach is considered to be fine.
Here are some things to think about with respect to mold and remediating it. First, all mold is fungus but not all fungus is mold. Second, mold needs three things in order to grow (1) cellulose (2) moisture (3) heat. Third, some people are sensitive to mycotoxins and killing the mold/fungus does not necessarily stop the emission of mycotoxins. I point out the fungus vs. mold thing just so you'll understand why people are telling you not to panic. I point out the sensitivity issue just in case someone in your household is exibiting sensitivity so you won't waste energy and resources trying to leave drywall in place if you're just going to have to tear it out. Finally, knowing what mold needs to grow will allow you to design your remediation plan.
Cellulose: You will not eliminate cellulose unless you put stone on your walls. Cellulose is in wood (paper) and anything else that is organic.
Moisture: You'll have to investigate the possible sources of moisture. Everything is suspect: plumbing, roofing, flashing, condensation (whether from general use of the home or inadequately vented kitchens, bathrooms, etc.). If you don't stop the moisture, mold will recur.
Heat: Unless you're going to live in a refrigerator there will be enough heat to help mold grow but the warmer the environment, the easier it is for it to grow.
A comment that doesn't fit in the previous categories. It is unclear to me from your post whether you have mold on interior and exterior walls but entirely on interior surfaces or whether you have found mold growing inside of the wall cavities. Mold in the wall cavities is a bigger problem and one for which you may want assistance to remediate.
Finally, if you decide that you need to hire someone to help you remediate the mold/fungus, try not to let them wind you up about how bad it is. Keep in mind that you will never (yes, absolutely never) eliminate all mold from your home. Mold spores are everywhere and I've never seen a structure tested that didn't have some measurable level of most common (toxic) types of mold. Toxicity depends on the amount of mold in the structure, the type of mold and the individual's sensitivity.
I hope this helps and I wish you luck in your hunt for the moisture source.
"if you check the EPA site you'll find that bleach is considered to be fine"
The point of linking to websites is so that people will actually take the time to read the information there.
If you actually do check the EPA site, as directly quoted above, you will find that it clearly states:
The use of a biocide or a chemical that kills organisms such as mold (chlorine bleach, for example) is not recommended as a routine practice during mold cleanup.
Jeff
Oops! Point taken. It has been a few years since I looked at the EPA site regarding mold clean-up and it has changed significantly. It used to recommend against DIY clean-up of an area greater than four square feet, it used to recommend a very diluted bleach solution, wearing a paint respirator and other protective gear, and other details. Now it is far less DIYer friendly and the bleach comment is unclear because it indicates that "professional judgment may indicate" use of bleach. From what I've observed using bleach to clean mold that is on the surface only (not coming through the wall and not in wood) works in most situations and is the least scary for someone looking to do it him/herself.
"Moisture: You'll have to investigate the possible sources of moisture. Everything is suspect: plumbing, roofing, flashing, condensation (whether from general use of the home or inadequately vented kitchens, bathrooms, etc.). If you don't stop the moisture, mold will recur. "Good point to have made there.Going back to my original comment ere - that it is more likely only some mildew staains and not a serious mold invasion.My operating theory here, pending other information following, is that this is mostly just staoining tht happened within a month after the wall paper was hung years ago and that it has not gone further since then. The paper was hung wet, the glue and paper back provided some food,, annd after a while the moisture dried off and the growth quit. There has been no sign of it since then until uncovering what has been there all this time.That is based on what was reported. If the growth goes deeper than that, then they have a larger problem.
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Somehow I missed that nuance in your comments. I concur that this could just be evidence of prior mold growth at a time when there was moisture present and one shouldn't assume that there is active mold growth. If there was active growth they might have seen mold on the surface of the walls rather than just behind the wallpaper (of course it depends on the pattern in the wallpaper) because mold that is growing behind it will sometimes appear as blotchy shadowing for some period of time before it emerges as the fuzzy alien pet on the wall.One thing I forgot to put into my initial treatise: Don't touch it ungloved.
We have mold in a crawl space. It's the white fluffy kind and not the black mold. It's on the floor joists and the plywood subfloor. It's also on the copper water pipes and the sheetmetal ductwork.The house is vacant and it's 20 degrees outside. If we open the foundation vents, turn off the heat, set some fans in the crawl space to get the air circulating.Would the cold air and the 20 degree temp for a week or so have any detrimental impact on the mold & help get rid of it?
Odds are this isn't mold but rather salt deposits.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
(Mold doesn't grow on metal. But condensation will cause corrosion and will cause any minerals in the dust/dirt to collect as salt-like crusts.)
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
>>Would the cold air and the 20 degree temp for a week or so have any detrimental impact on the mold & help get rid of it?No, but it sure won't help the house.Without more, tough to say if it's salts or some sort of fungal growth. Can you post some pics?BTW - the color of mold has little or nothing to do with its properties.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
I don't have any pictures. But the process is as follows on buying a house with mold.On Monday an "Environmental Technician" did an inspection. He diagnosed the condition as "probable mold" and gave an estimate to remediate the mold in the crawl space at a price of $5 to $6 K.He will vacuum the mold and then wipe it down with some type of cleaner.For an extra $500 they will put a high powered dehumidifier in the house to dry out the crawl space.There is an additional fee to clean HVAC ductwork.Apparently you get an official diagnosis by hiring an Industrial Hygienist. This has been scheduled for tomorrow afternoon so we'll se what happens.The Enviro Tech told us an interesting story. A couple bought a brand new home and walked into the front door and smelled mildew. They went to the carpeted basement and pulled up the carpet and baseboard and found mold.The envio tech said that mold is very very common. Another part of their business is to clean all the personal belongings in a house that has been diagnosed with mold. I don't know how that do that, I guess just vacuum and wipe everything down.I'll find out more about this tomorrow.
Edited 12/11/2007 5:19 pm by mrfixitusa
Why don't you ask him about bleach and post the answer here ;o)Jeff
go ahead...
stir the pot...
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You're right ... keep the professionals out of it ;o)Jeff
LOL - just don't stir it too hard and create vapor<G>
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
Will heavy plastic on the ground in the crawl space prevent anyfurther mold from ocuring?
Depends on where the moisture is coming from.But in many (most) cases there is moisture coming from even "dry" ground (desert areas excepted). So plastic over the ground, lapped and sealed is a good start..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yesterday was the Home Inspection and I asked the HI if plastic was needed on the ground in the crawl space and he said yes.Today was the Mold Inspection and I asked him if he recommended plastic on the ground in the crawl space and he said "no".I asked why and he said in the event water were to enter the crawl space it would set on top of the plastic like a swimming pool and mold would likely occur.He indicated plastic gets installed in crawl spaces and problems develop with the seams which are taped together.After a period of time the tape loses it's adhesive quality and water will come up from the ground and through the seam and on top of the plastic.The seam then lays down and closes with the water weight and the water sets on top of the plastic like a swimming pool.I highly respect both of these guys - the HI is an older guy who was a contractor who built homes for many years. He has an excellent repThe mold guy is a young guy but he's pretty sharp and seems to be on top of things.The mold guy has a pretty good gig. My Buyer paid him $250 to spend 30 minutes at the home looking at mold with a flashlight.He'll go back to his office, write a report, and go to the next one.I noticed he did have a good knowledge of contruction and the structure of the home and that surprised me. I guess I wasn't expecting that.
They're both *right* but the HI/former GC is going to be right for most crawl spaces - you want a VB. If you can keep the interior RH below 40% it's unlikely that you'll have mold growth. That can be very hard to do with a crawl space open to the earth.
I'd take the occasional 'incursion' over constant high crawl space RH.
Jeff
Edited 12/12/2007 11:08 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
And if the crawl is regularly flooded that problem needs to be fixed.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Absolutely!
Jeff
We had the inspection today and the certified inspector made the official diagnosis the house has mold.I said "let's buy a gallon of clorox bleach and get started cleaning" and he said "no, studies have shown that bleach does not kill mold"I asked what to use and he said "scrub it with TSP"http://search.hardwarestore.com/?query=TSP+CleanerHe said scrub the wood with a brush and TSP to get rid of the mold.He said wear gloves anytime you use the TSP and wear gloves, respirator, and eye protection when you're cleaning mold.
If you did have mold, turning off the heat would do little to control it. Ventillating, to lower the humidity, will help control mold, though.Based on where you say the "mold" is, I'd tend to suspect a water leak from inside (or possibly a spraying leak from below), especially if the symptoms are localized to a certain area. In a more humid climate I'd suspect condensation from running the AC at 60 during the summer.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I wanted to give you a pat on the back and tell you were 100% right when you corrected me and told me that mold does not grow on metal. The certified mold inspector concurred with your statement and said the substance I saw that looks like mold on copper pipes and sheetmetal, is calcium and is NOT mold as I had indicated.I stand corrected.
"It's the white fluffy kind and not the black mold. It's on the floor joists and the plywood subfloor. It's also on the copper water pipes and the sheetmetal ductwork. The house is vacant and it's 20 degrees outside."It's frost.How many people you think are going to bite, before you tell everyone it's just frost ?;o)
I think I used to have a good memory
lol...funny
>>if you check the EPA site you'll find that bleach is considered to be fine. Really? Where did you see that? The only specific EPA reference I can find is:"Cleanup and Biocides"Biocides are substances that can destroy living organisms. The use of a chemical or biocide that kills organisms such as mold (chlorine bleach, for example) is not recommended as a routine practice during mold cleanup."http://www.epa.gov/mold/hiddenmold.html
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=